Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: Löwenherz on October 30, 2011, 06:14:09 pm
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Gabriel Cousins thinks that round about 15 - 25 grams of fructose per day should be the maximum:
20 - Fruitarianism, Fructose, and Sugar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZaK2xj__xg#ws)
Does anybody know how old Gabriel is?
Löwenherz
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Does anybody know how old Gabriel is?
I think I heard sixty-five?
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I think I heard sixty-five?
Not so bad.
He recommends a high fat diet with high pufa and mufa content! A pure disaster for me... I cannot understand how ANYONE can live on such 'toxic' fats.
Löwenherz
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i worked on the farm at the tree of life for a while, everyone was pretty much surviving off of supliments and colonics to get all the nuts out of their guts! i think his juice fasts are healing but not substantial, that much higher caloric intake is needed and his diets do lack good fats and protein! you cannot do that and not have carbs as well or you just end up being worthless and floating around imagining you are a guru.... a lot of his science is legit but his practice is too much and should only be temporary! a lot of the folks there would sneak into town to eat bagels, lol! i would sneak to get sashimi and coffee...i did gain a LOT of mental clarity while there and did recover a lot of my sanity and am forever grateful to have learned from the good and the bad
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The cheating is very telling...
I saw him in the diabetes cure for 30 days movie.
The Indian chief gave up on the Cousens program. That guy couldn't hack vegan. That guy should have done paleo diet high fat low carb instead.
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alright. one of these days Im going to make a youtube journal to track my raw foodism.
I am on a diet the has been founded on Gabriel Cousens advice, though I may have "strayed" because he isn't too clear I have made it the foundation. I practice Gong Fu and only do lightweight training with some running and some mild heavier strength training here and there.
Right now I'm not big but I'm going to do it to track my progress and keep me focused.
Right now my diet consists of high greens (at least 1-2 lbs/heads a day), sprouts (legumes,microgreens,leafy sprouts,etc.), veggies, and soaked/sprouted nuts and seeds. I also have seaweed here and there.
I really do my best to keep my ratio of omega fatty acids 4:1 to 1:1 omega 6 to 3s. The body is supposed to manufacture EPA/DHA for all the body's needs if the ratio is keep this way so no need to supplement.
Usually my meals will be kind of plain, just a bowl of greens, next to a bowl of carb rich veggies/sprouts, and another bowl of soaked/sprouted dried nuts with flaxseeds/chia seeds usually in cracker form (I have a dehydrator). I might throw in a small amount of low glycemic fruits (berries) in the bowl of greens.
I'm trying to see at which order is best due to food combining principles. So I'm experimenting.
Hopefully we'll see how it goes. I think the science Gabriel presents is sound, whether it's applicable all the time is the question. Sometimes science doesn't have all the answers especially when there are unobservable factors.
alright that's it for me today. I'll keep you guys updated.
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oh yes as for some that do high fruit and succeed, it really depends on your lifestyle. Dr. Morse is really good with his advice on using fruits although I don't agree on some points, like being totally 100% fruit. Though I agree that fruits can be healing and can be good for detoxing. So I use a mixture of the principles in the Hippocrates diet, Gabriel Cousens' Rainbow Greens.
Soon though I'll be lookin up what David Jubb and Robert Morse has to see.
The above I believe are the top people in the raw food movement when it comes to the advice.
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I think it depends on the actual fruit.
We just can't say blanket "fruit".
We have to name them one by one.
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well, exactly. Gabriel Cousens doesn't say "absolutely no fruit". He's modified the Phase chart in Rainbow Greens to include a small amount of phase 1.5 fruit in salads (that is the lowest glycemic fruits, making that berries). Even for the juices you can flavor a little with apple juice.
As for the Hippocrates Institute, a source has told me that for most people because of the unhealthy state they're in: they just can't handle more than 15% of the diet from fruit, for really unhealthy people, no more than even as low as 5%. Low glycemic fruits would be best. This is based on years of clinical research.
Gabriel Cousens and Hippocrates, even David Jubb is closest to what may be called a "raw vegan 'primitive' diet". Being that it's low-moderate carb, and higher in fats and proteins. well as for the fats, it might be a bit higher in fat.
The fact is though recent studies have shown that even for the most extreme athletes 30-50g of protein a day is enough and performance improves. Also when you cook your food you know that about 40-50% of the protein's bioavailability diminishes, protein is denatured, enzymes, and organic molecules are broken apart and some of those molecules are necessary to absorb the nutrient content of the food properly and make use of it in the body. So dare I say you might even need less? I don't do that though lol, I stay in the range of 30-50g a day. Easily obtainable with sprouts and nuts/seeds.
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without supplementation it is extremely difficult for the human body to adequately metabolize and absorb the amino acids necessary to create proper proteins and impossible for the body to obtain certain vitamins, nutrients and fats that are necessary for proper human bodily function, as well as receive adequate caloric intake without having to rely on foods that take a lot of preparation and modification to make somewhat digestible, such as seeds. if gabe cousins diets were whole his followers would not have to sustain themselves by buying and ingesting supplemental to make up for an inadequate diet
instead of spending time sprouting and dehydrating, just eat raw meat, its has more amino acids, protein, nutrients, good fats and is easily digestible...instead of flying in process tropical oils just eat local butter, make ghee...etc, instead of buying mega greens just eat wild/foraged local fresh nutrient dense greens......simple and local are the best choice
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unfortunately this is where I stray from "paleo". I only really follow it where it comes to the macronutrient ratio. But I am all for the use of technology like agriculture, sprouting, etc. I mean really, I think evolution occured for a reason so I'm ok with agriculture. Besides it brings humans together to live in society. When you soak/sprout seeds they become superior foods, there's no doubt about that. Legumes might still contain some of their indigestibility if eaten in excess. That's why only mung, adzuki and lentils are best to sprout and eat raw. I mean really we don't need that much. same with nuts/seeds. If you keep each to handful portions it's not bad. Greens (focus on the baby greens and the non-goitrogenic) /veggies/microgreens/leafy sprouts on the other hand are really good to have as much as you want. Veggies less so.
