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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Health => Topic started by: alycia on April 04, 2011, 10:04:52 am

Title: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 04, 2011, 10:04:52 am
HI, I am new girl here and rather confused on what form of paleo i need to try in order to improve my bowel health?  I've been raw for 5 years now, mainly vegetarian with a little raw meat here and there.  I am thinking fiber may not be the best thing in the world for "proper" colon health anymore?  

which Paleo plan has everyone found to work best to make bathroom time easy and quick?  
What foods are easiest to pass or get fully absorbed by the body so you don't need to have many BM's?  

I was thinking that maybe a diet high or exclusively of foods that most if not all is absorbed by the body, is that even possible?  
I think most if not all meat and fats are absorbed right?  and fruits too?  but all veggies have fiber that is not digested so that may put strain on the colon?  Just my assumptions so if i am wrong or you have any insight on this - I really want to know :-)

I have a medical condition called "tortured redundant colon" meaning i have many twists/knots in my colon that it takes a long time to complete a bowel movement which leads to constipation, straining, hemorrhoids etc...  

insight on diet plans?

thank you!!
Aly

Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 04, 2011, 11:18:11 am
I have redundant colon too, though it wasn't termed tortured. So far I have found a diet somewhat similar to the one Aajonus Vonderplanitz recommends to be the best for my bowel health, though constipation is still a problem for me. Foods that seem to help or at least not contribute as much to the constipation as other foods tend to be soft, easily digestible and/or fatty, such as raw eggs, marrow, avocados, liver, raw fermented honey and berries. To help with the constipation without eating more honey or fruit than I can handle and to keep my calories up (as I'm prone to underweight) and to I hope not worsen a small dental cary I've had since 2008 (which I'm hoping will remineralize with secondary dentin), I have also added some cooked foods not sanctioned here: tallow and lard (which I find more easily digestible than raw suet and pork leaf fat, though the rendered versions don't give me as good a feeling of well being), and boiled (and sometimes raw soaked) sweet potatoes. Meat tends to contribute to my constipation, even ground beef. It's a difficult balancing act, because other than the constipation, my health fares best overall when I eat plenty of meat and very little carbs. I think fish contributes less to the constipation than beef, but it's difficult to say.

I tried other suggestions made here, but they didn't work for me, though that doesn't mean they wouldn't for you. I take senna tea when the constipation gets bad. I tried cassia fistula fruit, which also contains sennosides, but found that even a single disc of it was too harsh for me after experimenting with it for a while, and I discarded what was left (which was annoying, because I can only purchase it from foreign countries and it's quite expensive, especially when including the shipping cost).

I'm still experimenting. I'd like to get to the point where I rarely to never need to take senna tea, as there are risks of side effects with long term use of foods containing sennosides and these foods are legumes (generally not considered Paleo because of their relatively high antinutrient content--though some legumes are edible raw and one--wild African groundnuts--may even have been consumed by Australopithecines) and they don't taste good to me--not even the first sip or bite.

For many years I tried the more conventional approaches of eating whole grains, plenty of veggies (many of which were cooked), beans and fruits and taking fiber supplements and it didn't help. For many years the physicians and nutritionist told me to eat more and more fiber, but it only made my health worse. A prescription product (polyethylene glycol) I was prescribed was particularly harmful, giving me terrible toe and foot cramps which were only resolved by potassium supplements (potassium-rich foods were not enough), and it worked less and less with the constipation over time. I also tried most of the recommended remedies at http://www.helpforibs.com and similar resources, including buying an IBS-therapy audio CD from that site (I had IBS-C with D, now it's more like basic chronic constipation, which is an improvement at least that occurred after I adopted a very low carb Paleo diet). I also tried other mind-body approaches like Dr. John Sarno's therapies for TMS, meditation, yoga, acupuncture, exercise, you-name-it.

If you find anything that helps you, please let us know.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: TylerDurden on April 04, 2011, 01:14:20 pm
It is true that eating raw animal foods will (in most cases) lead to smaller, less frequent bowel-movements.  At least, that is my own experience - unfortunately my own RZC(raw-zero-carb) experience was not successful in the long-term as I seem to need some raw carbs as well.

PP and Lex have mentioned getting problems with constipation, but I think Lex solved it by drinking lots more water. Lex also mentioned having initial issues- I think(?) he said that, because of his past vegan diet, his colon was too large, so that he, at first, took much longer to pass stools through his colon as they were much smaller than before, but that, over time, his colon shrank to a more normal size for an RZC diet, until things were fine.


I would avoid lard and tallow, IMO. PP is an exception, most others seem to find them less digestible, not more. My own experience, for example, is that any cooked animal food, fats especially, makes my stools much larger, and may cause constipation.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: miles on April 04, 2011, 10:06:05 pm
I hope not worsen a small dental cary I've had since 2008 (which I'm hoping will remineralize with secondary dentin),

How did you get the cary?
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 04, 2011, 11:42:32 pm
Thank you guys, this does help me get a better idea. 

Paleo Phil - I will check out that site :-) Thank you!
So if I get this right, it's the "softness" of the food (even cooked veg?) and easy "digestibility/food combing" that is key on AV's diet to have a regularity?

 Also i got the idea it's really about fat more so than protein and fruits for reguarlity?    I know he is not a proponent of veg unless juiced ( i have his recipe book  ;)).

How about raw dairy, like cheese?  I always thought it constipated me but maybe putting it on raw veggies was not the best way to eat it.

Just some info that may be helpful -
Phil - After using cascara sengrada in the past (that gave me my first regular BM's EVER) i developed "melanosis Coli"  that is also when i  was diagnosed with "Torturous Redundant Colon" in that colonscopy.  I am just sharing that with you b/c the doctor warned me that senna will do the same thing to the colon :(
What i have found to be very helpful, in a way to avoid laxatives, was to take Vitamin C or Cal/Mag.   

I also read a book online called "Fiber Menace"
http://www.fibermenace.com/fibermenace/about_fm.html
and it really got me to lower fiber foods (even though they gave me better BM's  :()
In that book he notes how 1 pound of beef equals to 5 grams of stool, that's refreshing b/c i would think after consuming that weight of food you would have more waste product but apparently it all gets absorbed.  Most stool should be bacteria anyways from what i read, so i have been making kefir water and coconut kefir (not sure if it helps though ???).


 
   
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 05, 2011, 05:56:09 am
How did you get the cary?
2008 was back when I was rather ill and eating a cooked Paleo diet, with much more carbs, including cooked carbs like winter squashes and tubers, and dried fruits. I thought I got the cary recently, but my former dentist wrote me a recap in which he said that he first spotted it in 2008. I guess I forgot. I'm actually amazed that it hasn't become big and painful since then. Does anyone know how long it normally takes before a cary becomes painful?
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 05, 2011, 06:09:25 am
Thank you guys, this does help me get a better idea.  

Paleo Phil - I will check out that site :-) Thank you!
You're welcome. None of the tips at that site worked for me, except eliminating wheat and dairy which I had already done, and I found the subliminal audio CD to be mostly a waste of money, though it was relaxing, but maybe you'll find something useful for you there.

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So if I get this right, it's the "softness" of the food (even cooked veg?) and easy "digestibility/food combing" that is key on AV's diet to have a regularity?
That's my guess. Hasn't been a total cure for me, though--but then I don't eat precisely as he recommends. He doesn't have stomach acid, so he needs to eat only easily-digested foods. I figure that foods that are easier to digest are also probably easier to poop out. ;D

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Also i got the idea it's really about fat more so than protein and fruits for reguarlity?    I know he is not a proponent of veg unless juiced ( i have his recipe book  ;)).
Yup, that's my guess too.

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How about raw dairy, like cheese?  I always thought it constipated me but maybe putting it on raw veggies was not the best way to eat it.
I would think that any dairy products that contain lots of calcium might constipate, and in the past they did seem to add mildly to my constipation problem. Presumably the fattier dairy products like butter would be less of a problem.

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Phil - After using cascara sengrada in the past (that gave me my first regular BM's EVER) i developed "melanosis Coli"  that is also when i  was diagnosed with "Torturous Redundant Colon" in that colonscopy.  I am just sharing that with you b/c the doctor warned me that senna will do the same thing to the colon :(
I had read that before, but everything I read said that it is totally benign and resolves after one stops ingesting foods and products that contain sennosides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanosis_coli#Prognosis). Did your physician say otherwise? I do wonder about it, because so many things are claimed to be benign that later turn out to be symptoms of harm.
 
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What i have found to be very helpful, in a way to avoid laxatives, was to take Vitamin C or Cal/Mag.
I tried vitamin C. It was a disaster for me. Cal/Mag combos tend to have twice as much Cal as Mag and they tend to constipate me.

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I also read a book online called "Fiber Menace"
I've seen a video by the Fiber Menace guy.

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Most stool should be bacteria anyways from what i read, so i have been making kefir water and coconut kefir (not sure if it helps though ???).
I haven't tried kefir yet, though I've tried various brands of yogurt and various expensive probiotics that are advertised as the best in the world. All with no effect. Several people kept telling me that flaxseed oil would help and I took it for years with no benefit. They wouldn't believe me, so I drank a 10 oz glass of the stuff to demonstrate that there was zero effect for me. One fellow was shocked and amazed. He didn't think anyone could do that without getting bad diarrhea. LOL

This topic reminds me that I haven't been eating many raw eggs lately. One of the things that does seem to help me.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 05, 2011, 06:30:55 am
Paleo Phil -
About the cavy - that means cavity right?  Sorry i am new to this forum so don't know lingo here at all -\
I have had issues in the mouth, mainly from grinding my teeth at night but one source that has really really helped me with everything dealing with the mouth is the book "Cure Tooth Decay"
Highly recommend that book for anyone who has teeth issues!  He also has a website that is very helpful:
http://www.curetoothdecay.com/
Kudos' to you to have a cavity for that long without pain!  According to that book it would be b/c of this diet you do, it actually is the diet he recommends for tooth health (Weston A Price or AV's). 
When i had a cavity that started to hurt I did "oil Pulling" really helped!
He walks you thru how to heal cavities wihtout getting drilled and filled  ;D

ABout the senna  - yes he did say 6 months to 1 year after i am completely off it my villa will be healthy again. It's been several years since i stopped it and I have done colonics to strengthen those muscles again and i think it helped. 

