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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: Dima on December 26, 2010, 12:11:57 am

Title: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 26, 2010, 12:11:57 am
This is a brief description of my first time eating high-meat. I've made two batches:

a) Made from grass-fed beef, half of which was previous frozen and the other half was dry-aged on the refrigerator shelf. This meat did not ferment very-well in the fridge, so I left the jars opened on the counter for a few days and that seemed to get the process going. I aired the jars every day for 30 days and occassionally left them on the counter overnight.

b) Made from grass-fed lamb, never frozen. About 15 days old. Followed the same preparation process as above.


So on day 30 I decided to try it. The meat was foul smelling and moldy on the surface, but inside it was appetizingly red and somewhat dry. Is it normal for high meat to look like this? Beef tasted ok and the lamb was great! Briefly after eating it I felt a faint improvement in my alertness and felt very peaceful. Could've been my imagination though.

Toward the end of the day I felt very fatigued and the early evening I was having flu-like symptoms. I had fever, felt very disoriented and nauseous. I've had similar symptoms before when I had a serious food poisoning from a restaurant meal. The symptoms resolved on their own by about midnight and I felt good again.

I think the problem may have been due to the beef having been frozen and dried previously. Any thoughts? I think I'm going to ditch the beef and try eating the lamb in two weeks.

Finally, just something I've been pondering for a while: are the positive effects of high meats due to the improvement of gut flora, or are people just getting high from the toxins created by the bacteria?


THanks!
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 26, 2010, 12:27:30 am
Forgot to mention: also ate a raw mackerel that day, some ground beef, bone marrow, and a few egg yolks. I doubt the sickness was from any of these items as I eat them regularly and have never experienced any ill effects.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 26, 2010, 01:09:18 am
Well, this is the 1st time ever I have heard of someone having negative reactions to "high-meat". The only thing I can think of is that you might have tried "high-meat" too early on into the diet, and were simply experiencing some minor temporary form of detox.

As for the effects of "high-meat", the bacteria do not give out any toxins. Part of the benefit lies in the improved digestion provided by the extra bacteria in it, plus the bacteria simply stimulate the brain to increase serotonin levels, thus boosting concentration levels and improving mood.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 26, 2010, 01:31:58 am
Thanks for your reply, Tyler. I'll give myself some more time to adjust before trying the high meat again.

Is high meat typically red inside or is it "rotten" throughout?
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: ys on December 26, 2010, 01:32:12 am
i would not eat anything moldy. mold is not bacteria, and lots of fungus are actually harmful.  since you don't know what kind of mold is growing on the surface of your meat i would discard all moldy part.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 26, 2010, 01:35:35 am
Thanks for your reply, Tyler. I'll give myself some more time to adjust before trying the high meat again.

Is high meat typically red inside or is it "rotten" throughout?
  Well, if high-meat becomes aged for a very long period, it usually goes completely liquid and brown. But it's usually red-brown inside for the initial stages.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: goodsamaritan on December 26, 2010, 01:45:18 am
I stay away from molds too.
If your meat is moldy, the high meat making process may be in error.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: donrad on December 26, 2010, 03:18:33 am
There is a high probability you ate toxic substances in the meat. Salmonella is quite common even when you are not trying to create poisons. Your nose warned you.

Because there are a few people who have built up tolerance to these poisons over a long time does not make you immune.

Glad to hear you survived.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 26, 2010, 03:55:29 am
There is a high probability you ate toxic substances in the meat. Salmonella is quite common even when you are not trying to create poisons. Your nose warned you.

Because there are a few people who have built up tolerance to these poisons over a long time does not make you immune.

Glad to hear you survived.
  Rubbish, as no one else has mentioned getting such issues from high-meat, despite countless RVAFers having tried high-meat.. As for salmonella, AV debunked such notions when he cited a study which showed that 38 percent of american households contained salmonella, without the families present having any kind of salmonella epidemic:-

http://www.karlloren.com/Diabetes/p78.htm

http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p128.htm

Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: donrad on December 26, 2010, 06:21:04 am
If your dumb enough to try it again, may you rest in peace.

More than 125, 000 people are hospitalized, and 3,000 die from food-borne illnesses each year, according to data released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in December 2010. The findings were a slight improvement from a 1999 CDC report, that found approximately 1 in 4 Americans became sick from food, and 5,000 died annually.

Laboratory techniques and tracking methods of food-borne illnesses have improved since the 1990’s, noted Chris Braden, acting director of the division of food-borne, waterborne and environmental diseases. Food poisoning is a highly preventable health issue that costs billions of dollars, added Braden.

Salmonella is the number one food contaminant, causing nearly one-third of food-borne hospitalizations and deaths, according to CDC data. Salmonella is a bacterial disease that strikes the intestinal tract.


The most commonly recognized foodborne infections are those caused by the bacteria Campylobacter, Salmonella, and E. coli O157:H7, and by a group of viruses called calicivirus, also known as the Norwalk and Norwalk-like viruses.

Campylobacter is a bacterial pathogen that causes fever, diarrhea, and abdominal cramps.  It is the most commonly identified bacterial cause of diarrheal illness in the world.  These bacteria live in the intestines of healthy birds, and most raw poultry meat has Campylobacter on it.  Eating undercooked chicken, or other food that has been contaminated with juices dripping from raw chicken is the most frequent source of this  infection.

Salmonella is also a bacterium that is widespread in the intestines of birds, reptiles and mammals.  It can spread to humans via a variety of different foods of animal origin.  The illness it causes, salmonellosis, typically includes fever, diarrhea and abdominal cramps.  In persons with poor underlying health or weakened immune systems, it can invade the bloodstream and cause life-threatening infections.

E. coli O157:H7 is a bacterial pathogen that has a reservoir in cattle and other similar animals.  Human illness typically follows consumption of food or water that has been contaminated with microscopic amounts of cow feces.  The illness it causes is often a severe and bloody diarrhea and painful abdominal cramps, without much fever.   In 3% to 5% of cases, a complication called hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS) can occur several weeks after the initial symptoms.  This severe complication includes temporary anemia, profuse bleeding, and kidney failure.

Calicivirus, or Norwalk-like virus is an extremely common cause of foodborne illness, though it is rarely diagnosed, because the laboratory test is not widely available.  It causes an acute gastrointestinal illness, usually with more vomiting than diarrhea, that resolves within two days.  Unlike many foodborne pathogens that have animal reservoirs, it is believed that Norwalk-like viruses spread primarily from one infected person to another.  Infected kitchen workers can contaminate a salad or sandwich as they prepare it, if they have the virus on their hands.  Infected fishermen have contaminated oysters as they harvested them.

Some common diseases are occasionally foodborne, even though they are usually transmitted by other routes.  These include infections caused by Shigella, hepatitis A, and the parasites Giardia lamblia and Cryptosporidia.  Even strep throats have been transmitted occasionally through food.

In addition to disease caused by direct infection, some foodborne diseases are caused by the presence of a toxin in the food that was produced by a microbe in the food.  For example, the bacterium Staphylococcus aureus can grow in some foods and produce a toxin that causes intense vomiting.  The rare but deadly disease botulism occurs when the bacterium Clostridium botulinum grows and produces a powerful paralytic toxin in foods.  These toxins can produce illness even if the microbes that produced them are no longer there.

Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 26, 2010, 06:39:54 am
The trouble with the ridiculous claims above, is that if any of them were actually true, the RVAF diet community would by now have experienced vast food-poisoning epidemics on a constant basis - yet none such have happened.

Frankly, I find it sad that you would try to make  such useless scaremongering claims to a newbie given that "high-meat" has been so beneficial to so many RVAFers in the past.

*You remind me of that very foolish Conservative MP, Edwina Currie, who needlessly scared the British nation with a hysterical mention of a totally nonexistent Salmonella epidemic in British eggs.She was henceforth mercilessly labelled by the media  as "Eggwina" for her appalling mistake.*
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: ys on December 26, 2010, 06:58:34 am
Quote
The trouble with the ridiculous claims above

they are not ridiculous.  he is simply saying that food including meat, fresh or aged, can be contaminated by harmful pathogens.  food poisoning is real and hundreds of people died after eating uncooked contaminated food.  you don't know where Dima got his meat, so claiming that it is totally harmless is in fact ridiculous.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 26, 2010, 07:03:54 am
they are not ridiculous.  he is simply saying that food including meat, fresh or aged, can be contaminated by harmful pathogens.  food poisoning is real and hundreds of people died after eating uncooked contaminated food.  you don't know where Dima got his meat, so claiming that it is totally harmless is in fact ridiculous.
   Well, all the instructions re high-meat make it clear that raw grassfed meat is to be used, so usage of other meats would not make any sense and would not indicate that genuine " high-meat" was dangerous. As for the food-poisoning epidemics claim, Aajonus has already quite correctly pointed out that the statistics behind food-poisoning claims are heavily exaggerated to the point of being outright fraudulent. ¨Excerpt from the above link I gave:-
"Peter Barton Hutt, a former chief counsel for the Food and Drug Administration ("FDA"), now a lecturer on food safety at Harvard University, is a long ­critic of the numbers. "The statistics are all over the place" he says,  "because none of them are any good. They are all wild guesses. What people do is gather statistics of reported cases and extrapolate from there. It then all depends on what multiple you choose."

Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: ys on December 26, 2010, 07:41:24 am
first, aajonus is not an authority of any kind, at least to me, his claims are wild guesses to me as well.
second, we are not talking about epidemics, just about 1000 cases per year that are believed to happen in the US.
this number is extrapolated from reports like this http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479624,00.html because most of the cases are not being reported.  this is a statistical guess not a wild guess.

if you do not believe in this number that's fine, we are not talking about statistics, we are not talking about rate of incident. the point is poisoning from contaminated food does happen even with raw grass-fed meat.
if you take raw grass-fed meat that has been contaminated when improperly handled by the butcher, then you will have contaminated aged meat.

remember Lex reported problems with some batches of ground meat that was supposedly grass-fed.  most likely it's been contaminated with some pathogenic stuff.  why couldn't it be in Dima's case?
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 26, 2010, 07:43:45 am
I ate 4 month old meat with mold. :/

would never use that to validate it for others. I said in the other thread that even with whatever benefits of high meat..there should certainly be some serious discussion or thought on the part of the individual.

