Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: ForTheHunt on December 13, 2010, 09:53:24 am
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I'm not sold on RPD anymore. Tried it now for a year or so.
What I think is mostly missing is cooked starch. I've been struggling so hard to gain any weight on RPD. Just couldn't gain any muscle for the life of me. And I was losing muscle slowly. To me that is a serious sign that somethings wrong.
Now for the past 3 weeks I've added cooked starches into my diet and I've gained 2 pounds per week of muscle. And in fact, the eczema on my neck, which I got AFTER I started RPD is clearing up fast. It's about 80% cleared up after I went back on a heavy carb diet.
Other things which were affecting me on RPD are gone. Such as constipation, low energy, etc.
Just look at Jack Lalanne. The guy is 96, still working out, still publishing books, still has a full head of hair and his natural haircolor.
He eats a mix of raw fruits/veg cooked whole grains and starches + cooked meat. Doesn't touch milk though 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qKgIHXWTTo
love this guy.
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I have always disagreed with zero carb, I tried it for a couple days and my brain did not like that.
How do you cook your starches? Why not sprout?
Are you going to start cooking your meat?
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I have always disagreed with zero carb, I tried it for a couple days and my brain did not like that.
How do you cook your starches? Why not sprout?
Are you going to start cooking your meat?
I tried sprouting. In fact I sprouted hardcore at one point. And that was at the point in my life where I felt worst. Had absolutely no energy.
As far as cooking my meat, I haven't really made up my mind on that. I crave cooked meat very often I also crave raw meat often. I'm going play with it a bit more and see which gives me more energy and fits better with the foods I'm eating.
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wow dude.I think RPD is still experimental at this stage for most people anyway.The groups/societies that did well on it during their time a long time ago,didn't think of themselves as RPD at that time.They just ate what they thought was best, or could find, or adapted to.
I guess you're discovering that for yourself as well.good luck and keep us posted.
Btw,now get ready for the posts that will ask you if you ate enough fats to gain weight ;)
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wow dude.I think RPD is still experimental at this stage for most people anyway.The groups/societies that did well on it during their time a long time ago,didn't think of themselves as RPD at that time.They just ate what they thought was best, or could find, or adapted to.
I guess you're discovering that for yourself as well.good luck and keep us posted.
Btw,now get ready for the posts that will ask you if you ate enough fats to gain weight ;)
Yeah, I did a high fat period for months. I got fatter, didn't gain muscle and most importantly I felt really gross. That's also what sparked my neck eczema. Trust me - I am no scrub when it comes to RPD. I make daily experiments with food ratio, macro nutrient ratios, chew times, eating schedules, intermittent fasting etc. I don't stop until I've tried every aspect of something.
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Hey FTH, I hope you will keep us informed of your progress. What cooked starches are you eating now?
Please don't skimp on the information just because you're not fully RPD anymore, I'd really like to hear about what you're doing and the effects. You can always keep it in the hot-topics forum.
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If you feel the need for starch to gain muscle then nothing wrong with it, ( potatos may not be paleo but they are an ancient food, I believe more ancient then grains and we're better evolved to eat it ) especially if you have tried honest raw paleo, which you have.
There are also many theories saying why starches can be very beneficial, and even better then glucose and of course fructose. I eat some potatoes and yams but keep it minimal, with inclusion of some fermented cabbage, fresh herbs and root salads my need for cooked starch goes to a minimal.
I am also in a similar state, that I crave both cooked and raw meat when hungry, so I just eat both at the moment, but try to concentrate on the raw part to keep it real 8) and more paleo.
But if you gonna eat starches stick with yams and potato, I'd stay away from any grains, and if I do have to eat grains, I go with buckwheat (I handle that the best), definitely stay away from cooked legumes wheat and gluten, most get really bad digestion from them. Remember grains are a neolithic food, I am not trying to scare you with the word lol, just saying that it likely may contribute to some problems later in life. Also I think when cooked grains are included you will loose you ability to digest cooked meat efficiently and you will also likely develop problems with dairy. I noticed with total exclusion of grains I handle dairy very well, when I eat grain, its bad, when I eat grains and dairy, really bad, get skin problems, cant digest etc. When I don't eat neo-crap, I have no problems having butter and kefir. I eat raw cheese but recently lost all craving for some reason, probably cause I put butter and cod liver oil back into my diet, I prefer the kefir over any cream or milk, its pasteurized but I can feel it has a gigantic pile of bacteria in it, its very thick and tangy, I leave it out in my room and it doesn't putrefy it gets even better. I'd stick away from getting too much lactose though, that kefir gives me a small dose of lactose, I'll eat it for 2-3 days and then I don't eat it for a week or two, I like carbs from roots, tubers and some non-sweet (or wild if I can find) fruits. The only lactose I allow to me is with the kefir - just because my body really digs whatever bacteria menagerie they put in there, I only buy that one brand too.
I don't think its a biggie if your fat isn't high...its more important its the right fat, animal fat, butter fat, fish fat - maybe coconut...I always eat the fat as part of my meat - or with eggs, or with a starch...just eating pure fat will make me disgusted too, unless its a good quality bone marrow, whats important is to not have to LITTLE fat.
Zero carb is unreal, unless you're very well adapted to it, but LOW carb is a blast! With minimal (for your lifestyle and adaption) but beneficial carbs, essential fat and animal protein, you are already near perfect diet-wise, or thats the way it feels to me.
Recently I included some clams, and I have felt totally wired up from them, guess I needed extra iron even with all the meat. If you didn't try clams give it a shot perhaps its help with exercise. I also mixed smoked clams with cod liver oil and it was nuts.
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Most people gain muscle best at bodyfat percentages above 10%, maybe the diet just got you too lean?
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I've been doing a little cooked yam/root/veg as part of my diet. It doesn't seem necessary for me to put on weight or muscle, but i'm speculating it will make it easier if I can successfully work it into my routine and be far healthier -for me- than raw carbs. I believe there are alot of factors that hardcore raw proponents don't get in addition to the fructose thing (which I guess is subjective) in comparison to raw bioactive fruit sugar. Also of course, unlike meat, raw starch won't be assimilated as easily as cooked. I've been downright emaciated 3-4 times in the last 5 years on a variety of approaches to raw (including RAF), so I don't know if that is part of the process, or just some pain in the ass from the wrong fit of ideas, but I can relate to the skepticism.