The probiotic i did notice help me is "New Chapter's - colon probiotic" 

Can I ask a question - will high fat make me fat?  That will up my calories a LOT  and being a girl who once was overweight on more fats than i eat now i am hessitant to take that route  ???

Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 05, 2011, 06:38:06 am
PP and Lex have mentioned getting problems with constipation,
I've had a lifetime problem with it--as far back as I can remember. I think Lex's problem was a temporary issue that resolved once he adapted to his all-meat/fat/organs diet.

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but I think Lex solved it by drinking lots more water. Lex also mentioned having initial issues- I think(?) he said that, because of his past vegan diet, his colon was too large,
Yeah, that also sounds like redundant colon and/or stretched colon walls. I think I have both, and my colon does seem tighter now based on the fact that my near-hernia retracted and I've developed muscle definition in my lower abdomen, and based on the size and shape of my stools and the improved signals I get (at its worst years ago, I had almost no signals to go at all and had to remember to try going).

I try to drink lots of water, but it doesn't help much, oddly enough. Some of my best bowels were when I was drinking very little fluid of any sort. I have no explanation for it other than the best bowels appear to occur in the early periods of a dietary change, such as when I first went Paleo, when I first went ZC and when I first softened my diet. It seems to give a sort of temporary relief to my body, then it's like the body gradually adapts and the constipation sets in again. I've been trying to mix things up during the week, eating one way one day and another very different way another day, but that hasn't produced any noticeable effect.

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so that he, at first, took much longer to pass stools through his colon as they were much smaller than before, but that, over time, his colon shrank to a more normal size for an RZC diet, until things were fine.
I was hoping that was going to be the case for me too, and I initially had good bowel improvements on my brief RZC experiment, but then it gradually started worsening again. I gradually added more fruits and veg, in part to see if that would help as well as because I would prefer to eat some plant foods for variety and insurance (such as from potential benefits from hormesis, avoidance of nutrient deficiencies, etc.), until I was eating about the ratio that you eat, but the constipation continued to worsen until I developed a hemorrhoid flare. At that point I decided to get really serious about it and figured that if what goes in me is soft and fatty, it's less likely to harden inside me and thus less likely to cause constipation or hemorrhoidal pain. Because of my extra-long redundant colon, it takes longer for food to go through me and there is more time for water to be sucked out of it in the colon and harden. This has produced some improvement and the hemorrhoidal flareup did subside, but I still have a ways to go.

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I would avoid lard and tallow, IMO. PP is an exception, most others seem to find them less digestible, not more. My own experience, for example, is that any cooked animal food, fats especially, makes my stools much larger, and may cause constipation.
That's surprising, I hadn't heard of tallow or lard causing constipation before. I have heard of people having difficulty digesting raw suet, with much of it coming out the other end. I notice less visible fat in my stools when I eat tallow and lard than when I eat raw suet, so I figured it was more digestible in the sense of not just passing through, which would make sense because the tough connective tissue is rendered out of it. However, if I heat tallow too high or too long it does give me stomach burps, which is a different issue.


Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 05, 2011, 06:42:43 am
...one source that has really really helped me with everything dealing with the mouth is the book "Cure Tooth Decay"
Highly recommend that book for anyone who has teeth issues!  He also has a website that is very helpful:
http://www.curetoothdecay.com/
Yes, thanks--I bought the book and have gotten helpful answers from him at his website.

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Kudos' to you to have a cavity for that long without pain!  According to that book it would be b/c of this diet you do, it actually is the diet he recommends for tooth health (Weston A Price or AV's).
Yes, I have incorporated some of his tips in my diet and dental care routine and I switched to a holistic dentist that was listed on a website he recommended.

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When i had a cavity that started to hurt I did "oil Pulling" really helped!
Thanks for that reminder. I don't digest coconut oil well, but I could try the oil pulling, which gets spit out anyway, right? I have found that chewing raw suet helps me too.

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ABout the senna  - yes he did say 6 months to 1 year after i am completely off it my villa will be healthy again. It's been several years since i stopped it and I have done colonics to strengthen those muscles again and i think it helped.
Did he say how the coloration supposedly hurts the villi?

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The probiotic i did notice help me is "New Chapter's - colon probiotic"
Yeah, I've tried that one, thanks. I used to work at a store that sold it.

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Can I ask a question - will high fat make me fat?  That will up my calories a LOT  and being a girl who once was overweight on more fats than i eat now i am hessitant to take that route  ???
Can I answer that with a question? Did you get that idea from a specific source that I could refute for you (in other words, if the fat is raw, the answer is likely no--although Lex Rooker did add some body fat when he was eating a very high % of fat and very high caloric intake--but I don't know if any of it was pemmican or rendered fat)?
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 05, 2011, 10:25:20 am
Wow, that is great you already have many of  the resources i know of working for you and some that don't so much, I'm sorry.  At least you have the diet that works, that's the main thing.

I'm bummed that N.C. probiotic did not work for you, it was the best i have used thus far but i know there are much better ones available somewhere, just not sure what they are yet.  

About the villi -it was blackened and according to the doctor it was directly related to the stimulant laxative. having damaged the villi also lead to malabsorption of nutrients in the intestines.  All around not good and not worth being regular if it was killing the villi and not absorbing the nutrients from the food and supplements i put so much into.  

Yes i do sometimes have problems with vit. C - gives you the runs if you have too much.  Cal/Mag -  I always take more magnesium than calcium to prevent constipation effects of calcium.  If that was all i needed to do i would not be searching for more info on this  -\
 
Fats - raw vegan world and my own experience (but I was also eating cooked meats on my low carb/high fat days)  I have never cut out veggies to the degree many do here so this is something i am working on.  But if it will help with the bowels I will cut out veg really soon  :D

Please keep me posted on any thing that works for you, you seem to be way ahead of me on making headway in this department!!

Alycia
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 05, 2011, 11:13:59 am
About the villi -it was blackened and according to the doctor it was directly related to the stimulant laxative.
Yes, we've already established that much, but I've searched this before and I've never found anything that suggested that the coloring of the colon by sennosides was anything but benign. That doesn't guarantee that it is benign, of course, but if there is already some known real damage that it causes, I'd like to know about it. In what way did your physician claim that this coloring damaged the villi? Are you sure he didn't also say that the villi were flattened or something like that, which definitely has been connected to gliadin and other factors that can spark autoimmunity, rather than sennosides? Flattened villi have been connected to malabsorption, but senna-discoloration has not, AFAIK.

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Yes i do sometimes have problems with vit. C - gives you the runs if you have too much.
My problem was that ascorbic acid would give me bad stomach upset long before it loosened the stool at all. The only way I could take enough to loosen the bowels was to take capsules, and then the effect was extremely harsh. It went quickly from no effect at all to horrendous. Not something I wish to risk again. I've heard that there's another form of vitamin C that's less harsh, but I'm a bit gun shy at this point. ;D

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Cal/Mag -  I always take more magnesium than calcium to prevent constipation effects of calcium.  If that was all i needed to do i would not be searching for more info on this  -\
Yup, same here. I found that to loosen the bowels I again needed to take so much Mg that it could easily tilt into an overdose with violent diarrhea, flushing, etc. So I do take some Mg, but only as part of a larger overall program, and if I occasionally consume any of Dr. Ron's natural bone meal, I take more Mg with that to minimize the risk of worsened constipation. One bright side of this is that it only tends to take a calcium supplement or two to resolve diarrhea for me, and another bright side is I haven't had diarrhea recently other than that caused by cassia fistula, whereas I used to get diarrhea every now and then in between the constipation (possibly at times as the body's response to a blockage, to expel it) and at times I would have both at the same time (that may sound impossible but others have reported the same thing, and I recall reading about it in some authoritative sources, I again suspect it can occur when constipated feces have been in the colon too long and/or contain something particularly inflammatory to the colon, and the body then reacts by producing lots of mucus and/or water and expelling it the mess with sudden spasmodic muscle contractions).
 
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Fats - raw vegan world and my own experience (but I was also eating cooked meats on my low carb/high fat days)
Ah, that explains it. There is so much falsehood promoted in the raw vegan world, that to address it all would require several volumes. I'm also a member at Giveittomeraw and am also familiar with the 30BAD forum via GITMR and some past trolling that some 30BAD members did of this forum. It's very sad to see quite a few people destroying their health while claiming to be in perfect health (but refusing to get any bloodwork done, strangely, and even if a B12 deficiency or other deficiency develops, some remain in denial and say that it's no problem because they can just take B12 or omega 3 or other supplement).

I look at those forums less and less, because my parents instilled in me the ethic to help others, and most of them don't want my sort of help (though some have thanked me for the info I've shared, sometimes with private messages, so they don't get chewed out by the most zealous vegans), and some of the cases are quite painful to see. I've seen men reduced to effeminate-looking skeletons, all the while they're saying how great they look and feel and other vegans are chiming in. Once in a while someone will pipe up and say, "But he looks like a concentration camp victim!" like the boy who pointed out that the emperor was wearing no clothes, only to be chastised and contradicted by most of the others. It's amazing what confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, and green eye shades can do to people. This is one reason that I was attracted here by Lex Rooker's journal, because he shared the bad and ugly along with the good, and I've endeavored to do the same. Sometimes folks mistake that for an attack on their favorite foods, but that's not my purpose--I just try to be open and honest about my experience and not mislead myself or others.

The ones that seem to fair better and stay on a veg-heavy diet longer are the ones that include a little bit of animal food, like eggs or fish, in their diet. I recommend trying raw animal fats yourself one at a time before you conclude that they all constipate. It might be wise to start out small, as damaged digestion could inhibit your ability to digest a lot of fat. I've found that to be the case for me. As my digestion has gradually healed, I've been able to digest more and more fat. Connective tissue, lean meat and vegetable fiber are still apparently somewhat difficult for me to break down as well as most folks.

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I have never cut out veggies to the degree many do here so this is something i am working on.  But if it will help with the bowels I will cut out veg really soon  :D
It may, though individuals vary on both level of efficacy and time for improvements to occur. I suppose the only way to find out is to try it.

