Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Exercise / Bodybuilding => Topic started by: pioneer on June 19, 2010, 03:36:26 am
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Ok Ive been doing Brazilian jiu jitsu for 6 months and it is very fun and I have no doubt it is at least one of the best martial arts for fighting larger opponents. But Im beginning to think it is not that practical for self defense out in the street. I feel that a striking art would be because you could take on more opponents than 1. What do you guys think is the best practical martial art for self defense? Ive seen pekiti tirsia and krav maga and they look good but is anything better? ???
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Krav maga and those other street martial arts are mostly just "dirty fighting" which is the most effective way to survive a dangerous street encounter. Any striking art, if refined enough, would allow you to probably hurt someone who is going after you before they hurt you, assuming they are not as trained as you. My philosophy is that if you pull a gun on someone, you better use it, and by that I mean if you're doing stuff like krav maga and gouging at people's eyes and groins, you better mess them up and get out of there because once you open that box you could be in trouble. If I was in a self defense situation I would either try to not fight at all or use "clean" techniques that are not lethal or permanently disfiguring. Again my reason is that if some guy came after you and you attacked him in a way that is either lethal or permanently disfiguring, that ratchets up the violence. This is all conjecture on my part as I've never been in a life and death street fight. I've been doing bjj for 3 years though and I like it a lot, and I do a little striking. I guess you could call my striking style muay thai, but I have little official training. Standing grappling would be good I think for self-defense, the ability to keep from being thrown down. If someone grabbed you and you could either push them off or hip toss them you could get away pretty easily.
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I don't know.. Muay Thai is always good. It's so basic, covers all striking. Can't go wrong with learning muay thai for a year or two
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The thing I like about jiu jitsu is that if your fighting 1 person, they're done. I only have 6 months experience and I took down and submitted my 300lb friend (Im only 165). So I feel that its a great art for if ur a smaller dude and taking on a larger opponent. It takes the size factor away.
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I would say pekiti tirsia and krav maga are both top of the foodchain. I would go with pekiti because it's harder to find and more interesting in the long run, I guess. I've done filipino martial arts before and it's a lot of fun.
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Dim Mak, definitely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI
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Dim Mak, definitely.
Hahaha!!!
Dim Mak is the biggest load of shit I've ever seen.
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I wish there were jeet kune do schools around
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A particular style or school is of only minor consequence. What REALLY matters?
1) That the system you study is in concert with the reason you study, and
2) The method (degree of realism) of training.
To expound: You must be certain that your reason for training (sport, self-defense, discipline, etc.) fits with the system you study. Aikido is wonderful - just not for self-defense. Combat sports have a certain degree of real-life applicability, but ground-fighting helps you not at all against a guy with a knife.
The other factor is realism in training. If you are training for sport, you'd best be in the ring a lot. If you are training for self-defense, situation drills at speed (& in proper environment) are crucial.
You mention training for self defense, then I'd suggest a system(s) that addresses all ranges of combat/conflict, as well as H2H, weapons, etc. To leave an element out is to be incomplete and to walk with a false sense of security.
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All true, I do agree that everyone needs to know some ground, but I guess only to get yourself back up to fight again if taken down. In a real street situation, I feel that there is most likely multiple attackers so ground fighting is out of the question, however if they try to take you down, or do, you could at least know some counters or sweeps to get back up. I feel that real street situations require the most effective killing techniques and I am searching for that type of school. I know pekiti around me so I just may go to that as well as BJJ. I have always liked the idea of competing in martial arts as I feel it gives you fighting experience, but does it carry over into the streets? Are real speed techniques as you describe more effective? At the end of the day I dont care about trophies or belts, just as long as if the time arrived Id be able to defend myself and my significant other. After all I lead a busy life in academics and dont really have the time to devote to competing. Any thoughts?
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I think what Raw Kyle said was the best answer.
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why don't you go to some gyms in your area, have a look at how people train and what kind of people train, talk to the trainer etc. I think that will give you more insight than going at it from a purely theoretical angle.
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Ok Ive been doing Brazilian jiu jitsu for 6 months and it is very fun and I have no doubt it is at least one of the best martial arts for fighting larger opponents. But Im beginning to think it is not that practical for self defense out in the street. I feel that a striking art would be because you could take on more opponents than 1. What do you guys think is the best practical martial art for self defense? Ive seen pekiti tirsia and krav maga and they look good but is anything better? ???
i would start by running. running, not jogging. that means a program based on sprints. for example you sprint about 2 - 3 blocks, then walk to catch your breath then sprint again etc. i have to say though that training this way has caused one of my worst injuries that never healed - a torn hamstring, so be sure to start out by sprinting at MUCH less than full intensity.