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I've been doing a little cooked yam/root/veg as part of my diet. It doesn't seem necessary for me to put on weight or muscle, I've been downright emaciated 3-4 times in the last 5 years on a variety of approaches to raw (including RAF)
Not to derail the thread,but in the end how did you gain?
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Not to derail the thread,but in the end how did you gain?
drugs and photoshop -v
I dunno, part of me actually does believe there has to be a pretty massive overhaul of old tissue prior to healthy muscle and fat and that any all raw approach (healthy or not) will at least initiate this process. I do eat raw butter and lots of raw marrow and marginal suet which separates me somewhat from other VLC or LC folks. Also I've also been working out for like 10 years, so even given the new materials/construction there is some kind of 'muscle memory' or whatever I assume and just the pure intensity of my current training plays a large role. I think if I did not work out and followed some other Primal stuff or was just eating suet I probably could not gain weight that way. If I don't exercise, I hardly eat. I think getting just alot of variety of foods sources (even within VLC) is helpful even if it isn't necessary. That said, I've really gained less than 10 net lbs the year..I just got down a bit again for a time. I've talked to or heard about a few people that have gained like 30-50 lbs on some of this stuff...not sure how in shape they are though.
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I don't think zero carb is optimal at all, that's why I've been sticking to eating very high quality rice even though I'm eating lots of meats and fats. When going zero carb in the past, it wasn't making me feel any better than the more unhealthy diet I was eating before. I do think I need to find a better starch for my body as I don't think I can digest rice so well. I wonder if potatoes would be ok for me.. I'll never know unless I try. Hopefully they'll help me gain some weight. It's all about finding what works for you.
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I was one of those guys that gained 40+lbs in a few months on a bulking "bodybuilder" diet. I think about 30lbs of it was fat.
Sure the scale moves MUCH slower now, but I am also very lean and when I gain weight I can be sure its muscle and not fat.
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I was one of those guys that gained 40+lbs in a few months on a bulking "bodybuilder" diet. I think about 30lbs of it was fat.
Sure the scale moves MUCH slower now, but I am also very lean and when I gain weight I can be sure its muscle and not fat.
I was speaking about just raw or animal food diets...mostly people on a Primal type diet specifically with those figures. Sitting around just makes it impossible for me to gain weight that way even if I tried to get fatter. There are a few people on DC forum that seem to have put on some mass with starch-free dairy-free diets, including some raw and some cooked animal foods...and I guess there are some people on ZIOH with athletic builds.
I don't think zero carb is optimal at all, that's why I've been sticking to eating very high quality rice even though I'm eating lots of meats and fats. When going zero carb in the past, it wasn't making me feel any better than the more unhealthy diet I was eating before. I do think I need to find a better starch for my body as I don't think I can digest rice so well. I wonder if potatoes would be ok for me.. I'll never know unless I try. Hopefully they'll help me gain some weight. It's all about finding what works for you.
yams require very little skill or equipment. its usually easy to come across organic and even biodynamic root veg, and just toss in the oven. I would probably start with the yams or bitter tubers over plain potatoes.
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I was speaking about just raw or animal food diets...mostly people on a Primal type diet specifically with those figures. Sitting around just makes it impossible for me to gain weight that way even if I tried to get fatter....
Yup, if I eat pure paleo I can't gain weight even if I sit on my ass for days, thats what I learned, when I do pure raw paleo I will not be able to gain ANY weight even if I add lots of fruit sugars and fat and I don't even like the feeling too much fruits give me - at all.
I can gain quick weight with potatoes (sweet, yam and white) added with butter or other animal fat and add a little dairy (optional).
If I ever feel too thin in winter, few big meals of potato laden with butter and topped with Kefir or sour cream often make me gain some weight quickly or keep up my weight, regardless of any activity level.
So if one wants to gain weight, tuber starch + butter/fat is a quick solution and for most very easy on digestion. But of course eat meat protein in a separate meal from the starch meal or you may have some digestive difficulties :P
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I definitely couldn't do zero carb. Much respect to those who can, but I've never made it more than a week. I need fruit and the occasional leafy green thing for optimal happiness.
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Could you eat the tubers raw? or would that just be gross and unhealthy?
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Could you eat the tubers raw? or would that just be gross and unhealthy?
Yes, you can eat sweet potatoes raw, and they are good, but if you buy a bad batch they may be bleh.
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Yup, if I eat pure paleo I can't gain weight even if I sit on my ass for days, thats what I learned, when I do pure raw paleo I will not be able to gain ANY weight even if I add lots of fruit sugars and fat and I don't even like the feeling too much fruits give me - at all.
I don't need to gain weight on puropose.
I gain it and lose it with the seasonal changes, practically ceteris paribus when it comes to my diet's composition.
Now I'm more bulked-up (88-90 kg).
But I DON"T NEED any cooked starches or dairy, whatsover.
Leanness is IMO very healthy and RPD ensures it. :)
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I'm not sold on RPD anymore. Tried it now for a year or so.
What I think is mostly missing is cooked starch.
Could it be the weather? You being in Greenland in December? Maybe come Springtime you will like raw paleo again. What were you eating? Are you originally from Greenland? What kind and quality of foods do you find available?
Jack Lalanne. The guy is 96, still working out, still publishing books, still has a full head of hair and his natural haircolor.
He eats a mix of raw fruits/veg cooked whole grains and starches + cooked meat
Is he against raw meat now? He was drinking a lot of raw cow blood for a time, many years ago. http://www.esquire.com/features/what-ive-learned/ESQ0804-AUG_WIL (http://www.esquire.com/features/what-ive-learned/ESQ0804-AUG_WIL) I wonder if the blood made him sick. Does he mean his blood clotted, or he just got disgusted with the idea of drinking it?
Leanness is IMO very healthy and RPD ensures it. :)
Leanness is normally healthful, but when one encounters toxins it could be good to have fat. Also, a woman can use fat to nourish her young, I think. Women may need some fat on them. I was very thin most of my life. I did have muscular development where necessary, of course I grew more now. I remember though a time I was so thin I had to intentionally start gaining weight; because I thought it looked unwomanly, thin skin, bones and breast.
