Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on October 18, 2010, 08:32:48 am
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By ZC I mean you consistently try to get your carbs down to as close to zero as possible and regard any carb eating as cheating.
I'm curious about how many actual ZCers we have here and how their numbers compare to the rest of us. I figured an anonymous poll might maximize the number of responses. Some non-ZCers probably don't read this section of the forum, so the numbers may be skewed toward ZCers.
I'm not a ZCer myself. See my avatar description for my current approach.
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By ZC I mean you consistently try to get your carbs down to as close to zero as possible and regard any carb eating as cheating.
I'm curious about how many actual ZCers we have here and how their numbers compare to the rest of us. I figured an anonymous poll might maximize the number of responses. Some non-ZCers probably don't read this section of the forum, so the numbers may be skewed toward ZCers.
I'm not a ZCer myself. See my avatar description for my current approach.
I dont know how ZC'ers have the dedication to do so. I would go insane (at least in my current situation surrounded by SAD "food") so fruit sometimes, and raw organic veges daily are a nice escape. This last week i have been eating 300-400g of liver daily, and notice MASSIVE POSITIVE RESULTS all over my body. My sight has improved and cuts heal dramastically faster. The stuff can be a chore to get down tho, but its good medicine
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I am on the boarder of ZC ,
I drink two glasses of lemon water and about 20 carbs from coconut butter every day
I have ZC days were I feel good and eat no carbs, but I soon loose my appetite and energy if I go too long without any carbs. I feel like I need just a little lemon juice to level my blood sugar, and produce a mild insulin responce that helps me keep up weight and appetite.
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BTW, I'm not going to criticize anyone who publicly reveals that they are ZCers, though I can understand wanting to remain anonymous given the tenor of the forum lately.
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BTW, I'm not going to criticize anyone who publicly reveals that they are ZCers, though I can understand wanting to remain anonymous given the tenor of the forum lately.
The tenor of the forum is always fine and open, Phil.
Raw zero carbers are raw paleo dieters.
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The tenor of the forum is always fine and open, Phil.
Yours is, GS, but not everyone's, unfortunately.
Raw zero carbers are raw paleo dieters.
I agree.
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me, my husband, my toddler are raw ZC. last two weeks me and my husband didn't eat any fruits or veggies, but my toddler drinks some squeezed oranges in his water. we eat like lex rocker. everyday same food. i eat one meal or 2, my husband eats two meals and my toddler also eats two meals.
my toddler is in ZC almost a year now. today we visit a doctor who's also our family friend. he says that my toddler is too strong for his age. he checks his hands and feet and he also states that it's rare to see all pinkish color like that.
my husband eats 50% raw, 50% cook paleo for the past 2 months, but now he's complete raw paleo (for almost 10 days now). he's having some difficulties in his spinal cord, he's so hopeful that he'll heal faster with complete raw paleo ZC. i prepare his meals twice a day and i also feed him by my own hand.
my health is also very vibrant. skin, hair,lips everything glows. i get my sculpted arms already, strong hands and feet...etc. amazing!!
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I am. It's purely a function of what my body does well on and not a strict adherence to the idea though. I think RVLC/RLC are both perfectly fine choices and possibly the healthiest (moderation is key). Unfortunately each time I indulge in a different fruit or vegetable I have adverse reactions which remind me how RZC is best for me. Some day I may go back to a diet with fruits or vegetables in it but not in the foreseeable future.
Yours is, GS, but not everyone's, unfortunately.
There are a few people who get a bit worked up about RZC, pro or con, which get more attention as they're more vocal. Overall though the forum is civil about it IMO.
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I Just don't gain anything from eatting vegetables and fruits, organic produce is so expensive and if I eat anything like a tomato or avocado my stomach feels a little off, if I eat a sweet fruit I feel like my energy crashes and a little bloated and heavy. So by 4 months into the diet I gave up on trying to incorporate troublesome greens and vegetables, and furits. Although I do juice two lemons a day.I think the citric acid along with a little bit carbs does have a positive effect, but anything more than that I am afraid to try because I feel so good as things are.