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Run barefoot.
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All true, I do agree that everyone needs to know some ground, but I guess only to get yourself back up to fight again if taken down. In a real street situation, I feel that there is most likely multiple attackers so ground fighting is out of the question, however if they try to take you down, or do, you could at least know some counters or sweeps to get back up. I feel that real street situations require the most effective killing techniques and I am searching for that type of school. I know pekiti around me so I just may go to that as well as BJJ. I have always liked the idea of competing in martial arts as I feel it gives you fighting experience, but does it carry over into the streets? Are real speed techniques as you describe more effective? At the end of the day I dont care about trophies or belts, just as long as if the time arrived Id be able to defend myself and my significant other. After all I lead a busy life in academics and dont really have the time to devote to competing. Any thoughts?
Pekiti Tirsia is pretty cool (as is Kali in general), but again, it depends on who is teaching and what their training methods are.
Does sport & sparring & such carry over to real-life application? Of course. There are things that you learn training at speed that you can never get training in slow motion. Such attributes include distancing, timing, and the like. Are "real speed techniques" more effective? It isn't the technique that differs, it's the real speed application. A jab is a jab, but throwing it with zero resistance (like in a kata) or slowed down (like in slow motion walk thru) or at speed but in a rehearsed sequence (zero spontaneity) is not the same as strapping on minimal protective gear and trying it out.
Similarly, too much protective gear shields on WAY too much from true responses. The Pekiti Tirsia practitioner, for example, who gears up and uses uber-thin rattan is not going to understand hitting or getting hit as well as the guy who gives & takes some real shots with a bigger stick and little gear.
Recovery time is more important than textbook perfect technique. You WILL get hit in many "real life" situations. You'll experience this with no protective gear and no ref and no rules. If you've never been hit before, you will experience this new sensation in a dangerous environment that refuses to comply with someone's speculation. Wouldn't you rather get as close to the real as possible, then, prior to a real event?
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Yes I would and I have done boxing before and know what its like to get hit in the face- light headedness and tearing of the eyes. I guess after being hit, you disregard the pain and keep going, also adrenaline and norepinephrine kicks in masking the pain.
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I guess after being hit, you disregard the pain and keep going, also adrenaline and norepinephrine kicks in masking the pain.
Yes, for those who have experienced it. For those who haven;t, panic often sets in and their recovery time is too slow.
Also worth remembering is that the bad guy also has adrenaline & such pumping thru his system.
You mentioned Pekita Tirsia. Most of this video is exactly the problem I see with most training. It's a good start, but notice there is NO true sparring (although the firearm use at the end demonstrates that at least they are well-rounded). Lacking application that is extremely close to the edge does potential damage because one can't see what certain concepts, footwork, techniques, and the like truly net.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujN0-edyLs0
By contrast, despite certain critiques of their focus on sticks (hey, it's still based on Pekiti Tirsia, so what would we expect?), these guys get attributes training (speed, distance, timing, etc.) like few others can boast. Due to that, they are able to weed out that which has no practical value and build on what is immediately effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Zuj5jdY-k
I might add that the Dog Brothers also delved deeply into BJJ via the Machado Brothers as well as other systems (Muay Thai, Bando, etc.).
There are examples that one could give from systems other than Pekiti Tirsia (or other FMA), of course. Both eastern (systems from Asia, India, etc.) & western (boxing, pancrase, wrestling, fencing, etc.) forms have their traditionalists as well as those smaller groups interested almost totally in real-world application.
If your interest is real-world application, my advice is to seek them out. If their sparring has lots of rules, lots of protection, and only happens rarely, that's not a good sign. If, on the other hand, they utilize light sparring, heavy sparring, isolation drills, and the like to a high degree, then that's a very good sign.
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One thing to consider though, is the risk of permanent injury. DBMA style fighting is dangerous... Broken hands, kneecaps, shit happens. And I'm not sure if it's the best way of training for street self defense. Sure, sparring, getting hit etc. is an essential experience but in sparring you have the back-and-forth manouvers, faints etc. whereas in street, you just go out to get it over with asap. Maybe one faint, but then you go for it. From what I've seen the krav maga people have excellent exercises to get into such a mindset, but of course it depends on the instructor etc., most customers don't like getting hurt and exhausted that much. One thing I see a bit lacking is technique / strength development. I'd think boxing or muay thai combined with krav maga would be a very effective approach. But then, who has time to train two martial arts.