I think the only thing blatantly wrong with above is that the smell indicates that it is bad. I can tell the batches I tried to make recently in my new fridge were indeed bad based on the -type- of smell, but successful high-meat is of course going to be smelling and unappealing. of course! This isn't to say that all things that are expired and smell bad - havn't been taken care of - are going to be 'high' or good at all.

I tend to think what amounts to food poisoning like many 'viruses' and such is in fact some kind of detox brought out in a chaotic environment. that doesn't preclude the possibility that these things (like flues) might cause extreme discomfort or death. But the scaremongering with food poising indeed doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense, because this can indeed be linked to fresh meats, chicken etc...as being dangerous...if not equally.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Stancel on December 26, 2010, 08:36:53 am
Well, this is the 1st time ever I have heard of someone having negative reactions to "high-meat". The only thing I can think of is that you might have tried "high-meat" too early on into the diet, and were simply experiencing some minor temporary form of detox.

As for the effects of "high-meat", the bacteria do not give out any toxins. Part of the benefit lies in the improved digestion provided by the extra bacteria in it, plus the bacteria simply stimulate the brain to increase serotonin levels, thus boosting concentration levels and improving mood.

what about mycotoxins?


Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: yuli on December 26, 2010, 08:46:10 am
I think if you made meat that had some harmful stuff in it "high" the pathogens and whatever would just increase, so it would make it more dangerous.
I don't like scaremongering either but at the same time I believe you can get poisoning from any meat and high meat too, just cause its high it doesn't make it good it may make it a LOT more dangerous.

Tyler just because "countless RVAFers" don't complain about any problems with high meat does not mean its 100% safe, some people may still get poisoned by it. How do you know that a few weren't poisoned that just didn't post it on the forums for everyone? There might be a small chance like 5% that the fermentation goes wrong and then you get poisoned. Its a delicate process. Countless people smoke and only a few will get lung cancer...what if only 2000 people in the world smoked? Then you may not hear any complaints of lung cancer but countless people saying that it makes them feel all revved up and good. I know its an extreme analogy but just because YOU don't hear of anyone getting sick doesn't make it official especially when you say countless, how many people are eating really high meat, so many that they are countless? At least put an estimate on it man.

Like was mentioned let your nose tell you if its good or not, I age my meats slightly but only eat them if they still taste and smell at least acceptable, I would just feel wrong eating something that was that rotten and decomposed that its slimy and moldy and the mold doesn't smell good. I don't eat fruit like that, I don't eat any food that is in that much of a state of rottenness, so why would I wanna eat meat, my favorite food, in such a way...

And is there really a need to eat meat that is that rotten unless you have some serious issues with your gut? Is the "euphoria" you get from it that good that its worth eating meat so nasty that you have to swallow it and try not to gag? That just seems wrong somehow even though its apparently good.
I mean if I really wanna be euphoric I will have lots of sex, or take a small hit of LSD, take a sprint, or a shot of vodka or a glass of good red wine, all these things to me seem more enjoyable then eating meat that dogs and cats won't even touch. And if I really want some bacteria in my gut aged meat is enough, or eat some rotten foods that are enjoyable like sauerkraut. I doubt humans are built so weak they have to drink a rotten meat concoction in order to keep their flora good, sounds like bullshit to me.
So I think why do it then unless you enjoy eating meat that has turned into shit. I'd rather have raw meat that I enjoy.
But I have never tried to eat really high meat so maybe it is worth it, just don't look down upon me taking some LSD, or smoking some pot when you eat that damn slimy rotten crap, lol  >D

I suspect people that go on RDP think they must make themselves try this crap and keep trying it....and they have to start with small pieces of this crap of course, you can train yourself to start eating cooked foods the same way, just keep taking tiny pieces of some deep fried shit and you'll have some weird effects too. I just don't know why its thought of so highly to eat high meat, I will try it once and if its not as good as sex or taking some LSD then I am right, its not fucking worth it.  -v
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 26, 2010, 09:04:43 am
I suspect that high meat is still not as good as sex!  ;D Can't say about LSD - never tried.

The meat came from a whole 10lb grass-fed ribeye that was cryovaced. Thus, it was not exposed to contaminants at the butcher shop. I've eaten some of the slab cooked and raw and did not have any problems. I have eaten lots of the same cuts of beef from the same source (never cooked more then blood rare) and never had a problem. I don't think the meat was contaminated from the start.

I ate about 2 oz of it and like I said before the taste was actually good. I will give it another try because I am intrigued by the positive reports of others. To me it is not about getting high, but about seeking cure for things like ADD, which have a very serious impact on the quality of my life. I realize there are risks in this (as there are risks in eating raw meats), but the benefits seem to be worth it.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: yuli on December 26, 2010, 09:13:02 am
If it helps you with ADD it may then be well worth it, as with any drug be careful, yes I think its a drug whooptidoo
Not as good as sex then eh? Damn... :P
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: donrad on December 26, 2010, 09:33:02 am
The trouble with the ridiculous claims above, is that if any of them were actually true, the RVAF diet community would by now have experienced vast food-poisoning epidemics on a constant basis - yet none such have happened.


Actually there has been a vast food-poisoning epidemic caused by you. Since these people are dead they can not respond. Luckily this man survived long enough to ask the question: WTF??

By my calculations based on
The number of deaths is in the thousands. We will never know for sure because, of course, they are dead and can't tell us.

Have you no conscience Sir? Does a human life mean nothing to you?

Merry Christmas

Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 26, 2010, 09:41:18 am
I suspect that high meat is still not as good as sex!  ;D Can't say about LSD - never tried.

High meat is sooo better than sex..its effects are  "like butta" to quote Linda Richman.

j/k of course, as I never even experience true high's from the stuff, just escalated physical improvements like you suggest. Of which I guess are inconclusively linked. I think i'm past due for a dose of each!


The number of deaths is in the thousands. We will never know for sure because, of course, they are dead and can't tell us.

Have you no conscience Sir? Does a human life mean nothing to you?



don't you think this is just a little over the top? I'm willing to believe there are a few people or more with bad experiences that perhaps have never got their say to be part of tyler's sources, but likely not due to death just moving away from the lifestyle. And as I have said I actually am int he camp that believes at least some nasty effects are possible.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: yuli on December 26, 2010, 09:46:46 am
...The number of deaths is in the thousands. We will never know for sure because, of course, they are dead and can't tell us.

But how can you even guess that? If it is that high then surely there will be some people that almost died but survived long enough to say something.
The point is that we don't know, but following my instincts (which I happen to think count for something) ... high meat should be used in dire situations as it sounds like it can be dangerous at that level of decomposition (and I think a little people might have got sick but thats to be expected), and it sure fucking looks and smells like its not THAT safe (thats the main reason I don't eat it actually).

By the way the day after I take a small amount of clean LSD or shrooms I get similar effect of high mental alertness and awareness, and my movements are light and extra easy to do, sounds similar to the good high meat effect to me.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 26, 2010, 09:54:40 am
But how can you even guess that? If it is that high then surely there will be some people that almost died but survived long enough to say something.
The point is that we don't know, but following my instincts (which I happen to think count for something) ... high meat should be used in dire situations as it sounds like it can be dangerous at that level of decomposition (and I think a little people might have got sick but thats to be expected), and it sure fucking looks and smells like its not THAT safe (thats the main reason I don't eat it actually).

By the way the day after I take a small amount of clean LSD or shrooms I get similar effect of high mental alertness and awareness, and my movements are light and extra easy to do, sounds similar to the good high meat effect to me.

That's why I asked earlier if the effects of high-meat are just a narcotic high, caused by the toxins. But then I don't know anything about toxins, just thinking outloud.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 26, 2010, 09:56:19 am
But how can you even guess that? If it is that high then surely there will be some people that almost died but survived long enough to say something.


I feel pretty confident saying that if someones lifestyle was eating raw meat, and they had any sense of family or social ties - and died eating high meat, this would probably make the papers. That said, there have indeed been deaths linked to fresh meat - mostly amongst people who were not eating it regularly - to my knowledge. Anyone have any actual sources on this stuff?

Just on a basic level, even getting things like the shits from raw foods can be dehydrating and fatal or whatever I assume to someone. I mean some amount of caution is always going to be the default with this stuff for people in various conditions. I've had pretty bad reactions from oysters and chicken that left me in agony that was probably almost deserving of some kind of treatment. And so I only recommend caution with these things -not avoidance- as I tolerate them fine now and probably because of that experience. To me high meats can only compound things I propose because you are accelerating this paradigm and introducing something even more foreign. I stand by this 50%! :)
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 26, 2010, 10:03:09 am
Actually there has been a vast food-poisoning epidemic caused by you. Since these people are dead they can not respond. Luckily this man survived long enough to ask the question: WTF??

By my calculations based on
  • The high toxin levels in your high meat recipe
  • The low immune system resistance to these types of toxins in newbies
  • Your supposed credibility as Global Moderator
  • The number of years you have been promoting this crazy idea
  • The traffic on this website
  • The gullibility of a lot of the newbies

The number of deaths is in the thousands. We will never know for sure because, of course, they are dead and can't tell us.

Have you no conscience Sir? Does a human life mean nothing to you?

Merry Christmas



The point of my post was not to ask the question WTF?, but to seek guidance on where my preparation process may have gone wrong. My negative experience from high-meat was not a fight for survival. All I had was a mild sickness that went away on its own in a few hours. Your claims, Don, seem ridiculous. I get the same talk from my friends and co-workers when I order a rare steak at a restaurant: "That meat is full of parasites." When I ask them what parasites are present in the meat they give me the "deer in the headlights" look.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 26, 2010, 10:03:52 am
Actually there has been a vast food-poisoning epidemic caused by you. Since these people are dead they can not respond. Luckily this man survived long enough to ask the question: WTF??

By my calculations based on
  • The high toxin levels in your high meat recipe
  • The low immune system resistance to these types of toxins in newbies
  • Your supposed credibility as Global Moderator
  • The number of years you have been promoting this crazy idea
  • The traffic on this website
  • The gullibility of a lot of the newbies

The number of deaths is in the thousands. We will never know for sure because, of course, they are dead and can't tell us.