Yuli is pretty thin at her height. Being that thin is probably vata constitution (extremist). Vata is the constitution of very old people. Kapha is that of woman and and that of children. I think it's good that she's seeking a balance of cooked and raw foods. Personally I prefer all raw, but I think I have more Pitta in my constitution (heat and testosterone). I think it's good that she tests to see if she can gain a little weight. When a person has imbalanced Vata various things can happen, they can get obese or emaciated for one, especially without Pitta. It might be accomplished by eating more raw meats, but maybe not for her. Leanness is beautiful, and at that height and weight, a literal pound or two extra will not detract from the beauty, but add to it.
Yuli, I can't believe I'm saying it's totally fine for someone to eat some cooked, but I am raw, that doesn't mean I judge that each individual should always be. Cooked foods are addictive anyway, for me. They're hard to avoid in some situations.
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Leanness is normally healthful, but when one encounters toxins it could be good to have fat.
But leanness doesn't defnitely exclude having fat. I DO HAVE the adipose tissue, probably over 10 pounds. Isn't that enough? :o
Yuli is pretty thin at her height.
And she is a physically active woman. :)
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I had to laugh when Jack Lalanne was mentioned. In that video, he certainly looks a pale, sickly shadow compared to certain, clearly photoshopped images I've seen of him of him elsewhere online. And " natural hair-colour at 96"?! -v l) l) l) Yeah, right l) Well, if anything, it does show what botox and other plastic surgery can do for you, if you've got the cash.
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Well, if anything, it does show what botox and other plastic surgery can do for you, if you've got the cash.
That's a good point.
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He is 94 years old. He doesn't use botox or have plastic surgery. His hair looks dyed though.
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He is 94 years old. He doesn't use botox or have plastic surgery. His hair looks dyed though.
One can never be absolutely sure re plastic surgery. I agree that some 100-year-olds can look like he does, given photos I've seen in the past, but plastic surgery can sometimes be so good one cannot tell from a photo. But the hair-issue seems obvious - I mean, everybody's hair turns white eventually in old age. While a 60 or maybe even a 70 year old man might miraculously still retain all his original hair-colour, any one older is bound to be grey-haired, mostly or wholly.
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But leanness doesn't defnitely exclude having fat. I DO HAVE the adipose tissue, probably over 10 pounds.
You don't look too thin, in my perception, and ten pounds sounds good.
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He is 94 years old.
He said it in the video. I'm not sure why 96 came in.
While a 60 or maybe even a 70 year old man might miraculously still retain all his original hair-colour, any one older is bound to be grey-haired, mostly or wholly.
Ann Wigmore's hair was brown in her early eighties, I never saw roots (although she might have been putting wheat grass on for conditioner), we did speak up close regularly, and I had excellent vision especially for near. I think Jack's hair looks dyed too though. It's not just food that helps keep one young and alive anyway. He looks pretty good. I still wouldn't believe what he eats unless I see it myself. We all know he juices, and that's raw low fiber.
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Yes, you can eat sweet potatoes raw, and they are good, but if you buy a bad batch they may be bleh.
I don't get much energy from raw sweet potatoes, in fact they slow me down. And according to my food book here, they have trypsin inhibitors and other stuff, raw.
He said it in the video. I'm not sure why 96 came in.
Ann Wigmore's hair was brown in her early eighties, I never saw roots (although she might have been putting wheat grass on for conditioner), we did speak up close regularly, and I had excellent vision especially for near. I think Jack's hair looks dyed too though. It's not just food that helps keep one young and alive anyway. He looks pretty good. I still wouldn't believe what he eats unless I see it myself. We all know he juices, and that's raw low fiber.
That video is 2 years old. And yeah, good point. Ann Wigmore had dark haired color thanks to juicing.
I had to laugh when Jack Lalanne was mentioned. In that video, he certainly looks a pale, sickly shadow compared to certain, clearly photoshopped images I've seen of him of him elsewhere online. And " natural hair-colour at 96"?! -v l) l) l) Yeah, right l) Well, if anything, it does show what botox and other plastic surgery can do for you, if you've got the cash.
Well, he says his hair color is natural in his books and in fact it looks natural to me. He has never done botox. He's had a firm stance against plastic surgery since it began. He's done facial exercises for dozens of years to keep his face like it is.
As usual, the great Tyler, oh so very very smart and everyone else are idiots. :>
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Here's a little info re Jack Lalanne and his open-heart surgery, not exactly a sign of health:-
http://www.aolhealth.com/condition-center/heart-disease/jack-lalanne-open-heart-surgery
Well, it is reasonably certain that he dyes his hair, given that there is some vague mention online re his dyed hair. It seems pretty unlikely that he would retain hair-colour right up to 96.
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Could you eat the tubers raw? or would that just be gross and unhealthy?
most roots can be consumed raw, but the issue is complex because it weighs 'toxicity' with a certain kind of efficiency of processing. As a general rule, I wouldn't want to be consuming more than small amounts of raw starch based on what my stomach tells me alone in addition to science. If my goal was to be 100% raw and avoid all forms of cooking, I might eat some raw starch for variety of minerals and nutrients, but I doubt it would ever be beneficial as a major food source. In practical terms, even considering toxicity, if two people were forced to live off a very large quantity of starch, the person cooking would fare better even considering harmful biproducts of cooking (of which I personally believe is less in such foods than most others). In the context of weight gain or just merely having a large supplemental calorie source to raw meat (as opposed to say raw fruits or fats or plant fats) it by far would compare poorly to cooked.
I've looked into fermentation of root vegetables, and other than some similarly small shavings of carrot/beet etc in kim-chis, most fermentation I have seen practiced with whole yams and such has also involved cooking!? You can look into just cutting them open and letting them rot, but I still seriously doubt you could uptake alot of food comfortably this way either.
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IMO that doesn't really matter, because there are plethora of bald men who are much healthier and who live longer than those who have got hair. The same is with the colour of hair.
