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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Info / News Items / Announcements => Topic started by: Satya on August 07, 2008, 11:43:55 pm

Title: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Satya on August 07, 2008, 11:43:55 pm
Dairy is quite the controversial subject in the RVAF/RAF communities.  I think that it is safe to say that dairy is definitely a Neolithic food.  It can cause problems in many people, raw or not.  For instance, I get very paste-like stools when I consume any dairy.  My son breaks out in zits/spots when he consumes it.  (And in fact, he is more adamant about avoiding now than I am ... me liking a nibble of cheese from time to time).

I am looking for information about the dangers of dairy.  I know that type I diabetes has been linked to dairy consumption.  I think Chrohn's disease has too.  Any scientific studies or other articles on the problems with raw and pasteurized dairy would be most appreciated.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Raw Kyle on August 08, 2008, 12:15:31 am
Check out Tyler's thread in the moderators forum, he's got tons of information.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on August 08, 2008, 12:35:16 am
We do need more data, though, in order to complete the article - plus, anecdotal reports from RAFers, along with more scientific studies would help flesh out the article further.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 08, 2008, 05:53:35 am
Dairy is quite the controversial subject in the RVAF/RAF communities.  I think that it is safe to say that dairy is definitely a Neolithic food.  It can cause problems in many people, raw or not.  For instance, I get very paste-like stools when I consume any dairy.  My son breaks out in zits/spots when he consumes it.  (And in fact, he is more adamant about avoiding now than I am ... me liking a nibble of cheese from time to time).

I am looking for information about the dangers of dairy.  I know that type I diabetes has been linked to dairy consumption.  I think Chrohn's disease has too.  Any scientific studies or other articles on the problems with raw and pasteurized dairy would be most appreciated.

Thanks.

I would also like to see a study that explains why some have such bad reactions to dairy and others thrive on it. I don't think it's simply bad for everyone. One can drink too much of it and develop some problems, of course, but that's with almost any food. In moderation, some folks do very well with raw dairy especially fermented dairy.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on August 08, 2008, 06:37:22 am
I disagree. Judging from anecdotal reports from USers who regularly visit Primal Dieters and other RAFers(who eat the most dairy) , it's been reported that those with no dairy-consumption, such as Instinctos, actually appear much healthier, in general. Also, there's a HUGE amount of self-deception involved. A very large number of raw-dairy-consumers are honestly convinced that being overweight and bloated  is somehow  a "good thing" or that being in a state of continuous so-called detox is somehow healthy. Plus, there are certain long-term deleterious effects which do turn up later in old age, as a result of incorporating dairy, raw or otherwise, such as increased dementia in the elderly and parkinsons' disease etc. etc.  I don't doubt that some may have adaptation to some extent resulting in minor benefits, but I suspect that, in the long-term, this adaptation is not worth it, given the extra complications.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 08, 2008, 06:58:05 am
Well, you've definitely done your homework so I won't try to argue with you. Although I still believe there's no danger in eating small amounts of fermented dairy for those who posses that genetic adaption. I also suspect there are plenty of raw (fermented)dairy consumers who've grown to be quite old without developing dementia, osteoporosis, parkinson's or whatever. If I come across a scientific study confirming this, you'll be the first to know. ;)
  Nevertheless, milk can't shake a stick at good old organ meats and animal fat. I don't need to tell you that, of course.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Satya on August 08, 2008, 08:41:30 pm
I would also like to see a study that explains why some have such bad reactions to dairy and others thrive on it. I don't think it's simply bad for everyone. One can drink too much of it and develop some problems, of course, but that's with almost any food. In moderation, some folks do very well with raw dairy especially fermented dairy.

I suppose the question is: Are people thriving because of raw dairy, or inspite of it?  And really, what is a moderate consumption?  These are important questions.  Let's take a look at what dairy is: It is a product of lactation meant for the offspring of the animal for whom it is intended.  Now that is neither good nor bad, as many animals will exploit the offspring of a species (though never by suckling off of the mother that I am aware).  My point is that it requires the animal to be pregnant or nursing its young.  Do you think that forcing an animal to be pregnant all the time will be healthy for it or the consumer of its products?  Dairying is simply not sustainable for regular use in people.  I suppose the Masai could prove me wrong:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price9.html

Milk has many hormones and growth factors, like estrogen and IgF1, which are really bad news for people.  Mammary glands do hold great iodine strores, on the up side; but that is good for the mammary glands and can hold disease down, so lactation will strip stores over time.  On the downside, humans stop producing rennin to digest milk (um, and that is species' specific milk from the mother that is the proper food to digest as a child) after about age 12 unless the onslought of milk continues (probably a cow or goat product, generally).  Thus, I think it is a highly unnatural foodstuff for humans for many reasons.  The rare treat of some cheese or yogurt might actually be tolerated okay, but regular consumption is not that easy in the "natural" world, nor is it a good staple.