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Please keep me posted on any thing that works for you, you seem to be way ahead of me on making headway in this department!!
Sure, I've been at it for years. ;D I try to look on it with a positive perspective and a bit of humor, and enjoy freaking people out with the amount of stuff I can consume with zero impact on my bowels that gives most folks terrible runs. :D Oddly enough, the probiotics that seem to have helped me most (though not that much with constipation per se, but I think that they at least don't contribute to constipation and may help a little) are raw fermented cold liver oil and raw fermented honey. I never would have guessed the latter and I don't recall anyone ever recommending it. It just seemed like something worth trying.

One nice thing currently is that my hemorrhoids happen to be more shrunk down right now than they have been in quite some time despite some continued constipation. Also, there have been brief periods where I've had essentially perfect bowels, which shows me that there's the potential for further improvements over the longer run.

It does get frustrating at times, though, having to remember to be aware of it and not eat too much of this or that or too little of the other. I envy the traditional Siberians like the Evenks with sound digestion, flora and colons that can eat nothing but meat (including fat, organs and blood), fish, fermented reindeer milk and water for months on end without the slightest constipation and who don't understand why Westerners get constipated when they eat the same stuff.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 05, 2011, 11:52:39 pm
Oh i am sorry  :(, i did not come out and directly answer that one - it is a benign condition.  He really did not even go into that, he just said "Stop It!."  So I did.  It was rough though, nadda would make me go.  That is why i went to get colonics to help strengthen those muscles back up and it really did help.    Also why I went on the high raw vegan diet and that helped too.  BUT i am learning that much fiber, even fruits and veg, is just too much for the colon to take long term.

I've used the fermented cod liver and butter oil, but have not seen the honey, i will need to check that one out!  Or are you fermenting it yourself and know where i can find the recipe? 

I am going to need to read up on this type of diet and transitioning - all i have read is AV's book.
I'll look for past post from you and others on making this transition and keep my personal issues in mind  ;D.  I'm definitely going to try and find some stories you have shared on "freaking people out" :o  and idea's you have passed along in other threads.

Thank you Phil!! You have been a huge help getting me one step further in this journey :)

alycia
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 06, 2011, 05:39:43 am
Oh i am sorry  :(, i did not come out and directly answer that one - it is a benign condition.  He really did not even go into that, he just said "Stop It!."  So I did.
OK, my best guess is he doesn't want you to be dependent on sennoside laxatives.

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That is why i went to get colonics to help strengthen those muscles back up and it really did help.
I hadn't heard this claim before. What colonic did you use and how is it supposed to improve the colon muscle tone?

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Also why I went on the high raw vegan diet and that helped too.  BUT i am learning that much fiber, even fruits and veg, is just too much for the colon to take long term.
Yeah, a gastroenterologist asked me if I eat a lot of veggies because he said that can cause redundant colon (as can long-term chronic constipation).

I rarely promote a single brand of anything, but the only raw fermented honey I know of is at http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH.

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I am going to need to read up on this type of diet and transitioning - all i have read is AV's book.
There's not a lot on it. This forum is probably the second best source after AV's rather eccentric books. :) BTW, I don't endorse everything that AV or any other guru says and advise folks to think, research, investigate and experiment themselves.

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I'll look for past post from you and others on making this transition and keep my personal issues in mind  ;D.  I'm definitely going to try and find some stories you have shared on "freaking people out" :o  and idea's you have passed along in other threads.
I was eating more meat in the past, which helped with a lot of stuff and even with the constipation for some weeks. I'm trying a soft-and-easily-digestible-food approach now, as I mentioned. I have to be careful though, too much carbs and my skin gets really dry and flaky and I get worsened dental problems and other issues. Luckily, the raw fermented honey has helped with the skin, which makes me think that it might be a candida overgrowth issue, as honey is supposed to be an antifungal, but I don't know why only the fermented honey has provided the benefit so far.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: miles on April 06, 2011, 07:21:36 am
After switching to cooked paleo(from non-paleo) I would sometimes do cartwheels straight after eating, just because I could.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 07, 2011, 03:08:25 am
OK, my best guess is he doesn't want you to be dependent on sennoside laxatives.

Have you done any cleanses (like renew life's, garden of life,  etc...) before you dove into this diet or when you were already on this diet?  I ask b/c I really would like to have a good terrain when i start this "completely" -i have been soooo dependent on fiber  :(
I bet my intestines are so stretched it will take awhile to get back to the right size. 
*I may start this as a topic in the discussion board if you or anyone does not have any advise on this one.  I would really like to see what has worked for people and b/c you also have redundant colon you know sensitivity to products.

I hadn't heard this claim before. What colonic did you use and how is it supposed to improve the colon muscle tone?

"Colon Irrigation" of warm water for about one hour.  it really works your muscles, I have been sore in the tummy like i had a great ab workout! 
You really just lay there and let your body allow the water in and when it feels it needs to release your muscles will contract and push it out (on its own - no straining  ;D)
I mainly noticed that after i did sessions of colonics i did not have to strain (until i ate bad foods or hard to digest fibers again and they just clogged me back up over time).  I personally should do it 2 times a year with my colon issues but it would be much more beneficial to get it done 1 time every couple of months.  The therapist told me it will help loosen the kinks/twist in the colon even though the MD said this was how my colon formed in the womb and only surgery will correct this. 
Yeah, a gastroenterologist asked me if I eat a lot of veggies because he said that can cause redundant colon (as can long-term chronic constipation).
REALLY!!!!!  Man i wish i would have known this or had a doctor like yours! 
But cooked veggies get absorbed right? 
I read that fiber is so broken down with cooked veggies you don't have to worry about BM's, not sure if that is true though  ???

I rarely promote a single brand of anything, but the only raw fermented honey I know of is at http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH.

Out of stock but i will watch the site for more, does that help with the colon too?  I don't do honey b/c of sugar, i use stevia but if this fermented honey will help colon issues i am going to give it a try!

There's not a lot on it. This forum is probably the second best source after AV's rather eccentric books. :) BTW, I don't endorse everything that AV or any other guru says and advise folks to think, research, investigate and experiment themselves.
You mentioned having the redundant colon so i pay attention when i see your name on topics that address this but i just don't have the time to read much either - don't like sitting down long enough.

alycia
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 07, 2011, 03:13:10 am
Sorry - not sure how to highlight the quotes yet -\
i'll get there  :)
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 08, 2011, 05:28:46 am
Quote
"Colon Irrigation" of warm water for about one hour.
Ah, those are what they used to call enemas when I was a wee lad. I used to dread them. They would temporarily free up a blockage, but they didn't address the underlying cause of the problem, so the constipation would usually return. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg was a big promoter and fan of enemas. He apparently used to give them to himself every day despite eating what he called a healthy breakfast food of cooked corn flakes. It apparently never occurred to him that the problems with breakfast cereals and other processed agrarian foods might be why he developed what he viewed as a need for enemas.

I purchased the small enema device that Lex Rooker got success with but found it inadequate for my needs. I hope I don't have to go the route of the big enema bag.

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The therapist told me it will help loosen the kinks/twist in the colon even though the MD said this was how my colon formed in the womb and only surgery will correct this.
My mother claims that the family chiropracter got the kink out of her colon with manipulation. I think he used some sort of massage-type technique like reiki or myofascial release or Swedish massage. Don't know whether he really helped her or it was just coincidences, but that chiropractor was one of only two that I ever noticed any spinal benefits from, or any benefits of any kind, for that matter. So if I still lived near there I might give it a try. If I don't have much additional success I might inquire into that sort of thing in my area. Thanks for the reminder.

I did try massage therapists in the past too. It was nice and relaxing but provided no noticeable benefit beyond that, whereas the chiropractor of my childhood seemed to lessen my back pain and help my posture, which in turn improved my muscle strength. I think he said that the bone impingement on neural connections were cutting down on the signals to my muscles. Theoretically that could contribute to constipation as well.

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REALLY!!!!!  Man i wish i would have known this or had a doctor like yours!
You wouldn't have wanted him. He prescribed Glycolax for me. I knew that was powerful stuff that cleaned people out before undergoing colonoscopies, so I asked him, "Is this stuff really safe to take every day?" and he said yes and assured me that there were "no side effects" with it. I was still skeptical, so I read the material that came with it and it did indeed seem to be very benign. Only after I developed very painful toe and foot cramps and did some online searching on polyethylene glycol (the generic name) did I discover that in Europe a law had been passed years earlier to require that electrolytes be added to the product so that it wouldn't give people electrolyte deficiencies and thus cramps, despite the claims of the American pharmaceutical company that sold it that it did nothing of the sort.
 
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But cooked veggies get absorbed right?
They don't get absorbed well in me. I had a cranky old doc at one point (one of my worst) who in regards to IBS-C just crankily spouted "Just eat cooked corn!" That sounded pretty nonsensical, but his nurse was a more reasonable and intelligent person and she also suggested I cut out dairy products, which had helped her. So I tried both--first eating lots of cooked corn (which largely went right through me) and then cutting out all dairy. Increasing my cooked corn intake only seemed to make matters worse if anything. Cutting out the dairy did seem to provide some small benefit and that was probably one of my first steps toward a Paleo-type diet.

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Out of stock
Their smallest size is still available if you're willing to pay for it. My next order I'm going to buy a case of the small jars to save a little money.

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but i will watch the site for more, does that help with the colon too?
I think it only helps me in the sense that it's soft and easily digestible and thus doesn't contribute to constipation. It hasn't been magically beneficial. I suppose it could partly be because I don't eat a pound a day of honey like Brady does, but I tried eating my max in one sitting, which was about 2/3 of a lb. It didn't do much noticeably for my bowels, but it did wonders for my skin.

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I don't do honey b/c of sugar
Yes, even raw honey spikes my BG and mucks up my teeth and gums, so I try not to overdo it.

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You mentioned having the redundant colon so i pay attention when i see your name on topics that address this but i just don't have the time to read much either - don't like sitting down long enough.

alycia
Hmm, not sure how fair or sporting it is to expect other people to do the work of providing you with info if you're not willing to put much time into your own searching or reciprocate, and what about the saying "The more you give, the more you will receive"? ;) On the other hand, it's good not to sit too long, as exercise can help the bowels some.