Have you no conscience Sir? Does a human life mean nothing to you?

Merry Christmas


I cannot believe that you could post such utterly psychotic, deluded nonsense. It is self-evident that if there really were such  epidemics with so many fatalities in the RVAF diet community, that they could not fail to be reported in the papers, with newspapers having a field-day, and TV reports all over the world on the subject., as most media despises such diets. Well, that is, unless you believe that little green aliens in their UFOs have been practising mind-control on all media outlets in order to suppress the information!

The way I see it, you are on your last warning. There is a certain level of integrity expected among members. While members can always make mistakes, or say something foolish in a fit of anger or whatever, the above is so clearly fraudulent a claim, and so deluded, that you clearly have no integrity whatsoever.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: yuli on December 26, 2010, 10:09:06 am
That's why I asked earlier if the effects of high-meat are just a narcotic high, caused by the toxins. But then I don't know anything about toxins, just thinking outloud.

Not sure as I have never had high meat. I am not saying its like most narcotics, for example cocaine or getting drunk I obviously feel bad effects and would not recommend coke or heavy drinking to anyone unless they are ok with the toxic effects otherwise  :o
However with LSD (which is actually one of the least toxic things on earth) and shrooms, in SMALL amounts I definitely feel that its similar to what people say of high meat, except I know with those things I won't get poisoned as I have tried them numerous times without ill-effects (unless you eat a great amount of them with would be dumb anyway)....with the high meat I don't know yet.
I think I have to try some verified good high meat and compare the effect! Yay a new experiment to try  ;D Now can anyone spare me a piece of verified good high meat? heh heh....Tyler you wanna mail me a piece as you seem to know how to make it well  :P

...To me high meats can only compound things I propose because you are accelerating this paradigm and introducing something even more foreign. I stand by this 50%! :)

LOL, yeah thats the main reason I am wary to try it, as its so concentrated, and because of that I put it into similar group as LSD and shrooms, it seems like very potent stuff that needs to be taken with care as you never know how another person will react to it, and it should be prepared by someone who knows what they are doing. Just cause I handle it ok doesn't mean my friend will have the same experience.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: laterade on December 26, 2010, 11:48:36 am
I cannot believe that you could post such utterly psychotic, deluded nonsense. It is self-evident that if there really were such  epidemics with so many fatalities in the RVAF diet community, that they could not fail to be reported in the papers, with newspapers having a field-day, and TV reports all over the world on the subject., as most media despises such diets. Well, that is, unless you believe that little green aliens in their UFOs have been practising mind-control on all media outlets in order to suppress the information!
The way I see it, you are on your last warning. There is a certain level of integrity expected among members. While members can always make mistakes, or say something foolish in a fit of anger or whatever, the above is so clearly fraudulent a claim, and so deluded, that you clearly have no integrity whatsoever.

He has been pissing me off for a while...
I would not be surprised to see the regulatory agencies creating accounts to push their nonsense into this forum in an attempt to stop the growth of our numbers.
(anyone who cites the CDC obviously has their head in the clouds)
Donrad, you appear to either be an impostor or totally ignorant.

Actually there has been a vast food-poisoning epidemic caused by you. Since these people are dead they can not respond. Luckily this man survived long enough to ask the question: WTF??

By my calculations based on
  • The high toxin levels in your high meat recipe
  • The low immune system resistance to these types of toxins in newbies
  • Your supposed credibility as Global Moderator
  • The number of years you have been promoting this crazy idea
  • The traffic on this website
  • The gullibility of a lot of the newbies

The number of deaths is in the thousands. We will never know for sure because, of course, they are dead and can't tell us.

Have you no conscience Sir? Does a human life mean nothing to you?

Merry Christmas

You are full of shit.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 26, 2010, 12:14:42 pm
not that i'm one to talk, but lets not fight fire with fire.

Maybe a lid was flipped above, but based on other contributions, its seems more out of concern for others than some kind of participation in government conspiracy. doesn't validate it either way, just saying.

---

yuli, that analogy makes sense to me, once someone knows how it works in their body, and the right parameters and methods, it probably becomes exponentially 'safer'.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: miles on December 26, 2010, 01:05:05 pm
Actup you're the one with your head in the clouds. Paranoid, fantasising that everyone's conspiring against you. Did you say you used to smoke a lot of weed? Ahh I've become Jeremy Kyle!

Dima said his meat was in a jar, so the bits touching the side are not going to be exposed to air, and she said it was green which in my experience(including reading other's experiences) only happens if the meat isn't exposed to fresh air...

Tyler, Donrad's not on his 'last warning'. He only wrote that extreme 'possibility' to counter your complete dismissal of some things which are actually fact. If in defending high-meat you're going to dismiss facts(even the fact that something is a possibility, not only the fact that something is a fact), then he has to counter in the extreme opposite. You're right defending aged-meat, and he's right in attacking rotten meat. But he's not attacking what you're defending, and you're not defending what he's attacking. Responding without properly reading what each other have written is what has allowed this thread to descend into such a mess.

I think the advice about smelling and tasting is good. I'd not eat anything without smelling and tasting it first. What is 'foul' however might change with time. Something may smell strong and different, but if you can taste it, chew it in your mouth, and despite it tasting so different still feel it's ok to eat, then it probably is.

It's alright when people are arguing, and one person perhaps argues more extremely than what he really believes, and then the other person does so in the opposite direction, because they still balance each other out. But you can't do that and then threaten to ban someone, because that destroys the equilibrium. If you want to be in a position to make such threats reasonably, you need to first make sure you are completely balanced yourself.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: michaelwh on December 26, 2010, 01:12:16 pm
I think the advice about smelling and tasting is good. I'd not eat anything without smelling and tasting it first. What is 'foul' however might change with time. Something may smell strong and different, but if you can taste it, chew it in your mouth, and despite it tasting so different still feel it's ok to eat, then it probably is.

One thing to keep in mind, is that our sense of taste and smell is highly influenced by our upbringing.

Stefansson described how the Eskimos loved rotten meat/fish, and compared it to a gourmet stinky cheese.

Although he is not the most credible source, Aajonus also described how Eskimo children loved high meat, and ate it like candy.

Therefore, it is plausible that we can not reliably use our sense of taste and smell to determine whether high meat is good for us.

It would be interesting to try out high meat on different pets/animals. I remember reading on forums, and also hearing from Aajonus, that in general, dogs, and poultry love high meat, but cat's don't like it.

I agree with Tyler and KD's responses to donrad.


More than 125, 000 people are hospitalized, and 3,000 die from food-borne illnesses each year, according to data released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in December 2010....etc etc etc....
Donrad,
The fearmongering that you posted can be applied equally well to fresh raw meat, or fresh raw vegetables. Have you ever eaten raw meat? Have you ever tried making high meat? Have you ever thought about these issues on your own? Do you speak from experience? Or are you just parroting some public health agency?
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: miles on December 26, 2010, 01:35:08 pm
Yeah Michaelw, I had some moist-aged meat just last night(kidney) that reminded me of the wet kind of blue cheese. I smelt it and tasted it like any meat, and I felt it was ok to eat, despite it tasting so different. It was enjoyable, as has been any meat I've eaten. If you can't smell something without recoiling, and chew it in your mouth without gagging, but still bolt it down, then it probably is going to cause you some (acutely)negative symptoms later.

Donrad,
The fearmongering that you posted can be applied equally well to fresh raw meat, or fresh raw vegetables. Have you ever eaten raw meat? Have you ever tried making high meat? Have you ever thought about these issues on your own? Do you speak from experience? Or are you just parroting some public health agency?

No, it couldn't apply. Donrad himself said that his nose warned him. The same wouldn't happen with fresh meat. Donrad is aware that all these bacteria are present everywhere, but also that in the wrong circumstances these bacteria can become out of control, which is when they can cause problems.

These bacteria are all over the place, but only in certain circumstances can they thrive and pose a threat(and even then that threat may be minor for healthy people). But it seems that the circumstances Dima created likely did facilitate the over-growth of bad-bacteria, but he was able to deal with it and recover fairly easily.

Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Iguana on December 26, 2010, 05:17:07 pm
Like was mentioned let your nose tell you if its good or not, I age my meats slightly but only eat them if they still taste and smell at least acceptable, I would just feel wrong eating something that was that rotten and decomposed that its slimy and moldy and the mold doesn't smell good. I don't eat fruit like that, I don't eat any food that is in that much of a state of rottenness, so why would I wanna eat meat, my favorite food, in such a way...

And is there really a need to eat meat that is that rotten unless you have some serious issues with your gut? Is the "euphoria" you get from it that good that its worth eating meat so nasty that you have to swallow it and try not to gag? That just seems wrong somehow even though its apparently good.
I mean if I really wanna be euphoric I will have lots of sex, or take a small hit of LSD, take a sprint, or a shot of vodka or a glass of good red wine, all these things to me seem more enjoyable then eating meat that dogs and cats won't even touch. And if I really want some bacteria in my gut aged meat is enough, or eat some rotten foods that are enjoyable like sauerkraut. I doubt humans are built so weak they have to drink a rotten meat concoction in order to keep their flora good, sounds like bullshit to me.
So I think why do it then unless you enjoy eating meat that has turned into shit. I'd rather have raw meat that I enjoy.
But I have never tried to eat really high meat so maybe it is worth it, just don't look down upon me taking some LSD, or smoking some pot when you eat that damn slimy rotten crap, lol  >D

I suspect people that go on RDP think they must make themselves try this crap and keep trying it....and they have to start with small pieces of this crap of course, you can train yourself to start eating cooked foods the same way, just keep taking tiny pieces of some deep fried shit and you'll have some weird effects too. I just don't know why its thought of so highly to eat high meat, I will try it once and if its not as good as sex or taking some LSD then I am right, its not fucking worth it.  -v


I think the advice about smelling and tasting is good. I'd not eat anything without smelling and tasting it first. What is 'foul' however might change with time. Something may smell strong and different, but if you can taste it, chew it in your mouth, and despite it tasting so different still feel it's ok to eat, then it probably is

If you can't smell something without recoiling, and chew it in your mouth without gagging, but still bolt it down, then it probably is going to cause you some (acutely)negative symptoms later.