Making preparations I try not to use too many preparations, especially like using a blender. Better to grind in some way with less frictional heat. Same with juicing. I don't use too many oils. I think it's only good for special cases like medicinally or to supplement. Maybe even the once in a while gourmet dish. Same with butters or ground food.
Fermented foods are good.
As for supplements, I dont use supplements. All I use is b12 and vitamin D when I'm deficient. As for the others who used lots of supplements: that's them. I'd say it's probably because they might make use of the supplements due to their ailments."Colonics for all the high fats intake".. well the food at the Tree of Life Insitute is gourmet. I don't have problems with digestion though I have run into them when I either eat too much fats first before eating the veggies, too many spices, not enough water and don't follow proper food combining principles.
Coffee had also made it worse for me, but when I stop that my digestion goes back to normal.
IMO yea maybe there's too much fat, and/or too little carbs at the Tree of Life institute. But if one sticks to eating simple without as much preparation aside from agricultural techniques like sprouting you won't be getting in too much of the fats or carbs. Just eat the food as is. Drying might be ok. Sun drying is best.
On nov. 19 Gabriel Cousens will broadcast live another series and focus on how a person can succeed on a diet of 30-50% fat.
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.. (focus on the baby greens and the non-goitrogenic) /veggies/microgreens/leafy sprouts on the other hand are really good to have as much as you want. ..
My thyroid problems disappeared within a year of RAFD. You still get goiters? The medical doctors told me my thyroid was in such a state it never had hope of any healing, now they just say it's fine.
... Better to grind in some way ... Same with juicing. I don't use too many oils. I think it's only good for special cases like medicinally or to supplement. ... Same with butters or ground food. ..
Why not eat your meat whole? Are your teeth ok? How many oils do you use? How are you using medicinal oils? Dairy butter? Ground-nuts (peanuts and the like)? Ground meat?
... All I use is b12 and vitamin D when I'm deficient. As for the others who used lots of supplements: that's them. ..."Colonics for all the high fats intake".. well the food at the Tree of Life Insitute is gourmet. .. before eating the veggies, too many spices, not enough water and don't follow proper food combining principles.
Coffee had also made it worse for me, but when I stop that my digestion goes back to normal.
How often do you stop coffee? How much of it do you drink? How many supplements does Gabriel have? Does he have a soy sauce there? What foods do they combine at a meal? With Ann Wigmore the kitchen was very careful to only combine things that digested well together etc and prepare the food in forms that broke down very well. Does your B12 have preservatives? I could never digest gel-caps, I've wound up in emergency with that.
IMO yea maybe there's too much fat, and/or too little carbs at the Tree of Life institute. .. aside from agricultural techniques like sprouting you won't be getting in too much of the fats or carbs. Just eat the food as is. Drying might be ok. Sun drying is best.
So you're totally against eating fruit or flesh?
On nov. 19 Gabriel Cousens will broadcast live another series ...
Gabriel Cousens promotes a type of veganism that didn't help my health. Maybe someone else on the forum may tune in. No thanks from me.
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I think I heard sixty-five?
He was born in 1943, so probably 68. He looks OK, but not amazing, for that age.
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i worked on the farm at the tree of life for a while, everyone was pretty much surviving off of supliments and colonics to get all the nuts out of their guts!
LOL!
I can understand this very well, nuts are pure horror for my digestive system...
So, it seems that Cousins just belongs to the vegan illusion crew, trying all sorts of absurd dietary ideas just to avoid all animal food completely.
Somehow they are all driven by fear. To a certain degree it's comprehensable for me as I got extremely sick from grain fed meat in the past.
Löwenherz
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I really do my best to keep my ratio of omega fatty acids 4:1 to 1:1 omega 6 to 3s. The body is supposed to manufacture EPA/DHA for all the body's needs if the ratio is keep this way so no need to supplement.
But don't nuts upset this omega ration completely?
Usually my meals will be kind of plain, just a bowl of greens, next to a bowl of carb rich veggies/sprouts, and another bowl of soaked/sprouted dried nuts with flaxseeds/chia seeds usually in cracker form (I have a dehydrator). I might throw in a small amount of low glycemic fruits (berries) in the bowl of greens.
And your digestion is working fine with such meals??
Löwenherz
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Soon though I'll be lookin up what David Jubb and Robert Morse has to see.
Robert Morse is a nice guy! But obviously he is eating everything else than his recommended diet as he is extremely (!) overweight. Do you know what his own diet looks like? I guess china restaurant food. :)
Somewhen I will visit him in Florida...
Löwenherz
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But don't nuts upset this omega ration completely?
And your digestion is working fine with such meals??
Löwenherz
Yea. It just takes some planning with the meals, ie food combining.
As for the nuts and upsetting the omega 3-6 balance: it doesn't upset it if you combine it with flaxseeds/chia seeds in the right proportion.
Look if you go on nutritiondata.com and make a recipe, of lets say, how many nuts you can have in a day... and I eat a calorie restricted diet also. make a "recipe" where you will have lets say a cup of whatever nut you want. I'll say pumpkin seeds, sprouted of course but nutritiondata.com doesn't have the info on that so I use regualar 1 cup of pumpkin seeds to just 1/4 cup of flax (4 tablespoons) and the ratio of omega 3 to 6 is roughly 1:3-1:4. So it's still in good range. Of course you dont even have to have a cup of pumpkin seeds.
It's not a good recipe I know, it's not even meant to be a recipe. it's just a function I use on nutritiondata.com to see how much nuts I can have in a day combining it all together, with chia/flaxseeds so I can maintain the ratio of 1:1 to 1:4 omega 6 to 3s.
