Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: east147 on October 17, 2008, 04:52:36 am
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Are there any interviews (MP3 or Videos) with Aajonus Vonderplanitz? I read he was due for a few interviews with Patrick Timpone on One Radio Network http://www.oneradionetwork.com/content/view/122/127/ (http://www.oneradionetwork.com/content/view/122/127/) but Aajonus had to cancel for some reason. I am really in the middle on RAW meat so would love to connect with Aajonus.Will he be on soon?
Pete
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I already posted a thread on Patrick's website forum:
http://www.oneradionetwork.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,232/func,view/catid,37/id,50/#50
When is Aajonus Vonderplanitz going to be on?
Help me out guys... Patrick's being bombarded by raw vegan and raw fruitarian viewpoints... he must feature raw animal foods eating... He must!
We want Aajonus, we want Aajonus....
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Patrick Timpone just answered my question on http://www.oneradionetwork.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,232/func,view/catid,37/id,50/#119
When is Aajonus Vonderplanitz going to be on?
I was excited when someone announced in our forum www.rawpaleoforum.com that Aajonus Vonderplanitz was going to be on your radio show.
I saw your teaser.
Then it was pulled, it didn't push through.
What happened?
When are you rescheduling his appearance?
I hoped to hear him on your show. I'm both a Barefoot fan and an Aajonus fan!
Patrick answered:
yes, it was interesting. Two times running it just did not happen. First time the phone where he was staying did not ring unbeknown to both parties, in the guest house where he was staying.
And, the rescheduled interview, he was not at he number I called as agreed. So, I am just hanging on this for a bit, and see where the energy takes it.
I think he will be an interesting chat, especially with a resurgence in interest in animal protein I feel is in our future.
p
Somebody please call Aajonus and make this happen!
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You could e-mail Aajonus at optimal@earthlink.net and ask him about it. In the process, you might even suggest him appearing on Youtube, perhaps!
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Aajonus Vonderplanitz is on One Radio Network on Monday the 9th February 2009 so thats tomorrow!!!
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Aajonus Vonderplanitz is on One Radio Network on Monday the 9th February 2009 so thats tomorrow!!!
That's great please post the link when it comes.
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People are able to phone Aajonus live on this number:-
http://www.oneradionetwork.com/
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Oops, I just checked the site and it seems Patrick Timpone needs to renew his domain at Godaddy's.
Something always happens when Aajonus is on.
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It's on now!!
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I'm listening to it now. I wish he was the ultimate diet guru like he says he is because his diet tastes better than mine. He certainly sounds reasonable most of the time.
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I'm listening to him now. First time I heard his voice. Aajonus is one of the best.
He says he has a dvd coming up in a month.
Aajonus is of the opinion that taking of wheatgrass juice is wrong. Hulda Clark is also against wheatgrass juice. I agree as well wheatgrass juice tastes vile!
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He didn't want to talk about the veggie juice issue, and for sure is ignorant around the dairy issue. He recommended me to go with fish and chicken to get my lymph nodes to calm down. I also wonder if he's right about the fruit diet causing my spleen to get enlarged...
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Wow that was you that asked that question? Ya he did skirt the raw paleo thing, basically just took a little swipe saying we think we should eat a lot of fruit. Most raw paleos don't even think that, so that's a straw man type argument.
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I think he's frustrated because a lot of raw paleo people are raw paleo because they can't handle dairy. He just doesn't want to accept that though.
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Aside from dairy not working on me in the months I've experimented (many people too), Aajonus is on the spot on many things. I will experiment with dairy again when I feel my digestion has strengthened.
I'm waiting for the mp3 file to appear. I only caught the end of the show.
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Hey please let 'us' know how to catch the file. thanks
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He didn't want to talk about the veggie juice issue, and for sure is ignorant around the dairy issue. He recommended me to go with fish and chicken to get my lymph nodes to calm down. I also wonder if he's right about the fruit diet causing my spleen to get enlarged...
I'm not sure this is relevant, but Dr Howell pointed out that humans and animals raised on largely-cooked diets suffer an enlarged pancreas but other organs, including the brain, actually shrink in size.
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Wow that was you that asked that question? Ya he did skirt the raw paleo thing, basically just took a little swipe saying we think we should eat a lot of fruit. Most raw paleos don't even think that, so that's a straw man type argument.