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most roots can be consumed raw, but the issue is complex because it weighs 'toxicity' with a certain kind of efficiency of processing.
There was a discussion on the paleofood list where it was suggested that most tubers needed to be cooked in order to be edible - otherwise antinutrient-levels would rise, causing long-term problems. I know Wrangham used the issue of tubers in the human diet to support his bizarre claim that cooking must have occurred much earlier.
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Here's a little info re Jack Lalanne and his open-heart surgery, not exactly a sign of health:-
http://www.aolhealth.com/condition-center/heart-disease/jack-lalanne-open-heart-surgery
Well, it is reasonably certain that he dyes his hair, given that there is some vague mention online re his dyed hair. It seems pretty unlikely that he would retain hair-colour right up to 96.
Most often heart valve surgery is had at age 60 and the healthier you are, the later you have to have it done. And it's usually due to a common birth defect.
Reasonably certain? That's your opinion. Vague mentions? That's a lie. I googled the shit out of it and found it nowhere. Provide a reference before you make such a claim.
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Yuli is pretty thin at her height. Being that thin is probably vata constitution (extremist). Vata is the constitution of very old people....
Lol, I may be closer to Vata in my constitution, but nothing like an old person ;) besides I never look extremely thin or feeble in any way, I agree anything in extreme - either fat or too thin, is not good at all - I am hyper usually but have periods of extreme calmness, I also retain ability to exercise and have endurance even when I don't train, and am fairly resistant to illness, which I believe are good trait to have. I am also extremely flexible and believe I have very 'rubber-like' bones, as I meantioned there were times I should have broken a bone but I haven't. My mom is very petite woman but had no problems having me, I have been pregnant few times and easily get pregnant, also my period never stopped or diminished with my low weight - a sign a woman is too thin could be if her periods are affected by it. I don't think I'll have any issues having a baby - like my mom. Its mostly just genetics, my dad is tall and lean (but very strong guy, big arms and chest - thin everywhere else) and my mom is a petite woman, so its no surprise as their kid I am petite. I think thats all there is too it really.
Yes I do try and gain a few pounds in the winter but its common sense, if your thin and healthy its normal to fluctuate your weight with seasons, many wild animals will do that too, and purposely pig out before winter. Cooked starches are my way of speeding up the weight gain process and making it a no-brainer, and even then I just get a extra 6-8 pounds and then I am satisfied for the winter - its never a drastic change. In the spring I quickly revert myself to being slightly thinner because that what feels good for me physically.
I do notice though that some warm and cooked foods make me feel very good especially in the winter, and I believe many "Vata's" have the same experience, this is the reason why I still eat them. If people think we have absolutely had NO time to adapt to cooked foods think again, some of us do very well with inclusion of the right cooked foods as long as they are not neolithic - and just handle things better with inclusion of some warm cooked foods in their diet. Although I of course can and will eat much of it raw anyways. But being tall and lean, a pot of hot, spicy all-meat chili or baked potatoes with butter is sometimes pure bliss (and not just cause of opiods, it literally fills me with energy and warmth), for people of other constitution I can imagine how they would not do well with any of these cooked items.
I can say I am definitely more raw in the summer and more cooked in the winter, and there is no mystery as to why.
I don't get much energy from raw sweet potatoes, in fact they slow me down. And according to my food book here, they have trypsin inhibitors and other stuff, raw.
I only eat them raw as snacks but yeah, when cooked potatoes (both sweet and white) become very digestible and energy giving - thin people may benefit from them during certain times thats for sure. If I am having a meal of starch its cooked, except the sweet root radishes those actually ARE excellent raw. Sometimes I make a potato salad of cooked white potato and raw greens, the both together cause no issue. Some cooked starches are also a great "fat delivery vehicle" when you eat them with fat. Also I find that spicy foods benefit me, some people do very badly with spicy foods, I do well with them, its all about finding the foods that are good for you, who cares about what others can eat or can't.
I don't now much about Jack but how about comparing him to a 94 year old who eats raw paleo? Before delving too much about his looks, cmon hes 94 man, he looks fine and if he dyes his hair so what. Its not a big deal getting gray hair - much of it is genetic.
...if two people were forced to live off a very large quantity of starch, the person cooking would fare better even considering harmful biproducts of cooking (of which I personally believe is less in such foods than most others). In the context of weight gain or just merely having a large supplemental calorie source to raw meat (as opposed to say raw fruits or fats or plant fats) it by far would compare poorly to cooked. ...
For sure, it would be like night and day. Personally eating many raw fruits in winter (anything more them one small one a day, preferably zero though) makes me feel disgusting, but cooked starches and roots make me feel nice. In summer I will go ahead and replace nearly all these back with seasonal fruits, which produce the right cooling effect for the summer.
...I know Wrangham used the issue of tubers in the human diet to support his bizarre claim that cooking must have occurred much earlier.
Its not so bizarre an idea, we have had plenty of time to at least form some adaptation to eat cooked potatoes and roots, its was done early enough lets say. As soon as fire was discovered so was cooking, thats a lot of time for us to adapt given how quickly humans can adapt to their environments and different diets. Its when we start cooking everything and then adding and cooking neolithic foods that causes trouble. Some things we will just never fully adapt to, some things we will.
Remember what may make you feel like death, may be life giving to a person of different constitution.
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Also talking about Vatas...some demanding physical sports even favor this type.
Two that pop in my mind right away are marathoners (think persistence hunting), and flexibility gymnastics (think...erm...ninjas and tree dwellers :o ) - people excelling in that are usually quite thin, yet try to do what they do with any ease.
All physical compositions can be necessary at one time or other - another way nature helped us have a way of always surviving as a species lol
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IMO that doesn't really matter, because there are plethora of bald men who are much healthier and who live longer than those who have got hair. The same is with the colour of hair.
Yeah,I mean Ronald Reagan had the best hair I've ever seen.And how was his health? l)
I'd be willing to bet that Jack dyes his hair.Fake orange color is a dead give away ;) But,at least the hair is real.
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I do notice though that some warm and cooked foods make me feel very good especially in the winter (...)
I can say I am definitely more raw in the summer and more cooked in the winter, and there is no mystery as to why.