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Mostly primal here
Lots of meat, milk and about a tablespoon of honey.
I used to eat meat and fruit mainly, but have trouble with fruit after I introduced milk. I feel a lot better on meat and milk anyway.
Although I'm pretty constipated, I'm hoping it will pass
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Raw did you vote? I didn't notice the vote tally go up after you posted.
...There are a few people who get a bit worked up about RZC, pro or con, which get more attention as they're more vocal. Overall though the forum is civil about it IMO.
Yes, I agree, though lately they seem to be turning up the heat, so I'm hoping this thread may help improve understanding and turn the heat back down a bit. Thanks for the inputs, everyone.
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Raw did you vote? I didn't notice the vote tally go up after you posted.
yo Angelo, I didn't see you vote for our friend Vinny Sacromonti yet for local office. hows about you do that.
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Raw did you vote? I didn't notice the vote tally go up after you posted.
i didn't vote at the beginning, later i did.
i don't like to be stubborn to be on raw ZC diet. i find that, if i have a meal with lots of meat and organs and fats, i just don't have enough place to eat other things. i'm not punishing myself eating same food, i also crave same food (weird!). i realize that my mind goes after so many things that i put less time to seat and think "what's for my diner today!"
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I am proudly a lifelong ZCer. I love it, it works, it makes me lean, it makes me strong, it makes me energetic and healthy.
I should add that I don't worry abou the carbs in eggs. So somedays I have a high of 6 or 7 grams of carbs from eggs, but that is all.
ZC rocks!
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I am proudly a lifelong ZCer. I love it, it works, it makes me lean, it makes me strong, it makes me energetic and healthy.
ZC rocks!
No need to say more!!!
Nicole
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I should add that I don't worry abou the carbs in eggs. So somedays I have a high of 6 or 7 grams of carbs from eggs, but that is all.
It only proves that ZC is unrealistic.
I once said that (carnivorous) zero-plant would be a better description
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I can understand wanting to remain anonymous given the tenor of the forum lately.
You're kidding, Phil. :)
I can't imagine that someone could want to remain anonymous on this forum because of not eating carbs from plants.
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What is ironic is that this forum was, early on, actually very heavily biased against raw omnivores with discussion of omnivorous diets severely frowned upon, even wild raw herbs were damned etc. By contrast, the only times raw omnivores have reacted against RZCers in a big way were when some of the RZCers, such as William, started to preach that all carbs were evil for everyone and all that rot. Fortunately, the rest of the RZCers are far more reasonable.
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It only proves that ZC is unrealistic.
I once said that (carnivorous) zero-plant would be a better description
Only it you are a literalist. No one I know who is ZC considers the carbs in eggs. They are biologically zero. Only a stupid person (not you Hannibal) would say that Zero Carb literally means NO CARBS AT ALL, which, yes, is impossible. We are talking about agents consumed that ACT like carbs in the body.
I don't ascribe to "carnivorous" since that can involve eating plants. I have nothing against it, but that is not my WOE.
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What is ironic is that this forum was, early on, actually very heavily biased against raw omnivores with discussion of omnivorous diets severely frowned upon, even wild raw herbs were damned etc.
I've been learning more about that. I didn't know until recently that Satya was apparently one of the founding members here. Even though I'm not ZC and have argued with ZCers in the past (including William going back to my PaleoFood days, though I mostly learned my lesson not to debate him :) ), I have also noticed the shift of the rhetoric more in the anti-ZC direction while I've been here. Part of that is because William was so active and extreme that he made the forum seem much more pro-ZC than it actually was. I knew Lex was more active early on. Why did the other carnivore guy who was here at the beginning and whom you sometimes talk about leave this forum and start his own website? I think you shared the reason before, but I can't remember it.