As a woman who lactated off and on for 4.5 years, I can tell you it is very demanding on the body from a nutritional/energy standpoint.  I can feel for the poor dairy animals.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Satya on August 08, 2008, 08:54:05 pm
BTW, I do appreciate the discussion, and it is partly for an article we are producing for rawpaleo.com that I brought it up.  Debate on the subject is most welcome, and the ongoing ideas really will 1) get me in the mood to add to and edit Tyler's extensive ideas and references on dairy dangers, and 2) help us to make sure we have covered all angles concerning dairy.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 09, 2008, 06:50:07 am
I suppose the question is: Are people thriving because of raw dairy, or inspite of it?  And really, what is a moderate consumption?  These are important questions.  Let's take a look at what dairy is: It is a product of lactation meant for the offspring of the animal for whom it is intended.  Now that is neither good nor bad, as many animals will exploit the offspring of a species (though never by suckling off of the mother that I am aware).  My point is that it requires the animal to be pregnant or nursing its young.  Do you think that forcing an animal to be pregnant all the time will be healthy for it or the consumer of its products?  Dairying is simply not sustainable for regular use in people.  I suppose the Masai could prove me wrong:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price9.html

Milk has many hormones and growth factors, like estrogen and IgF1, which are really bad news for people.  Mammary glands do hold great iodine strores, on the up side; but that is good for the mammary glands and can hold disease down, so lactation will strip stores over time.  On the downside, humans stop producing rennin to digest milk (um, and that is species' specific milk from the mother that is the proper food to digest as a child) after about age 12 unless the onslought of milk continues (probably a cow or goat product, generally).  Thus, I think it is a highly unnatural foodstuff for humans for many reasons.  The rare treat of some cheese or yogurt might actually be tolerated okay, but regular consumption is not that easy in the "natural" world, nor is it a good staple.

As a woman who lactated off and on for 4.5 years, I can tell you it is very demanding on the body from a nutritional/energy standpoint.  I can feel for the poor dairy animals.


I would say in spite of it. I don't view dairy the same way I do meat and animal fat. Of course, moderate consumption is highly individual and I've already read about the Masai and other cultures discussed in Dr. Price's book. That's why I'm skeptical about raw dairy being deleterious to all humans. I just don't believe that is consistent with reality.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: PaleoKyle on August 09, 2008, 07:19:35 am
One thing I do notice from being around so many WAPF members/followers is that dairy is #1. That is not what I derived from his book. I think the whole legal issue has a play too in people consuming so much dairy. I bet if the raw dairy was at the store or the market it would not be consumed so much. People also view raw dairy as a curative....so I guess the more the merry  :-\

My experience with raw milk:
I was underweight and sick when I began drinking raw milk, cream, and cultured cream. It took me to a normal weight. Once I maintained a steady weight I began to feel heavy and tired and would get daily nose bleeds. After a week off dairy I was feeling back to normal again.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: PaleoKyle on August 09, 2008, 07:26:31 am

I would say in spite of it. I don't view dairy the same way I do meat and animal fat. Of course, moderate consumption is highly individual and I've already read about the Masai and other cultures discussed in Dr. Price's book. That's why I'm skeptical about raw dairy being deleterious to all humans. I just don't believe that is consistent with reality.

Most of the healty tribes also consumed grains like rye. They ate bread and cooked food..........
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 09, 2008, 10:36:34 am
Most of the healty tribes also consumed grains like rye. They ate bread and cooked food..........


They also never had to recover from years of eating trash. All ate raw as well as cooked animal food and most of them ate dairy.  The only degenerative illnesses reported were from those who decided to eat sugar and white flour. "White man's food." Ugh. Sugar. Deliciously disgusting.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on August 09, 2008, 06:12:52 pm
I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Secondly, I found that his observation re the supposed good health of the Maori, prior to eating Western foods, was a complete fabrication. According to modern historians of the Maori(who've unlike Price checked the ancient Maori skeletons for evidence of malnutrition etc.), the Maoris,up to Captain Cook's time  were on a reasonably unhealthy diet consisting of grains such as manioc , but also, fortunately,  heavily supplemented by seafood - at the time, they were not in the best of health(dying very young at age 25 due to warfare, poor-quality foods or starvation due to insufficient foods etc.). Then the British came in 1840 and forced the Maoris into ever smaller areas (of swampland) where animal food was almost nonexistent, and where they were forced to depend on a diet consisting almost wholly of grains. The result was that huge numbers of Maori died like flies up until 1900, when their populations started finally  to recover. 1900 was also about the time that the Maori switched over to modern, Western, refined-food diets:-

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1102

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1107

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on August 09, 2008, 06:45:04 pm
The big problem with raw dairy is that it's the easiest raw animal food to get used to - the result is that people prefer it to the taste of healthier raw animal foods such as muscle-meat - plus they overindulge in dairy due to the highly addictive opioid hormones in the stuff. But there are huge numbers of people who admit to experiencing slight health problems even when they consume dairy in smaller quantities, so it's not just a question of overindulgence.