As far as I have read.. it seems the whole thign about nuts/seeds being bad is that they can contain a lot of omega 6s, and when unsprouted, lots of antinutrients/lectins/hemagluttinins/enzyme inhibitors, etc. I think even sprouting might alter the ratio of any other "poorly rationed" nutrients contained within.
So, if I can just portion my meals accordingly are nuts/seeds really that bad?
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The St0rm, you're a meat-eater like I'm Kim Kardashian.
Why don't you just give up before I ban you? Why not? Why do I always have to BAN you people? Tell me why. Why can't you have a change of heart, or just realize that you are so completely beaten? I'm the MODERATOR, for God's sakes. Even if you could out-argue me, I can still just BAN you. Even if you had useful points, it wouldn't matter, because I can just BAN you. I mean really....you know you're going to lose.
Haven't you watched me, personally ban like 40 vegan trolls? If not, let me tell you, I have, and I will again. I'm famous here for banning first and asking questions later. Others can attest to this fact. Just go away.
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don't confuse me with the others like durianrider and friends. I'm not trolling this forum nor looking for an argument.
Besides the only reason I came here was because it says vegan discussion is allowed here under the "Hot Topics" subject. And the discussion on Gabriel Cousens. Why even allow him to be brought up here? He's vegan. Him, and people like Brian Clement are about the only raw fooders who can be close to a "primitive like" diet according to macronutrient ratio. And that's why I came. Everywhere I go, it's all fruitarian, fruitarian, they dominate all the raw food forums and put down people like me who want to say 100% fruit is not the most balanced raw vegan diet.
You keep insisting that I want to make some kind of argument, but you're the only one I see here being hostile.
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don't confuse me with the others like durianrider and friends. I'm not trolling this forum nor looking for an argument.
Besides the only reason I came here was because it says vegan discussion is allowed here under the "Hot Topics" subject. And the discussion on Gabriel Cousens. Why even allow him to be brought up here? He's vegan. Him, and people like Brian Clement are about the only raw fooders who can be close to a "primitive like" diet according to macronutrient ratio. And that's why I came. Everywhere I go, it's all fruitarian, fruitarian, they dominate all the raw food forums and put down people like me who want to say 100% fruit is not the most balanced raw vegan diet.
You keep insisting that I want to make some kind of argument, but you're the only one I see here being hostile.
I find Cousens interesting because he's an actual MD who has run a raw healing center for many years, looks good for his age, and has come to the same conclusion that many here have. Specifically, he feels that carbs from fruit can cause serious, serious problems, and that too much carbs, in general, can really be problematic. Cousens has been doing the raw thing for many years. He's no trollish, ignorant newbie, like you, or DurianRider.
He's quite wrong that veganism is safe, long-term, and his supplement-heavy diet proves that. However, he's no run-and-gun, fly-by-night troll. He's quite sincere, and has some excellent points, and lots of useful health background knowledge. That makes him worth discussing, unlike you or DurianRider.
So in other words, if you want to be taken seriously, and not treated as a troll, here are some suggestions. Become an MD, run a healing center for 10 or 15 years, and then check us back then. Til then, shut up.
I mean really, dude, you're so full of fear, and so NOT full of knowledge. I and the other mods here, on the other hand, have lots more knowledge, and correspondingly less fear. You would do well to learn from us, if you are to ever become a highly-skilled dietary know-it-all that actually knows something.
Look, you've already lied to us and said you eat raw meat, when, in fact, you just admitted that you don't. That, in and of itself, is ban-worthy. I think I'm just going to go ahead and ban you, but I'll give you the chance to back down, stop posting like a troll, and just learn. Your opinions don't mean shit. Learn that, and I'll let you stay. Your choice.
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Simple because you are trying to make me look weaker than you with your harsh words while I'm being calm doesn't mean I'm "fearful". And I've never said I ate meat.
I simply took Paleo for being a simple branch term that could mean any kind of diet that reflects a primitive diet not, a specific diet.
For the 'veganism is harmful' comment, I obviously disagree. If you're talking about simple b12 deficiency that's no reason to discount veganism as b12 comes from fermentation and we've simply lost our ability to ferment it in our systems... besides that our society does not live quite as naturally like we did back in the ancient days. What if by living naturally we can get this function back?
Vitamin k2? I don't worry about that, greens have a Ton of vitamin k, and as long as your gut flora is healthy I wouldn't worry about not having enough k2. Again another product of fermentation, and enzymatic reaction.
If veganism is so wrong why even listen to a vegan such as Gabriel Cousens then?
as for the aging factor like glycation products, well as you said also, high carb diets lead to these kinds of things. Gabriel Cousens finds a way to minimize that by moderating carbs, and fats when necessary.
I'm done with this forum. if this is what is represented as a paleo diet: a person who cannot even deal with others who don't share the same opinion as you, I'd rather not be a part of this.
You didn't even try to point out any faults, and try to provide info as to why you think "I'm wrong", instead you chose to insult me. I would have actually been interested.
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Also, you mentioned the fear.. and? Oh I may have fear. Or is it simply that I just choose to be vegan, not out of fear but by simple choice? Why would buddhists or any other spiritual group not eat meat, would you say out of fear? Even if it is fear,so what then, why fear fear?
Does a paleo diet banish all fear?
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Here's my general point of view:
Stop listening to celebrity gurus and try it on yourself. If it doesn't work well ditch it.
Everyone's trying to sell you cow sh** as a supplement these days, or a book that says "this isn't allowed" and "that isn't allowed" and have 1.5625 servings of this and none of the other thing.
Our ancestors would be laughing their lean asses off if they knew what we were up to. I'm not going to be part of that crowd. I respect everyone on this forum for their individual points of view, and the fact that they are trying to be healthy, but my diet is exactly what I decide to stick down my throat, and I hope its the same way for you.
Sorry to intrude on the conversation, but I just went raw yesterday and I've got the jitters :P
Peace
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Also, you mentioned the fear.. and? Oh I may have fear. Or is it simply that I just choose to be vegan, not out of fear but by simple choice? Why would buddhists or any other spiritual group not eat meat, would you say out of fear? Even if it is fear,so what then, why fear fear?