I not only tried the cleanses you mentioned, I used to sell them when I worked for a small health store and I know the BS marketing behind such products. What you do is you take a laxative product and you add some fancy-sounding herbs to it and then call it a "cleanse" and double the price. Or even better, you sell the exact same ingredients as a cheap laxative but just give it a fancy name and a lot of advertising and convince people there's something special about it. Instead of calling what comes out shit, you call it "toxins" or "poisons", so people feel like they're getting their money's worth instead of getting reamed. When I compared the ingredients list on cheap, generic products and saw that they were nearly or even exactly the same as some of the fancy-sounding expensive products, I realized that these marketers are brilliant. Completely lacking in ethics, but brilliant.

For example, this elderly lady came into the store one day and asked for H2Go. A clever name. We didn't have the product and it wasn't even in our catalogs to order, but I looked it up with the store's Internet connection and found that the ingredients were:

Magnesium 1152mg 288%
(as magnesium oxide)
Sodium (as sodium croscarmellose) 8mg 1%

Other Ingredients:
Microcrystalline cellulose, menthol.


...which were precisely the ingredients on one of our cheapest Mg products. I showed the lady this, but she insisted, "No, no it HAS to be H2Go, the one on TV" (in their ads they use marketing BS like "Only H2Go has Active Magnesia") and she had a zombie look on her face. I knew then that the sale was lost, told her about the other couple stores in town that sold supplements and wished her good luck in finding the product.

After looking at all the "cleanse" and "natural laxative" products on the shelves and on the Internet, I realized that most contained one or more of three basic ingredients: fiber (usually insoluble, sometimes soluble or both, with insoluble psyllium being the most common fiber ingredient and soluble inulin being another common one and there are pricier soluble fibers like acacia, guar gum and pectin), magnesium (most often magnesium hydroxide, which is both the cheapest form and also the strongest laxative Mg because it's the least absorbable/bioavailable form) and senna/sennosides. If the rest of the stuff were truly super-effective, they wouldn't need to add one or more of the big three.

While I worked in that store I used the opportunity to try lots of the products and learn about them and ask my customers if they got any benefits. I was rather disappointed to learn that neither I nor most of my customers got noteworthy benefits from most of them.

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i have been soooo dependent on fiber  :(
I bet my intestines are so stretched it will take awhile to get back to the right size.
That may well be. I've had great improvement, but still have a ways to go. Such physical structure changes have taken longer to improve and resolve for me than issues like GERD that cleared up quickly once I hit on the way of eating that did the trick.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 08, 2011, 06:54:46 am
Ah, those are what they used to call enemas when I was a wee lad. I used to dread them. They would temporarily free up a blockage,

I'm pretty sure she's talking about colon hydrotherapy (hopefully gravity based). If anyone can hold an enema for an hour I will shake their hand and give them 20 bucks.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/colon-cleanse/msg52988/#msg52988

There seems to be only two ways to really put a serious dent in solving intestinal kinks and that is the above or hardcore water fasting. A regular enema is just sort of a lower intestinal wash. Possibly a very low fiber - high digestible - raw fat based diet with lots of eggs (and other primal stuff - hint) is likely the best way to keep things moving and increase overall health so these things can repair itself, but it seems only when its mostly empty can it really reshape itself super well.

I know of a guy who supposedly would not change his SWD but got so into the hydrotherapy that he taught himself how to do it and did them so regularly that it even freaked out the practitioners who are usually pretty obsessive about it themselves. Anyway, within a few years not only did he correct alot of his intestinal stuff but supposedly noticeably shifted his whole internal chemistry and blood profile. I don't recommend that of course but its interesting.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 08, 2011, 07:20:52 am



 
He prescribed Glycolax for me. I knew that was powerful stuff that cleaned people out before undergoing colonoscopies, so I asked him, "Is this stuff really safe to take every day?" and he said yes and assured me that there were "no side effects" with it.

Yup, mine gave me Lactulose - awful cramping and the runs.. 



sell the exact same ingredients as a cheap laxative but just give it a fancy name and a lot of advertising and convince people there's something special about it. Instead of calling what comes out shit, you call it "toxins" or "poisons", so people feel like they're getting their money's worth instead of getting reamed. When I compared the ingredients list on cheap, generic products and saw that they were nearly or even exactly the same as some of the fancy-sounding expensive products, I realized that these marketers are brilliant. Completely lacking in ethics, but brilliant.
HAHA  ;D
Yes I agree with everything in that quote. 
Wanting to rebuild and gain intestinal health may not be happening on cleanses, it just helps you "move some things out."   The colon therapist i saw did recommend to me "intestinal Soothe and build" from  Natures Sunshine. 

You know if you don't feel/notice a difference using a product THEN it's not working!  However i don't think i mentioned this on the board - i have used 2 products that i believe come from reputable companies.  I noticed it working within a day or two. " ALoe Life ALoe Vera Gold".  Body Ecology "Vitality Greens" I was and still am pretty sold on Body Ecology Products, i use to moderate there yahoo group  ;)


Hmm, not sure how fair or sporting it is to expect other people to do the work of providing you with info if you're not willing to put much time into your own searching or reciprocate, and what about the saying "The more you give, the more you will receive"? ;) On the other hand, it's good not to sit too long, as exercise can help the bowels some.
No worries I defiantly do my work and will put in what i can, I'm still learning this lifestyle which i need to be part of.   i just have not been there with this diet/lifestyle yet (still trying to figure somethings out on it).   What i was thinking is this site has so much info and interaction, i could not keep up.  To someone who was a veagn most of her life - i would have to sit at the computer till on end reading all that is here, which is a very good thing I just can't do ti with having little ones at home.  It is a great group and I am really excited about being part of it. 
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 08, 2011, 07:24:51 am
I'm pretty sure she's talking about colon hydrotherapy (hopefully gravity based). If anyone can hold an enema for an hour I will shake their hand and give them 20 bucks.


HAHA  ;D
yes that is what i meant.  I don't think it is possible to hold water that long  :)
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/colon-cleanse/msg52988/#msg52988

There seems to be only two ways to really put a serious dent in solving intestinal kinks and that is the above or hardcore water fasting. A regular enema is just sort of a lower intestinal wash. Possibly a very low fiber - high digestible - raw fat based diet with lots of eggs (and other primal stuff - hint) is likely the best way to keep things moving and increase overall health so these things can repair itself, but it seems only when its mostly empty can it really reshape itself super well.

I know of a guy who supposedly would not change his SWD but got so into the hydrotherapy that he taught himself how to do it and did them so regularly that it even freaked out the practitioners who are usually pretty obsessive about it themselves. Anyway, within a few years not only did he correct alot of his intestinal stuff but supposedly noticeably shifted his whole internal chemistry and blood profile. I don't recommend that of course but its interesting.
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Thank you that is great advice!!!
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 08, 2011, 09:02:01 am
if you are considering doing raw and the internal stuff..I would probably space them out. I actually havn't done the full on hydrotherapy on this diet. I was thinking about it as an experiment but havn't gotten to it.

So, the best thing would probably be to start with one or the other. Since you've already done some of colon stuff and you feel like you've made some progress you could try raw animal/veg food diet for 3-6 months and see how that works then ease into doing another series of hydrotherapy, or not. Or you could do more and then start the diet more seriously. Usually people find their is less cravings and such that way if that is any issue.

If I was planning on doing a colonic, I would probably fast for at least a few days on water or vegetable juices and eggs. I would follow it with at least a day of juice fast and probably more eggs again for a bit before I got into raw meat. I'd likely do 2 treatments a couple days apart as well.

Also I wouldn't tell the practitioner you fancy the idea of raw meat, they might subconsciously (or consciously!@) give you a shit treatment. :/
I find alot of it is in the energy/massage work, and generally i'm pretty selective about the people I would go to.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 08, 2011, 09:19:24 am
I'm pretty sure she's talking about colon hydrotherapy (hopefully gravity based).
I still consider colonics to be fancy, more-thorough enemas, which we'll just have to agree to disagree on I guess, and if it worked for you, then congrats.

Quote
Possibly a very low fiber - high digestible - raw fat based diet with lots of eggs (and other primal stuff - hint) is likely the best way to keep things moving and increase overall health so these things can repair itself, but it seems only when its mostly empty can it really reshape itself super well.
I'm eating that sort of diet and I was recently thoroughly cleansed from head to toe by the Instincto favorite--cassia fistula. Plus, I had a colonoscopy several years ago in which I also was thoroughly cleaned out (I had to be or else the procedure would have had to be canceled). So I guess I should be in good shape on those scores.

To someone who was a veagn most of her life - i would have to sit at the computer till on end reading all that is here, which is a very good thing I just can't do ti with having little ones at home.  It is a great group and I am really excited about being part of it.  
Good point. You have to relearn a lot of stuff just to get to square one. It's probably good not to bite off too much early on and possibly get overwhelmed.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 08, 2011, 09:46:33 am
I still consider colonics to be fancy, more-thorough enemas, which we'll just have to agree to disagree on I guess, and if it worked for you, then congrats.
I'm eating that sort of diet and I was recently thoroughly cleansed from head to toe by the Instincto favorite--cassia fistula. Plus, I had a colonoscopy several years ago in which I also was thoroughly cleaned out (I had to be or else the procedure would have had to be canceled). So I guess I should be in good shape on those scores.


phil, if you think this then you really have absolutely no concept of what a colonic is. You must have never bothered to even read about it so I suggest actually at least reading a few 'pro' sites before making your passive-aggressive conclusions. I don't see what the competition is or what your pro or con experiences are of relevance here. For yourself either you are now are in perfect intestinal health or your arn't, but for me I had one comment directed at you as far as knowing what the OP was talking about. What do my comments on water fasting and colonics have to do with your experiments or failures? I'm not projecting per se any method is appropriate to the situation, only ideas or misconceptions about what the internal systems might be needed to heal.