Another problem is that dairy seems to lead to water-retention, at least that's my own explanation for why it's so good at increasing peoples' weight on a RAF diet.

Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 09, 2008, 08:26:59 pm
I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Secondly, I found that his observation re the supposed good health of the Maori, prior to eating Western foods, was a complete fabrication. According to modern historians of the Maori(who've unlike Price checked the ancient Maori skeletons for evidence of malnutrition etc.), the Maoris,up to Captain Cook's time  were on a reasonably unhealthy diet consisting of grains such as manioc , but also, fortunately,  heavily supplemented by seafood - at the time, they were not in the best of health(dying very young at age 25 due to warfare, poor-quality foods or starvation due to insufficient foods etc.). Then the British came in 1840 and forced the Maoris into ever smaller areas (of swampland) where animal food was almost nonexistent, and where they were forced to depend on a diet consisting almost wholly of grains. The result was that huge numbers of Maori died like flies up until 1900, when their populations started finally  to recover. 1900 was also about the time that the Maori switched over to modern, Western, refined-food diets:-

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1102

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1107

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.

What do you think Dr. Price's motives were in fabricating evidence of healthy tribes?
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 09, 2008, 08:33:03 pm
I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Secondly, I found that his observation re the supposed good health of the Maori, prior to eating Western foods, was a complete fabrication. According to modern historians of the Maori(who've unlike Price checked the ancient Maori skeletons for evidence of malnutrition etc.), the Maoris,up to Captain Cook's time  were on a reasonably unhealthy diet consisting of grains such as manioc , but also, fortunately,  heavily supplemented by seafood - at the time, they were not in the best of health(dying very young at age 25 due to warfare, poor-quality foods or starvation due to insufficient foods etc.). Then the British came in 1840 and forced the Maoris into ever smaller areas (of swampland) where animal food was almost nonexistent, and where they were forced to depend on a diet consisting almost wholly of grains. The result was that huge numbers of Maori died like flies up until 1900, when their populations started finally  to recover. 1900 was also about the time that the Maori switched over to modern, Western, refined-food diets:-

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1102

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/message/1107

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.

Sounds to me that the main culprit here is grains not dairy. Due to this post, I think we can both agree on that. No?
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 09, 2008, 08:51:27 pm
The big problem with raw dairy is that it's the easiest raw animal food to get used to - the result is that people prefer it to the taste of healthier raw animal foods such as muscle-meat - plus they overindulge in dairy due to the highly addictive opioid hormones in the stuff. But there are huge numbers of people who admit to experiencing slight health problems even when they consume dairy in smaller quantities, so it's not just a question of overindulgence.

Another problem is that dairy seems to lead to water-retention, at least that's my own explanation for why it's so good at increasing peoples' weight on a RAF diet.



I agree that milk is addictive. I've found myself lovin' it a bit too much in the past. However, even during my love affair with it I didn't have any water retention. I still remained trim and fit. Although that may have been due to the grueling work in the Louisiana Summer I was doing on the organic farm at the time which was where I was buying my goat milk. As you have mentioned, this may have offset negative side effects of the daily kefir I was drinking. I think I was downing about 2 gallons of goat milk a week at that time but still felt great. I was a hard core Weston Price dieter. I think the diet appealed to me so much because it was such a huge upgrade from the SAD crap I was mindlessly chowing on and the subsequent afflictions it causes in some folks with certain genetic predispositions. So any improvement would have been a god send at that time. Today, the RPD trumps them all.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on August 09, 2008, 09:43:47 pm
What do you think Dr. Price's motives were in fabricating evidence of healthy tribes?
I don't think that Price ever intentionally fabricated evidence. I just think he was enthused by Rousseau's idea of "The Noble Savage"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

and ended up cherry-picking his data/photographic evidence to support his claims, while ignoring any evidence which contradicted his claims - not so much fraud as bias. For example, there was often a very high infant-mortality-rate in many such primitive cultures, and also, of course, such societies did not have the luxury of being able to support chronically ill folks etc., so that those tended to die early on, leaving only the relatively healthy to survive. Plus, as I said earlier, much higher levels of daily exercise would have made an enormous difference.

Sounds to me that the main culprit here is grains not dairy. Due to this post, I think we can both agree on that. No?

Absolutely. The Maori didn't touch dairy until the 20th century. But Price did point to various populations which ate grain as being supposedly healthy(the Swiss and the Scots?), of which I have my doubts. Of course, this is all a matter of degree, I suppose. I'm sure that the Swiss montain-folk  and the Highland Scots of the 1930s were a hell of a lot healthier than some of the urban slum populations of the era - I just don't see them as being at the peak of health, though, that's all.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 09, 2008, 09:58:16 pm
I don't think that Price ever intentionally fabricated evidence. I just think he was enthused by Rousseau's idea of "The Noble Savage"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

and ended up cherry-picking his data/photographic evidence to support his claims, while ignoring any evidence which contradicted his claims - not so much fraud as bias. For example, there was often a very high infant-mortality-rate in many such primitive cultures, and also, of course, such societies did not have the luxury of being able to support chronically ill folks etc., so that those tended to die early on, leaving only the relatively healthy to survive. Plus, as I said earlier, much higher levels of daily exercise would have made an enormous difference.