Does a paleo diet banish all fear?
Since you are vegan, what business have you here? I am truly curious.
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I understand you being tired of the vegan forums and wanting a forum that will support your low fruit view.
Why would buddhists or any other spiritual group not eat meat, would you say out of fear?
Most of us have already been through this, some for six months, some for multiple decades. We choose raw meat now, and this forum is our place. Not all spiritual groups do not eat meat by the way.
Does a paleo diet banish all fear?
Actually it does banish fear. It doesn't hose the kidneys out. It give the nutrients that kidneys are made of. Kidneys healed? Fear gone! That's what it did for me. I was well on my way to needing dialysis. In many ancient traditional healing systems fear is considered a kidney thing. Whole raw food natural veganism didn't detox mercury or anything else. Supervised water fasting weakened them further. Raw animal fat and raw animal meat and other raw animal foods did the trick and and allowed them to be strong too, able to function and not just siphon out all my needed hydration at every chance. It delivered as promised, something I had asked before from vegan practitioners and they said could not be done. What sold me on trying raw meat in addition to the fact it is right, is that I read about pets eating highmeats and buried bones to cure 'incurable' kidney failure. A calm fearless person breathes easily, deeply, slowly and without thinking about it. Their heart beat is calm, yet strong. Mine is now, heart and breathing. I was not pleased with the quick shallowness of my breath before and occasional too quick heart beat. Now I am way calmer than any vegan, strong calm, not like the just finished eight weeks water fast calm.
Good luck Stormy. Hope to see your writing calm down and you healthy and accepting real food.
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Also, you mentioned the fear.. and? Oh I may have fear. Or is it simply that I just choose to be vegan, not out of fear but by simple choice? Why would buddhists or any other spiritual group not eat meat, would you say out of fear? Even if it is fear,so what then, why fear fear?
Does a paleo diet banish all fear?
Those people are not concerned with reproduction. Those of us who are into reproduction need extra nutrition.
I was never afraid to eat raw eggs and raw sea food. Adding raw land animals took getting used to. And yes, no fear of parasites. I've read Hulda Clark and studied under Barefoot Herbalist MH. Nothing to fear. Be armed and informed. I always have stocks of dewormers at home.
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My Last reply: I dont take supplements. Only b12 and vitamin D. Maybe at the Tree of Life a lot of people have take supplements. I figure they were only recommendations and usually for people with diseases or deficiencies at the time. It's an institute for cleansing. But I assure you, you can do it with minimal supplements like seriously only b12 if you can deal with it and get enough sun for vitamin D. The other thing he mentions is DHA, but I dont know if he can believe that if we stay within the ratio of 4:1-1:1 omega 6-3 the body will provide for it enough DHA.
RawZi: Kidneys... hm I didn't know RAFD could really help the kidneys. I dont understand why a vegan diet couldn't help the kidneys, if the fats/proteins are raw, and one takes care not to have extra carbs/proteins it's supposed to be good for the kidneys. The animal fats thing: if one just takes care for the omega 3s shouldn't one be fine? And of course sprouting/soaking nuts seeds to get rid of lectins and converting less usable and/or crude forms of fats to more easily digestible fats. Raw fats are SO important, doesn't matter where you get it from. Cholesterol is supposed to be made in the body. If for some reason a person cannot make enough because of genetics (high dependence on external sources of cholesterol/saturatd fats?) then saturated fats are good for that. Saturated fats are harder to get on a plant based diet but there are options--and only if you eat high fat. The body also makes saturated fat. If one needs saturated fats (some people actually need them more than others) you've got coconuts, macadamias, brazil nuts etc (those last ones if eaten in larger quantity).
Goodsamaritan, not all religious/spiritual peoples are like that, not all are fearful of reproduction, even the vegans.
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alright I finished editing my post.
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"Supplement ... Only b12"
We're not all the same. No vegan that I know of in my family had a bad b12 or mma test. Meat is not a vitamin, it's a way of living.
"Supposed to be"
I have experience. No amount of meat protein is too much for my kidneys. Small amounts of plant protein are bad for my kidneys. Any amount of cooked meat is not good for my kidneys. How old are you, two?
How are your ratios for all the various lipids and types of cholesterol in your blood? My medical doctor gp says mine are "Awesome!" Mine have never been high or bad, but I am more than pleased with them now. There's no reason to deprive yourself from food on a raw meat forum, if you were suffering from low cholesterol diseases and vegan for decades on good vegan foods.
Fear. I still don't love the taste of meat. I do appreciate feeling well, calm, strong and healthy though etc. I react to foods very quickly, always felt something individual with each type of food. I can tell you I was really amazed with my first bite of raw fleshfood, it felt .. like the first real food I ever had, and long and ignorantly overdue. It took most of my fear of parasites away immediately.
I don't live in Hawaii to be cracking macademias all day, and the coconuts here aren't the best. Coconut oil is highly allergenic to most of us on the forum and nuts are dangerous to eat too many of. Look at tol, they have to supplement and colonically irrigated to make up for it. There are a lot of people on earth, why argue? Herbivores are food. It's best for us and the earth to eat raw herbivores over other food. Gabriel is a doctor, and I respect doctors to be doctors, but what are you doing here St0rm?
As for sex and your veganism and our raw meat diets, try it, you may not want to go back. Almost any tribal culture we can find records prescribed extra animal food when trying to conceive. I have known many lifer vegans who craved meat while pregnant etc. Why do you keep chewing on this bone? It's done.
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Also, you mentioned the fear.. and? Oh I may have fear. Or is it simply that I just choose to be vegan, not out of fear but by simple choice? Why would buddhists or any other spiritual group not eat meat, would you say out of fear? Even if it is fear,so what then, why fear fear?