Anyway the main structural difference (which makes all the difference) is the water goes in and out through a 5 gallon tank that refills multiple times wheres an enema goes in one shot and not very far and is held for an excruciating amount of time for any positive effect at all. It fills almost the entire colon multiple times with various pressures controlled by the practitioner, so its like Niagara falls compared to a drinking fountain. You also DO get an intestinal massage the entire time  from a trained professional for exactly such purposes. The colonoscopy 'argument' about how the colon is like the inside of the mouth has proven to be bullshit for one and anyway the colonic isn't necessary meant to scrape 'muccoid plaque' necessarily. What it really gets at is carbonic gasses which I could probably lose just about everyone talking about...

It does also happen to be one of the few times the colon is mostly emptied out (no method actually empties the entire thing) and its just obvious how something filled with water can reform in ways that it cannot when its filled with solid or impacted matter or is in use. Generally the best way to break down matter is through water fasting, but it can be dangerous for most people in most situations to do extended fasting, so some 'intervention' is likely the only other fix.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 08, 2011, 10:35:42 am
phil, if you think this then you really have absolutely no concept of what a colonic is. You must have never bothered to even read about it
You assumed incorrectly. Sure, I oversimplified by initially basically calling it an enema--perhaps that's what ticked you off--and I'll grant it "fancy enema" or even "fancy, gentle enema" status if that will mollify you, but I did read a little about "high colonics" aka "colonic irrigation" when some raw vegans mentioned it months ago to find out what they were talking about. Isn't this the basic sort of thing you've been talking about:

home version--(http://www.homecolonics.com/kitdiaphot/kitdiaphot.jpg)

clinical version--(http://www.accelerated-wellness.com/images/Picture1.jpg) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7f20sEMclM&feature=player_embedded

Believe me, folks at raw vegan forums go on about colonics quite a bit. For some reason, proponents of it don't seem to take "I'm not interested, thanks and if you like it, good on ya'" for an answer and I'm apparently not allowed to have an opinion that it's anything less than fantastic. Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree about it because it's clear that you feel very strongly about it and I don't care enough about it one way or another to debate it. You don't have to agree with me and I encourage you to think for yourself and express your opinions to any that might be interested.

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passive-aggressive conclusions
That's curious, you're coming across as more passive-aggressive to me, because you seem more interested in debating it than I am. Like I said, if it works for you, great. I'm happy for you. Enjoy it.

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I don't see what the compeition is..
Neither do I. What competition? I could care less if you think that colonics are absolute perfection. Believe whatever you wish. I'm just not convinced. Am I not allowed to not be convinced by your claims? Are you the thought police or something?

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either you are now are in perfect intestinal health or your arn't.
I don't seek perfection in anything. I'm not into perfectionism.

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What does my comments on water fasting and colonics have to do with your experiments?
I have no idea and I don't particularly care. I was just responding to your post. If you don't like what I wrote, then you're free to skip it. I tried to phrase things as diplomatically as I could to avoid tweaking any sensitive feelings. I can't think of a more sensitive way to phrase things without having to lie so as to agree with you. If my disagreement upsets you, there's nothing I can do about that while remaining honest, which I prefer to do, as I value honesty. I don't expect you to lie and say that colonic irrigation seems like quackery just to please me and it doesn't upset me that you disagree with me. I actually get some of the best value from folks who disagree with me, because at times I learn interesting stuff, even if it's sometimes just about what other opinions are and what folks feel really strongly about, responding to counterpoints can sometimes help clarify my own thinking, and so on.

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Anyway The main structural difference (which makes all the difference) is the water goes in and out through a 5 gallon tank...
Yes, I know about all that stuff, thanks and my opinion remains unchanged. Sorry if this upsets you.

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... has proven to be bullshit....
OK, I think that moves you up form passive aggressive to qualify for openly aggressive ;), which I respect more but can still be distracting from constructive discourse. I prefer to leave emotion out of things and deal straight-forwardly with the facts. If that's considered passive aggressive, then so be it. I don't care for drama and I'm not swayed by emotion. I hope this explains things. I can't think of a way to put it more plainly and politely.

Peace and good health,
PP
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 08, 2011, 10:47:04 am
phil you need help man, this is not an acceptable way to correspond with someone. just looking at below is enough without this above mess..there was nothing addressed to you but you chose to bring our own personal crap in. you were either bothered that I pointed out you were wrong, or some kind of insecurity as to whether this concept is helpful or not. end of story. bullshit is an appropriate term for people who try to engage in concepts they don't understand and have 0 experience with or knowledge about. For the record no these arn't woods gravity hydrotherapy units, not remotely. notice the lack of gravity except in the diagram which is not the same either. so you don't know what the thing even looks like.

I still consider colonics to be fancy, more-thorough enemas, which we'll just have to agree to disagree on I guess, and if it worked for you, then congrats.

Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 08, 2011, 10:49:36 am
phil you need help man...
Spare me the psychological analysis. If you don't like my opinions, don't read my posts. It's a free country. If you post on a public forum you should expect that some people are going to at times express opinions that don't jibe with yours. If you can't handle that, then a public forum may not be your bag.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 08, 2011, 10:54:26 am
Spare me the psychological analysis. If you don't like my opinions, don't read my posts. It's a free country. If you post on a public forum you should expect that some people are going to at times express opinions that don't jibe with yours. If you can't handle that, then a public forum may not be your bag.

phil its not a expression of opinions. you took it personally and now you are trying to spin it some other crazy way. the fact is you don't have knowledge on this subject matter but you chose to weigh in on it anyway. Now that I point that out, you are the one that can't handle it and are continuously throwng out this "if you don't like it do this". this is the definition of passive aggressive.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 08, 2011, 11:00:30 am
You assumed wrongly again. I thought of something that might help. I've noticed that you tend to get ticked off if someone expresses an opinion that differs from yours on one of your strongly held beliefs. If a post of yours is meant to be a private communication to just one other person that no one else is supposed to comment on with the slightest bit of disagreement, or if any difference of opinion is going to upset you, then perhaps a private message would be a more appropriate form of communication in those cases. And that's not to be passive aggressive, that's called trying to find something that will help you avoid this annoying behavior. Would you prefer an aggressively hostile response? Are you trying to annoy me enough that you tweak one out of me in a pot-stirring way?

If you're going to cry "passive aggressive" any time that someone expresses an opinion that differs from yours on one of your soap box issues, that's going to get real old. Actually, it has already gotten old.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 08, 2011, 11:18:07 am
I thought of something that might help. I've noticed that you tend to get ticked off if someone expresses an opinion that differs from yours on one of your strongly held beliefs.

phil explain to me (perhaps in a private message) where exactly I got 'ticked off' or what my beliefs are exactly? I said you have absolutely no idea what a colonic is, and this is true. I said your personal experience with cassia fistula or colonoscopy is irrelevant, and it is because you don't understand the basic premise. That isn't being nasty. I don't think anyone reading my comments about colonics would read anything as an attack on you. Every post you've contributed since I commented has had no accurate information and has ONLY consisted of drama or attempts basically to discredit what i'm saying while looking like a fool honestly. That might be hurtful but when I say things like that to me that is not an 'attack' its just true and measurable. See if you can get anyone to disagree.


Sorry if this upsets you. [passive aggressive]
OK, I think that moves you up form passive aggressive to qualify for openly aggressive ;), which I respect more but can still be distracting from constructive discourse. I prefer to leave emotion out of things and deal straight-forwardly with the facts. If that's considered passive aggressive, then so be it. I don't care for drama and I'm not swayed by emotion. I hope this explains things. I can't think of a way to put it more plainly and politely.

PP

passive is ok. openly aggressive is ok. i'm aggressive all the time. I think leaving out all emotion is something that seems sort of perfectionistic. I'm emotional by default as a person but I don't think i'm that passionate here, I mentioned I did colonics three years ago and am describing the process. In general I do seem to get in the same argument over and over and its usually just me defending the idea that theres more than one way to think about such things. In this instance, colonics are extremely unfavorable in RAF communities, so I have to claim that accepting they might be useful is certainly a minority 'open minded' stance.

 Its fairly not believable that you aren't emotionally invested here. The thing is is much of what you are writing is dishonest. The very form of passive aggressiveness means here is something that seems passive but is actually nasty so its dishonest. "I've thought of something that might help. YOU have a problem" "I'm happy for you. " "Sorry if this upsets you.", "then congrats. " These arn't genuine comments so yeah you should say things things like, "you are full of yourself" or just "fuck you". of course that is better because it gets direct to what you are trying to say anyway.

even this idea that you knew what the thing was..you obviously googled it and then didn't even grab the right thing which was precisely the model I mentioned in the other article as being damaging and giving a bad rap to the process. I understand pointing this out will only antagonize you further, but even you should be able to sort out the facts here. if it was any other issue you wouldn't approve of someone talking so much..with so little perspective on the issue.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: RawZi on April 08, 2011, 09:58:24 pm
    I've had colonics, in more than one country, in more than one ocean's distant thousands of miles offshore island, by more than one gender and here in the US.  Sometimes they helped.  Sometimes they didn't, but they never physically injured me.  I wish they helped every time.  I like RAF so much better.  I don't need colonics while I eat RAF.  My bowels always function as needed.  I can't offhand think of an RAF that could constipate me, not one that I've eaten in quantity.  I've tried all I can.

    I've performed colonic irrigations on other people too, even on a very ill naturopathic doctor.  I helped.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 08, 2011, 10:27:52 pm
I don't need colonics while I eat RAF.  My bowels always function as needed.  I can't offhand think of an RAF that could constipate me, not one that I've eaten in quantity.  I've tried all I can.


yeah I havn't experienced any constipation one single time on this diet, or in the last 5 years since starting with colonics to correct such things. I had pretty bad constipation in the past which would lead to other problems like headches and such.

Transitioning to a RAF diet seems to cause infrequent bowel movements for just about everyone(including myself). This isn't the same thing as constipation but when coupled with such and twisted/weak bowels it can be pretty destructive...as one of the only real methods for removing toxins coming out from such an extreme shift is through the bowel. Alot of this stuff can become reabsorbed or is just plan uncomfortable of course.