When I was doing my ZC experiment, I think some people here may have mistook me as philosophically ZC. In contrast, the ZIOH people seemed to think that I was too positive about carb-containing foods like liver. The idea of avoiding liver and eggs just because they contain some carbs never did make sense to me, but when I was reading posts at ZIOH (mainly Lex's, Satya's and Katelyn's--who have all since left that forum), CW asked that before anyone talk positively about liver and other carb-containing foods, or the carbs that the Inuit ate, or criticize ZC, that we at least try ZC ourselves for a while. I thought that was fair and I was curious about it, so I tried it for several months. I must admit that I did very well on it, but it doesn't make sense to me in the long run to completely avoid liver, eggs and herbs solely because they contain a little carbs or fiber (though there could be other reasons like extreme senstivities). It seems too dogmatic to me and I abhor dogmatism. On the other hand, if eating nothing but muscle meat and fat was the only thing that worked for me I wouldn't have a problem with doing it.
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Agree, Phil. But I don't let ZIOH define ZC. I eat organs, eggs, and butter. I am ZC. I think the ZIOH diet of Wal-Mart muscle meat is crap.
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You're free to call yourself what you like, of course, but I think of that as a raw animal food diet, rather than raw ZC, though CW appears to have laxened his own definition of ZC, which supports my contention that it's time to bury the term, because not many people still adhere to actual zero carb and literally zero carb is impossible, as has been pointed out by others here.
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PP, the person referred to was Craig, I think. He did not quit rawpalaeo or RZC, he just left the forum because he found arguing with Satya such a hassle.
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Guys,
Sorry I don't want to be mean (really) but I think these types of discussions (what is ZC, with or without organs etc) are kind of tiresome. I eat only animal foods (meat, fat, eggs, organs) and have never felt better in my life. Also I think it would be rather nice not to judge or (for Katelyn) to look at ZIOH with a sense of anger. I found their behavior on ZIOH towards katelyn REALLY BAD and CHILDISH!!!!! I am not taking part in discussions on ZIOH because they seem rather childish and superficial (like fighting over who has a harder job raising kids, woman or men....) also because I hate the anti-exercise atmosphere overe there and I love to exercise....(oh sorry didn't intend to write all this)
What I wanted to say is: I am glad that I was part of ZIOH, b/c that's were I met katelyn and she was one of the main drivers for me to have my meal at night - and both ZC and WD is, what is working best for my body and mind!
So why the talk how you define ZC? Is it really important?
Nicole
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What is WD?
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What is WD?
Warrior Diet
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Guys,
Sorry I don't want to be mean (really) but I think these types of discussions (what is ZC, with or without organs etc) are kind of tiresome. I eat only animal foods (meat, fat, eggs, organs) and have never felt better in my life. Also I think it would be rather nice not to judge or (for Katelyn) to look at ZIOH with a sense of anger. I found their behavior on ZIOH towards katelyn REALLY BAD and CHILDISH!!!!! I am not taking part in discussions on ZIOH because they seem rather childish and superficial (like fighting over who has a harder job raising kids, woman or men....) also because I hate the anti-exercise atmosphere overe there and I love to exercise....(oh sorry didn't intend to write all this)
What I wanted to say is: I am glad that I was part of ZIOH, b/c that's were I met katelyn and she was one of the main drivers for me to have my meal at night - and both ZC and WD is, what is working best for my body and mind!
So why the talk how you define ZC? Is it really important?
Nicole
Thanks Nicole, I always enjoyed talking to you! I am glad that I have such a strong personality that I never let them bully me into stopping weightlifting. Most people on ZIOH are not successful because they eat too often, eat poor quality meat and don't exercise. If you are on Facebook, PM me!
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Guys,
Sorry I don't want to be mean (really) but I think these types of discussions (what is ZC, with or without organs etc) are kind of tiresome.
Exactly--the frequent debates caused by the combination of all that confusion and dissension over ZC plus the fact that no one is truly zero carb makes the term worthy of burying so that there will be less discussion about it. I think the reason the term survives is that it's convenient to write just two letters, but if we could get alternative acronyms going, like RC (raw carnivore), RPC (raw pure carnivore), and RM (raw meat) I think there's a chance that would eventually improve both understanding and harmony.
I eat only animal foods (meat, fat, eggs, organs) and have never felt better in my life.