Absolutely. The Maori didn't touch dairy until the 20th century. But Price did point to various populations which ate grain as being supposedly healthy(the Swiss and the Scots?), of which I have my doubts. Of course, this is all a matter of degree, I suppose. I'm sure that the Swiss montain-folk  and the Highland Scots of the 1930s were a hell of a lot healthier than some of the urban slum populations of the era - I just don't see them as being at the peak of health, though, that's all.

Do you think you've reached the peak of health or will ever reach the peak of health? I'm so fascinated with that concept. To be able experience life with truly radiant health.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Satya on August 09, 2008, 09:59:55 pm
One thing I do notice from being around so many WAPF members/followers is that dairy is #1. That is not what I derived from his book. I think the whole legal issue has a play too in people consuming so much dairy. I bet if the raw dairy was at the store or the market it would not be consumed so much. People also view raw dairy as a curative....so I guess the more the merry  :-\

Yes, this is my experience as a former member of WAPF.  And remember, only 2 of Price's natives - the Swiss and the Masai - consumed ANY dairy!  So yes, they have strayed far from the book.  Let's face it, Sally Fallon & Co. are big on raw dairy and also wheat (and don't even get me started on all the "healthy sugars").  I imagine it's an opioid thing.  Oh, and only the Swiss consumed a grain with gluten - rye.  Yet many other groups did eat grains, it is true.


My experience with raw milk:
I was underweight and sick when I began drinking raw milk, cream, and cultured cream. It took me to a normal weight. Once I maintained a steady weight I began to feel heavy and tired and would get daily nose bleeds. After a week off dairy I was feeling back to normal again.

Has anyone gained weight without dairy on an raf diet?  I have seen this before in men wanting to gain - they go for the dairy. 
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: PaleoKyle on August 09, 2008, 10:18:29 pm
Has anyone gained weight without dairy on an raf diet?  I have seen this before in men wanting to gain - they go for the dairy. 

I can't gain weight on the raf diet, but after I quit dairy I lost a little weight. Even after losing the dairy weight I did not go back to my previous weight.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: boxcarguy07 on August 09, 2008, 10:20:41 pm
Has anyone gained weight without dairy on an raf diet?  I have seen this before in men wanting to gain - they go for the dairy. 

I'm gaining weight without dairy... lol it's not impossible. It's all about calories.
Whole milk is just an easy source for a lot of calories... it's liquid so it's easy to get down a lot of it.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on August 09, 2008, 10:27:15 pm
Do you think you've reached the peak of health or will ever reach the peak of health? I'm so fascinated with that concept. To be able experience life with truly radiant health.

The problem is that for the first 30 years of life I drank pasteurised(and some raw) dairy to which I was allergic. It fouled up my glands etc. While I've recovered from my previous  health-conditions, I don't think I would be "as good/healthy" as if I'd been following a raw palaeolithic diet from birth. To take one example, I'm shorter than almost all  of the male members of my family(most are 6ft 3, I'm 6ft - I'm sure that dairy-consumption and processed foods fouled things up re growth-hormones etc.

There's also another consideration:- there's no way that I could ever  reliably emulate the kind of functional physical strength and endurance that the average Palaeolithic man would have had, given a relatively sedentary urban lifestyle(gym-visits notwithstanding).  Even in more settled, Neolithic times, the average rower could easily outcompete the weightlifting-/supplement-consuming  athletic rowers of today:-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070208100643.htm

http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-news/Fitness-has-fallen-since-the-days-of-Ancient-Greece-5014-1/

http://grhomeboy.wordpress.com/2007/02/10/ancient-greece-athletes-fitter-than-todays/

Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Satya on August 10, 2008, 04:48:04 am
I'm afraid that Weston-Price was particularly dishonest as regards his claims, so one can't trust them too much. First of all, he arbitrarily designated numerous tribes, with very widely differing diets, as being supposedly  all equally healthy. This, in itself, is EXTREMELY unlikely as one would expect such totally different diets to produce quite different results re health.

Well, first off, the guy was a dentist from Ohio.  He was not an anthropologist or an MD.  That said, his book is of value.  The value of his book is that he demonstrated that isolated tribes who had not eaten the "foods of commerce" as he called them, had good teeth and facial structures (things of interest to a dentist).  Those (and their offspring) who indulged in sugar, flour, canned goods and the like suffered from bad teeth and poorly-formed faces.  I think the problem is that people jump from this to say "Oh, the natives were the optimal peoples feeding on the optimal foods."  And he was flat out wrong about some things (read his book to learn more).