The same is with my Polish friend, but he doesn't eat any starchy foods like potatoes. He cooks more meat in winter and eats more raw ones in summer.
In my case I realized that I can eat very cold muscle-meats, organ-meats straight from the fridge even in winter. ;D
Fruits like all sorts of berries, grapes, apples I do prefer when they are colder
Look at the Nenets - they even eat frozen fish and meats when the temperature is -50 degrees C.
Personally eating many raw fruits in winter (anything more them one small one a day, preferably zero though) makes me feel disgusting, but cooked starches and roots make me feel nice. In summer I will go ahead and replace nearly all these back with seasonal fruits, which produce the right cooling effect for the summer.
I eat fruits every day in winter and haven't got any problems. And honey from time to time - acacia one is really warming.
Its not so bizarre an idea, we have had plenty of time to at least form some adaptation to eat cooked potatoes and roots, its was done early enough lets say. As soon as fire was discovered so was cooking, thats a lot of time for us to adapt given how quickly humans can adapt to their environments and different diets. Its when we start cooking everything and then adding and cooking neolithic foods that causes trouble. Some things we will just never fully adapt to, some things we will.
Adaptation doesn't necessarily mean that cooked starches are healthy. One could be adapted to digest them well, but in the long term could have some health problems because of them.
When it comes to fire it had been used mainly to warm people in cold environment, not to cook. Cooking was introduced much more later.
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Its not so bizarre an idea, we have had plenty of time to at least form some adaptation to eat cooked potatoes and roots, its was done early enough lets say. As soon as fire was discovered so was cooking, thats a lot of time for us to adapt given how quickly humans can adapt to their environments and different diets. Its when we start cooking everything and then adding and cooking neolithic foods that causes trouble. Some things we will just never fully adapt to, some things we will.
Remember what may make you feel like death, may be life giving to a person of different constitution.
You are mistaken. Cooking was only started around 250,000 years ago, with fire being invented a couple of hundred thousand years earlier or so. That is the main concensus among palaeoanthropologists - the wrangham claims re cooking being invented millions of years ago have no solid evidence to back them, and he admits as much in 1 interview. Plus, length of time does not remotely guarantee adaptation to any foods - PaleoPhil, a while back, made reference to the fact that pandas have been eating bamboo for millions of years yet still have not adapted to bamboo properly, given their carnivorous digestive systems etc. So no guarantee exists whatsoever that humans could have adapted to cooked foods ; worse still, cooked foods are not just merely a different type of raw food, so, logically, it would take far longer(if ever) to adapt to unnatural cooked foods than for a wild animal to , say, switch from a raw, natural herbivorous diet to a raw, natural carnivorous one.
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Most often heart valve surgery is had at age 60 and the healthier you are, the later you have to have it done. And it's usually due to a common birth defect.
Reasonably certain? That's your opinion. Vague mentions? That's a lie. I googled the shit out of it and found it nowhere. Provide a reference before you make such a claim.
I previously came across this reference:- "Martin Short's character Uncle Jack is based loosely on real-life 90-year-old fitness guru Jack LaLanne. Speech mannerisms, style of dress, and even the dyed jet-black hair are all trademarks of LaLanne, who, unlike Short's character, remains extremely mobile and agile at the time of this episode's airing." from:-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367279/trivia
As for the open-heart surgery, I recall Schwarzenegger also being forced to have some similiar form of heart operation. Not sure, but I think some suggested, at the time, that it was due to S's past steroid abuse or some such.
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....Cooking was only started around 250,000 years ago, with fire being invented a couple of hundred thousand years earlier or so...
Thats more then enough time to learn how to eat baked potatoes and use them with great efficiency. Even though, I really suspect we tried cooking the second that we learned to make a fire, because those people were hungry much of the time.
...so, logically, it would take far longer(if ever) to adapt to unnatural cooked foods than for a wild animal to , say, switch from a raw, natural herbivorous diet to a raw, natural carnivorous one...
I don't see the logic in that, my cat would do much better on cooked meats and fishes and would like, die in two weeks on a herbivorous diet.
Same with wild cats...of course they need it raw cause of taurine.
I am not arguing to cook our food is best. But some people do very well on certain cooked foods, and they can live over 100 years, without bad health and disease, if they include only the right cooked foods, to me thats called adaptation.
Adaptation doesn't necessarily mean that cooked starches are healthy...
No it doesn't mean anything, if you adapted an antelope to eat raw meat they may be able too - but it won't be healthy, doesn't mean raw meat isn't healthy. We're not antelopes, or cats, or pandas, or bears...
Look at the Nenets - they even eat frozen fish and meats when the temperature is -50 degrees C.
Yes, they also eat lots of fats, and importantly drink freshly slaughtered blood (very important, its how wild cats are able to do well!), also they seasonally eat whale blubber I think? If I had fresh warm blood and high quality fat from sea mammals, well, I may be eating less tubers, you gotta make the best of what you have and its possible. By the way they salt a lot of their fish, which it how we often buy it at the Russian store here ;)
EDIT: I meant cats would do better on a cooked meat diet VS a vegetarian one....not VS raw meat diet lol
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EDIT: I meant cats would do better on a cooked meat diet VS a vegetarian one....not VS raw meat diet lol
I had a cat when I was vegan that I gave canned catfood, raw eggs, boxed "cat" milk and she always snuck vegetables off my plate and ate them. She especially liked raw tomatoes and raw avocados. She ate them everyday, in addition to her catfood. I guess she thought she was omnivorous. More likely she just needed more raw food, an egg a day for raw wasn't enough. She was an indoor cat.
All physical compositions can be necessary at one time or other - another way nature helped us have a way of always surviving as a species lol
I didn't mean that you aged early or anything. I was very vata much of my life. In ayurveda vata dosha is associated with people of advanced years. It doesn't mean they're haggard. It means they're quick, slim, bright etc. Generally vatas are told to eat their vegetables cooked, in ayurveda, and not to go overboard on fruit. Also vatas are actually told to eat meats like beef, whereas the other two doshas are told to avoid meats like beef. I agree with you too, it's best to be tri-doshic. They say it is hardest to balance that way, but I think it is the healthiest anyway. That's one thing I like about eating RAFs. It seems to get me to be more of a tridoshic balance. Have you read much in ayurveda?