Liar! (joke)
What I wanted to say is: I am glad that I was part of ZIOH, b/c that's were I met katelyn and she was one of the main drivers for me to have my meal at night - and both ZC and WD is, what is working best for my body and mind!
Great attitude! You reminded me of another potential reason why the term "ZC" may cause irritation to some members here. ZIOH has given ZC bad associations. Some, like you, had bad experiences at ZIOH and may not enjoy being reminded of the place with the favorite term of it's members. Is this the case for anyone? I know I found some of the extreme dogmatism there offputting.
So why the talk how you define ZC? Is it really important?
Nicole
Not really on its own, but the frequent discussions you complained about that "ZC" causes is a real issue here. Time to kill it and end the problem for good, I say. Let's leave "ZC" to ZIOH and come up with better terms here. My guess is that most of the people here who call themselves ZCers actually eat some foods that contain more than 1% carbs, such as beef liver and eggs, so that the term does not describe their WOE well anyway.
Thanks for the input, Nicole.
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Thanks Nicole, I always enjoyed talking to you! Most people on ZIOH are not successful because they eat too often, eat poor quality meat and don't exercise.
Thanks!
Well I don't know what the % of people is on ZIOH that are sucessful or not but I think you are saying basically the right things: eating too often, not exercising, poor qualitity food-that's probably not a good approach to eating carnivore ;-)
Nicole
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Exactly--the frequent debates caused by the combination of all that confusion and dissension over ZC plus the fact that no one is truly zero carb makes the term worthy of burying so that there will be less discussion about it. I think the reason the term survives is that it's convenient to write just two letters, but if we could get alternative acronyms going, like RC (raw carnivore), RPC (raw pure carnivore), and RM (raw meat) I think there's a chance that would eventually improve both understanding and harmony.
I know I found some of the extreme dogmatism there offputting.
Thanks for the input, Nicole.
You are welcome,
well for me it's realy only a term...a name...I learned about being a carnivore with the term ZC and I actually never thought that would include only muscle meat and fat...
I found the dogatisme very offputting-so I went away, especially after all my favorite members left anyway ;)
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Thanks again, Nicole; I appreciate your support.
Phil, I DON'T want to cede the term "ZC" to ZIOH. I don't consider their muscle meat only supermarket brand no organs no strength training philosophy to be at all ZC. I'm fighting for the term. -d
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Most people on ZIOH are not successful because they eat too often, eat poor quality meat and don't exercise.
Isn't Charles a distance runner? So,it's just Charles and DelFuego that seem healthy on that forum? I wonder if dairy has something to do with it as well?
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I don't recall anyone on ZIOH saying they were not successful, but i haven't been on that forum in about a year. What health problems did they run into?
My definition of ZC includes organs and excludes dairy. I don't like the term 'ZC' at all but i'm so used to it and it's only 2 letters compared to typing 'carnivore' or 'animal-only'. Maybe this forum should find an entirely new acronym for our diet.
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I don't recall anyone on ZIOH saying they were not successful, but i haven't been on that forum in about a year. What health problems did they run into?
You can find posts by people who had problems with zero carb diets both in this forum and at http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/.
My definition of ZC includes organs and excludes dairy. I don't like the term 'ZC' at all but i'm so used to it and it's only 2 letters compared to typing 'carnivore' or 'animal-only'. Maybe this forum should find an entirely new acronym for our diet.
See http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/zero-carb-what-does-it-mean-and-are-there-alternative-terms/msg50150/#msg50150 for other possible terms.
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This whole business of labelling is so artificial and odiously politically correct. Raw ZC is fine as everyone understands it to really mean an only raw animal foods diet usually including raw dairy, and nothing to do with carbs or no carbs, animal- or plant-based. "Raw carnivore" may be fine as a term for those RZCers who cannot tolerate dairy.
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I don't recall anyone on ZIOH saying they were not successful, but i haven't been on that forum in about a year. What health problems did they run into?
That's because those people are kicked off the forum!
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Raw ZC is fine as everyone understands it to really mean an only raw animal foods diet usually including raw dairy
In that case, then I am Paleo ZC, which means no dairy.