Aajonus doesn't know anything about rawpalaeos so probably assumes that we all follow a 100% raw version of Loren Cordain's 65% lean-meat/35% fruit/veg diet. Quite wrong, of course.
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let milk come to room temperature before you drink it
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let milk come to room temperature before you drink it
That's a common "Aajonism" and doesn't really work for people with food-intolerances towards dairy. Might work for those who can tolerate dairy but have a slight upset stomach and can't handle cold foods.
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"Aajonism" lool.
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You know, except for him seeming to deny the existence of non-sweet fruit eating raw paleolithic dieters I agree with everything he has to say. I would like to have seen him actually do the experiments he talks about having done. If he was a little more open to other ideas and was more transparent in his own I would take what he says a lot more seriously. I've noticed bloating on green juice and milk as well. In fact I'm pretty sure the whole time I was on raw vegan eating a lot of greens and green juices my stomach was bloated. And milk does a similar thing, but it's more discomfort than visible bloating.
I just don't get his reasoning sometimes is all. He says we need dairy for this and that, and I used to think butter was necessary for fat until I found out there is fat on the animal that people hardly ever eat. Why isn't he telling people to eat the fat of the animal? He pushes meat, a little bit of organs (he should push those more right?) and never mentions fat at all. I think in one recipe he says to use meat trimmings to make a meat sauce with some other ingredients. I mean, ya if you're gonna remove all the fat on your meat and never buy whole fat to eat from the animal then you would need another source, and dairy would be a good choice considering the plant based options out there. And he pushes the green juice when he should know that organs contain all the stuff you want in the green juice with none of the anti-nutrients. And you don't need a juicer for it, and it costs less, and when you eat it you get micro nutrients AND macro nutrients, while when you drink juice you get hardly any calories it's mostly water and then vitamins and minerals and anti-nutrients.
I used to be very passionate about getting a lab where I could test things like what he supposedly did, but gave up on it because graduate school from what I've seen and heard is not about projects like that these days. I would probably have to move far away, slave all day in the lab and help teach, get paid in peanuts, and then not even be able to do the projects I want. So we'll never know whether what he says about this or that enzyme in this or that food doing this or that, because you know mainstream science will never look into it.
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To give Aajonus credit where it is due, he is a long time self experimentor, author and healer. It would be cool if we could live in with him for a couple of weeks and actually dig into his successful combination of foods. I'm sure his dairy is different from the dairy I get. And maybe his green juices are different from what I would get, though I never liked green juicing. Maybe the meats he gets are different from what I get. Whatever combination of eating he is doing works for him and probably a good number of others. It's pretty hard for me to replicate exactly what he is doing since I live so far away in a strange land and a different climate from his.
Aajonus is a great teacher and I am glad I stumbled onto his interviews, his written works, bought his books. If it weren't for his clear explanation of how raw animal food and raw fat was really great for humans, I may have been stuck with just ocean fish sashimi and egg yolks (Wai Diet).
But just like the previous teacher I had who suggested fruitarian, Barefoot Herbalist MH, I could not replicate exactly his suggested diet. Maybe my body wasn't ready or maybe I didn't have the same set of foods they had that worked for them.
I have accepted an idea that maybe we are supposed to find what works for us, with what is available in our area. We learn from the various teachers, their methods, their experience, their suggestions.
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Hey please let 'us' know how to catch the file. thanks
hey,
go to the website
http://www.oneradionetwork.com
then register
then in the top right hand corner search for "vonderplanitz" and click Primal Diet - Raw Everything!
Then on that page it will have a link where you can download the file or "podcast" to your computer to listen.
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Would love to listen to Aajonus every month on One Radio Network. Would Aajonus do this?
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Are there any interviews (MP3 or Videos) with Aajonus Vonderplanitz? I read he was due for a few interviews with Patrick Timpone on One Radio Network http://www.oneradionetwork.com/content/view/122/127/ (http://www.oneradionetwork.com/content/view/122/127/) but Aajonus had to cancel for some reason. I am really in the middle on RAW meat so would love to connect with Aajonus.Will he be on soon?
Pete
He was on Superhuman radio a couple of times recently.