I don't really think about colonics much myself either anymore but I have been thinking with some other posts recently that its probably the only decisive thing that has really helped (other than diet). i mean..its takes me all of three seconds to have a bowel movement (in a crouch/squat) position eating basically no fiber. One of the other major things colonics do is actually restore a more natural peristalsis which is ruined by years of going to the bathroom by straining, its a cycle.

I just recently seemed to get the remaining kinks out with a water fast. My abs (which have a fair amount of muscle and not much else down there) were visually misaligned and a few days after the fast and targeted re feeding I had like a 25 inch bowel movement that was like two inches thick. Followed immediately by some other disgusting gunk. my abs are symmetrical now.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: Löwenherz on April 09, 2011, 12:50:06 am
I just recently seemed to get the remaining kinks out with a water fast. My abs (which have a fair amount of muscle and not much else down there) were visually misaligned and a few days after the fast and targeted re feeding I had like a 25 inch bowel movement that was like two inches thick. Followed immediately by some other disgusting gunk. my abs are symmetrical now.

Sounds really like HUGE amounts of gunk.

KD, if I remember correctly you have been on a fruit based diet in the past. Did you have any digestive problems during this time? Did this 'gunk' build up in your intestines before or after your fruit based diet?

I'm curios because I have the feeling that my vlc meat based diet leads to some buildup in my gi tract. From time to time I feel the desire to eat 2.478 kg of papayas to 'clean out' the whole tube.

Löwenherz
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 09, 2011, 01:36:05 am
KD, if I remember correctly you have been on a fruit based diet in the past. Did you have any digestive problems during this time? Did this 'gunk' build up in your intestines before or after your fruit based diet?

yeah, but the large "plaster cast" seemed mostly to just be new waste. I ate a bunch of whole egg and green (watery) florida avocado to ease back into meat, but I had been having some thin and messy/disconnected movements over the last 6 months - so it was good to see. The thing after looked pretty funky like a ton of lentils or something and was seemingly not food. i took photos..

I started doing the colon stuff after I transitioned to a raw vegan diet in early 06'. I didn't really know what I was doing (by raw vegan standards - whatever that means - but certainly lots of poor combing) and just had massive bowel issues which were exacerbated by previous experiments with other veg diets heavy in beans and things. Prior to that I had alot of various illness and stuff related or at least tied with poor bowel health I assume.

I switched to mostly fruits ~ 8 months later just because the diet I was doing wasn't working calorically. I always eliminated fine on a fruit diet ( I had already done quite a few of these treatments). Eventually I ditched doing the treatments and I seemed to thrive in some ways and then after a year or so I really got hit hard and quick. Personally I believe had I continued doing them I wouldn't have been stewing in as much waste and wouldn't have crashed as bad as I did. Without fat in particular there doesn't seem to be much a vehicle for one to remove waste stirred up with the fruits. I went back and did a bunch ~ when I started integrating animal stuff in my diet

----

I'm curios because I have the feeling that my vlc meat based diet leads to some buildup in my gi tract. From time to time I feel the desire to eat 2.478 kg of papayas to 'clean out' the whole tube.
Löwenherz


The thing i've been mulling around is whether some  ind of cleanses (food or otherwise) are helpful on this diet in very much the same way as with the fruit diet. I believe the animal fats on VLC should carry a good amount of this stuff through the bowel...but I don't know anymore. I'm definitely not saying colonics or any non-food cleanses are necessary, just that they might be helpful. I also think certain foods are more helpful then others with not all diets under LC umbrella being great for bowel health.

I like alot of the little kinds of food 'cleanses' and stuff myself. Basically my main point was if someone is looking to actually re-shape their intestines (and not necessarily cleanse debris from the bowel) filling it with water or attempting to let it reform during fasting seem to be the major assets. The former just seems more safe to me for peoples whose bowels arn't actually moving the stuff around on the fast.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 09, 2011, 02:24:30 am


I'm curios because I have the feeling that my vlc meat based diet leads to some buildup in my gi tract. From time to time I feel the desire to eat 2.478 kg of papayas to 'clean out' the whole tube.

I've read that most and i mean most (i don't remember if it was 95% but it was close) of uncooked protein is absorbed by the body the rest is turned to ash as it moves into the colon.  I recently listened to an interview on "Fiber MEnace" about this topic and the doctor behind that book also noted that protein, carbs, and fats are nearly 100% absorbed it's fiber that is not.  Poo is mainly dead cells, ash, and bacteria and then if you eat food that did not get digested (Fiber) it is in the poo. 
Pineapple really helps clean you out, better than papaya for me  ;)



I switched to mostly fruits ~ 8 months later just because the diet I was doing wasn't working calorically. I always eliminated fine on a fruit diet ( I had already done quite a few of these treatments). Eventually I ditched doing the treatments and I seemed to thrive in some ways and then after a year or so I really got hit hard and quick. Personally I believe had I continued doing them I wouldn't have been stewing in as much waste and wouldn't have crashed as bad as I did. Without fat in particular there doesn't seem to be much a vehicle for one to remove waste stirred up with the fruits. I went back and did a bunch ~ when I started integrating animal stuff in my diet
----
KD - what is your diet??
I'm guessing raw lowcarb not much fruit and veg? 
I just started on this forum, not familiar with you yet  -\,
I also was raw vegan for awhile - then looked into Wai diet for bowel reasons but read so much conflicting things about it.  It seems like it may NOT be worth the expense all that fruit sugar can take on ones body and teeth. 
Were you on the 80/10/10 diet in your high fruit days.  I have experimented with that and really had decent BM's on it but you know i think we need some meat and eggs to thrive! 


I also think certain foods are more helpful then others with not all diets under LC umbrella being great for bowel health.

Ok so what food is not helpful?  I want to make sure i don't over do it b/c i don't see myself doing a water fast - more reasons than i need to get into here but i just am not in the place to do one  :(
 
Basically my main point was if someone is looking to actually re-shape their intestines (and not necessarily cleanse debris from the bowel) filling it with water or attempting to let it reform during fasting seem to be the major assets. The former just seems more safe to me for peoples whose bowels aren't actually moving the stuff around on the fast.

How about really simple foods vita-mixed - if one can not fast and does not have a juicer, would this be just as good as juicing fast? 
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 09, 2011, 03:04:26 am
I didn't follow those programs specifically because I actually met alot of the gurus and associated people which was reason enough not to follow what they say..I just didn't know how to make a raw diet work successfully and thats what I came up with. I figured I could balance it with more greens or whatever other thing I could come up with. I guess it was similar. I would do things like just eat watermelon for weeks and stuff. no nuts/seeds and a few avocado every once in awhile.

btw for people that do eat a lot of fruit. watermelon can sort of function as a 'poor man's enema'. you fast all day and then at night you eat as much seeded watermelon as you can without vomiting and you are almost ensured a bowel movement.


Ok so what food is not helpful?  I want to make sure i don't over do it b/c i don't see myself doing a water fast - more reasons than i need to get into here but i just am not in the place to do one  :(
 
How about really simple foods vita-mixed - if one can not fast and does not have a juicer, would this be just as good as juicing fast?  



I left that purposely vague to avoid more arguments :)

you'll do ok. mostly what I mean is having the idea that just because you are LC or ZC and avoiding fiber and blah blah that all your intestinal stuff will correct itself due to such an awesome program. It takes a truly experimental mind...and then you should find the right things. I guess the only thing I can say is something like eggs for instance I don't really see as the greatest food on a nutritional level, but its useful for this stuff...


one of the perks with eating this way is theoretically it should be all easy to digest, so this would make some kind of blended fast of veg/fruits to not as necessary. I havn't been juicing for awhile myself (i've thought about reconsidering but thats another topic), but was speaking of around doing the colonics. I don't have a juicer either so i'd just go to a health food store or someplace like that if i was doing them.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 09, 2011, 03:18:43 am
Thanks KD - your funny  ;D

And yes watermelon is wonderful for needing to get things moving again :) 

Just a side note - it was back when i read "fiber menace" that got me really rethinking my very plant "fiberous" raw food diet,=.  Of course i would lower my fiber intake and the BM's stopped moving (dang fiber done me wrong all these years!).  Now i am looking at foods that the body can take in without having much waste product to irritate the colon, yet still move when it needs too. 

 
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 09, 2011, 07:28:10 am
Yes, KD is funny, which is one thing I enjoy about his posts.

KD, if you didn't take umbrage at my original post and I'm allowed the option of a passive response (or what I would prefer to call reasonable, fact-based discussion), then that's great and I hope that means we can move on now, because I'm not interested in debating colonics. I tried to make that clear, but apparently failed, which wouldn't be the first time. :) I did at least get something positive out of the colonics topic, which is the realization that my bowels have been sufficiently improved when I stick to a somewhat Primal, easily-digestible style of eating that I don't have a need for colonics right now anyway <<knock on wood>>. So thanks for indirectly triggering that reminder about something I have to celebrate.

Your latest assumptions were again off target, but I'm not going to waste your and my time responding to them, because that only seems to further antagonize you, which is not my objective. There's no way to prove a negative anyway. And don't worry, your remarks didn't bother me--I give you the benefit of the doubt that you have good intentions and I don't see a point in letting what someone else says about me bother me anyway, though it may frustrate me if there's something substantive I wish to discuss and assumptions or personal commentary get in the way of that. Sometimes that impatience with what I see as useless verbiage may come across as hostility when it isn't intended to be.

As for your suggestion that I try saying stuff like "you are full of yourself" or "fuck you", I consider injecting strong emotion and personal attacks into a discussion to be a distraction and a waste of time, and I also try to bear in mind that there are lots of other folks who read this forum besides you and me. Who knows, maybe some nuns and innocent little children even read this forum. :o Perhaps it will help if I explain that I prefer the reasonable styles of folks like Lex Rooker, Denise Minger, Loren Cordain, Robb Wolf, Jimmy Moore and so on (and I know that the quality of my posts is nowhere near as good as theirs', but I do admire their tone and hope that a little bit of it may rub off on me). I know their style is not everyone's forte, but I also know that I can't please everyone, nor am I interested in winning popularity contests, and so I don't try to do that and instead try to stay true to myself, which I consider more important.