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In that case, then I am Paleo ZC, which means no dairy.
Right! That's the distinction I've been looking for. However,how can ZC include dairy? Isn't lactose considered a sugar which is in turn a considerable carb??
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Right! That's the distinction I've been looking for. However,how can ZC include dairy? Isn't lactose considered a sugar which is in turn a considerable carb??
Yeah, there are lots of carbs in milk, it is not even close to ZC. But someone can still be truly ZC if the only dairy he eats is cheese and butter, which have no carbs.
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why do ppl even eat/drink anyhting dairy for the 'benefits'. it doesnt make sense as it has more bad side effects. i swear ppl that are paleo w dairy do it only caause the stuff is really addicting and it tastes good
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Yeah, there are lots of carbs in milk, it is not even close to ZC. But someone can still be truly ZC if the only dairy he eats is cheese and butter, which have no carbs.
Cheeses have got 0-3 g of carbs in 100 g.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-cheese001000000000000000000-2.html?&freetext=cheese
That's because lactose has been broken down into lactic acid; but probably not always 100% of it.
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Over the last couple of weeks I have gradually reduced my carb intake. I used to be addicted to sugar in fruit even if it made me feel terrible. I felt better after shaking my addiction, although the candida die off phase was brutal.
I'm not sure if can consider myself zero carb. I still consume dairy in the form of raw milk kefir, but I ferment it long until the sugars are eaten up. I probably will continue this until I am brave enough to try high meat. I need a good probiotic till then.
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Traditional pro-biotics don't help much in the way of meat digestion and the claims that they are effective in treating candida are over exaggerated, although fermented milk products can ward off candida they do nothing to rid the gut of the conditions that allow for it to persist. Its benefits are often outweighed by the fact that milk proteins cause excessive gut mucus and keep the gut from completely cleansing it self. This has been my personal experience. I ate Kefir and yogurt for years thinking it was helping me with candida, it did seem to alleviate some of my symptoms but it never corrected the underling problems.
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Traditional pro-biotics don't help much in the way of meat digestion and the claims that they are effective in treating candida are over exaggerated, although fermented milk products can ward off candida they do nothing to rid the gut of the conditions that allow for it to persist. Its benefits are often outweighed by the fact that milk proteins cause excessive gut mucus and keep the gut from completely cleansing it self. This has been my personal experience. I ate Kefir and yogurt for years thinking it was helping me with candida, it did seem to alleviate some of my symptoms but it never corrected the underling problems.
Are you speaking from your experience or from people on the site? ???
What should I do then?
Most milk makes my throat produce a lot of mucus. The milk I drink now doesn't have that effect. I can't be too sure that it is same with my intestine unfortunately.
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I ate yogurt and milk and even made home made kefer, and yes it made me flem up with mucus, but I thought it was helping with candida so I ate it anyway. The benefits are so mild and often the side effects are so mild that its hard for many people to perceive whether or not dairy is good for them in the big picture sense. Some people just don't pay close attention.
There are a lot of others on this site that will agree that dairy is a troublesome food, and I saw quickly that it wasn't good for me as well. Even if the mucus isn't building up in your throat, doesn't mean that the milk doesn't turn into a problem in the gut . Its a big grey area and I don't want to proclaim that its bad for you personally, I just think you should consider taking it out of the diet for an extended period while replacing it with more raw paleo food, and let your body decide if you are better off without it. Some people have to get past the withdrawl stage before feeling better.
I am genuine in my concerns about raw dairy, and am adamantly against the use of probiotic supplements while on a paleo diet. Its just not necessary, unless you are using dairy; then in that case it could ease some of the symptoms associated with poor digestion of dairy, but If you have such symptoms you would be better off without either .
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Maybe I really should get off of it. -\
I did notice something. I respond negatively to aged cheeses no matter what source it comes from (cow/goat/sheep). I wonder if it is because of the microorganisms in cheese or the casein. The single cup of kefir I drink doesn't give me violent reaction but it does have me thinking. Maybe I have an addiction I'm not aware of.