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He was on Superhuman radio a couple of times recently.
Please always provide a link if possible on this board whenever you come across anything remotely to do with rawpalaeo. Every little helps.
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http://superhumanradio.com/rss/2009/SHR_Show_286.mp3 (http://superhumanradio.com/rss/2009/SHR_Show_286.mp3)
http://superhumanradio.com/rss/2009/SHR_Show_298.mp3 (http://superhumanradio.com/rss/2009/SHR_Show_298.mp3)
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Thanks for the links. I listened to the first SuperHumanRadio show. The best thing about the interview was Vonderplanitz's tip of the hat to Native Americans for helping to show him the way to healthy eating and about the ostracization of them as "savages" for eating some raw meats.
Some of his most intriguing claims were regarding eggs and urine-drinking vegetarians. He said that avidin from eggs doesn't block absorption of biotin in the human body--only in the laboratory. He said he eats up to 50 eggs a day, sometimes with nothing else, without getting biotin deficiency. He claimed that the reason that many vegetarians in India drink their own urine (which I've actually seen advocated by a prominent Indian vegetarian on 60 Minutes) is because they can't get enough protein from their diets (because the protein in the plant foods they eat is not very bioavailable). I've also heard from a radio talk show host and a controversial book author that some Indian vegetarians eat dried dung, perhaps for similar reasons, though I don't know how true that is. The Mongols allegedly drank horse-dung tea along with fresh horse blood as a survival ration to avoid malnutrition and starvation when not enough meat or milk was available. I do know that primates that eat plant-heavy diets do eat their own fresh dung to obtain B12 and other nutrients lacking in their diets, whereas I have not heard of the carnivorous primates (tarsiers) doing that. If people knew that the best natural vegetarianism involves eating one's own feces, how many would still do it?
I was disappointed with the emphasis on protein and raw milk and ignoring of animal fats like marrow and suet, which I believe are likely the most important foods of all. It wasn't suprising when it turned out that many of the advertisers were selling whey protein powders.
Interestingly, Vonderplanitz seems to say in this interview that he got multiple myeloma again while he was eating raw dairy and raw nuts, that he couldn't gain weight or strength from them, that the raw dairy and nuts "didn't do it for me," and that it wasn't until he ate raw meat that he recovered. Somehow he still doesn't make the connection that raw dairy is not healthy.
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The idea that anyone would have the time to eat as much as 50 raw eggs a day is ridiculous.
As regards the raw dairy, Aajonus' main reason for recommending them is that raw dairy is the easiest raw animal food that people can get used to, at first. At least, he admits that neither raw eggs nor raw dairy are any good for "rebuilding", unlike raw meats, which is at least a start.
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You're right, Tyler. His admitting that raw dairy is less optimal than raw meats is a start. But it is promotion of raw dairy by people like him and Atkins that have led to the suffering of so many low carbers who continue to eat dairy foods, such as you did for a time, yes?
I'm curious. Why does Cordain get ripped to shreds for advocating lean cooked meats (which I agree that he is wrong about--and I suffered for years myself from eating only somewhat more fat than Cordain recommended--I find I do better on Lex Rooker and Phinney type levels of nondairy fat), but Vonderplanitz seems to get off easy while advocating dairy protein, ignoring suet and marrow, and appearing on a show that advertises processed whey protein powders? Is it because Cordain is a scientist, so we hold him to higher standards? Yet Vonderplanitz is introduced as a "doctor" by the interviewer, and Aajonus didn't seem to mind that, so he is using scientific credentials to promote his views as well. I think Vonderplanitz's doctorate is in nutrition (correct me if I'm wrong), so shouldn't he know better as well? I'm not advocating that anyone trash Vonderplanitz, just thinking that perhaps people are better off treating ALL gurus in the low carb field with polite skepticism (on which Lex has written eloquently), neither trashing them completely for some inevitable human errors, nor embracing everything they say without researching it and testing it for yourself.
The idea that anyone would have the time to eat as much as 50 raw eggs a day is ridiculous.
That's an interesting challenge. Some Instinctos have claimed doing that. If no one here can attest to that I may try it myself some day for kicks, and to test Vonderplanitz's credibility. I suspect that it is possible, though not easy. He's much bigger than I am, so I figure 30 eggs might be a good test for me.