If I can't get my message across without anger or insults, then it's probably not a message worth getting across. That's something my father taught me and that I try to live by (but don't always succeed--no one's perfect :D ), and it also serves as a way of avoiding wasting steam and time on issues I don't consider hugely important. If someone's life was in jeopardy and all I had to do to save them would be to say "fuck you," then I would gladly do so, but I have little use for the hot style of Internet debate, so if you want such you'll have more luck trying it with someone else more game. Some might say that I'm too old fashioned on this, but I'd consider that a compliment. ;) On a related tangent, I wonder how much swearing, cursing and insulting there is in traditional societies vs. modern societies? I suspect that there's some in both, with more in the newer societies.

Moving on to a topic you raised in your post that I AM quite interested in, I agree completely with you on "the idea that theres more than one way to think about such things" and I've enjoyed your posts to Tyler and others on this. I also find that an experimental approach works for me. I'm generally not a fan of demanding 100% adherence to things. It smacks too much of dogma to me. For example, like Lex I don't think it's necessary for everyone to eat 100% raw to obtain and maintain good health (nor am I saying that there aren't any people who do have to adhere 100% to rawness--I'm open minded on this and most subjects). I've taken heat for my opinion on that in the past, which doesn't bother me, because I know that some folks at every forum demand 100% fealty to whatever the main principles of the forum are, so I expect that, and I try to be respectful of the principles even if I don't think that everyone needs to abide by them 100% all of the time. I also agree with your related idea that sometimes doing something that is not 100% raw Paleo can even be therapeutic for some folks, at least in the short term. Like you, I've also taken heat in the past for that view.

I really do offer you congratulations on your stunning success with diet and colonics. Congrats on the improved ab definition too. My own abs have also gradually improved in definition and a bulging hernia (it wasn't quite torn yet, thank goodness, but my physician had said that it was on the verge) is almost fully healed and re-tightened, which I didn't think possible! I don't know why you seem to doubt me on the congratulations--besides, why should anything I or anyone else says keep you from being happy in your success? Regardless of whether the congratulations are honest or not (and they are honest--I may engage in good-natured blarney now and then, but I'm terrible at serious lies, so I gave up on trying to do them in my early childhood...I would make a terrible spy :D -- I'm embarrassingly bad at even white lies when it comes to serious lies :( ). You've earned the congratulations, so I hope you will revel in them! If I were you, I would wallow in them like a pig in fresh mud. Hee hee! :)

Transitioning to a RAF diet seems to cause infrequent bowel movements for just about everyone(including myself). This isn't the same thing as constipation but when coupled with such and twisted/weak bowels it can be pretty destructive...as one of the only real methods for removing toxins coming out from such an extreme shift is through the bowel. Alot of this stuff can become reabsorbed or is just plan uncomfortable of course.
Well put and thanks for making that point so brilliantly which I have tried to make in the past. Many folks seem to assume that if someone is talking about constipation then they are only talking about frequency, which is not the case for me. The only way I found I could help people understand was to refer to the useful Bristol stool chart, which is not about frequency.

Quote
one of the perks with eating this way is theoretically it should be all easy to digest
Yes, that's much of the gist behind my current experment of trying to eat foods that are easy to digest and presumably easy to poop out as well. :) I find that in my case I need to balance this with the contrary factor that some easily digested foods tend to muck up my teeth and gums. Lately it seems like it's more the raw eggs which help most, rather than the mashed avocadoes like I originally suspected.

Thanks for the tip on watermelon. I'll try to remember to try eating more of that this summer. That is easily digestible for me, so that fits in well with my current experiment.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: miles on April 09, 2011, 08:06:53 am
I know their style is not everyone's forte

Hey some nice words in that epic post Phil, but here did you use the right one? forte?

I may engage in good-natured blarney now and then, but I'm terrible at serious lies

I used to tell constant white lies, always revealing the truth shortly after, before there could be any consequence. This allowed safe honing of my lying skills and I've become very confident at it, and it can be quite useful in certain situations.. but with great power comes great responsibility ;) and I think carefully before using my powers. I've even used my skills to make people think I've given them presents that they actually bought for themselves xD
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 09, 2011, 08:17:41 am
Well the point is to be direct with what you mean. If you don't mean anything profane one just says what they mean. No single person here knows all the mysteries of this stuff, but (speaking generally) its very easy to just throw either ideas or criticisms out there from behind a keyboard. When people are pressed they tend to reveal alot of gaps in whether they've actually figured it out to the degree they thought they did - even for themselves. Does sound a bit polizei I guess...

I think the thing is..is that having respect for someone else's point of view goes both ways and its not just about non-engagement. In a way engaging actively with the others persons issue is a sign of respect. Unless one is truly passive..or absent (non-engaged)..this "i'm not arguing with you but this and this" kind of thing is usually going to come across as a sign of disrespect..particularly to acknowledging the issue of is of any worth.

Its like..

after you spent alot of time energy and consideration in what you wrote if I responded with something like "Thanks for sharing" or "good for you".

like I've said before, the incredibly capacity for people here to have normal discussions after pretty cutthroat arguments/resentments shows quite alot about this lifestyle or whatever...so yeah..no problem.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 09, 2011, 08:46:02 am
Well, KD, nothing I said was meant to be a criticism. If I'm not particularly intrigued by something that's not meant to imply that I'm criticizing it or whoever mentioned it. Of course, that doesn't stop me from briefly sharing my initial impression if it's related to an overall topic that I'm interested in, like gastrointestinal health. Perhaps it should. If I knew it would cause any bad feelings I wouldn't have commented. I can well understand the grief you've probably been given in the past re: colonics, so I can understand your thinking that I was trying to be critical. Who knows, maybe I'll even try a colonic some day, it's just not something that I'm interested in right now. I might have been more open to it when my hernia was nearing the breaking point. I'm probably a bit prejudiced against colonics given my childhood enema experience, not that it was traumatic or anything, just not my favorite pastime. LOL Maybe I should have tried to enjoy it like that ol' kook Dr. Kellogg. LOL I know that colonics are not the same thing, but they just remind me too much of it, and in my mind, whether rightly or wrongly, they're in the same broad general ballpark. Yes, I know you disagree, so be it. No worries.

Heck, I eat rotted meat and stinkfish. How in the world could I make fun of someone who did colonics? LOL I love the word stinkfish, BTW. God bless the Inuit or whoever came up with that one. :D

I try to say what I mean, except that sometimes my hands type one thing while my brain means another. I guess it's a mental handicap or maybe I'm just a kookoo-bird meself. :P Ugh, even after I reread and edit things a couple times I still miss stuff like forte. ;D

Quote
like I've said before, the incredibly capacity for people here to have normal discussions after pretty cutthroat arguments/resentments shows quite alot about this lifestyle or whatever...so yeah..no problem.
Cool. Yeah, I don't tend to take things personally and I don't really comprehend why having a different opinion on something is often viewed as a criticism or even insult. I think in part it's because I had cousins I liked and admired who loved to debate about all sorts of things with each other without ever getting really angry. Debate was seen as a pleasure rather than an incitement to fisticuffs. Maybe it's an Irish thing--sort of like the blarney, though more generally a gift with words and a love of a challenging debate--I don't know. Only problem is, I don't have nearly the gift of the blarney as my cousins do. ;D So I enjoy discussion and debate but lack the skill. I hope you can tolerate it, I don't envy your having to try to figure out my ramblings. Another handicap I have is being way too verbose (if that's the right word) with the written word. My apologies to everyone about that. Luckily I type pretty fast.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: Löwenherz on April 09, 2011, 04:41:37 pm
I've read that most and i mean most (i don't remember if it was 95% but it was close) of uncooked protein is absorbed by the body the rest is turned to ash as it moves into the colon.

That sounds good, theoretically.

But what happens with undigested animal fats? In my case, raw, hard, white suet from grain-fed animals clogged my whole gi tract. That happened during my insane zero carb experiments four years ago and I still can feel the damage. These fats damaged my small intestines and one of the bad results was fructose malabsorption which I never had before in my life. Today I still can't eat watermelon and other fruits high in fructose. Aajonus recommends butter, coconut cream and eggs, but the word suet cannot be found in his books. Obviously he knows that suet can be too hard to digest for some people. In one interview he even said that he believes that raw suet causes atherosclerosis.

Most people report perfect digestion on fruit based diets. Hmm, something to think about...

Löwenherz

Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: TylerDurden on April 09, 2011, 04:51:35 pm
Loewenherz, where does Aajonus say this online?
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: Löwenherz on April 09, 2011, 05:19:58 pm
Loewenherz, where does Aajonus say this online?

He said this in an interview round about three years ago. Unfortunately I don't have the web-adress any more.

What do you think why Aajonus doesn't talk about fatty cuts of meat in his books?

Löwenherz
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 09, 2011, 11:31:37 pm
That sounds good, theoretically.

But what happens with undigested animal fats? In my case, raw, hard, white suet from grain-fed animals clogged my whole gi tract. That happened during my insane zero carb experiments four years ago and I still can feel the damage. These fats damaged my small intestines and one of the bad results was fructose malabsorption which I never had before in my life. Today I still can't eat watermelon and other fruits high in fructose. Aajonus recommends butter, coconut cream and eggs, but the word suet cannot be found in his books. Obviously he knows that suet can be too hard to digest for some people. In one interview he even said that he believes that raw suet causes atherosclerosis.

Most people report perfect digestion on fruit based diets. Hmm, something to think about...