I never made high meat the way advised by AV. I just age my meat hung on hooks in the fridge and/or in the airflow of a fan (even sometimes hung to the rear view mirror of my car when traveling!).

I entirely agree with the above excerpt s of Yuly and Miles and in general with what they wrote, which seems very wise to me.

But I also agree that Donrad’s post is an idiotic hyperbole.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Iguana on December 26, 2010, 05:38:27 pm
One thing to keep in mind, is that our sense of taste and smell is highly influenced by our upbringing.
Stefansson described how the Eskimos loved rotten meat/fish, and compared it to a gourmet stinky cheese.
Although he is not the most credible source, Aajonus also described how Eskimo children loved high meat, and ate it like candy.
Therefore, it is plausible that we can not reliably use our sense of taste and smell to determine whether high meat is good for us.

As you say, Eskimos ate rotten meat/fish and compared it to a gourmet stinky cheese. Eskimo children loved high meat, and ate it like candy.

It’s clear that if they eat it, that’s because it tastes good to them and if they put it in their mouth first, it’s because they liked the smell, even if it may be stinking for someone else. I would say that our sense of taste and smell is highly influenced by our body needs and condition rather than by our upbringing.

Some stuff (high meat, for example) can smell good to someone at a given moment and bad to someone else. The smell and taste perceptions of a food varies: it’s something dynamic, unlike the perception of colors which is in a steady state.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 26, 2010, 06:46:58 pm
Actup you're the one with your head in the clouds. Paranoid, fantasising that everyone's conspiring against you. Did you say you used to smoke a lot of weed? Ahh I've become Jeremy Kyle!

Dima said his meat was in a jar, so the bits touching the side are not going to be exposed to air, and she said it was green which in my experience(including reading other's experiences) only happens if the meat isn't exposed to fresh air...

Tyler, Donrad's not on his 'last warning'. He only wrote that extreme 'possibility' to counter your complete dismissal of some things which are actually fact. If in defending high-meat you're going to dismiss facts(even the fact that something is a possibility, not only the fact that something is a fact), then he has to counter in the extreme opposite. You're right defending aged-meat, and he's right in attacking rotten meat. But he's not attacking what you're defending, and you're not defending what he's attacking. Responding without properly reading what each other have written is what has allowed this thread to descend into such a mess.

I think the advice about smelling and tasting is good. I'd not eat anything without smelling and tasting it first. What is 'foul' however might change with time. Something may smell strong and different, but if you can taste it, chew it in your mouth, and despite it tasting so different still feel it's ok to eat, then it probably is.

It's alright when people are arguing, and one person perhaps argues more extremely than what he really believes, and then the other person does so in the opposite direction, because they still balance each other out. But you can't do that and then threaten to ban someone, because that destroys the equilibrium. If you want to be in a position to make such threats reasonably, you need to first make sure you are completely balanced yourself.

  You are being far too generous. Donrad has previously attacked all aged meats unless they were dehydrated like jerky. And accusing actup of paranoia when Donrad has, in this and previous posts, suggested that anyone eating high-meat will die horribly and has  accused me and others of a mythical "rawpalaeo conspiracy" involving supposedly mass-murder, is basically pure hypocrisy.

Actually, actup's comment makes some sense, in a way. I have actually, in the past, come across trolls who felt it was their life's mission to convert us all back to the " one true path of a standard, cooked diet", as espoused by the FDA. Now they were of course not agents of the FDA, as such, but they were members of the public who were pissed off at our unconventional way of life and wanted to use any odious means necessary to make raw diets look bad - of course, they would always start off pretending to be mostly rawpalaeo, before gradually and more frequently suggesting that cooked was better, that "high-meat" was "dangerous" etc.


Well, post moderation not being an option, I suppose we will have to leave it to a full ban if similiar horsesh*t is peddled by him in future re the high-meat issue. 


On a more neutral note, I will say this re food-poisoning issues, as I have done a lot of research on this issue:-

1) A considerable amount of food-poisoning comes from eating aged, cooked foods.Canned foods(which are commonly heavily preheated) figure prominently in food-poisoning cases.  It has also been recommended by government health agencies to never place cooked foods together with raw foods, or to let cooked foods age. This makes sense in a way. According to AV, it is not the so-called "pathogen" which is at fault, but the environment so if bacteria migrate from raw to cooked foods, that would cause problems.So, cooked foods plus bacteria equals toxic food, while raw foods plus bacteria are generally fine.

2) Judging from reports, most fatalities or serious food-poisoning occurrences happen to people who are particularly vulnerable already(ie very young infants, or very old people, with health-problems already present).

3) I think this is what KD was thinking of:- namely, if a particular person, say, had severe health-problems(eg:- chronic decades-long diabetes along with major heart-disease, strokes etc.) and then suddenly switched to a raw food diet, then, if, say, a sudden minor detox occurred(giving the usual common flu-like symptoms such as mild fatigue or headache or whatever), then the sudden, minor added stress to that sick body might give that very person a heart-attack or stroke, due to temporarily overloading the body's defences. Temporary detoxes do commonly occur when switching to a raw diet - these happen far more frequently if one is eating almost wholly raw, and are much less likely if one is loading the body with lots of cooked foods as well.This would not make "high-meat" "dangerous" as such, as many other things in foods or habits could cause such heart-attacks or whatnot to someone already in a dire state of ill-health.


Now, the way I see it, "high-meat" is, anyway, mostly only recommended for RVAFers who have been raw for at least a year. This means their bodies are already used to fresh, raw meats. Now, so far, I and others have routinely mentioned this 1-year wait as a caution. There have been a few exceptions where high-meat was recommended at an earlier date(with the caution added, though), but that was usually for people who appeared to have failed with all other approaches and had severely wrecked digestive systems which needed decent amounts of foreign bacteria to solve the problem. Donrad is a  retard for suggesting probiotics as an alternative to high-meats as the vast majority of  RVAFers have reported not benefitting from most probiotics, except perhaps for the high-quality EM products, and report doing far better with "high-meat".

As for me, I have only had very occasional instances of so-called food-poisoning before and after going rawpalaeo. Previous to rawpalaeo, it was always cooked foods, mostly cooked shellfish, which gave me serious food-poisoning issues. Since going rawpalaeo I have had only very, very few, mostly minor, food-poisoning issues in the last 9 years. 2 minor ones came from buying raw fish from 2 very dodgy supermarket-chain-stores - these had a nasty, unusual repellent taste in them, not found in any other raw fish I've had, so obviously had had chemicals added to them, and I clearly reacted to the chemicals as I have never had issues with aged, raw fish.  I also got a 2-day diarrhea experience after eating some so-called "organic" fruit from the odious local Tesco's supermarket store, and am reasonably certain that they had used some preservatives/chemicals on them, given Tesco's dire reputation re organic foods etc.. My only other  food-poisoning issue came about after foolishly eating a so-called organic christmas pudding, which I had foolishly not cooked beforehand, thus resulting in 2-3 days of stomach-aches.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: sabertooth on December 26, 2010, 07:18:07 pm
I opened 5 different highmeat jars today and ate a small piece from each, and had a fairly Mary Christmas, My dreams were extremely weird and I was dancing on some loft balcony at some inchanted resort over an ocean of sea demons, a couple of nights ago I went on an Arctic journey to hunt the ice dragon, Besides that kind of weirdness I haven't had any issues with high meat. If I don't eat enough fresh meat with my high meat I will get extremely hungry. I went to Christmas dinner without eatting anything before, besides a couple of eggs and high meat and by the time I got home I was starving.

I have noticed differences between the different jars of high meat I have. If it grows allot of the green mold on it I usually throw it out, and some of it has a fruity taste that gives me good energy but makes me feel a little weird. I now have a jar that I have been using for the last 11 months, once its about empty I will just throw some more meat in and let it quick rot on the counter for a couple of weeks, It produces the best tasting and most positive effects so I try to keep that strain alive.

I do often wonder about aberrations of highmeat that contains an imbalance of mold toxins, but from my experience you do build a quick tolerance to it and it has immune stimulating benefits that outway the risk, at least in my personal experience. I haven't had food poisoning and have not been sickend by high meat, in fact I don't get sick like I used to at all, everyone else in my family gets the winter colds and viruses, and  when everyone is all stuffed up and run down for a week straight I will only experience a day of felling a little down, I know its the same bug that is making some people bed ridden , but I am not effected by it as I would have been prior to this diet, This is the first Christmas season in years that I have not been ill with something and I give thanks to both the raw diet and high meat.

The mild poisoning caused by eatting high meat that is a little unbalanced could still provide a positive overall effect and perhaps the experience could leave one more able to handle and purge toxins in general. when I first started eatting high meat IT gave me loose stools , but after about the 4th time my digestion was so much improved that I wasn't bothered by it, especially because I felt so good. I think I had such a poor gut ecology and was so overrun  with pathogenic organisms that I needed high meat to prime my guts immune system and purge out the harmful organisms. I can only claim this from my own experience, but from testimony's from others and even seeing Av himself use high meat for years without killing himself should provide proof that its reasonably safe to try.

Did Dima start out by eating only a pea sized amount and then slowly inceasing the amount, I first started by using a marble sized amount and after I didn't feel anything for a day I ate about a teaspoon and that was enough to trigger the high effect as well as loose stools at first.

I have limited experience with narcotics but I am sure that high meats work in a completely different way, the fungal, mold, and bacterial, toxins, trigger the release of serotonin, which helps elevate mood, well being and immune function. While narcotics just numb the nerve centers with opiates that cause a release of dopamine and is overall detrimental. I think because the serotonin release is triggered by eating organisms that are naturally present in decayed flesh, it may have been something that evolved with us at the time our ancestors were the most primal and were eatting large amounts of animal flesh, the boost in serotonin does strengthen the immune system and is beneficial to the nerves in the gut. Artificial serotonin re-uptake drugs seem to damage the bodies capacity to make and use serotonin, were as high meat seems to increase the bodies capability to make and utilize serotonin.