BTW, eating raw eggs seems to piss people off both here and at the ZC forum more than most things. Any idea why that is?
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YES.... Patrick Timpone is talking with Aajonus this Thursday October 15th. I think they are live at 10am and if you have any questions I think you email Patrick now or contact Patrick on his FaceBook account. This is his email address: patrick@oneradionetwork.com
http://www.oneradionetwork.com (http://www.oneradionetwork.com)
http://www.facebook.com/OneRadioNetwork (http://www.facebook.com/OneRadioNetwork)
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^
From the interview these points seem to be more interesting:
1. Lubrication Formula for building muscle (Blend : butter, egg, honey, lemon). The principle seems to be "lots of fat". I wonder if it works better than "gomad".
2. He says gray hair is caused by free radical minerals (especially Aluminum). But it seems he also has gray hair...
"eating lots of raspberries with coconut cream and a little butter helps get read of Aluminum"
Anybody tried them?
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Aajonus has a different perspective on which cooked foods are the most unhealthy than what we usually see here. Aajonus said that fried high carbohydrate foods have the highest levels of acrylamides and the host then said...
Host: "So it's even more dangerous frying or cooking the carbs than it is the meat?"
Aajonus: "Correct."
From:
Aajonus Vonderplanitz, PhD: Taking Raw To a Whole Other Level
Thursday October 15th
http://www.oneradionetwork2.com/mp3/health/diet/vonderplanitz_aajonus_raw_food_meat_primal_diet_oct_15_09_one.mp3
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Aajonus has a different perspective on which cooked foods are the most unhealthy than what we usually see here.
haha i.e. what Tyler says ;)
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Well, I've always thought Aajonus was a bit of a charlatan(all those spurious references to heavy-metal-poisoning /aluminium, and now truly odd claims that cooked carbs are worse than cooked meats).
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Blood proteins drop after 5 hours... Your red cells become catabolistic... You consume from two to four tbsp of your blood every night...
Aajonus told me yesterday "to sip raw milk and eat lots of raw eggs to recover from MONO MEAL DIET..."
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Well, I've always thought Aajonus was a bit of a charlatan(all those spurious references to heavy-metal-poisoning /aluminium, and now truly odd claims that cooked carbs are worse than cooked meats).
I should have added that I don't mean to imply that I think Aajonus is 100% right on this and you 100% wrong. I'm undecided and just thought it interesting that Aajonus had pretty much the opposite view, so that there is no unanimity on the subject of which cooked foods are the most unhealthy.
My own experience has been that cooked carbs do me much more harm than cooked meats, but your opposite experience suggests that there is a great amount of variability here. It's such a new field of inquiry that there is much for humanity to learn.
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Well, Aajonus is in a minority(of one, re gurus?), and besides most of the raw food movement gurus being raw vegan-leaning mainly (as well as the mainstream scientific establishment) are of the view that cooked animal fats are worse than cooked carbs, given the prevailing evidence. It's a pity that Aajonus didn't mention any of the other heat-created toxins. If he'd been reasonably competent, he could have mentioned AGEs, HCAs, NSAs and PAHs as well.Those are far more related to cooked-meats toxin-wise, whereas acrylamide is only relevant re cooked carbs. I wonder if Aajonus simply didn't mention those other toxins because he hasn't researched them. Or perhaps he simply made a common false premise that many cooked low carbers make:- they often compare the consumption of cooked, grassfed meats with the consumption of heavily refined cooked carbs, which is not a valid comparison. Now, if they were to compare a well-cooked McDonald's hamburger with similiarly processed, low-quality cooked refined carbs that would be fine, but they never do.That's the thing, most of those refined carbs are not just cooked but processed in several extra ways that meat usually isn't, so that confuses the issue.
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Well, Aajonus is in a minority(of one, re gurus?), and besides most of the raw food movement gurus being raw vegan-leaning mainly (as well as the mainstream scientific establishment) are of the view that cooked animal fats are worse than cooked carbs, given the prevailing evidence. It's a pity that Aajonus didn't mention any of the other heat-created toxins. If he'd been reasonably competent, he could have mentioned AGEs, HCAs, NSAs and PAHs as well.
He did actually. You should listen to the interview, because it was pretty good. A bit more in-depth than the last one, I think.
