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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Exercise / Bodybuilding => Topic started by: Haai on August 22, 2010, 05:46:36 am

Title: Ab wheel
Post by: Haai on August 22, 2010, 05:46:36 am
I'm thinking of purchasing an ab wheel, but first I thought I would check here to see if anyone here uses an ab wheel and what their thoughts are about it (useless or great?).
I'm looking for exercises that work multiple muscle groups instead of using exercises that target specific muscles. I would think the ab wheel (despite the name) exercises more than just the abs after seeing how the exercise is carried out. Other exercises I'm thinking of using that I think would meet the criterium of working multiple muscle groups at the same time are squats, dead lifts, presses, pull ups, rows, dips and power cleans.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: Haai on August 22, 2010, 05:49:29 am
and I was thinking push ups and situps would make good warm up exercises. Or do most people warmup before they even do pressups and situps too?
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: miles on August 22, 2010, 07:47:28 am
Just lift your legs up and stuff while hanging on a bar.. Move around in circles, do muscle-ups or w/e.. Also, unless there's a problem in your diet which makes you 'cold' and prone to inflammation, you shouldn't really need to warm up specifically. Just don't do anything which feels bad. I'd say to mix it up as much as possible with the movements, not to repeat the same movement every time.

"Just do it."
-Nike.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: wodgina on August 22, 2010, 04:25:32 pm
Deadlifts and squats will do your abs. Forget the wheel. Forget hanging leg raises. Deadlifts will pound the abs.

oh yeah you mentioned pull ups, these are great for abs also.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: Haai on August 22, 2010, 05:14:59 pm
Thanks for the feedback guys!
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: klowcarb on August 22, 2010, 09:20:05 pm
I have an Ab Wheel. It works fine. Except abs are made in the kitchen. I keep my abs very toned and flat just from eating ZC, no "cheats." I also work abs in weightlifting and cardio and a little plyometrics. If you are eating the wrong diet, your abs won't show.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: djr_81 on August 22, 2010, 09:37:04 pm
I have an Ab Wheel. It works fine. Except abs are made in the kitchen. I keep my abs very toned and flat just from eating ZC, no "cheats." I also work abs in weightlifting and cardio and a little plyometrics. If you are eating the wrong diet, your abs won't show.
Did you tell that to Sully? -\ ;)
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: wodgina on August 22, 2010, 09:46:29 pm
My abs sometimes show but by then I get really hungry for fat. Maybe if I do alternate day fasting. Not obsessed about abs though.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: KD on August 22, 2010, 10:46:02 pm
I don't think most equipment is necessary but some can have value. What are your fitness goals? I don't see any problem with something like an abwheel, but that would be more of a refinement exercise even if it does work multiple parts of the body (which I am unfamilar with).

If you are starting out and don't have acesss to a gym or garage with barbells, at the beginner level you can accomplish many of the olympic style lifts, deadlifts, squats, overhead press etc.. with dumbells or kettlebells. These would probably be my first choice in equipment. An interior pull up bar and/or rings would be great additions. Generally things with cables like bands or a rowing machine are also more useful than standard machines. Rowing being great for the abs and back muscles which compliment olympic lifts quite well actually.

Other than that, much can be accomplished with push-up variations and handstand pushups, dips, pull ups and the like. In addition to the weighted exercises above, regular old crunches, L-seat, and knees to elbows on an overhead bar will certainly work your abdominals. Sprints, short runs and bikeing also seem to do the trick. Just doing 5 rounds of air squats, full range situps, and pushups in rapid sucession is a pretty intense workout.

My experience so far with muscle-ups is that they are extremely challangeing to execute.

As to diet, other than in periods being really thin, I've never had very visible ab definition, but I can probably take a pretty hard punch. Rock solid. :)
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on August 26, 2010, 06:47:56 am
Ab wheel = unnatural

It's the truth. I don't do any ab concentrated exercise like crunches, leg lifts, ab wheel etc. And I still have great definition in my abdominal area.