The first milk I drink after veganism was Holstein milk. I remember that I felt addicted to it. It's a feeling hard to explain, but it felt like I "needed" it. It took only a few drinks before I reacted to it but I drank 3 cups a day until my rashes were really bad.
Then I switched to guernsey milk. I didn't have that "need" feeling and have been drinking only 1 cup since. Maybe that "need" feeling is there but just weaker. XD
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I identify as a ZC'er OR a dirty carnivore. I use them interchangeably because I do eat dairy, spices, the odd herb.
why do ppl even eat/drink anyhting dairy for the 'benefits'. it doesnt make sense as it has more bad side effects. i swear ppl that are paleo w dairy do it only caause the stuff is really addicting and it tastes good
Akshully I do it because heavy cream tastes really good in my coffee. The coffee is addicting. When I quit coffee, I don't drink cups of heavy cream. I do not get a bad side effect. I quit dairy when I first went off carbs (as a whole) and have been allergic to milk my whole life. I now don't have any allergic reaction to it. Tasting good IS the reason. If something tastes good, but doesn't give you bad side effects, why not do it?
I probably get about 7g carbs from the dairy, then whatever is in the muscle. Liver days I'll get more.
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If something tastes good, but doesn't give you bad side effects, why not do it?
Welcome Babette (Megan), nice to see you here.
I do suspect that taste is a key factor for many people in why they eat foods that are in the questionable gray areas of healthy dieting or in quantities and durations that exceed those of Stone Agers and modern hunter gatherers. The most emotional arguments and most fervent promotion tends to be made in favor of the tastiest foods. One positive thing they can do is help someone who is underweight to eat more calorie-rich foods and consume more total calories and thus bulk up to a pleasing appearance (especially for males, as thin males tend to be regarded by society as less healthy looking than thin females) and thus appear to confirm the "healthy" nature of these foods. Another benefit is, the tastier the foods the easier it is to stick to the diet.
For people trying to lose weight, these same tasty and calorie-rich gray-area foods can be some of the biggest stumbling blocks. They tend to have some ancestral connection (for example, it has been argued that dairy fat is similar in composition to animal body fats, small amounts of fermented milk were probably consumed occasionally by the hunters of a band/tribe not long after the technology of animal-skin bags was developed, and a certain amount of lactose tolerance has evolved in some peoples), so it's fairly easy to convince ourselves that they couldn't be the source of any problems and their tastiness and convenience are great incentives to want to keep them in our diets.
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so it's fairly easy to convince ourselves that they couldn't be the source of any problems and their tastiness and convenience are great incentives to want to keep them in our diets.
ah ha ha! Yes, I will try e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. else to resolve an issue before I ditch the cream. Why? I'm a hedonist by nature. If I found that it really was a problem for me, after tweaking every other variable I could, I would ditch it. Maybe. Quality of life over quantity. l)
Hi Phil! ;)
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LOL, yes I suspect that taste and hedonism play a much larger role in most people's food choices than many will admit. It's refreshing to see someone admit it.
I also place quality of life over length of life. I eat raw fruits and raw honey mainly because I enjoy them, though I look for as many excuses to eat them as I can find. ;D They do give me issues, but I find that if I give them up completely the resulting diet also tends to have problems of its own, so I'm still in the process of working out the best overall approach for my needs.
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though I look for as many excuses to eat them as I can find.
Which is just on this side of where it becomes a problem. I think that there is a slippery slope (I'm totally not implying that you are sliding btw) where we come up with reasons to eat what we usually know is just pure "because I wanna". Those reasons then become "no, I need to do this" because we've given ourselves "reasons". The mild vigilance it takes to not start believing anything other than "because I wanna" stops that issue. I see it in a lot of places. Rationalization. It's a pet peeve. ;D
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Yup and the tastier the foods are, the more emotionally defensive folks tend to be about them. There aren't too many folks getting angry if anyone reports not liking broccoli or Brussels sprouts or not doing well on them, but say something bad about raw cream at a Weston Price or raw Primal group discussion or bacon at a ZC forum or raw fruits or honey here then watch out! LOL