Löwenherz



I guess I left out the most important part which was the kinks and abdominal stuff definitely was far before any 'diet'. not sure if it was from birth or whatever...but definitely going back many years. So even the years of 'pure' diet, the extended weeks of "mono-meals" and short fasting (although I never did more than 7 days) were ever much to correct such things. Alot of people claim to have good digestion on fruit diets but then again much of what they eliminate usually still looks very much like fruit (and veg). The more 'pure' they become the less tolerant of ANY combinations. I'm not going to say there is no truth to this 'sensativity' but theres some excuses abound in that concept, particularly then when it comes to digesting animal fats for energy (not that many high fruit dieters are involved in this).

as for AV, he may indeed have a negative take on animal sourced fats. I've heard from some folks that he pushes dairy and cc. and stuff because these are more acceptable or tastier foods. I believe this is 100% not true. I think I had caught that interview. I do think alot of the bias against animal fats (and particularly suet and even some non fatty organs) is that its virtually impossible to acquire these unfrozen. he's pretty militant about that. He does offer these things through some of his suppliers and I know he recomends them to some prople. I think his other belief is that even some grass fed suppliers the animals can store 'toxins' in their fat, organs, and bone marrow. The other major reason being that his specific fats would do various positive things in the body for a modern person, but that of course an ancient person would just eat the clean animal fat for sustenance. Personally on taste I find fresh animal fat to be the tastiest, followed by suet with all the primal stuff being fairly unpalatable but helpful. cc. tastes like dentist toothpaste or something..very weird, although probably not any worse than coconut oil for me.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: alycia on April 10, 2011, 04:16:37 am
KD-
That is very encouraging you were able to reverse it  :)
yes for me the MD said i was born with it, but i am not 100% sold on that.  I think diet leading to chronic constipation led to more twist and turns than normal.

When you say "mono meals" - what did you mono meal? 
I would like to give it a try!
I have done that with fruit in the past, but am pretty sure you are referring to more primal diet? 

I have been following your suggestion about eggs and veg. juice (but i vita-mix) for my meals.  I am getting hungry a lot?  I think b/c i filled up on fiber for so long raw eggs and some veg is not holding me over  :(
If there is any suggestions on this let me know  :)

I listened to AV on oneradionetwork.com, patrick timpones website.  If anyone has not listened to those they are always available to hear, you just need to register with the site.

Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 10, 2011, 06:33:30 am
KD-
That is very encouraging you were able to reverse it  :)
yes for me the MD said i was born with it, but i am not 100% sold on that.  I think diet leading to chronic constipation led to more twist and turns than normal.

When you say "mono meals" - what did you mono meal?  
I would like to give it a try!
I have done that with fruit in the past, but am pretty sure you are referring to more primal diet?

Well, I was speaking of mono-meals negatively in that way. I was saying that I did all the 'right things' including some more extremes they recommend for such and I didn't have much of any significant improvement with my bowel health that way. There may in fact have been - I can't claim that time was all  that period was completely destructive - but if there was any clean outs and things these were accompanied by other negative that are far more complex than deficiency and have taken a pretty big toll. So I think short fruit fasts and eating pineapple and papaya and stuff like that might have a use...for the time being at least I resonate with the low sugar, low fiber model.  There are alot of benefits probably to simplifying meals and mono-eating, but sometimes these are overemphasized, and there are times where combing food is beneficial. One of the real extremes out there is a bias against mixing extra animal fat with protein..which seems to be a requirement for many people for basic success on this diet.

I have been following your suggestion about eggs and veg. juice (but i vita-mix) for my meals.  I am getting hungry a lot?  I think b/c i filled up on fiber for so long raw eggs and some veg is not holding me over  :(

I doubt it. Its not really sustainable to have a low fiber and low fruit raw diet that doesn't include a significant quantity of pure fat and animal protein. For me, I generally wouldn't blend/strain vegetables. I might have a salad in the evenings two nights a week and I guess I could blend that - but it sort of loses its entertainment value. I wouldn't mix whole veg (blended) with eggs. Sorry if that was confusing.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 11, 2011, 08:53:51 am
AV mentions bone marrow multiple times in recipes in RFLWD, so based on this and what Löwenherz reported, AV's problem is apparently not with all animal body fats, but just suet and maybe intramuscular fat. AV is also OK with raw butter and raw egg yolks:

From RFLWD: "A diet of mainly raw meat, raw eggs and dairy proved to be safe, easily digested and the most nutritious."

From WWTLWD:
> "Raw fat, like raw butter, cleanses, lubricates, protects and fuels the body easily. Whereas heated and pasteurized fat often store as cellulite or other hard-to-use or non-utilizable waxy fat."
> "a diet resplendent in raw fat is so important to excellent health. People who eat diets low in fat often develop immune deficiencies sometime in their lives."


"Stanley Bass claims that the lecithin in egg yolks appears to counteract the development of cholesterol deposition in arteries. According to Aajonus Vonderplanitz, raw fat is needed more than any other nutrient, even more than carbohydrates and protein. Raw fat not only functions as a fuel supply, but it also cleanses, lubricates and protects the body." - Susan E. Schenck, The Live Food Factor: The Comprehensive Guide to the Ultimate Diet for Body, Mind, Spirit & Planet(Get the book.)

What does AV see as the difference between suet and intramuscular fat on one hand vs. marrow, butter and eggs on the other? I know the latter are softer and AV's emphasis is on easily-digestible foods, is that they key difference in his view? Why would raw suet and intramuscular fat be more likely to cause atherosclerosis than raw marrow, raw butter and raw egg yolks, in his view?
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 11, 2011, 09:07:21 am
It may have a digestibility element but I'm pretty sure its mostly the quality/freshness/toxins thing. That these are the places (including bone marrow) where the animal would be storing environmental toxins. I know he offers these fresh (unfrozen) through particular suppliers that I guess he believes are healthier than even the standard grass-fed stuff, but it does seem like in general much of the things we might deem as the healthiest fats and organs and such are seen as rather unnecessary at best under such systems..at least on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 11, 2011, 09:20:41 am
It may have a digestibility element but I'm pretty sure its mostly the quality/freshness/toxins thing. That these are the places (including bone marrow) where the animal would be storing environmental toxins.
Yet he recommends bone marrow in RFLWD, so that's apparently not the key issue. :shrug:
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 11, 2011, 09:52:52 am
Yet he recommends bone marrow in RFLWD, so that's apparently not the key issue. :shrug:

just trust me on this phil.  :D he also recommends grinding meat but not buying pre-ground meat unless its only ground a certain way...and all other types of specific things. Theres all kinds of organs and such present in the recipes book as well but like some of the misconceptions about saying grain-fed meat is ok theres all kinds of degrees with this stuff about when and what is beneficial or bad. I don't know/remember about the books but I know in an interview he specifically mentions toxins in suet and don't think anything about digestibility. The main things I think seen as non-digestible are vegetables and egg shells. I'm pretty confident that in the past in nature he might say that people would eat the suet and other types of animal fats quite regularly.

If someone had a source of fresh unfrozen bone marrow from a particularly reliable source perhaps he would say eat as much as you want. I tend to think not and that this wouldn't be a substitute for any of the other types of fats in his mind.

anyway, personally I tend to eat plenty frozen bone marrow...I believe to good effect.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 11, 2011, 10:10:56 am
I have an excellent source of fresh, unfrozen, 100% grassfed, local raw suet from a highly regarded farm and I sometimes get suet from wild animals too. Would he consider those OK then?
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: miles on April 11, 2011, 08:43:27 pm
I love the fat that surrounds the tubes of the kidneys, the soft stuff.
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: KD on April 12, 2011, 12:31:26 am
I have an excellent source of fresh, unfrozen, 100% grassfed, local raw suet from a highly regarded farm and I sometimes get suet from wild animals too. Would he consider those OK then?

I'd really like to hear his exact thoughts on some of this stuff myself.


I already gave my best guess which is that a huge part is the frozen/availability issue, but that also these wouldn't be seen as replacements for the dairy and other fats AND that some manner of environmental toxins is stored in healthy animal's bone marrow and suet but not so much the lean meat and the grass-fed dairy.

In that Great Health Debate it was mentioned by GC that dairy was hugely impacted by ground radiation and so forth...

I don't know what the answer is. I'm sure someone has mentioned this stuff before to him and hasn't seem to change his tune about what is recommended. I know he says when no raw dairy is available to eat eggs and avocado..never any mention of getting fat from a butcher or WF. There was a member here a few years back who asked generally about the raw paleo diet and I think he just laughed and said "all that fruit..."
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: Löwenherz on April 14, 2011, 03:47:34 am
What does AV see as the difference between suet and intramuscular fat on one hand vs. marrow, butter and eggs on the other? I know the latter are softer and AV's emphasis is on easily-digestible foods, is that they key difference in his view?

Yes, it seems so.

And I think that most people with a long history of junk food or even low fat raw vegans can't digest suet and other hard animal fats. Egg yolks and butter are super easy to digest, for everyone, I guess.

Löwenherz
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: Löwenherz on April 14, 2011, 03:54:09 am
I'd really like to hear his exact thoughts on some of this stuff myself.

We should ask him directly!

Has anybody here his phone number or his personal email-adress?

BTW: I wonder if it is possible to ask him some questions without paying consultancy fees etc. (?)

Löwenherz
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: Löwenherz on April 14, 2011, 03:59:05 am
It may have a digestibility element but I'm pretty sure its mostly the quality/freshness/toxins thing. That these are the places (including bone marrow) where the animal would be storing environmental toxins. I know he offers these fresh (unfrozen) through particular suppliers that I guess he believes are healthier than even the standard grass-fed stuff, but it does seem like in general much of the things we might deem as the healthiest fats and organs and such are seen as rather unnecessary at best under such systems..at least on a regular basis.

As far as I know butter is always a fat with one of the highest concentrations of all toxins.

Regarding dairy, I believe that the body building hype in California plays a big role. No other food is as fattening as dairy, especially cream and butter. And all these heroes want to be big and bigger as fast as possible...

Löwenherz
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: klowcarb on April 15, 2011, 02:03:17 am
As far as I know butter is always a fat with one of the highest concentrations of all toxins.

Regarding dairy, I believe that the body building hype in California plays a big role. No other food is as fattening as dairy, especially cream and butter. And all these heroes want to be big and bigger as fast as possible...

Löwenherz


Well, I must be fat from all the grassfed butter I eat. Oh, wait...15% BF is not fat, is it?
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: Löwenherz on April 15, 2011, 02:09:22 am
Well, I must be fat from all the grassfed butter I eat. Oh, wait...15% BF is not fat, is it?

Well, just eat much more dairy and you will become FAT quickly.

Löwenherz
Title: Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
Post by: klowcarb on April 15, 2011, 03:46:28 am
FTR, I agree I would be fat on eating tons of cream, milk and cheese. I eat ONLY grassfed butter or ghee for dairy.