 I call my high meat primordial soup, because I let it age until liquid and scoop off the slime and eat it while the solids are left to mature. Like the kimodo dragon with its mouth full of flesh eating bacteria, I too have a gut primed with flesh eating organisms. I can tell after I eat high meat my stomach can empty itself of a large meal in no time, while as if I don't use high meat for a few days I can feel full for hours. Also I will get a thick saliva after eatting high meat and it thoroughly cleans my mouth and I can feel an overall increase in the production of digestive juices. For some one who is more carnivorous like myself high meat does seem almost necessary for me to be able to digest completely the 2.5 to 3 pounds of fresh meat I eat every day. I may be able to get the same digestive benefits by just aging my fresh meat until it gets a little high but I have found that eatting a small bit of high meat before a large meal is so convenient and effective.  
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: quietmule on December 26, 2010, 09:56:50 pm
you know, when Homeland Security shuts down this site, their excuse is going to be "danger to human health" or something, using our high meat arguments as evidence. hahaha.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: sabertooth on December 26, 2010, 10:32:30 pm
We are still years away from them shutting down free expression over the web, but I agree that there are some really powerfull forces that have an interest in shutting people like us up, but the genie is too far out of the bottle, so until internet two is established, and everything is run directly through some government control panel,( possibly within the next few years) we are relatively free here to rave about rotten meat here, thank God
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 12:56:17 am
as per usual, this is the precise unmoderated bullshit I am referring to coming from Igunna and now Miles on taste/sense dogma into high meat discussion which has 0 relevance and comes from 0 experience with the issue at hand.

causing maximum judgment on what amounts to a MEDICINE, not something with requirements or precedents in nature among perfectly healthy people.

the ONLY 'high' meats that are to be considered relevant are those long fermented in traditional ways by traditional peoples and then co-oped modern versions by Aajonous in his jars/airing process.

There is absolutely no way that meats prepared this way will smell good to any westerner or taste nice to anyone who has not been ingrained with such health and taste perception because it is all about internal bacteria reflecting those conditions. The very concept includes producing foreign medicinal bacteria to basically go to war within that system thus indeed changing it. The high meats I had didn't so much as taste bad but instantly destroyed the bacteria in my mouth creating some kind of burning and gagging response after they got in the 3 month range. This of course contrary to all religious ideas around doing what is pleasurable instead of what is necessary, results in good health, like all the other uncomfortable cleansing and such procedures that go against our senses, desires, and even intellect about what seems right sometimes - often not needed by people millions of years ago.

Waiting towards implementing such a medicine 'prematurely' towards the desire of taste or smell, is always going to be defacto useless and assumes falsely that other approaches achieve this otherwise, which clearly is not the case if people will continuously find it revolting on every attemt prior to this changeover and traditional peoples do not.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Iguana on December 27, 2010, 01:09:33 am
There's only one N and two A in my name, thanks.  ;D

You forgot Yuli.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 01:18:16 am
There's only one N and two A in my name, thanks.  ;D

You forgot Yuli.

yuli actually thinks for herself, and made a compelling argument you can't trace back to any textbook hygiene book about the 'complexity' of the issue not its default problem with tasting bad.

also doesn't to my knowledge follow such things unilaterally. 'caution' isn't the issue here as being irresponsible.

---
apparently my spelling is all you have to say regarding medicines and the like.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 01:23:02 am
As far as Donrad and his "dead men don't tell tales", that's nonsense. if someone cacked from this stuff it would be all over the papers as someone would find the jar of rotten meat in the fridge.

My neighbour from Tibet told me that they enjoyed their meat especially when it turned blue. Same with butter, they would save some for 10 20 years and it was a delicacy.

Don I have to wonder what you think our not too distant ancestors did. We have only had fridges and freeze dried packaging for a incredibly brief period of time in history. Salting was not an option everywhere, bottling is also a relatively recent invention.

Do you believe that we all lived on air or killed a cow once a week. Humans have eaten rotten food successfully for who knows how long.

The CDC only tracks what it's masters ask it to track. The data that goes into the Centre is what it is fed. If somebody eats food that was laced with so much antibiotics that it makes them sick, then the CDC doesn't record that someone got sick from eating a dose of antibiotics. The lazy bum who records what happened to the dead person wants to get home at 5 PM so if someone ate meat so long before they died, guesses are made.

If you read "The Untold Story Of Milk" you are confronted with lots of tales like that. Medical history is laced with people who drew conclusions based on their level of knowledge at the time in history that they lived.

In Pasteur's day the church crowd and the best medical minds had everybody believe that infections were due to "Spontaneous Generation".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation.

We laugh at it nowadays, but back then it was serious stuff.

There was a very large mountain to move in making people of the time believe that infections were bacteria based. Now that whole paradyme has shifted too far the other way.

I wonder if the stink of high meat wouldn't be changed if the meat were kept in sheep's guts as they were in days gone by?
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Iguana on December 27, 2010, 01:35:40 am
also doesn't to my knowledge follow such things unilaterally. 'caution' isn't the issue here as being irresponsible.

Please proof read your posts, this is incomprehensible.

Quote
apparently my spelling is all you have to say regarding medicines and the like.

I would have a lot to say, but I've got no time to waste in arguing again with you. You should calm down and be civil instead of aggressively  insulting your fellows raw dieters again.  
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: sabertooth on December 27, 2010, 01:35:46 am
The carnivorous ancestors who ate rotten left overs or even the Eskimo children who ate rotten fish had no need to use the concentrated version of AV style high meat, they would of acquired the benefits of earth microbs early in life and would have not had their digestion destroyed by antibiotics.

I will state again, that I was dosed with poisonous antibiotic drugs at least 50 times before I was 18 years old, starting at the tender age of 6 months, and for someone like me drastic steps had to be taken to correct the imbalances I had. I am willing to deal with the strong taste of highmeat if it means that soon after I feel its benefits.

 So I am recommending high meat as a dietary medicine that could in some people be able to strengthen the immune system to a level where they can heal and live without the need of harmful drugs, and I am claiming that it improves digestion for those who want to adapt to eating large amounts of raw meat. Revolting to the taste bud or not I stand by my experience with high meat and endorse it.  As long as people follow the basic safety protocol and start slow there is no danger of being poisoned to death.

 If you try small amounts and cant live with the taste or get some weird side effect then you can throw the rest out and give up on it. The choice is up to the individual. I may be reckless in recommending it to newbees, but I do so based on my personal experience in which I went directly into eating 2 pounds or more of meat a day and completely eliminated all non paleo foods from the diet, and even avoid most carbs. I often wonder if someone has issues with high meat it could be from some wrong combinations of foods, or there may be differences that cant be accounted for based on limited information.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: ys on December 27, 2010, 01:39:38 am
Quote
Humans have eaten rotten food successfully for who knows how long.

that's just your personal guess since no one has any proof of it whatsoever.  but i do know that fishermen at some areas go to sea every single day just to have something to eat that day.  why can't you go hunting every day?

just for mental exercise, let's say there is a tribe 30-40 people.  a group of hunters brings back medium size prey let's say wild boar.  there would be nothing left of that boar in 3-5 days.  
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 01:41:57 am
Please proof read your posts, this sentence is incomprehensible.

I would have a lot to say, but I've got no time to waste in arguing again with you. You should calm down and be civil instead of aggressively  insulting your fellows raw dieters again.  

English is not even your native language. There is nothing wrong with my sentence. You cannot admit your 0 experience with high meat disqualifies parroting your dogma about food tasting nice, and it to the detriment of people that actually want to do things to improve their health and not be exposed to such closed minded talk that doesn't take into account shifting variables and needs in modern times - like sabertooth is pointing out.

You shouldn't be mentioning this crap ever outside of the instincto forum, and if the other moderators don't want to mention anything about it because of whatever desire to placate the elders, so be it, but that is obviously the case. The fact that you couldn't' wait 1 day without spewing the same inexperienced judgmental crap is so telling that you learned absolutely nothing, and can't even see that my above claim has any residue of truth to it about the changing circumstances of contemporary peoples to blanket ideals.

calm? your posts reak of emotional ruin man and defensive attacks towards me. meanwhile it takes me 5 seconds to collect an argument that actually has content in it beyond our disputes.

My answer is here. Iguana  (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/clash/msg58260/#msg58260)
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 27, 2010, 01:44:12 am

Waiting towards implementing such a medicine 'prematurely' towards the desire of taste or smell, is always going to be defacto useless and assumes falsely that other approaches achieve this otherwise, which clearly is not the case if people will continuously find it revolting on every attemt prior to this changeover and traditional peoples do not.
  I'm afraid that the above shows considerable bias! For one thing I recall in the past being able to differentiate taste-wise between "good" "high-meat" made in partially aerated conditions and those "bad""high-meats" which I had very occasionally left in an entirely unaerated environment(ie "vacuum-packed) - and which had a different, toxic taste. Also, I quickly got used to (if only specific) types of "high-meats". For example, I find that "high-meat" made from raw, 100 percent grassfed ox heart tastes very much like a delightful, very smelly raw cheese, once matured. I even remember my own father who, despite being on a SAD diet, absolutely adored the taste of the very smelliest raw cheeses in France.

Also, in palaeo times, it would have been impossible to avoid eating a great deal of aged raw meats in the diet given the lack of refrigeration(even some "high-meat" during times of famine), so their instincts would have been less twisted by the presence of modern processed foods.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 01:46:32 am
 I'm afraid that the above shows considerable bias! For one thing I recall in the past being able to differentiate taste-wise between "good" "high-meat" made in partially aerated conditions and those "bad""high-meats" which I had very occasionally left in an entirely unaerated environment(ie "vacuum-packed). Also, I quickly got used to specific types of "high-meats". For example, I find that "high-meat" made from raw, 100 percent grassfed ox heart tastes very much like a delightful, very smelly raw cheese, once matured. I even remember my own father who, despite being on a SAD diet, absolutely adored the taste of the very smelliest raw cheeses in France.

Also, in palaeo times, it would have been impossible to avoid eating a great deal of aged raw meats in the diet given the lack of refrigeration(even some "high-meat" during times of famine), so their instincts would have been less twisted by the presence of modern processed foods.

sheesh. how can you miss the general point again here, of course one should discern between good and bad, but at the end of the day you can't discount whole practices just because they seem not the most pleasurable between doing something and doing nothing.

my whole point was saying that the acquire taste is reflected in the changeover of bacteria, and prior to that it will likely taste bad. so lacking any experience it will likely taste bad, and not overcoming that intellectually will avoid that change.