Tyler, he has percentages of tooth decay (caries) for each isolated tribe, and if memory serves, the Inuit were the healthiest and the Swiss least so, according to his statistics.  The former ate mostly carnivorous fare with high percentage raw, the latter lived on rye bread and cheese as staples.  It should be also noted that the Inuit have close to the stature and brain case size of Paleolithic peoples, something I think that Weston Price, DDS failed to note (again, he was not an expert on the human body). 

I do concede that native tribes were much fitter than modern settled peoples, due to doing greater amounts of daily exercise, and that could offset the negative effects of a dairy-/grain-filled diet to some extent. But I rather doubt that they had the kind of health that Palaeo peoples had.

Yes, the traditional cultures were healthier than the industrialized folks, due in part to more exercise, more sunlight, less stress, etc..  But we can't look at the Paleolithic hunter-gatherers except in skeletal remains for comparison.

Finally, I will say that Weston Price dubiously reported that the widening of the upper arch of a "Mongoloid Idiot," aka Down's Syndrome boy of 16, changed his physical state (understandable) and:

"His mental change was even more marked. The space between the maxillary bones was widened about one-half inch in about thirty days. This lateral pressure on the maxillary bones was accomplished by rigid attachments to the teeth of the two sides of the upper arch. The outward movement of the maxillary bones (which form the roof of the mouth and sides of the nose) by pressure on the temporal bones produced a tension downward on the floor of the anterior part of the brain, thus stimulating the pituitary gland in the base of the brain. In a few weeks' time he passed through stages that usually take several years. At first, he got behind the door to frighten us; later, he put bent pins on chairs to see us jump when we sat down, and finally he became the cause of a policeman's coming to the office from where he was conducting traffic on the corner below to find who it was squirting water on him when his back was turned. He developed a great fondness for calling people over the telephone, wanted to borrow my automobile to take his mother for a drive, and with his arm caressingly about the shoulders of one of the secretaries, invited her to go with him to a dance. All this change developed in about twelve weeks."

Gee, maybe if it wasn't a chromosomal defect, and maybe if this treatment were now in effect for people with Down's Syndrome, showing remarkable improvements, then I might be able to trust Price's work more.  But alas, he was way out of his league and exaggerated quite a bit in some areas.  His photos are great, and I am pleased he conducted the research he did before industry wiped out so many of these tribes.  But you have to consider all of this when looking at his work.

It should be noted that Sally Fallon, founder and president of the WAPF is an English major.  She is no nutrition/health/human expert either. 

I would highly recommend that everyone keep the guru worship and dietary dogma to a minimum when looking for guidance on health matters.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: stevesurv on August 10, 2008, 05:45:53 am


I would highly recommend that everyone keep the guru worship and dietary dogma to a minimum when looking for guidance on health matters.

"Guru Worship" That's a good one.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: wodgina on August 10, 2008, 09:50:20 am
It seems that high palates are a feature of all these syndromes.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TruthHunter on August 11, 2008, 02:13:25 am
 Compared to pasteurized  homogenized dairy, raw natural dairy is so much of an improvement,  I suspect  it should be encouraged.  Think for a minute at how bad most food is. Any easy improvement is a step in the right direction.  If the dairy industry maintained their cows  in a condition that raw milk could be safe, everyone would be healthier. Goats milk is much better for humans than  cow's milk.

Perhaps it should be sold in silver plated recyclable containers to please germ phobic  regulators.  :)
 
    If you don't digest milk well, you probably aren't adapted to it and should avoid it.  If it doesn't agree with you don't eat it.

Personally, I've never had a chance to try raw milk. When we had goats in my childhood, my mother insisted on pasteurizing it.  I am certainly allergic to normal cow's milk

John
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: rawrock2 on September 15, 2008, 07:23:11 am
Personally, my big thing is if it is natural or not.  I simply look at mother nature.  Humans are the only animal that consumes the milk of other animals.  (to my knowledge)  No other animal does that naturally.  Therefore I think we should be drinking only our own milk.  I was thinking, you know, what if we drank human milk like we drink cow's milk.  Filling up gallon jugs and putting it in the refrigerator for daily consumption as long as it stays fresh.  I mean it's possible, the mammary glands in a woman can continue to produce milk as long as they are stimulated.  (per an article I read about a lady breastfeeding her son for eight years)  Maybe this is what we should be focusing on. 
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: boxcarguy07 on September 15, 2008, 07:42:37 am
I saw a video on Youtube about a mother who still breast-feeds her two daughters even though they're pretty old (I forget the exact ages)
They children looked very healthy and seemed very intelligent.

Ah, found the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B68bt4v4xPg
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Squall on September 15, 2008, 08:30:41 am
I doubt that video will be on You Tube much longer. I'm sure someone with fragile sensibilities will complain to the admins that they were offended by the woman's nipple or something! Yank ...