Does a paleo diet banish all fear?
it is because they are afraid of animals and the having to controll the their true animal instincts....honestly at tree of life we grew garlic but it wasnt consumed because it lowered you down to your root chakra, your most primal chakra an didnt allow you to float around in the clouds and meditate all day...it brought you down to earth, the earth mother, but to spiritual leaders they choose to see only the fearful things we have to learn with our more conscious selves to control...survival, instinct, reproduction....thet "diet" like many eating disorders is a way to take control of one of the few things we do have control over in this life, what we put into our mouths, and often people use that when they know they cannot control the other aspect of their lives but feel the need for control in some portion. it also really zonked people out to be so malnourished after years of dieting....honestly those guys were always up and down and fighting with some part of their diet and on a lot of supplements. i agree green foods and moderate amounts of low glycemic vegetables and no grains and rarely eating fruit is a great way to feel healthy, but i think animal fats and proteins should be where the majority of the calorie and nutient intake should come from........
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Hi Storm. I would like to welcome you here because you were probably attracted to this place for a good reason. Thanks for posting the video - I thought it quite interesting if not telling. I think at the end Cousens was a bit shocked about how good saturated fats could be for you - doesn't it seem that way? Didn't that make you wonder why he said saturated fats were bad? They aren't you know.
I was a vegetarian for a very long time (lots of it raw) and how I felt good was doing just what Cousens said to do - but then - he wasn't even around when I started - I just ate what made me feel the best out of what I thought was available to me. You could continue to eat how you are and keep ramping up your fats. It takes some work. Those nuts and seeds to be digestible for me need to be soaked, dehydrated and then made into butter or cream. The amount of food you will have to eat will be a good deal. It takes a lot of shopping and preparing, costs a lot of money and time, and takes planning.
But since you found your way here, why not give a try to what we have all found to be so useful and health-providing? Is there a reason that you would not want to add raw fish, eggs, dairy or meat to your diet? It really is so much simpler and more direct. I don't eat much meat like most of the folks here, but what I have added was important even if it was just to put my refrigerator, shopping, food production and eating times back into something more reasonable. Why jump through so many hoops to make a raw diet without raw animal foods work when adding some might be what makes you feel good and helps you? How will you know until you try it? That one egg yolk might just be the equivalent of 3 days of raw vegan fat producing work/eating and feed you on a level that might surprise you. Why restrict your options? We can support you in opening up you raw options and perhaps gaining even more than you suspected could be gained.
Oh - and that thing about cancer and fruit is not well-informed. There are all fruit cancer cures because many fruits have substances in them that kill cancer cells so just because cancer feeds off the fructose they take in more of the cancer-killing substances. Bananas so far in my research do not have any of those compounds. But like GS said - you can't clump all the fruits into one basket. If you ate nothing but raspberries I doubt if a tumor could survive. But then - your brain and nervous system wouldn't be all that happy - because they need the fat.
So, Storm, would you like to give it a try? It's really pretty easy to get started. Can you find some chickens that live free range so you could try eating a raw egg yolk? A tiny bit of salt, pop it in your mouth and you would be surprised and wonderful it can taste and feel.
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Cousens has a few pieces of the puzzle, 'sees more sections of the elephant' - as the new-agers like to say - than some. Unfortunately he is like many gurus in that for the average health seeker there is probably way too much info on which things are supposedly not working than real solutions which are actually doable or reflect much consideration to what has yielded health in the past. Most things are spun through a lens glumped with a whole bunch of bias already accepting that vegetarianism is the way to go, and that veganism is also therefore doable with more meticulous harvesting and bottling of vitamins and minerals.
As with what Dorothy and I believe others are saying, if someone said they were doing his program temporarily, or did not mind putting a whole lot of fuss and ingenuity making a extremely low caloric diet fit their needs, it would be less concerning to me than many other 'health' approaches. I bet smaller term stints on the diet - short of the indoctrination - would do alot of the population good.
In recent interviews like in The Great Health Debate he comes across lately as having alot of humility and willingness to accept different points of view at times. I've read Conscious Eating and from a philosophy standpoint giving what he sees as as good reasons for accepting vegetarianism is the way to go, and alot of tips on the importance of bringing consciousness to ones food choices it succeeds.
Its possible that he himself has a certain level of health and vitality, spiritually and such that is perfectly sufficient without animal foods, but I suspect very few actually would have as much 'success' (which is not beyond criticism) and access to whatever those tools are that yield whichever results that might not in the end be as great as some folks even on standard diet from a casual or even scientific analysis. Most decisions remain ideological over nutritional when it gets down to sat fats vs PUFAS or whatever so if one chooses his choices often the only way one could then argue doing so (or putting in a polluting algae plant or whatever) is through the philosophy/karma aspect.
When he starts talking about radio-isotopes in modern meat being a problem and such (possibly eating less meat than in nature..eek), my ears perk up a little, as with his analysis of fructose etc...Certainly no reason to dismiss everything he mentions based on philosophy, nor do i think anyone here disagrees.
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interestingly I also read somewhere that replacing saturated fats with PUFAS seems heart healthy.
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/HealthResearchJournals.aspx?ChunkID=487731 (http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/HealthResearchJournals.aspx?ChunkID=487731)
Im sure though that is just a generalization, as they haven't tested out all the variations of intakes of fats one can have. I think saturated fats can be healthy if raw. Even animal meat,but it's probably like comparing apples to oranges in terms of health effects. If you can do a raw vegan diet correctly it can be done. I just don't agree with how some people say that ALL PUFAS are bad (and veganism is bad, etc.) when all I've read about them are things about the omega 3/6 ratio, their relation to how unsoaked/unsprouted nuts contain lectins and such. Macronutrient ratios, lack of exercise, nutritional deficiencies based on the toxicity of an ignorant modern way of life and all the 'non-foods' in cooked vegan 'foods'. All of these factors can be modified to make an optimal fat intake from these plant foods if one could live in a community that supported this way of life, and the people in it all worked together to make it happen. Not much research has been done on raw food diets.