So basically when I said 'defacto', the state of waiting till high meat tasted good  - and not overriding through intellect - would generally for most people remove them from the process entirely. Most people here would say to their detriment, but even if that cannot be proven, the issue is the scorning of the abilities of the brain over the senses here is obviously incorrect. This is not unique to high meats, or general nutrition, but certainly never to medicine for unwell contemporary peoples when even animals seek out such things in lieu of their most pleasurable foods.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 27, 2010, 01:51:07 am
that's just your personal guess since no one has any proof of it whatsoever.  but i do know that fishermen at some areas go to sea every single day just to have something to eat that day.  why can't you go hunting every day?

just for mental exercise, let's say there is a tribe 30-40 people.  a group of hunters brings back medium size prey let's say wild boar.  there would be nothing left of that boar in 3-5 days. 
I'm afraid you are making a false assumption. For one thing, extreme local weather would prevent daily hunting, at times, especially during winter, and there was an Ice-Age for much of the Palaeolithic era - plus, palaeo peoples routinely had to follow migrating herds etc., and were routinely faced with times when food was plentiful as well as times when food was scarcely available, given changing seasons etc.. So, it would have been logical from a survival point-of-view for them to store some raw meats(make them into jerky or eat them in "high-meat" form etc.) during times when hunting was successful.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 02:27:43 am
that's just your personal guess since no one has any proof of it whatsoever.  but i do know that fishermen at some areas go to sea every single day just to have something to eat that day.  why can't you go hunting every day?

just for mental exercise, let's say there is a tribe 30-40 people.  a group of hunters brings back medium size prey let's say wild boar.  there would be nothing left of that boar in 3-5 days.  
You obviously live a city. So you are saying that you can go out every 3 - 5 days and get a boar. Get a grip. Hunters don't head out to a barn and shoot a cow inside. They have to go looking, and that is why it is called hunting. Sometimes animals are found only once in a while. You can't just go looking for an anthill in the middle of winter in Canada. This life is in your face. It's the real thing, no mental game.

My friends have airplanes and rifles and motorboats to find animals because it's difficult to find them. That's why aboriginals ate every part of the animal.

Are you suggesting that all groups of humans were 30 -40 people?

One guy I flew with grew up in a family in a remote area where fishing was a way of life. They had motor boats and fishing rope and lines. Those were all a recent addition to the arsenal of humans. Even so you do not go out fishing every day especially in the fall and spring or in winter gales unless you have rocks in your head or a death wish. Sometimes storms last for weeks. Witness the storms this year in eastern Canada.

What do you think haggis, sauerkrout, beer, wine alcohol, rotten whale meat (that someone from Iceland posted on one thread) my friend's yak meat, rotten butter, the list goes on. That's just what I dreamed up in a one minute post.

If you were to extricate yourself from the cozy apartment or house in suburbia and actually take your hide out to the countryside where no one else lives and away from Walmart and Starbucks you would discover that first you'd have to make some tools to kill with (remember no knives and rifles) then you would be incessantly trying to find food so therefore moving to different hunting areas with the seasons, hauling the "missus" and the "younguns" from hunting areas to hunting areas means you have to eat food that you have stored. If you eat old rotten food you can't just dart down to the "Emerge" ward to have your guts pumped.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 27, 2010, 02:31:31 am
sheesh. how can you miss the general point again here, of course one should discern between good and bad, but at the end of the day you can't discount whole practices just because they seem not the most pleasurable between doing something and doing nothing.

my whole point was saying that the acquire taste is reflected in the changeover of bacteria, and prior to that it will likely taste bad. so lacking any experience it will likely taste bad, and not overcoming that intellectually will avoid that change.

So basically when I said 'defacto', the state of waiting till high meat tasted good  - and not overriding through intellect - would generally for most people remove them from the process entirely. Most people here would say to their detriment, but even if that cannot be proven, the issue is the scorning of the abilities of the brain over the senses here is obviously incorrect. This is not unique to high meats, or general nutrition, but certainly never to medicine for unwell contemporary peoples when even animals seek out such things in lieu of their most pleasurable foods.
   Well, one could argue that if one is eating rawpalaeo from birth, and if one had a mother who was rawpalaeo during pregnancy(what a mother eats during pregnancy influences  child's tastes after birth), that there would be no need to acclimatise to "high-meats" as they would be used to their taste already from day 1. I recall, Instincto also points out that our tastes/instincts are completely fouled up as a result of past SMD diets, and that only days/months/years of eating raw and palaeo can help gradually bring back the right instincts as part of normal life.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 02:45:58 am
  Well, one could argue that if one is eating rawpalaeo from birth, and if one had a mother who was rawpalaeo during pregnancy(what a mother eats during pregnancy influences  child's tastes after birth), that there would be no need to acclimatise to "high-meats" as they would be used to their taste already from day 1. I recall, Instincto also points out that our tastes/instincts are completely fouled up as a result of past SMD diets, and that only days/months/years of eating raw and palaeo can help gradually bring back the right instincts as part of normal life.

Yeah, thats precisely the point, which is why when people like sabertooth are sharing their experiences on how the high meats have helped reverse some of the modern damages of society. Again this doesn't prove the efficacy or that they are absolutely safe, but it insinuates that the high meat is a tool to go from one state to another that might not be able to be achieved otherwise and in some cases indeed might be crucial for success/digestion of raw foods etc..

Therefore if someone is in a certain state they shouldn't ignore opportunities to get better based on constructs to how things taste, they go with the experience of others - in this case, precisely because their desires are distorted. much with general nutrition, modes of activity, and other issues we as nature-removed and unhealthy peoples have to figure out.

at a certain point I might believe the possibility of ones instincts in that someone might even be so ill that they crave high meats (i suppose) like dirt or herbal plants over not regularly eaten things, but if high-meats take 4-12 weeks to mature, the decision is always going to have to be intellectual and anticipatory.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 27, 2010, 02:58:17 am
at a certain point I might believe the possibility of ones instincts in that someone might even be so ill that they crave high meats (i suppose) like dirt or herbal plants over not regularly eaten things, but if high-meats take 4-12 weeks to mature, the decision is always going to have to be intellectual and anticipatory.
Aged meats could have been eaten without preparing them as such. There is after all a popular "scavenger" theory related to human evolution that claims that humans hardly hunted at all, but just waited for days until top predators had finished eating most of a carcass and then just ate the rotting remains such as brains, marrow and anything else left over.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 03:17:55 am
Aged meats could have been eaten without preparing them as such. There is after all a popular "scavenger" theory related to human evolution that claims that humans hardly hunted at all, but just waited for days until top predators had finished eating most of a carcass and then just ate the rotting remains such as brains, marrow and anything else left over.

yeah, I ascribe to that theory, but we arn't talking about the ancient practices of peoples but whether or not to discount the typical AV style high meat practices based on taste or appeal alone for all people right now.

Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?


this is a yes or no question

(applied to people sitting around their houses reading the forum/taken medications/antibiotics/lived on cooked foods ~20 years etc..)
if the answer is no in any cases, I don't understand how most of the things you are saying disagree.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 27, 2010, 04:01:11 am
yeah, I ascribe to that theory, but we arn't talking about the ancient practices of peoples but whether or not to discount the typical AV style high meat practices based on taste or appeal alone for all people right now.

Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?


this is a yes or no question

(applied to people sitting around their houses reading the forum/taken medications/antibiotics/lived on cooked foods ~20 years etc..)
if the answer is no in any cases, I don't understand how most of the things you are saying disagree.
It's not a yes or no deal, it's a grey area. Once someone gets the usual taste-change after c.8-12 months of going rawpalaeo, one starts getting more natural instincts re foods and finds cooked foods more distasteful etc.


Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 04:20:37 am
Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?


this is a yes or no question

(applied to people sitting around their houses reading the forum/taken medications/antibiotics/lived on cooked foods ~20 years etc..)
if the answer is no in any cases, I don't understand how most of the things you are saying disagree.
Qualified yes.
Prior to the modern age when we could simply go to the store and get some condiment from the other side of the world and people started distributing recipes re cooked food, there are theories that indeed taste was the determining reasoning for eating food. Ayurveda says that we naturally hunger for certain foods because of the effect (nutrition) that it contains that our body recognizes that we need.

Children will hunger for sweet tastes because sweet is required for them to grow. Their (our) brains are surrounded by a sweet fatty fluid and the brain needs this to conduct the awesome amount of growth in the early years.

Anyone wo has been around pregnant women will recognize the weird food requests that they come out with. This is their body's way of asking for nutrients that it has known in the past were contained in certain foods.

Now for the qualified part. Obviously if a child tastes the super sweet tastes of candy it is not wise to overfeed them this stuff but this is not because the sweet is bad but because we have learned how to make foods that fool our age old systems of defence. By cooking and refining we have disturbed that natural nutritional sorting out system that is part of our body's immune system if you will.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 04:33:19 am
It's not a yes or no deal, it's a grey area. Once someone gets the usual taste-change after c.8-12 months of going rawpalaeo, one starts getting more natural instincts re foods and finds cooked foods more distasteful etc.

Qualified yes.

Now for the qualified part. Obviously if a child tastes the super sweet tastes of candy it is not wise to overfeed them this stuff but this is not because the sweet is bad but because we have learned how to make foods that fool our age old systems of defence. By cooking and refining we have disturbed that natural nutritional sorting out system that is part of our body's immune system if you will.

ok, so back on planet earth, since personally I am even more confused now going by the previous and past discussions:

for people viewing this topic who actually might want to learn something you would then recommend that they abstain from ANY intentionally made 'high' meats (properly done) - NOT expired/improperly aged or aired meats - if they don't taste as/more appealing than fresh meat? that is what you are saying?

This is 100% the opposite of my impressions from past discussions here, my own experience as well as writings and comments from mr. A himself on societal peoples expected reactions and benefits regardless. So I assume more than myself is confused.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: ForTheHunt on December 27, 2010, 04:55:15 am
Wow.. I can just end this thread by saying; It was the mold.