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One thing to consider though, is the risk of permanent injury. DBMA style fighting is dangerous...
Good point.
However, you can always use measure not quite so close, combined with getting real close only once in a blue moon. For example, when training with knives, most people just don't have a clue how easy it is to get cut and how bad a quick slice can be. I'm not a big fan of Paul Vunak, but this is an excellent wake-up call:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqy95dWUFO8
He also had his students training with felt-tip markers to understand how hard it is NOT to get cut in a free exchange that lasts only a few seconds.
Another example is Dan Inosanto's use of rolled newspaper instead of sticks. You roll the paper, then duct tape it into stick shape. Still strong enough to break the small bones of your hand, but not as bad as rattan or oak (hahaha!).
Another example is short duration situation drills used by wrestlers and others. You know the technique you intend to use but your opponent does not, start in a good opening position, and "spar" for 8 seconds or less to see if you can apply the technique.
Another example of the short duration situation drill is for strikers to put on gloves & head-gear and then have only 5 seconds to deliver their awesome one-punch knockout blow. They usually find out it's not so simple as in a kata or traditional drill because the other guy isn't standing their acting as your human target. He's both moving AND trying to hit you back.
I recall sparring a karate guy years ago who kept getting frustrated by a simple jab. Blew all of his techniques. You don't see that so much now due to UFC & the Gracie legacy, which (along with Bruce Lee) generated a huge amount of cross-pollenization in MA, but the point is it takes close to the edge practitioners (like the Gracies, Dog Brothers, and others) to show BS for what it is so that we train with a sense of reality instead of theory & a false sense of security.
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The video... There are some photos under "knife fight" on rotten.com I hope I won't ever have to be in one... -v
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Gruesome....
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I can't say I've ever found a single martial style that struck me as practical in street situations. The things I look for in a practical style include emphases on (no particular order):
1. Balance and body alignment
2. Aerobic and anaerobic fitness
3. Strength and flexibility training
4. Striking
5. Grappling
6. Weapons (knives, sticks, guns, everything else...)
7. Using one's surroundings for tactical advantage
8. Sensitivity training, so you can avoid dangerous situations before they emerge
9. Sparring
I've trained in ninjutsu (Bujinkan), Brazilian Jujitsu, Japanese Jujutsu, Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan. All have useful elements, but none is practical by itself. I've watched a few Crav Maga videos, and I'd love to find an instructor nearby.
Regarding the knife video and photos, yeah, knife fighting can be nasty. My training partner and I do some of our training with live (sharp) knives and swords (he still likes training with traditional Japanese weapons sometimes, so we both bought higher-end katanas). Not only does a sharp, steel knife feel different in your hand, the level of intensity when training with them is orders of magnitude higher than with wood or plastic knives. You can learn all the fancy techniques you want, but if you lose it when you see real steel then, well, you've lost it...
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Well said, Eric.
We used to do a lot of live blade knife stuff (primarily for blade handling) and blunt-edge metal blades for sparring (ouch), coupled with many of the other things I mentioned (markers, rolled paper, etc.). Can't say I've used live swords (except for fencing style blades and old Celtic style). Sounds like fun!
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Yeah, K and I sometimes use blunted steel blades for sparring, but I have to say the feeling is completely different, and much more mundane than having someone rush you with sharp steel. Part of martial training is technical--timing, distancing, angle, techniques--but the longer I train the more I've come to believe that sensitivity and focus are even more important. (Add focus to the list I mentioned earlier, can't believe I left that off).
Most people have never been attacked by someone who has killing intent, so when this happens, even if the person is a complete klutz and you've been training for ages, it can throw you off. One of the aspects K and I have been working on for the past six months or so is to desensitize ourselves to this killing intent so that we can stay calm and focused. It's tough, of course, because we really don't want to kill each other, but we have to do our best at acting because we want each other to be ready.
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The video... There are some photos under "knife fight" on rotten.com I hope I won't ever have to be in one... -v
Why the fuck would anyone go on that site? Sacred Blue, that's fucking horrible. Not the knife one, that's interesting, but... the other stuff... there.. omg.
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is there any way to learn martial arts without risking aggravating my already in piss-poor shape rotator cuffs ?
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Isn't it your pro-inflammatory diet which is preventing your rotator-cuffs from recovering? Not that I know what your diet is, but I'd think that'd be the problem..
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What I think helps with the focus is every once and a while get in a real fistfight with a friend just to get used to being hit. Then if you get hit in the street it wouldnt even throw you off. It works for me, as a matter of fact, I can contribute much of my confidence to not caring about being hit.