Concerning Price's book, I was surprised to find that although he was quick to point out that the isolated Inuit were some of the healthiest of the tribes he studied, he seemed to go to great lengths to not point out that they were in fact eating raw. The most he said about their diet was that it included organ meats. The only entry on actual preparation concerned the smoking of wild salmon. In fact, the smoked wild salmon was a recurring feature of the chapter if I recall correctly. I thought that was odd considering that his subjects' diet was so dependent on raw food. Kinda made me feel like there was some bias there; like he didn't actually want to come out and explicitly say: 'These people are healthy, and they eat lots of raw animal fat and meat.'

I also found the Swiss and their peculiar diet of rye and dairy kind of odd. Maybe they were super-adapted to the stuff?
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Raw Kyle on September 20, 2008, 06:49:37 am
Finally, I will say that Weston Price dubiously reported that the widening of the upper arch of a "Mongoloid Idiot," aka Down's Syndrome boy of 16, changed his physical state (understandable) and:

"His mental change was even more marked. The space between the maxillary bones was widened about one-half inch in about thirty days. This lateral pressure on the maxillary bones was accomplished by rigid attachments to the teeth of the two sides of the upper arch. The outward movement of the maxillary bones (which form the roof of the mouth and sides of the nose) by pressure on the temporal bones produced a tension downward on the floor of the anterior part of the brain, thus stimulating the pituitary gland in the base of the brain. In a few weeks' time he passed through stages that usually take several years. At first, he got behind the door to frighten us; later, he put bent pins on chairs to see us jump when we sat down, and finally he became the cause of a policeman's coming to the office from where he was conducting traffic on the corner below to find who it was squirting water on him when his back was turned. He developed a great fondness for calling people over the telephone, wanted to borrow my automobile to take his mother for a drive, and with his arm caressingly about the shoulders of one of the secretaries, invited her to go with him to a dance. All this change developed in about twelve weeks."

Gee, maybe if it wasn't a chromosomal defect, and maybe if this treatment were now in effect for people with Down's Syndrome, showing remarkable improvements, then I might be able to trust Price's work more.  But alas, he was way out of his league and exaggerated quite a bit in some areas.  His photos are great, and I am pleased he conducted the research he did before industry wiped out so many of these tribes.  But you have to consider all of this when looking at his work.

Maybe the chromosomal defect is the arch change which then causes the mental problems?
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: wodgina on September 20, 2008, 07:39:23 am
Cheers for the vid boxcar.

The family seemed really happy and intelligent. It seemed natural to me really and I think she was part Aussie. Wish I was breast fed longer maybe up to like 3 would be ok with me.

I don't know where to look when women pull out their boob and start breast feeding in front of me! i've got a friend and she does it too me all the time! hehe just not used to it. Most women hide away.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: boxcarguy07 on September 20, 2008, 09:10:37 am
Yeah, and what's sad is if you look on the youtube comments that people have left it's full of people saying she's crazy and that the kids need to be taken away and stuff like that. It's just awful.

I think women should be able to breastfeed wherever they damn well please! Of course, I think we should be able to walk around naked too, but that's just me. I will admit it would be pretty shocking to see a woman just start breast feeding in public... not sure I've ever seen it.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: seesawsemiology on September 20, 2008, 01:32:27 pm
i do consume a fair amount of raw dairy(raw butter is amazing) but i must say if i eat/ drink too much in the course of a couple of days i get a sore throat which will disappear within 24 hours if i dont consume anymore...perhaps there is something to be said for that but i do find it makes me feel good and i otherwise process it just fine.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on September 20, 2008, 05:53:34 pm
i do consume a fair amount of raw dairy(raw butter is amazing) but i must say if i eat/ drink too much in the course of a couple of days i get a sore throat which will disappear within 24 hours if i dont consume anymore...perhaps there is something to be said for that but i do find it makes me feel good and i otherwise process it just fine.

It's common to experience euphoria from drinking dairy - I experienced this myself(along with a subsequent rise and drastic fall in energy-levels), and, as a result of this euphoria, I continued to drink raw dairy for months afterwards, until I finally realised that it was doing me a lot of harm. The euphoria is due to the opioids in the dairy. However, these opioids are very addictive, which is why people often find it so difficult to wean themselves off the foul stuff.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Sully on September 22, 2008, 02:45:55 am
How much protein and fat is in human milk? Is it less protein than cows?
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: seesawsemiology on September 22, 2008, 03:33:55 am
ive been told there is less fat (i guess there isnt enough fat in human milk to make cheese) i dont know about protein though...
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on September 22, 2008, 04:26:42 am
How much protein and fat is in human milk? Is it less protein than cows?
http://www.westonaprice.org/children/humanmilk.html
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Satya on February 14, 2009, 06:05:41 am
Does dairy cause carb cravings?  Anyone notice from giving it up?
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Raw Kyle on February 14, 2009, 06:09:59 am
I never had a problem giving up dairy. The only thing I crave is cheese and I think that's the salt.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Satya on February 14, 2009, 07:16:37 am
I never had a problem giving up dairy. The only thing I crave is cheese and I think that's the salt.