Natural movements are enough to strengthen the abs.

Edit: Natural movements are also of course easier on the body. Because of this, they can be done with little to no warm up. Climbing trees once a week for me is great. Walking for long distances also great. Sitting on the floor instead of a chair helps too. Makes me squat up and down everyday.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: DeadRamones on September 11, 2010, 05:51:10 am

you shouldn't really need to warm up specifically.

 Warming up prevents injuries from happening & helps the muscles push more. Why would you recommend he just moves his arms around? I'm sure I read in a previous post that you are a judoka. Is that how you prepare for randori?

Ab wheel = unnatural So is sitting in front of a computer typing about the ab wheel. Not trying to be a wise guy here but I had to throw that out.

Ab wheel should be looked at as another tool. It's a tough move which I think you should add, especially since you're looking for compound lifts. You can also use a weight vest to increase intensity. Most of them range for about $5-30. I find that it helped me activate my core & lats while sticking when bouldering/climbing. Helped my posture for when I clinch in muay thai. IMO it's well worth the $10.

Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on September 11, 2010, 07:30:31 am

Ab wheel = unnatural So is sitting in front of a computer typing about the ab wheel. Not trying to be a wise guy here but I had to throw that out.

It be best if I avoid grains and processed foods and eat raw grass fed/wild meats.
Just as It be best if I avoid the ab wheel and hike through rough terrain or the woods (running up hills, stepping over logs in the process) hence, working the abs.

Would it be best if I avoid the internet even though it is unnatural?

MY ANSWER IS NO. Being on the internet helps me spread knowledge and information about raw paleo diet. Also, I talk to friends sometimes. But mainly for checking out the forum and making youtube videos to spread the truth to the world.

Going on the computer for 2-4hrs a day is a price I am willing to take.






Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: miles on September 11, 2010, 08:30:37 am

you shouldn't really need to warm up specifically.

 Warming up prevents injuries from happening & helps the muscles push more. Why would you recommend he just moves his arms around? I'm sure I read in a previous post that you are a judoka. Is that how you prepare for randori?


You shouldn't need to warm up separately before doing the sort of activity he's talking about. You should be warm, but you shouldn't need to warm up, though you might need to depending on what you eat. I don't need to do any real warming up before randori. I prefer to avoid warming up if I can, I do much better the less I do. I always check everything, move all my joints around to make sure, but I'm already warm before I get on the mat. At any time I could do randori, burst in to a sprint, do a kip-up jump, do a cartwheel, whatever... I used to have to warm up before I would do anything where there would be sudden strains. i.e. randori. Whereas I would never need to warm up before something like press-ups or sit-ups anyway even before..

When did I say he should just move his arms around? I was talking about moving in circles whilst hanging from a bar, not spinning his arms in the air. I was just suggesting that he can do many good exercises without getting equipment. I do have a wheel however.

Are you a Judoka yourself?
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: B.Money on September 11, 2010, 10:09:42 am
I have used an ab wheel and they can tear your abs up unlike anything else. You really cant compare going for a walk or climbing a tree to going all out an ab wheel (especially in standing variations). It's still an isolation movement though, so not as beneficial/natural as some other things mentioned (squat/deadlift/leg lifts).

edit: it looks like you are looking for something else though, the ab wheel is just a supplement, really the only reason I bought it is because I was getting bored with my other ab movements and wanted something different.

Also warm ups are important if your lifting weights to get used to the groove and range of motion. Warm up with the bar, then in 50lbs jumps after that using 25's. If you are stronger you can take 90lb jumps with 45's.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on September 11, 2010, 11:01:37 am
@B.Money

Your right, I am concentrating on more natural movements. Which is why I don't like the ab wheel. My point is, natural movements will strengthen your abs to where they need to be. I want a natural development in muscles. A natural ratio of mass and strength in certain areas.

Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: DeadRamones on September 11, 2010, 12:20:42 pm
Miles- I was very competitive in Judo for 5years. How do you get warm before training then? do you consider uchikomi's a warm up or do you just jump into randori?

Sully- I understand what you mean just throwing a jab out there lol.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on September 11, 2010, 01:27:58 pm
Sully- I understand what you mean just throwing a jab out there lol.
A jab it was, and I countered with hook>uppercut combo. Careful, leading with a jab leaves you open for counters. hah jk that's just want to make it clear i am against the ab roller,  ;)

There's seems to be many martial artist on here, hopefully one day we can all train together.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: pelham32 on September 14, 2010, 06:13:20 am
quote "Your right, I am concentrating on more natural movements. Which is why I don't like the ab wheel. My point is, natural movements will strengthen your abs to where they need to be. I want a natural development in muscles. A natural ratio of mass and strength in certain areas."

I like your stance on using natural movements especially realizing that squats and deadlifts build strong cores. But the thought of a ab wheel is not natural movement is erroneus, the abs were designed to resist spinal hyperextension. which is what the ab wheel does. crunches with improper form is what isn't natural because the spine needs to have higher stability to mobility ratio.  The ab wheel is great and I beleive a functional exercise along with planks, and turkish get ups. But for purely asthetic reasons weight crunches on an ab machine are also good to add along with your squats and deadlifts assuming your nutrition is dialed in.

Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on September 14, 2010, 08:42:37 am
when was the wheel invented?

my point exactly, not a natural exercise in my opinion

you can argue that about a resistance band too, but it is mimicking a natural movement (tearing something apart),

what natural movement is the ab wheel mimicking?
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: pelham32 on September 14, 2010, 10:12:05 am
sully by that logic heavy squats and deadlifts aren't natural because nothing in the life is a true squat or deadlift we run one leg at a time as well as walk. pretty much every lower body movement is done one leg at a time, my point is the ab wheel can effectively train your abdominals as well as your lats in the manner the abs were are designed to work resist spinal hyperextension and flexion... squats and deadlifts arent natural neither are shoes and shirts, nor freezing raw meat for preservation. I'm just saying the ab wheel can be used extensively especially for training and is more natural than a crunch.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: greywolve on September 14, 2010, 04:35:47 pm
i don't actually think bicep curls mimic anything no offense ;p they are the most useless exercise out there. at least do plate curls then and work your grip/wrists too ;) the other exercises you do are more in alignment with your ideas about whats natural.

i agree with pelham32 if you study the body and see what the muscle or group of muscles is designed to do then you can determine the optimal ways to train it.

also depends what your goals are. if you want to become insanely strong then unfortunately you have to do the so called "unnatural" stuff ;)
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: djr_81 on September 14, 2010, 06:39:23 pm
sully by that logic heavy squats and deadlifts aren't natural because nothing in the life is a true squat or deadlift we run one leg at a time as well as walk. pretty much every lower body movement is done one leg at a time, my point is the ab wheel can effectively train your abdominals as well as your lats in the manner the abs were are designed to work resist spinal hyperextension and flexion... squats and deadlifts arent natural neither are shoes and shirts, nor freezing raw meat for preservation. I'm just saying the ab wheel can be used extensively especially for training and is more natural than a crunch.

A deadlift isn't natural? Have you never had to lift something truly heavy off the ground and lift it somewhere over your head? I could absolutely see a similar movement occurring out in the wild.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: miles on September 14, 2010, 10:37:24 pm
Miles- I was very competitive in Judo for 5years. How do you get warm before training then? do you consider uchikomi's a warm up or do you just jump into randori?

Sully- I understand what you mean just throwing a jab out there lol.