Even sprouting has been found to reduce lectins/antinutritional factors up to 100% depending on how long one sprouts,the nutrients given, etc. Sure some or in fact most people might still have sensitivities , but that's genetic. Our human ancestry was almost all omnivorous. It could take some work to make sure the next generation doesn't have these sensitivities if one works at it. I think sprouting is a God sent.
I forget to mention the Hippocrates Institute. My latest inspiration - all the people associated with the Hippocrates Institute. I now consider it essential to become a sproutarian. It does take work, but communities can live this way, self sustainably.
Robert Morse is another I've become recently interested in and he shows how fruits are not all that bad. Its just when it is consumed in excess,and/or when it's taking place of other essential nutrients. It's a bit extreme. Though most of the fruitarians that are all about 100% fruit and nothing else it seems like they don't want to accept that humanity has evolved now to live in communities. We no longer have to live as nomads, living in seasons that fruit may not even be available at the times. We now have to learn to live self sustainably. I kind of see the same mindset in meat eaters and even raw meat eaters. Of course we may have a genetic predisposition but that doesn't mean it can't be worked around.
David Jubb is another leader in the raw food movement, and I'm very impressed in a lot of the things he says.
So I'm not saying raw meat eating is wrong. I'm sure one can live healthily. Though I simply choose to not want to kill animals to eat. I would only do so to survive if I can't do anything else. otherwise,if it's not necessary, why do it?
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where do you get your greens from? are they local? are they from organic farms in california? if so they are contributing to the death of many animals, a lot of fish, birds, a lot of it due to the pesticides that are allowable by organic regulations, a lot of that produce is also mono cropped as well which further deteriorates habitat....just sayin, you aint goin to win unless you are growing it yourself, etc...even the extra energy it takes to run your dehydrator, it is all a translation of energy, the death of a chicken to feed a family...etc...
i choose meat because it is the easiest to process, i can get it from local people who use their livestock to improve grasslands, who have little homesteads or farms where the poo goes back into the soil and nourishes the the veggies i buy off of them, knowing that the money i give them goes back into making a healthy environment for more happy animals to live a good life, and that my consumption of the flesh and energy from the animal goes back into the same
there is no coconut fad grave yard filled with fermaldahyde ridden shells behind my house(re tree of life)
i agree that sprouting and greens are amazingly nutritious and healthful, i think its wise to take the responsibility to do it yourself....you can grow seeds, you can eat whole foods like winter squash and eat those seeds, you can grow greens year round help wild greens(ie weeds) grow and flourish...no ego or obsession or religion tied to it, just the basic connection that you are a part of the natural cycle
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Ah Storm, it seems like you are in the wrong place. You have no plans on eating raw animal foods or even a vaguely healthy varied vegan diet. You sound like a fundamentalist ethical vegan looking to try to convince people here that eating nothing but sprouts would be good for them. That's not going to happen. Sprouts can be nice, but nothing but sprouts won't even come close to what even Cousens is talking about above. I have and do sprout to add to my greens but would never consider living on only sprouts. Living so out of touch with nature and yourself as to force yourself to eat nothing but sprouts because of an idea is so out of balance that it's almost inconceivable. There is a wide array of raw foods to choose from and many people have and are telling you here that eating raw animal foods transformed them for the better and healed their weaknesses and sicknessses. Being tunnel-visioned usually does not end up in healthy living. I wish you luck on your sproutarian diet and creating a whole community of such an unsustainable lifestyle and hope you don't get sick, but if and when you do get sick, come back and maybe we will be able to help you. What you are talking about is the furthest thing possible from a paleo diet imaginable.
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I never said only sprouts.
Sproutarian is a word I just recently started using because sprouting is a lifestyle. To have multiple ongoing trays/bags of sprouts to have and eat everyday.
Ok, maybe sproutarian isn't a good word. It's just a word I picked up.
Though I still consider sprouts to be very important.
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Ah Storm, it seems like you are in the wrong place. You have no plans on eating raw animal foods or even a vaguely healthy varied vegan diet. You sound like a fundamentalist ethical vegan looking to try to convince people here that eating nothing but sprouts would be good for them. That's not going to happen. Sprouts can be nice, but nothing but sprouts won't even come close to what even Cousens is talking about above. I have and do sprout to add to my greens but would never consider living on only sprouts. Living so out of touch with nature and yourself as to force yourself to eat nothing but sprouts because of an idea is so out of balance that it's almost inconceivable. There is a wide array of raw foods to choose from and many people have and are telling you here that eating raw animal foods transformed them for the better and healed their weaknesses and sicknessses. Being tunnel-visioned usually does not end up in healthy living. I wish you luck on your sproutarian diet and creating a whole community of such an unsustainable lifestyle and hope you don't get sick, but if and when you do get sick, come back and maybe we will be able to help you. What you are talking about is the furthest thing possible from a paleo diet imaginable.
I couldn't have said it better. Well done.
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I never said only sprouts.
Sproutarian is a word I just recently started using because sprouting is a lifestyle. To have multiple ongoing trays/bags of sprouts to have and eat everyday.
Ok, maybe sproutarian isn't a good word. It's just a word I picked up.
Though I still consider sprouts to be very important.
You don't have the guts of an herbivore like a cow or gorilla to be able to pull off a diet very high in sprouts. No human does. Sprouts are not to be eaten in large amounts. They produce a very quick taste change, even when you're very hungry. That taste change is your body saying "no thanks, this food is not what I need."
Get a clue, man.
Seriously, I think I might just ban you. You're like a lot of us were, about 4-8 years in the past. W e had to learn the HARD way, (some harder than others, ROFL), and I feel like you probably will too. So why not go away from this forum, learn through experience, and then come back in 5 or 10 years? Certainly you refuse to take advantage of our collected knowledge from years of dietary experimentation, so why not just create your own knowledge-through-experimenting?