If your meat is moldy something went wrong. Never ever eat any mold. It has shitloads of mycotoxins wich will cause the symptoms you experienced.

The meat is supposed to be nice and sludgy.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 04:58:46 am
How do you explain people eating mouldy cheese?
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: TylerDurden on December 27, 2010, 06:14:05 am
I always judge when "high-meat" is properly ripening by how much the fungus-threads have developed on the aging raw meat. Never had a problem with them.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Stancel on December 27, 2010, 06:23:28 am
some molds are "edible" and used in fermentation for example, Aspergillus oryzae used to make miso, soy sauce and sake, but Aspergillus flavus produces aflatoxin. It's not...either all mold is safe or all mold is deadly.

Beats me how paleo peoples (or people before microbiology) could know how to prevent toxic molds. Maybe the traditions they developed over time.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 06:30:13 am
There are some moulds that may have medicinal properties and some have mood/consciousness altering properties.

ie. ergot which is the basis of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide  - LSD
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: yuli on December 27, 2010, 06:54:38 am
Beats me how paleo peoples (or people before microbiology) could know how to prevent toxic molds. Maybe the traditions they developed over time.

Dunno but they probably tried different ways of storing the meat and then eating it. Could be they figured out specific things like putting it somewhere dark, or dry, or I even heard that this is how spices were "invented" as they used herbs on the meat to help it age properly or last longer.

As for different kinds of molds I think its possible some are poisonous and some not. I never had moldy meat but there were some fruits and veggies that had molded and I was pretty disgusted by the smell and feel of that mold. I wonder what would happen if I ate the moldy fruits and veggies? anyone tried that?

I have eaten plenty of moldy cheeses, the one with all the blue mold too, and didn't feel problems from it. But then again the cheese mold smells ok to me and even with the mold on it the cheese doesn't look like its decomposing or turning into slime. Its the slime that gets me really, for some reason I view development of slime that its turned into something noxious not to be eaten. Of course it may be due to my own upbringing.

Then again I had a friend that would come over and we have this stinky cheese in our fridge, lol he would run out of the kitchen when I opened the bag with that cheese, saying it smelled like a mans old sweaty socks  :D  So it may very likely be just our upbringing.

There are some moulds that may have medicinal properties and some have mood/consciousness altering properties.
ie. ergot which is the basis of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide  - LSD

Yeah its thanks to molds a lot of neat things like that were discovered! I have always had fear, respect and curiosity about fungi and molds, probably the ancient people did too, and experimented with them greatly. Likely a few got really sick during their experimentations.  -\

...The meat is supposed to be nice and sludgy.

Why is sludge considered better then mold? Is that just for meat? (I have conditioned myself to think most mold is ok and sludge/slime is bad)...

Has anyone analyzed wet-made high meat? How does it compare to lets say very moldy old cheese? What kinda "critters" are in it by the time high meat is very slimy and high?

Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?

The age old question! lol
The answer I think is we don't know, considering modern people today, as ancient people in the wild had so MUCH different lives, they would also need to eat anything they can to survive by the way and probably accustomed themselves to eat things that they wouldn't if they didn't have to (anyone thought of that, survival, when you're fighting for survival taste gets thrown out the window at times)...
Modern people have a different difficulty as now we have a choice, sigh...
Sometimes we can learn to recognize something is healthy and sometimes not....my taste-sense seems to recognize most fermented smelling and tasting foods as a good tonic for my stomach, ie it feels good right after being eaten even if it tastes a little funky.
To someone like my friend, he'll run away from any aged cheese or cabbage and especially from aged raw meats.
Today it greatly depends on our own conditioning which we have to direct in the right direction, not so easy to do of course...

I would feel totally ok to try high meat if it was made for me by someone who knows what to do exactly, and can tell me that yes this high meat tastes ok and safe to try. As I have not conditioned myself with rotten meats but rotten milk and cheese I can tell is ok when its ok.


Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: goodsamaritan on December 27, 2010, 07:08:09 am
I think it is high time for a SHOW OF PICTURES.

You guys who are experts at high meat making should take pics so we can discuss PICTURES.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 07:23:45 am
As for different kinds of molds I think its possible some are poisonous and some not. I never had moldy meat but there were some fruits and veggies that had molded and I was pretty disgusted by the smell and feel of that mold. I wonder what would happen if I ate the moldy fruits and veggies? anyone tried that?
Mouldy raspberries, blueberries. Lots of them. Possibly some things are not a good idea.

I remember a video that was doing the rounds about a certain type of fruit in Africa that the wild animals would eat when it became over ripe and presumably turned alcoholic or maybe it was a mould. The wild animals would gather around the trees and eat as much as they could stand, get stupid drunk, do it agin and then that was it till next year.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 07:24:53 am
I think it is high time for a SHOW OF PICTURES.

You guys who are experts at high meat making should take pics so we can discuss PICTURES.

Make them scratch 'n sniff for the full effect.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: KD on December 27, 2010, 07:44:09 am

my taste-sense seems to recognize most fermented smelling and tasting foods as a good tonic for my stomach, ie it feels good right after being eaten even if it tastes a little funky.


I would feel totally ok to try high meat if it was made for me by someone who knows what to do exactly, and can tell me that yes this high meat tastes ok and safe to try. As I have not conditioned myself with rotten meats but rotten milk and cheese I can tell is ok when its ok.




right, I knew I had you all figured out :) j/k

I think that sounds wise. just recently I tried to make some that I knew by the smell there was something off within 1 week, so sense and experience is helpful in knowing how to distinguish good or bad, but the results will generally still be unfomfortable and smelly as I tried to compare to oysters or chicken, but exponential based on bacteria. I'm sure you can find people who find the smell of raw chicken or cheese to not be appealing..we are talking degrees and degrees past.

I might add in addition what I was pointing out, anything fermented or processed in any other way by a person is usually considered by the same mindset to be impossibly healthy either and is seen as the reverse of the above paradigm, reflecting some kind of societal distortion on our tastes. The idea of medicinally properties of food itself being considered a falsity as specific foods do not in themselves heal but just the removal from toxic foods. (ok whatever). Fermented and moldy foods are considered the worst offenders to hygienists, often even over neolithic or modern foods themselves, including plants like sauerkraut that are not considered dangerous often.

---


'high time' heh, good one GS. I have a few somewhere that I can't locate but I posted a few in this thread and I think Hannibal too.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/msg36840/#msg36840
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 07:59:32 am
I would feel totally ok to try high meat if it was made for me by someone who knows what to do exactly, and can tell me that yes this high meat tastes ok and safe to try. As I have not conditioned myself with rotten meats but rotten milk and cheese I can tell is ok when its ok.
Yuli, it's so easy to make. It's easier than making yogurt, kefir, cheese. Add nothing, mix nothing. Just cut up the meat in whatever size you want, marble sized in the beginning, put it in a jar, max 1/2 full, put a cover on it, put it in the fridge. Close the fridge door the same way you always do. Then wait 3 days. Then take it out of the fridge, take it out of the house, put a clothes pin over your nose, open the cover, let it air for a minute, waving it around to let it air better. Then close it and put it back in the fridge. Wait another three days and so on.

After 30 days or so, change the routine and instead of airing it, put a fork inside grab a chunk and eat it. Don't forget the clothespin on the proboscis.  ;D If you are really grossed out at the thought, chase it with a muffin or whiskey or whatever. Don't chase it with lemon or lime as it will kill the bacteria.

Or if you do insist on using lemon or lime like my GF, don't swallow.

Better still get some guy to air it for ya. We can barely smell feces.  ;D
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: sabertooth on December 27, 2010, 08:23:08 am
Av talked of mold and bacteria being in highmeat. so even he isn't too concerned about categorizing all the strains of organisms that grow on his high meat.

 The whole question has to be yes or no, because someone choosing to try it out must say yes I agree based on what these people here say about the benefits of highmeat and based on their testimony I will must decide yes or no. Its a very grey area indeed.

For us who are on the high meat bandwagon, its hard to get some people to realize that even if the meat isn't rotten in some clinical fashion and is composed of x y z strains of bacteria, it is still safe, because we don't really know ourselves what people put into their jars or what their digestive system can handle based on what we are told. It takes a leap of faith, and even Av himself had to take that plunge into the danger zone.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: yuli on December 27, 2010, 08:42:23 am
Make them scratch 'n sniff for the full effect.

ROFL! I imagined a paleo-modernized future, where you have little jars of different high meats in the supermarket, labeled with dates, bacteria & mold types with effect (fancy names like "Calm", "Invigorate", "Seduction", like you have for the teas now, aha ha ha)...and they have the scrtch and sniff pads on the labels! Oh joy!

Mouldy raspberries, blueberries. Lots of them. .....

And ... does it compare to high meat in effects?

I remember a video that was doing the rounds about a certain type of fruit in Africa that the wild animals would eat when it became over ripe and presumably turned alcoholic or maybe it was a mould. The wild animals would gather around the trees and eat as much as they could stand, get stupid drunk, do it agin and then that was it till next year.

Yes there are some you can find on youtube...one with elephants and giraffes and mongooses in the wild drunk on seasonal rotting fruit.
The other has these monkeys that live beside a small resort and constantly steal peoples drinks and get totally shitfaced, thats a very funny video I gotta find that, they look so human there...

right, I knew I had you all figured out...

Really let me know cause I haven't been able to do that yet, but I try

@raw-al....