Well I get on the tatami, move my joints around a bit, just as a check, and then straight into randori; or nage/uchi-komi if I do that first. I'm just generally warm already without having to do any sort of warm up. I wouldn't do uchi-komi or nage-komi as a warm up, as I put everything into every waza generally, but I would go straight into it usually without needing to actually warm myself up. I will check every time that I am warm, but I'm always warm already, before I start.. To do any warm-up I would feel a waste of energy/strength which I could be applying to waza.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on September 15, 2010, 02:45:04 am
who said i do repetitive squats and dead lifts as a exercise with barbell?

the only squat i do is getting up and down from the ground, since i sit on the floor instead of chairs unless in school classroom,

my legs exercises include walking through rough terrain hills etc, and pulling a tire thats on a mat, with a rope, with weights in the tire for weight, equivalent of dragging a huge branch or animal carcass,

also like i said before, getting up and down from the ground since i sit on the floor,

resistance band curls are much different than free weight curls,

like djr-81 said, lift a log, rock etc is like a deadlift, but most likely than log would have been dropped after lifting, instead of letting it down slow
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: DeadRamones on September 15, 2010, 05:42:52 am
Miles,

 You must be some sort of specimen. There's been time where I would be late to training & would have to warm myself up with a jump rope, then 2-3 rounds of light rolling,randori or sparring.I've been involved in Martial arts for an extremely long time. Out of all the martial arts I've done Judo was the hardest on my body. I don't see how not warming up would be possible unless your first sets of randori are light(which in that sense is considered a warm up). Especially if you're going 75% or more.


Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: miles on September 15, 2010, 10:48:17 am
As I said, I don't do randori feeling cold... I just start off being warm most of the time... You're upping the blood-flow around your body by doing that exercise, mine is already up enough that I can get straight in when I get to it, 100% without having to specifically 'warm-up'.. I am warm, as if I have warmed up... I'm as warm as anyone who has warmed up, I have as much blood flow as anyone who has warmed up. I check my movement, I naturally move around the mat a bit, you know, but I don't need to push myself in order to become warm. Other people need to get themselved pumped up before they can take 100%/jerking type actions and pushing themselves without getting injured; I don't need to do that as I already have the blood-flow... Other people go in dead and have to wake up their body and mind, and transition to Judo mode before they can start, but I am already there... there is little transition for me. What is your diet..?

Many people feel they even need to warm up before running, jumping and what not, and they do, and I would too, if I was cold in the first place... But I'm not, I'm not cold, I am warm, because I have warmed up, but I was never cold, so I haven't had to push my body to make myself warm.. how do you not understand? I am warmed up just moving around as I normally do, without having to 'warm up'. My body is doing stuff, and I have blood-flow... I do not arrive dead to the mat and kick-start my engine. My engine is already running, I just engage the clutch.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: pelham32 on September 16, 2010, 02:27:53 am
A barbell deadlift isn't that natural, functional yes. It trains your body and muscle groups in a functional synergistic manner, but natural  I don't think so. Going to the core element of natural would be to do what sully is describing as what he does. But I think that functional exercises like the ab wheel could add a lot of merit to someone wanting to stay purely natural. Afterall , it may not be natural but your abs were designed to move that way and it does create adaptations, as well as a extrememly strong functional core.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: KD on September 16, 2010, 05:12:56 am
A barbell deadlift isn't that natural, functional yes. It trains your body and muscle groups in a functional synergistic manner, but natural  I don't think so. Going to the core element of natural would be to do what sully is describing as what he does. But I think that functional exercises like the ab wheel could add a lot of merit to someone wanting to stay purely natural. Afterall , it may not be natural but your abs were designed to move that way and it does create adaptations, as well as a extrememly strong functional core.

Great post. Weight training/strength training etc.. whatever horrid name one can come up for it is about what works. The exceptions - and what doesn't work - are things that are either dangerous, or just purely inefficient. If something is the most efficient and safe, it far trumps what is natural. If someone is purely focused on natural movements, like Erwan Le Corre, or Sully here, I think that is great, but if someone else has modest fitness goals I don't see why there is any reason to eschew others man-made techniques, particularly if it gets them moving and working and happy. I would say the ab-wheel falls in the category of being a relatively unnecessary piece of equipment but one that might be useful for a specific goal.