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Some cats will eat the weirdest things... yesterday mine stole a few fried pieces of butter-fried jalapeno pepper, very spicy, and he is on raw meat and an outdoor cat! wtf... :P He acted pretty revved up after, and his eyes were extra round, lol
I don't know too much about ayurveda, but it does seem it may be best to be in the middle of all the compositions. You would have best chance of survival, but you can never be sure of these things, sometimes its good to be jack of all trades, and sometimes it can be useful to excel in one area even if you are not so good in others. Its a lot to think about, lol
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There was a discussion on the paleofood list where it was suggested that most tubers needed to be cooked in order to be edible - otherwise antinutrient-levels would rise, causing long-term problems. I know Wrangham used the issue of tubers in the human diet to support his bizarre claim that cooking must have occurred much earlier.
yeah. heh, ultimately I don't think eating raw starch is the greatest thing. I think many types are 'edible' in that you can break them down somewhat and uptake some of the nutrition. Like I said, for someone on 100% raw diet, there could in fact be some net-positive to eating some daikon or yam in its raw state -and certainly carrots etc.. and avoid much issue with antinutrients, but any abundant quantity would causes problems probably prior to anti-nutrients, and really just wouldn't be particularly useful in general as a staple food source.
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nice new pic yuli, you chameleon. I mean, I would use fire with you.
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Thats more then enough time to learn how to eat baked potatoes and use them with great efficiency. Even though, I really suspect we tried cooking the second that we learned to make a fire, because those people were hungry much of the time.
Not likely. Tribesmen before the advent of fire, would have had no clue cooked food was even edible and would have taken much longer to even try putting raw foods into a fire by design. If they had been hungry, then logically, they would have automatically eaten foods raw, as that was what they were used to.
Previous to that, they would only have eaten burnt food thrown into a fire by accident, an extremely unlikely happening. Plus, technological advancement in the Palaeolithic era was notoriously slow(for example, things like bows and arrows, traps and such, are thought not to have been invented and commonly used until c.60,000 years ago or so, according to 1 anthropologist). Also, even once cooking was discovered, it would have taken a long time for it to become widespread and mostly practiced. Even then, note that many Arctic tribes eat diets very high in raw foods, even after several hundred thousand years of cooking.
I don't see the logic in that, my cat would do much better on cooked meats and fishes and would like, die in two weeks on a herbivorous diet.
It all depends on how severely carnivorous etc. an animal is. But the point, re the giant panda, is that an animal can eat a food most of the time, whether raw or cooked, and still survive on it, even if it is wholly unadapted to such a food and gets health-problems therefrom.The cooked-meat example is really, really bad, as Pottenger showed that cats actually started suffering very serious health-problems, along with subsequent generations of cats, as soon as they were fed on exclusive diets of cooked meats, due to getting taurine-deficiency. Only cooked foods artificially supplemented with taurine solved that problem.
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nice new pic yuli, you chameleon. I mean, I would use fire with you.
Thanks, no no fire, I am better raw, lol
The cooked-meat example is really, really bad, as Pottenger showed that cats actually started suffering very serious health-problems, along with subsequent generations of cats, as soon as they were fed on exclusive diets of cooked meats, due to getting taurine-deficiency. Only cooked foods artificially supplemented with taurine solved that problem.
Yes I know that part, taurine is essential for cats, but not essential for people. That is why people in cold climates can eat large portions of frozen meat, its a preservation method and they don't suffer ill-health from it. However if cats were fed exclusively frozen raw meat, they'd start developing the same problems, we can eat meat all frozen they can't. To them freezing meat is pretty much cooking meat. Cooking food depletes nutrients, but not completely, some of those are essential - some not so much - some can be replaced in other foods. And how many AGEs are produced after baking a potato (without incinerating it)? What is the answer? Is it too much for us, we don't know cause we don't have an answer, I suspect for some its ok...Potato is not as nutritious as raw met, but when you are already supplemented with nutritious foods its fine. We don't need THAT many nutrients, we'll be ok, well most of us anyway...Its good to learn from our ancestors, but we don't actually have to duplicate our diet, we can but its not even necessary, some ancestral diets wern't perfect either, nature is not perfect always, its progressive, I think there are ok modern foods which can be eaten along with raw foods, but I agree most things are not a good idea to eat.
Here is a photo of my dad, was taken last summer, I cropped off his face cause he may get mad if he finds himself on a forum and then I'll be sorry lol... But notice his manly shape (despite the cooked food and hormones he eats), long legs (he is like tall african) and well muscled upper body. He excels at both biking and swimming (allways in lakes and natural waters though), he has never set foot in a gym, he is 50 here! And he wasn't even healthy and fit his whole life, at one point he drank lots and never moved and smoked too much cause of work, now he never drinks, but thats not the point, he spends large amount of time programming on computer too, he eats lots of cooked meat, cooked whole grains (not as many as SAD people eat though), cooked veggies, lot of raw veggies and fruits, lots of coffee, tons of potatos, tons of cooked eggs and quite often a piece of cake or dumplings ( :P ), oh and he still smokes ciggs, but he makes many men half his age look pathetic. He has no health problems, from what I see he has more then enough testosterone, he is 50...so you see, some people have adapted pretty well...if you are searching for some kind of perfection or oasis then fine, but its easy to have excellence for many, even when including cooked foods...perfection...well thats a different story, apparently wild animals haven't achieved perfection either despite their natural diets, some can't resist diseases, get wiped out by other animals or disease, some still get cancers etc
(http://uphaze.info/misc/dad.png)
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how about "dam darling you make me forget about AGEs"?
"you make me want to be a better caveman."
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how about "dam darling you make me forget about AGEs"?
LOL, its probably ok to not think about them all the time, maybe AGE's can absorb by only thinking about them! Has anyone considered that, AGE placebo hello! :D
Hmm that makes me wonder, how much AGEs are absorbed from your digestive system and how many pass through. You'd have to measure the AGE in a food, eat it on an empty stomach, wait to take a shit, then measure the AGE in the shit. Is there an experiment as such?