Surely you realize that most of us long-timers have WAY more experience than you, and that convincing us to go BACK to veganism is a losing proposition. It'd be like trying to convince us that we were wrong, Santa Claus IS real. It's not happening.
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St0rm I have been sproutarian. It was amazing. I had energy, flexibility etc. It pissed the oncologist/hematologist off big time! It did not make me completely well. I did not feel completely well. It also brought new health discomforts. It served a great purpose though. Best to you on this step, sproutarian or not.
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Zi, how long were you a sproutarian for? Sounds like you were really sick before trying it. What diet did you come from when you went sproutarian? My body wouldn't go for it. Whenever I try to eat 100% of any one food for any length of time my body balks.
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I came from whole cooked food no extras vegan Dorothy most of the transitions. I never did sproutarian more than a year at a time. I probably ate about five percent (fresh) fruit, so I don't mean 100% sprout. Not real sweet fruit, but yes very ripe. In recipes of blended five to seven inch 'sprouts'. Yes, I was majorly sick and falling down a steep hill fast if I wasn't actively very careful in timing and environment of every little step of every recipe.
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I realize this forum is not what I suspected. The paleo diet does not include a vegan approach. So I'm leaving for good. I still believe in an all raw vegan approach, though I don't discredit the use of animal products as being helpful for some. Sometimes it might be what the body needs for healing, etc. I just don't see it as a long term thing.
I may just be on another level. Just because it's rare to see a raw vegan who practices a good diet does not mean it's not possible. There are many ways/approaches to raw veganism, obviously other than what's popular.
Regards
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Storm, I wish you the best. I did a healthy vegan diet for a very long time and was very healthy, but this is a group of people that explores all aspects of traditional paleo diets - of which there have been no vegan cultures up to this point, so it's not the kind of place where you can come and ask people why eat meat if not necessary. The answer is, why NOT eat raw animal foods if they help and heal, make everything easy and are more in balance with nature and sustainable and better for our mother earth? Raw animal foods is much more than just mammal meats btw. Even if I go back to a 100% raw vegan diet one day because I feel it is what is best for me or it is a time where I can and want to jump through the hoops I have to on such a diet, I will feel that I learned a tremendous amount here if I ever end up in a different situation and especially for my loved ones. There are very few people that can do what is necessary to stay healthy long-term on a raw vegan diet and what I have noticed is that many disregard obvious negatives that they are experiencing calling it detox or the like.
Please, if you get too thin or weak or get negative symptomology don't try to talk yourself into a diet that might not work for you because of an idea. You are doing a big experiment with yourself. It is not a better way - just different. There is a condescension that comes from many raw vegans regarding ethics and superiority that I have found to be not only distasteful, but wholly unfounded. Buying into that could do harm, especially over time if you or your circumstances change. The ancient cultures that ate raw paleo were not inferior in any way. Their ways can be learned from. You will not know how you might feel if you have never tried it, so you cannot judge it. Keep this in mind years or decades from now just in case. You have options.
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Be well TheSt0rm!
Sorry we weren't a good fit or vice versa. Like D said, we've been not only doing raw paleo, but also another end of the spectrum of raw diet forums, so vegan is not on the menu here. Maybe that will change, it's up to the moderators/long timers and what's best for the forum to grow and present a raw paleo approach. And I'm sure paleo people still raw did not eat their whole diet vegan and the bulk of it sprouts. It would have taken all day every day and birds and slugs and rodents and perhaps iguanas would have gotten into their non-windows and eaten their plantings.
I did raw sproutarian and vegan no animals consistently over decades. The human body, or many human bodies cannot convert some of the sprout based nutrients no matter how well prepared to eat it. Life can be longer and more importantly more calm and strengthening without forcing things. In time maybe you will see this, maybe you won't. Hope to see you back if you do. Nice meeting you (in this thread).
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I was 95% raw vegan for a couple years. I always ate some animal products on the side (cooked, as raw animal wasn't in my lexicon at the time), because I sensed I needed them. But, as for the raw veganism, I went back and forth between the Cousens thing of eating lots of nuts and vegetables and a little bit of low-glycemic fruit- and the high-fruit style. I gotta say, I liked the fruit better. At least fruit is delicious. I still eat tons of fruit, but I don't eat tons of nuts or (any) salad. I sort of had to force myself to dip broccoli in almond butter and pretend it was enjoyable. I ended up eating a ton of avocados. Now I can't look at a friggin avocado.
So I went from low-fruit raw vegan to straight fruitarian back to low-sweet raw vegan then to finally having an epiphany that I needed to eat animal products and *instant and overwhelming benefit* as soon as I started to just eat unpasteurized cheese. I didn't eat any fruit for a month or two at that point, and lived off cooked meat stews and raw cheese, pretty much... but I started to feel really heavy. Then over the summer I found fruit again, and started balancing lots of fruit with cooked animal products. It wasn't until I found this forum that I woke up to realizing I could and should eat meat raw. I just started, but I'm committed to it.
Anyway, the upshot is that I found the Gabriel Cousens diet particularly unenlightened, personally. I think a high-fruit diet can be good as a cleansing thing for a short period, but, at least for me, the vegetables-and-nuts thing was the worst of the whole bunch.
I do feel so fortunate to be able to have tried all these diets and now to to have the knowledge (not to mention $) to have a tray full of persimmons, a giant jackfruit, and lots of raw ground beef and veal steak and butter in my kitchen at the moment which I'm looking forward to devouring!
Now... how to tell the world?
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I came from whole cooked food no extras vegan Dorothy most of the transitions. I never did sproutarian more than a year at a time. I probably ate about five percent (fresh) fruit, so I don't mean 100% sprout. Not real sweet fruit, but yes very ripe. In recipes of blended five to seven inch 'sprouts'. Yes, I was majorly sick and falling down a steep hill fast if I wasn't actively very careful in timing and environment of every little step of every recipe.
Did you eat fats Zi? Eating all those sprouts sounds like torture to me. You could do that a whole year at a time?! You must have had a very strong constitution.