I have left meat in glass jars for a week, but thats not long enough and the jars were half closed with tin foil...I felt that I had to let the meat "breathe"  -\  If I try it should I do it with
-- grassfed-finished VERY lean beef - stew chunks size
-- semi-fatty grassfed-finished beef ground
-- hay + grain supllemented bison, elk or deer?
which one of those should I do?....I don't want to make any organs or chickens high yet...eeeek

When I try it I wouldn't want to plug my nose though, I want to look death in the face when I see it. I'll probably have a jar of raw honey and spoon ready for the aftermath  -v

@sabertooth

right its all about taking risks, when we started eating raw meat we accepted a certain risk (way overblown of course)...there is a tiny chance you eat some infected raw meat and oops, your body happens to not be able to fight it very well, and ta da you get sick....this can also happen with any food, you can also get struck by lightning....these are all different levels of risks but are worth taking....I take the risk of walking on the street in the city because I enjoy it, there is a risk I'll get hit by a car...happened to two people I knew and one of them died due to it...but I still walk on the street. Even if one person gets sick, we can't make people who recommend high meats responsible, many people have benefits and don't get sick...its a specific process, if someone fucks it up because they didn't know any better, had bad meat to begin with, has some physical handicap its still not the fault of those people who use high meat for its benefits and are very much alive and healthy. I guess that sounds kind of mean, but there are people that died from eating any meat, do we not recommend eating meat because of this? Well some people do but they are clearly stupid.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 27, 2010, 09:14:01 am
Even if one person gets sick, we can't make people who recommend high meats responsible, many people have benefits and don't get sick...its a specific process, if someone fucks it up because they didn't know any better, had bad meat to begin with, has some physical handicap its still not the fault of those people who use high meat for its benefits and are very much alive and healthy. I guess that sounds kind of mean, but there are people that died from eating any meat, do we not recommend eating meat because of this? Well some people do but they are clearly stupid.

If that's directed at me, I'm certainly not holding anyone responsible. I believe in personal responsibility. My intention for starting this thread was to learn and to share. I am not out to give high-meat a bad rap. I hope that was clear from my previous messages.

Go for the high-meat, Yuli, I am very much looking forward to the high-meat VS LSD comparison  ;D
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: yuli on December 27, 2010, 09:30:40 am
If that's directed at me, I'm certainly not holding anyone responsible. I believe in personal responsibility. My intention for starting this thread was to learn and to share. I am not out to give high-meat a bad rap. I hope that was clear from my previous messages.

Go for the high-meat, Yuli, I am very much looking forward to the high-meat VS LSD comparison  ;D

Not at all directed at you, it was directed at how people in society commonly freak out about germs ect. in the health industry, the media etc And perhaps was directed due to Donrad being paranoid, nothing is 100% safe, we can't live in bubbles. And it is in fact known that underexposure to germs makes us very weak. As much as over-exposure to the wrong ones can make us sick, I guess you can have too much of a good thing...

Yes I will try some high meat, I know its going to taste like shit but I am curious to the effects, maybe I'll be surprised and find it to taste a very old cheese, right  l) , I have to at least try it to get a real sense of the whole subject....
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: goodsamaritan on December 27, 2010, 09:44:09 am
Make them scratch 'n sniff for the full effect.

We can't transmit smell over this forum yet. 
So we will have to try PHOTOS.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Nation on December 27, 2010, 10:32:33 am
I will never eat high meat.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: laterade on December 27, 2010, 02:37:58 pm
I will never eat high meat.

Never say never!


As far as the pictures go... I have some high meat that looks almost exactly the same as when I put it in there 2 months ago.
I have only been opening it once a week, so that is probably why.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Hannibal on December 27, 2010, 08:12:11 pm
If your meat is moldy something went wrong. Never ever eat any mold.
I disagree with you.
Horse meat is quite susceptible to mold and it's fine. It's its nature. On the other hand I've never seen mold on an aged mutton, even after several months.
Quote
It has shitloads of mycotoxins wich will cause the symptoms you experienced.
There are several ways to deal with these kinds of toxins - via LDL (dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, dr. Flegel), selenium, clays, etc.
So taking statins, antibiotics, etc. and combining them with some high-meats could be very wrong. But it isn't the latter that is culprit.
Quote
The meat is supposed to be nice and sludgy.
It's very subjective.
For lots of vegetarians every kind of meat is unpleasant.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Hannibal on December 27, 2010, 08:15:16 pm
All I had was a mild sickness that went away on its own in a few hours.
So everything is all right.
Wild animals also encounter such the sicknesses.
It's the law of NATURE.
I know its going to taste like shit
Not necessarily.
You would definitely like the taste of Hannibal-made 1-month-old horse meat. :)
There is a high probability you ate toxic substances in the meat. Salmonella is quite common even when you are not trying to create poisons. Your nose warned you.
Salmonella is the type of bacteria, not a toxin.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Hannibal on December 27, 2010, 08:50:13 pm
Salmonella is the number one food contaminant, causing nearly one-third of food-borne hospitalizations and deaths, according to CDC data. Salmonella is a bacterial disease that strikes the intestinal tract.
Correlation does not imply causation.
If someone eats "shits", takes medicinal "shits", have got "battered" immune system then everything can trigger the cascade that will lead to death.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: sabertooth on December 27, 2010, 09:17:34 pm
Hannibal
I have posted before about how I prefer lamb high meat and I have also noticed that it does not get moldy like other meats, it turns grey and has the best smell and flavor of all high meats I have tryed so far. I have just started some venison about two weeks ago and used my old lamb jar as an inoculate so far it is very slimy with little signs of mold, I have tried a couple of pieces and so far its going wonderfully.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: sabertooth on December 27, 2010, 09:46:33 pm
mycotoxins are going to be the primary fear when it comes to high meat. I have taken the view that just as low repeated doses of snake venom can make one completely immune to its effects then perhaps repeated consumption of high meats that contain the myriad of bioactive substances can help build up you deffences against other internally created mycotoxins. I believed that I had some internal imbalance in which fungal life forms were running amuck, and some how high meat has helped me to attain my current digestive balance, either by directly killing off other pathogenic microbs or by stimulating my immune system to purge out more harmful microbs or even by just forcing me to build up a tolerance to the poisons so I am no longer sickened by them, what ever mechanism is responsible for the benefits is up for debate, but the results seem to be consistently positive whatever the science behind it.

Another train of though when it comes to using highmeat medicinally, just as we are told that we must complete an antibiotic regiment to fully kill the bacteria in our body, it my be necessary to do a high meat regiment in order to repare some individuals from past damaged caused by such overuse of antibiotics. Although I am not a doctor and cant perscribe a course of treatment, it is a topic for general discussion, If you are suffering from severe gut imbalances how much and how often should you use high meat in order to provide the maximum benefit, I am taking a stance toward a 10 day cycle with a small piece of very high meat before each large meal of meat, in order to build a consistant tolerance, should there be any problems with such a prescription. I think for people who truly have a gut imbalance and  have already began to adapt to a paleo diet, such a high meat regiment could greatly speed up overall recovery and give them a better chance to fully adapt to a healthy paleo lifestyle.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on December 27, 2010, 11:04:20 pm
ROFL! I imagined a paleo-modernized future, where you have little jars of different high meats in the supermarket, labeled with dates, bacteria & mold types with effect (fancy names like "Calm", "Invigorate", "Seduction", like you have for the teas now, aha ha ha)...and they have the scrtch and sniff pads on the labels! Oh joy!

And ... does it compare to high meat in effects?

Yes there are some you can find on youtube...one with elephants and giraffes and mongooses in the wild drunk on seasonal rotting fruit.
The other has these monkeys that live beside a small resort and constantly steal peoples drinks and get totally shitfaced, thats a very funny video I gotta find that, they look so human there...

Really let me know cause I haven't been able to do that yet, but I try

@raw-al....

I have left meat in glass jars for a week, but thats not long enough and the jars were half closed with tin foil...I felt that I had to let the meat "breathe"  -\  If I try it should I do it with
-- grassfed-finished VERY lean beef - stew chunks size
-- semi-fatty grassfed-finished beef ground
-- hay + grain supllemented bison, elk or deer?
which one of those should I do?....I don't want to make any organs or chickens high yet...eeeek

When I try it I wouldn't want to plug my nose though, I want to look death in the face when I see it. I'll probably have a jar of raw honey and spoon ready for the aftermath  -v


LOL, re the grocery store HM. I can see it happening where there will be a section in the health food store where you can buy grade A certified mild, medium and medical grade "Biologically activated" meat. So help me Gud someone will breach that barrier. And you'll pay a fortune for it.

Personally I do not eat any great amounts of HM the way that some do which probably explains why I do not get the high effect. Any more makes me gag. I am fine with the small piece though.

I did not intentionally make the raspberries "high", it just happened when I bought a bunch at the market (near Parliament) this summer. I eat about a tablespoon daily so they just started rotting. AV mentions that raspberries cream and honey and coconut cream reduce snoring. My GF confirms it. (most of the time)

I like your idea of not completely covering the jars. This allows the odour to escape. I don't think the odour is a necessary part of the process.

I am not an expert on what types of meat to use. We tried 3 jars; O chicken, OGF beef and wild caught fish.

The honey chaser is a good idea if you have trouble with the taste. I don't.

I will be interested in seeing the final version of the raw diet booklet that is being written on this site somewhere. Particularly the HM section.

If you get to Ottawa you can try our HM.
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 27, 2010, 11:47:27 pm
I disagree with you.
Horse meat is quite susceptible to mold and it's fine. It's its nature. On the other hand I've never seen mold on an aged mutton, even after several months. There are several ways to deal with these kinds of toxins - via LDL (dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, dr. Flegel), selenium, clays, etc.
So taking statins, antibiotics, etc. and combining them with some high-meats could be very wrong. But it isn't the latter that is culprit. It's very subjective.
For lots of vegetarians every kind of meat is unpleasant.

Hannibal, how do you age mutton for several months?
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Hannibal on December 28, 2010, 12:06:24 am
Hannibal, how do you age mutton for several months?
In big glass jars on the balcony and on my private land. I couldn't age it in a fridge because of my parents.
But it was only once, because that mutton was from the older ram, so it was quite smelly.
I do not age it on purpose.
I keep it as long as I need to till I eat everything. It's so simple. :)
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Dima on December 28, 2010, 12:28:15 am
I see. I had a whole lamb shoulder sitting on a refrigerator shelf and it turned into inedible jerky in a fairly short time. So you were essentially eating high meat?
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: Hannibal on December 28, 2010, 12:50:29 am
So you were essentially eating high meat?
Yes I did. It became high very fast
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: raw-al on January 01, 2011, 11:51:47 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XZpCjuzvTA
Title: Re: Possible high-meat poisoning/questions
Post by: miles on January 02, 2011, 12:19:53 am
Cool I see posts of Tyler 'Loki' Durden and Boxcarguy there.