When did you give up dairy?  Did you notice when you ate it that you would get cravings for carb foods (you know, maybe crackers to go with the cheese)?
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: Raw Kyle on February 14, 2009, 08:44:09 am
I gave up dairy a few times. I didn't eat any dairy for a long time when I was mostly vegan. I never liked milk as a child. Then I started the Primal Diet and developed a bit of a taste for milk but mostly liked cream and cheese. I've given up dairy several times for more than a month at a time so I think that would be enough to say the addictions would have shown up at that point.

I'm not sure I can say that dairy made me crave carbs. Going off of my diet at all tends to be a slippery slope so I can't really chart what leads to what very well.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: aariel on October 01, 2009, 09:33:47 am
The problem with trying to figure out dairy is that most of the "science" is pretty useless.
There are so many problems...

Fresh milk is so different than cultured milk. So most studies of fresh milk have no relevance for cultured milk products and vice verse.

Raw milk is so different from pasteurized milk that you can't make conclusions about one from studies of the other.

Studies of health outcomes from milk are really studies of health outcomes of not just milk, but genetically modified synthetic bovine growth hormone and pesticide resides, antibiotics and melamine, and the list goes on and on.

There is huge bias in the research as well. The dairy industry funds almost all the research. Most researchers aren't even asking the right questions, because of their false assumptions like:
Raw milk is inherently dangerous
There is no nutritional difference between raw and pasteurized milk
There is no difference between milk produced with or without concentrates (grain)

Milk is has a lot of carbs from the lactose but the opiates come from incomplete protein digestion or fermentation.

As for Price's work, there are parts that are either just wrong or feel weird when you read it with a modern sensibility. However, the core principles of his research are quite sound. That is, when a switch is made from traditional diets to industrial diets, health goes down. I don't think that traditional diets necessarily produced exceptional health, but no matter what level of health they did produce, went down when the diet was switch to industrial food.

Other parts which are sound are that humans need large amounts of preformed vitamin A, D3 and K2 in their diets for good health. That cavities and crowded teeth are caused by poor nutrition--a notion that is practically gone in the dental profession. The Ontario Dental Association just started laughable public service campaign claiming that cavities are a contagious disease! What' next a vaccine for cavities?

As for the accusation of cherry picking, I think that is unjust. It's not like he found groups where there was no difference in health outcomes between the traditional diet and the industrial diet groups and excluded them. Or groups that thrived without preformed vitamin A, D3 and K2 and excluded those. It was Keys who used selective perception to push the crazy anti-fat mentality that currently has a grip on our society.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 01, 2009, 12:44:50 pm

 The Ontario Dental Association just started laughable public service campaign claiming that cavities are a contagious disease! What' next a vaccine for cavities?

As for the accusation of cherry picking, I think that is unjust. It's not like he found groups where there was no difference in health outcomes between the traditional diet and the industrial diet groups and excluded them. Or groups that thrived without preformed vitamin A, D3 and K2 and excluded those. It was Keys who used selective perception to push the crazy anti-fat mentality that currently has a grip on our society.

Addressing each point individually--

There is a bacteria in most people's mouths that actually feeds on sugar, and produces acids that dissolve enamel.  If you have never had it passed to you by kissing, etc., then you are much less likely to experience cavities, tooth decay, etc.  However, you can still be cavity-free through good diet.  Good oral hygiene helps too, but we all know diet is very important.

I think you are right.  Dr. Price did not cherry-pick.  He is often accused of this, but here's why I think he did not:

1.  Pottenger's Cats all had similar health on similar diets.  The cats that ate a particular diet generally had the same deformations and behavior problems, or lack of them, depending.

2.  In these traditional tribes, the people all ate very,very similar diets, within a tribe.  They had to.  It's just the nature of isolation.

3.  At least some of the tribe members (the ones that Dr. Price photographed) had really wonderful teeth and bone structure.

4.  Dr. Price noted that most of these groups, except for the primitive-diet Maori and primitive-diet Peruvians, had some crooked teeth.  He is very clear and precise in noting this, down to tenths of a percent.

Given all this, I don't think it's fair to say that Price cherry-picked members of specific tribes to photograph.  Similar diets will produce similar health, after accounting for individual reactions to different foods.  I'm not saying that 1 diet fits everyone, simply that, on my ideal diet, I won't get cavities. roughly speaking.  Furthermore, my ideal diet almost certainly will include some raw animal foods, maybe a large percentage, and probably won't be more than 20 or 30% carbs, by calorie percentage. This is true for pretty much any human, with almost no exceptions.

Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: TylerDurden on October 01, 2009, 04:28:30 pm

Raw milk is so different from pasteurized milk that you can't make conclusions about one from studies of the other.

I'm afraid the above statement is simply wrong. Raw milk contains many very harmful aspects that are also present in pasteurised milk. Examples of this include the opioids in raw and pasteurised milk(which foul up the human hormonal system), the excess calcium(which can lead to issues such as osteoporosis or magensium-deficiency, and then there's the casein and lactose issues. While some rawists have desperately claimed that lactose/casein are only an issue with pasteurised dairy, many, many rawists would beg to differ, given their own very negative experience re dairy.

Quote
As for Price's work, there are parts that are either just wrong or feel weird when you read it with a modern sensibility. However, the core principles of his research are quite sound. That is, when a switch is made from traditional diets to industrial diets, health goes down. I don't think that traditional diets necessarily produced exceptional health, but no matter what level of health they did produce, went down when the diet was switch to industrial food.

Well, the diets of many tribes that Price studied had particularly bad foods in them(such as fermented grains), yet Price tried to claim that they were healthy. Plus,I've actually read reports clearly indicating that Maori health(on ancestral diets), for example, was a hell of a lot worse than Price tried to claim. So, it's pretty clear that he cherry-picked his data and only photographed those people he felt measured up to his idealistic expectations and studiously ignored the multitude of sick, unhealthy tribespeople. Plus, he ignored certain other factors which helped tribesmen stay healthier than modern peoples:- namely, hard daily exercise and calroic restriction/forced fasting.

.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: aariel on October 01, 2009, 11:25:47 pm
I'm afraid the above statement is simply wrong. Raw milk contains many very harmful aspects that are also present in pasteurised milk. Examples of this include the opioids in raw and pasteurised milk(which foul up the human hormonal system), the excess calcium(which can lead to issues such as osteoporosis or magensium-deficiency, and then there's the casein and lactose issues. While some rawists have desperately claimed that lactose/casein are only an issue with pasteurised dairy, many, many rawists would beg to differ, given their own very negative experience re dairy.
.

Raw and pasteurized milk do share many common characteristics like the ones you mention. But they also have many differences like probiotic bacteria, vitamin C and multiple factors that make raw milk hostile to pathogenic bacteria. All these factors are reduced or destroyed by pasteurization.

My main point though is that the entire field of dairy studies is fraught with difficulties from bias, to asking the wrong questions, not asking the right questions, and numerous poorly designed studies that make unwarranted conclusions about superficially related topics that don't hold up under even the simplest of scrutiny.

I'm not trying to advocate consumption of dairy either, so please don't interpret my comments in this way. I'm just pointing out that most discussions of dairy are complicated by all the above problems.

I think it's pretty obvious that dairy is a novel food and that many people can't tolerate it at all or it does not serve them well. Milk sales have been falling every year for the past 20 years even though the prices have been going down--that's a pretty clear indication that something is wrong with milk (at least industrial milk).
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 03, 2009, 06:48:58 am
I'm afraid the above statement is simply wrong. Raw milk contains many very harmful aspects that are also present in pasteurised milk. Examples of this include the opioids in raw and pasteurised milk(which foul up the human hormonal system), the excess calcium(which can lead to issues such as osteoporosis or magensium-deficiency, and then there's the casein and lactose issues. While some rawists have desperately claimed that lactose/casein are only an issue with pasteurised dairy, many, many rawists would beg to differ, given their own very negative experience re dairy.
Yes, and cows' dairy can also contain high levels of bovine whey and beta cellulin.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: instant on October 03, 2009, 09:32:02 pm
I think Weston a price's main point was to show the harmful effects from refined foods..

raw dairy can be good for some, bad for others..


for me i do bettter on goat milk and even better on fermented goat milk..

Overall i may do a bit better when i eat more meat and less dairy... I think i my cheeks tend to puff up a bit from milk...


the only really good benefit i noticed from raw goat milk is i started drinking it after i was raw vegan, i gained 25lbs of muscle.
Title: Re: Dairy Dangers
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 03, 2009, 10:44:10 pm
One of my general rules is to try to stay out of heated debates with raw dairy proponents (which I don't always succeed in following, unfortunately), so instead I'll focus more on where I agree with Instant: I can easily understand how one could gain 25lbs of muscle by adding dairy to a raw vegan diet. I also agree that dairy supplements like whey protein powders can boost muscle development in some and are popular with many body builders for that reason. I personally value overall health above pure muscle development. The same mix of proteins, amino acids and bovine anabolic steroid hormones (such as bovine IGF-1, and yes, I know there is some in meat, though apparently at much lower concentrations) in dairy products that boost the muscle development of some seem to cause health problems for me, so I avoid them. I suspect that goat's dairy products would be less of a problem for me than cow's, but there's no guarantee. Besides, I have no desire to eat them and don't believe I have a need to eat them. So, to each their own.