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Balancing-act - shhhhhhhh. Don't tell the world or there won't be enough and I'll have to start eating bugs! ;)
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Did you eat fats Zi? Eating all those sprouts sounds like torture to me. You could do that a whole year at a time?! You must have had a very strong constitution.
As Sproutarian I ate sprouts of various stages of development, I prepared them in various ways as well, and it was grain sprouts, legume sprouts, nut sprouts, oilseed sprouts and and and some seaweed. Maybe I have a very strong constitution, maybe you're right. People have looked in my eyes and told me I have many decades to go in this life, and I mean when I was sick, and I always believed they were right. I did suspect I may die a number of times especially a number of years ago, but overall I knew I HAD to live, doesn't matter what I want, but what should be. I'm sure there are some others who were Sproutarian longer, Viktoras etc. Everything has good and bad. There was lots of energy, pretty nice energy. I don't know if it's my constitution is strong, or rather the way my body deals with things helps me live longer.
The nut and seed sprouts the way I prepared them got free form fatty acids, so there's the fats.
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Ah - soaked/sprouted nuts and seeds for me are still good sources of fat. Thanks for the explanation. Did you eat vegetables though - or just the 5% fruit. All those sprouts (even though of such a wide variety) still seems monochromatic and limited. Did you get bored?
What was your first movement away from that diet? How did you try eating raw animal foods at first? That must have been a big jump and you did it a long time ago when before there was a forum or a place to get support or learn about it.
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Yes, a timy bit, not every day. Broccoli, cauliflower, celery, mushrooms, beets, scallion, cabbage, lettuce everything organic. Wasn't bored at all of the food, I was feeling better than ever before in many ways, so I think that made up for "lack of variety".
Lack of support and such was my first movement away.
My first raw animal food I put in my mouth was butter. About to do that and knowing it was only my first step to raw meat I felt like I was jumping off one of the highest cliffs to a bottomless pit with only faith in the healthier attributes to the diet.
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What made you first think that you could eat meat raw Zi? Butter I always assumed we could eat raw (if I could ever have gotten it) and milk products in general because until fairly recently and still on farms people did that all the time and I saw Rocky eating raw eggs (so it had to be ok LOL) - but raw meat for such a very long time has been taboo in our country. What made you realize that you could eat it?
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Because my carefully made seed yogurt was the first protein that put muscle on me and raw meat is similar, but i was afraid of parasites.
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I tell my patients to avoid excess fruit. Clearly, flora (flowers leading to fruit) are terribly rare in the wild and while fruit offers excellent nutritional value it is at the cost of fatty liver. Excess fructose causes this just as excess alcohol does. So, How much is too much? Generally, as a physician, I recommend less than 30 grams a day. It's harder than you think with all the crap these days, but usually you can eat 2-3 servings of fruit a day and be within this as long as everything else is more veggie/protein. The fructose goes straight to the liver for storage. Or, if you eat too much, it spills out of the tank as triglycerides. Bad LDLs anyone? O0
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I tell my patients to avoid excess fruit. Clearly, flora (flowers leading to fruit) are terribly rare in the wild and while fruit offers excellent nutritional value it is at the cost of fatty liver. Excess fructose causes this just as excess alcohol does. So, How much is too much? Generally, as a physician, I recommend less than 30 grams a day. It's harder than you think with all the crap these days, but usually you can eat 2-3 servings of fruit a day and be within this as long as everything else is more veggie/protein. The fructose goes straight to the liver for storage. Or, if you eat too much, it spills out of the tank as triglycerides. Bad LDLs anyone? O0
Do we have an MD amongst us?
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Because my carefully made seed yogurt was the first protein that put muscle on me and raw meat is similar, but i was afraid of parasites.
What got you over that fear Zi?
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Reason to live.
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I'm confused - do you mean that without meat you thought you would die so tried it even though you were frightened of parasites, or that you thought it might give you a reason to live?
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do you mean that without meat you thought you would die so tried it
I don't choose fear. I was afraid of parasites. I chose to eat meat, even if it meant parasites. It was a lot more than dying at stake. Dying I can handle. I apologize for the confusion. Live was not the only important word there. Try reason.
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So, How much is too much? Generally, as a physician, I recommend less than 30 grams a day. It's harder than you think with all the crap these days, but usually you can eat 2-3 servings of fruit a day and be within this as long as everything else is more veggie/protein.
That corresponds to my personal experience with fruits.
On fruitarian forums like www.vegsource.com/talk/raw (http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw) you can find many reports about high triglycerides. If I eat a lot of fruit my blood tests show also high triglycerides, but most doctors here in Germany aren't interested in this blood parameter. It seems that most people (on typical high carb diets) have high triglycerides today..
Löwenherz
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Lowen - my Mom had astronomical cholesterol levels for about 60 years, but it wasn't until her triglycerides went up that her 2 holistic physicians got concerned - and it was then that she had her heart attack. I'm no doctor - but I trusted those two.
Maybe the new MD in our group would be so kind as to chime in here on triglyceride levels vs. cholesterol levels and their meaning and significance?
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It seems that most people have high triglycerides today..
I don't. I don't know what it was like when I was eating similar to Cousens. It had to have been low because my body fat was for all physiological purposes non-existant and my tsc was extremely low. My cholesterol is good now, but my triglycerides are low.
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My cholesterol is good now, but my triglycerides are low.
I guess you follow a low carb paleo diet? Or do you eat much fruit?
Löwenherz
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Or do you eat much fruit?
Too much sugar always tasted grotesque to me. I try to keep it high fat low fruit now. I have done close to zero carb (raw). That was beyond great :). I've been finding it hard to do that now. I hope to again soon. So yeah, I was eating some fruit than I feel is ideal when last tested and levels wonderful, and it may be better if I ate almost zcr again, but I'm in no rush or competition. I just appreciate not being sick, which cooked etc makes me.