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Yes I know that part, taurine is essential for cats, but not essential for people. That is why people in cold climates can eat large portions of frozen meat, its a preservation method and they don't suffer ill-health from it. However if cats were fed exclusively frozen raw meat, they'd start developing the same problems, we can eat meat all frozen they can't. To them freezing meat is pretty much cooking meat. Cooking food depletes nutrients, but not completely, some of those are essential -
Actually, freezing meats causes very little damage by comparison to cooking the meats. So cats could(and do) stay perfectly healthy when fed on prefrozen meats, once they are thawed - I am thinking of current cat-owners who feed their cats on prefrozen steaks etc. , because they are so much healthier than cooked meats or those ghastly highly processed pet food supplements.
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LOL, its probably ok to not think about them all the time, maybe AGE's can absorb by only thinking about them! Has anyone considered that, AGE placebo hello! :D
Hmm that makes me wonder, how much AGEs are absorbed from your digestive system and how many pass through. You'd have to measure the AGE in a food, eat it on an empty stomach, wait to take a shit, then measure the AGE in the shit. Is there an experiment as such?
ah, the old AGE in the shit test.
I think two things I have learned in regards to raw food to stay sane is to stop trying to figure out how other people remain healthy and vibrant, and also to keep in mind the pluses of raw or 100% raw over focusing on the negatives of cooked. There are so many factors that can make people healthy eating crap and unhealthy eating great.
I think my conclusion really is that little nutrition is needed technically for survival. I disagree of course with alot of raw vegan people that literally think there is no real nutrition in meat or cooked food. Its both the destructive potential of 'food' and the beneficial surplus of nutrition ( and in that I mean macro and micro) that need to be taken into account, esp with unhealthy people.
Despite this, I still think it makes sense to seek out the best nutrition one can (perhaps without being too anal), avoiding toxic food, and even have goals like being 100% raw, eating wild food, or whatever. The relevant issue here (I think) and perhaps to ForTheHunt, is that once someone is reasonably healthy, there might possibly be programs that will work better for certain goals than 100% raw. This is true particularly if one wants to narrow those further into ZC or subcategories or whatever as even if they work for someone they might not for others, or for those goals or health situations.
I mean even accepting all the negatives that could possibly be with cooked foods, or that we are not adjusted to them, or even one that I agree heavily that cooked foods can affect healing or even transit of raw foods - I think most people are going to accept there are going to be diets that contain cooked food that are healthier than some all raw permutations - even ones that include raw meat.
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Actually, freezing meats causes very little damage by comparison to cooking the meats. So cats could(and do) stay perfectly healthy when fed on prefrozen meats, once they are thawed - I am thinking of current cat-owners who feed their cats on prefrozen steaks etc. , because they are so much healthier than cooked meats or those ghastly highly processed pet food supplements.
nooo...cats fed exclusively FROZEN meat will develop problems later in life JUST like on cooked meat...that is why ALL recipes for frozen raw cat food stress the fact of putting taurine in it, and fish oil as well, and calcium -\ because they will get similar problems to cooked diet. Frozen meat may be "healthier" for you, but not for your cat. I personally like fresh or aged meat above frozen, and I prefer rare and preserved/salted/smoked over frozen. Even though for humans its ok.
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Didn't have time to read up on all the replies but have you been lifting while low carb?
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nooo...cats fed exclusively FROZEN meat will develop problems later in life JUST like on cooked meat...that is why ALL recipes for frozen raw cat food stress the fact of putting taurine in it, and fish oil as well, and calcium -\ because they will get similar problems to cooked diet. Frozen meat may be "healthier" for you, but not for your cat. I personally like fresh or aged meat above frozen, and I prefer rare and preserved/salted/smoked over frozen. Even though for humans its ok.
Please provide a link to a scientific study proving this assertion. Until today, I had not come across such a claim. A quick check online mentions someone who's been feeding their cats prefrozen raw meats for years without issues, and some comments stating that, while cooking has been proven to destroy taurine, that claims that freezing destroys taurine are still unproven.
I don't doubt that cats cannot handle meats that are very cold, but once thawed , they should not be an issue.
Here is another comment to a question re taurine and frozen meats, making a pertinent point:- "i Robin,
I don't know of any evidence that taurine should self-decompose or seriously react with air, for instance. It is generally classified as a stable chemical, under "normal" temperature and pressure. It does contain a sulphonic acid group in the molecule, though, and that makes it a fairly powerful oxidant. This means, it will react with flammable materials - and you won't find those in a freezer... :-) But freezing will not affect it. But if you heat it above body temperature, it can easily find other chemicals to react with, so in cooked foods, it will be destroyed.
It is opposite of what the case is for vitamin E, for instance. Vitamin E will react with oxygen in the air, and thus destroy itself.
In all principle, freezing will cause everything in chemistry to become LESS ACTIVE, because lower temperature simply is the same as less vibration and less rotation of chemical molecules. It makes everything MORE STABLE. "
http://www.voernatuurlijk.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16903
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Didn't have time to read up on all the replies but have you been lifting while low carb?
Not low carb. Either high fat or raw carb.
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I previously came across this reference:- "Martin Short's character Uncle Jack is based loosely on real-life 90-year-old fitness guru Jack LaLanne. Speech mannerisms, style of dress, and even the dyed jet-black hair are all trademarks of LaLanne, who, unlike Short's character, remains extremely mobile and agile at the time of this episode's airing." from:-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367279/trivia
As for the open-heart surgery, I recall Schwarzenegger also being forced to have some similiar form of heart operation. Not sure, but I think some suggested, at the time, that it was due to S's past steroid abuse or some such.
No. Like I said. Most people who have heart valve surgery are born with a defect. Schwarzenegger was born with a bicuspid aortic valve which is said defect.
Don't know why I bother arguing with you. Can't beat crazy.
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Have you tried 50% fruit and the rest from animal protein and fat? It seems to work for me.
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Have you tried 50% fruit and the rest from animal protein and fat? It seems to work for me.