As for the deadlift, technically that is just a lift to below your waist, but I would agree with djr that some similar movements would be requirements in nature. As a caveat, even though its been attempted to be argued otherwise, I don't see how periodic lifting of natural objects would compare to regular intense spurts with increasing weight in compound lifts...but hey I guess that is to be determined by the individual.

as for warm ups, they are pretty dam necessary when doing serious weight training IMO and has nothing to do with body temp (perhaps heart-rate) but actually opening up your muscles gradually to prepare for serious activity. Of course the standard reason is to avoid injury, but there are actual productive reasons as well for doing both dynamic and weighted warm ups.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on September 16, 2010, 05:34:09 am

as for warm ups, they are pretty dam necessary when doing serious weight training IMO
Yeah, that's what I believe too. But I can climb a tree with no warm up, and have no problem. Not the same for pull ups. It's obviously because pull ups are just stressing the arms. As climbing a tree evens out the stress load, at least if you do it without thought of just using your arms like a pull up of course.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: pelham32 on September 16, 2010, 07:58:36 am
If you want a purely natural workout , besides doing what sully does you could also volunteer moving furniture. You will be lifting and holding from all sorts of angles. It's also common for pretty much all furniture movers to have loads of functional strength and a great strength to body weight ratio.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: ezekiel on September 16, 2010, 11:07:59 am
Ahh yeah, some movers are super strong, incredibly strong. Moving items of many size through many angles is great

But oftentimes movers end up getting pushed too hard, or work when tired. Which often leads to injuries.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: greywolve on September 16, 2010, 04:33:11 pm
naaw you dont have to warmup for pullups , i never do and never had any problems. even weight training its not essential but probably best.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: wodgina on September 16, 2010, 07:09:29 pm
Never thought about just dropping heavy things Sully.

Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: KD on September 16, 2010, 08:59:50 pm
I used to work a number of different intense moving gigs. I never actually insured myself but I would have to agree that the potential to do so is quite high. What I alluded to earlier there was a discussion awhile back proposing these kinds of jobs (or natural activities in the paleo era) would yield better results than modern strength training. My results from moving everything from 400 lb concrete counter-tops to pump jacked crates was that it gave me very little muscle definition and moderate strength increase. Part of the issue is most of the day you are sitting on your ass, and the movements are not necessarily targeting weak spots but relying on whatever you can use to lift the thing. Unless you are going to stack weights inside the fridge or whatever you are carrying up the steps, eventually you'd be at a plateau in comparison to serious trainers.
Title: Re: Ab wheel
Post by: pelham32 on September 16, 2010, 10:35:16 pm
I used to work a number of different intense moving gigs. I never actually insured myself but I would have to agree that the potential to do so is quite high. What I alluded to earlier there was a discussion awhile back proposing these kinds of jobs (or natural activities in the paleo era) would yield better results than modern strength training. My results from moving everything from 400 lb concrete counter-tops to pump jacked crates was that it gave me very little muscle definition and moderate strength increase. Part of the issue is most of the day you are sitting on your ass, and the movements are not necessarily targeting weak spots but relying on whatever you can use to lift the thing. Unless you are going to stack weights inside the fridge or whatever you are carrying up the steps, eventually you'd be at a plateau in comparison to serious trainers.

Nice info, your right when you have to use alot of strength to do something your body will use it's strongest prime movers, which for most people are tight overactive quads. I agree your body will adapt to it, what i was refering to was i think movers get impressive forearm size and hand/ grip strength probaly close to rock climbers, if they really work all day. Serious trainers yeah have the advantage in that regard cuz serious training is all they think about besides your family or religious beliefs training is your job and life.. Everything ties in nutrition mindset, smart programming and willingness to keep pusing. Their attitude towards always working on their weaknesses makes great trainers who develop great functional bodies.   My favorite example Bruce Lee or Arnold Swartzenegger