Yeah, I tried it for weeks. It gives me indigestion, doesn't go well together in the same day for me
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@TD its common knowledge, you MUST add taurine to frozen meat and taurine reduces drastically in meat by freezing. I am not going to find specific comment and studies I have no time now, I joined the "rawcat" yahoo group and of course people there supplement with fresh meats and taurine, every cat lover knows to do it. You can supplement with fresh heart as well thats high in taurine. Many people do that.
Some cats may be ok eating frozen meat only, many cats are ok on high grade commercial foods too (like the expensive grain-free ones), so what, for every claim you find that a cat can eat all frozen without supplements I'll find you plenty that they can live fine from grain-free commercial food, but no one feeds all frozen without supplementing, if you wanna try it with your cat go ahead, I wouldn't, my cats get fresh meat, and cooked or frozen meat as treats only.
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@TD its common knowledge, you MUST add taurine to frozen meat and taurine reduces drastically in meat by freezing. I am not going to find specific comment and studies I have no time now, I joined the "rawcat" yahoo group and of course people there supplement with fresh meats and taurine, every cat lover knows to do it. You can supplement with fresh heart as well thats high in taurine. Many people do that.
Some cats may be ok eating frozen meat only, many cats are ok on high grade commercial foods too (like the expensive grain-free ones), so what, for every claim you find that a cat can eat all frozen without supplements I'll find you plenty that they can live fine from grain-free commercial food, but no one feeds all frozen without supplementing, if you wanna try it with your cat go ahead, I wouldn't, my cats get fresh meat, and cooked or frozen meat as treats only.
Well, clearly some do and have fed their cats on only frozen meats, given mention thereof online. I suspect this is an urban legend. Even some sites making a vague claim re taurine and frozen meats seem to be sure that freezing only degrades part of the taurine, unlike cooking. Well, it's an interesting matter, so I will ask some prey-model-oriented experts re this issue. maybe I'll get a response in a few days.
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Seems there are plenty of prey model experts for dogs, but no easy way to ask questions re cats and prey model diets. All I can find are vague comments about freezing not degrading taurine to any appreciable extent, and the point about raw, ground meat enabling taurine to degrade rapidly, due to oxidation.
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Yeah, I tried it for weeks. It gives me indigestion, doesn't go well together in the same day for me
Im assuming you were mono-ing? I always make sure I only eat meat about 45 minutes to an hour after a fruit meal. And if i eat meat I wont eat fruit for 3-4 hours after. Otherwise my stomach hurts! If you have tried both of those I guess your body just wants starch, nothing wrong with that.
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Cats and dogs need bone meal added to their meat: http://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm (http://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm)
Cats need arachidic acid http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146%2Fannurev.nu.04.070184.002513 (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146%2Fannurev.nu.04.070184.002513)
Cats should not have more than 1.50% "units dry matter basis" in their food of methionine.
Cats should not have more than 2000 "units dry matter basis" in their food of zinc.
Cats should not have more than 750000 "units dry matter basis" in their food of vit a. Their A should also be animal based.
Cats should not have more than 10000 "units dry matter basis" in their food basis of vit d. Their D should also be animal based.
All cats need dietary taurine to live a normal length lifespan. Humans only have to have it with certain heart and nerve conditions.
Cats should avoid being given fresh water fish, it can be low in vit b1 or thiamine (similar to PD for humans all advised not to eat fresh water fish started several years ago).
They don't need as much carbs or fat to eat as we do. Cats also need to eat certain organ meats more than we need to.
Excellent info: http://rawmeatcatfood.com/category/cat-nutrition/page/2/ (http://rawmeatcatfood.com/category/cat-nutrition/page/2/) I don't fully agree, but I'm no expert.
cats fed exclusively FROZEN meat will develop problems later in life JUST like on cooked meat...that is why ALL recipes for frozen raw cat food stress the fact of putting taurine in it, and fish oil as well, and calcium -\ because they will get similar problems to cooked diet. Frozen meat may be "healthier" for you, but not for your cat. I personally like fresh or aged meat
Cats have a number of needs nutritionally different than most people. Also, fewer felines live in arctic environments that canines and humans. Maybe that's why we may do better on frozen meats than them. I don't eat frozen meats (as per PD). I bought some nice halal pasture raised chicken a while back, and something happened to my fridge and it froze it. I didn't want to try frozen, so I gave it to my cats. They wouldn't eat it either. We and dogs can eat aged meats and may even prefer or do better on aged meats. Cats prefer fresh meat.
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Thanks for the links, I notice most of the cat "recipes" concentrate on grinding and blending it all into mush. Its nutritious but doesn't allow them to use their teeth, I often just give my cats large pieces, either half a fresh chicken leg, or very large meat chunks, this has the benefit of allowing them to exercise and clean their teeth - which is very important. My female cat throws up easily (shes been like that all her life), she is very small, eats fast, never chews and will sometimes (not always) throw up right after eating, this happens when she eats raw meat too fast too. But she rarely does that when I feed her large chunks, cause she can't inhale them so fast! I think something happens when they are chewing and working their teeth and saliva instead of just inhaling a rawmeat fudge, I think its good to alternate, give them ground mush with all the supplements and then give them big fresh chunks for their next meal, I love seeing them chew and rip at it too... :P
I use eggshells instead of the bonemeal, my male cat has been getting very muscly and shiny lately, they both love the raw meat by now, as long as its fresh or even slightly aged. If its good meat they will eat it even after it has sat out in my room for a day and dried a bit.
On the rawcat group, I see mostly people feeding large whole chunks, like whole chicken legs and whole baby chicks!
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Thanks for the links, I notice most of the cat "recipes" concentrate on grinding and blending it all into mush. Its nutritious but doesn't allow them to use their teeth, I often just give my cats large pieces, either half a fresh chicken leg ...On the rawcat group, I see mostly people feeding large whole chunks, like whole chicken legs and whole baby chicks!
Like I said, I don't agree with it all. There were other parts like that too. I'm writing recipes for all the family tonight. I'm leaving the cats out. I don't believe recipes are really good for them.
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In the northern regions eating prefrozen meat is 100% natural.
Right now it's -8 degrees C outside my house, so how do you imagine eating only fresh meat in paleo times? :o
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Regarding the "natural color" of Jack Lalanne hair...
From this video, it looks like Jack's hair is actually somewhat gray:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEdClu1KeC8