Aajonus may be the only guru who thinks this way re: the worst cooked foods, but there's a whole ZC forum of people larger than this one whose experience matches what he said, as does my own. You are correct, though, in that there are vegetarians and vegans who claim to have had your sort of experience and most of the research interpretations have sided with your view. I'm not looking to debate it, just sharing the info for anyone interested that might otherwise go unmentioned here if I didn't.
I think you agree with Aajonus about high meat, so you obviously don't dismiss everything he says, and I don't think he's necessarily wrong about cooked carbs just because some of his views are absurd (and some of the stuff he said in this interview did seem absurd to me). When I first heard about high meats I dismissed it and said I would never try it, but the more I learned about it, the more reasonable it seemed. Now I'm planning on trying it some day (and to a limited degree I have, by eating some raw meat that was slightly off, without any ill effects). High meats reinforced for me the lesson that something that seems absurd on the surface may not be absurd at all. After all, you do realize that most people would think of you and me as kooks for even considering eating high meats, right? Heck, I've already been called a kook just for eating raw meats.
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^
From the interview these points seem to be more interesting:
1. Lubrication Formula for building muscle (Blend : butter, egg, honey, lemon). The principle seems to be "lots of fat". I wonder if it works better than "gomad".
2. He says gray hair is caused by free radical minerals (especially Aluminum). But it seems he also has gray hair...
"eating lots of raspberries with coconut cream and a little butter helps get read of Aluminum"
Anybody tried them?
I had a few gray hairs. They went away after eating a lot of butter.
After living mostly on moisturizing formula (same recipe as lubricating formula but it's the name when a woman uses it) for about five weeks already my muscles looked and felt better than ever.
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Aajonus FAN here.
Aajonus just gave the BEST radio interview ever!
Patrick had to do a 2 hour show for Aajonus.
Sure I can't take dairy nor those green juices, but Aajonus scores well in the other departments in my book.
http://www.oneradionetwork.com/health_-_podcasts/diet_and_nutrition/aajonus_vonderplanitz_-_we_want_to_live_-_primal_diet_-living_without_disease_-_october_15th._200910151329/
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He did actually. You should listen to the interview, because it was pretty good. A bit more in-depth than the last one, I think.
Maybe he mentioned it at the end of the interview. I was so bored by the discussion that I stopped 10 minutes from the end.
I think you agree with Aajonus about high meat, so you obviously don't dismiss everything he says, and I don't think he's necessarily wrong about cooked carbs just because some of his views are absurd (and some of the stuff he said in this interview did seem absurd to me). When I first heard about high meats I dismissed it and said I would never try it, but the more I learned about it, the more reasonable it seemed. Now I'm planning on trying it some day (and to a limited degree I have, by eating some raw meat that was slightly off, without any ill effects). High meats reinforced for me the lesson that something that seems absurd on the surface may not be absurd at all. After all, you do realize that most people would think of you and me as kooks for even considering eating high meats, right? Heck, I've already been called a kook just for eating raw meats.
Just because he gets 1 or 2 things right doesn't mean he gets anything else right. So far, other than the raw/high-meat aspect, he seems to get everything else wrong re dairy/green juices/cooked carbs. What pains me, most though, is his emphasis on eating faeces and urine. He admittedly mentions wild animals doing so, but many are herbivores which need special bacteria to predigest certain plant-matter or have inefficient digestive systems like rabbits who need to eat their faeces one more time in order to properly digest their food. And high-meat is so chock-full of bacteria that I don't think it's necessary for Aajonus to claim cures re cancer from eating faeces. As someone once said, Aajonus is a really bad symbol for going raw, his claims re cures for multiple, unrelated diseases sound too good to be true etc. I will accept, though, that even I was convinced that I would never dare try high-meat when I first contemplated going rawpalaeo.
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Also Aajonus said that after 5 hours of not eating the we start loosing red blood cells and he only sleeps like 4 hours a day. This is the first time I heard such a thing... and it does not make sense. I followed the warrior diet (eating once a day) and felt really good in that period. I read somewhere that gene expression should start at 40 hours mark or longer.
I also wonder how come the Inuit do not live for like 500 years if they eat this supper high meat food...
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I also wonder how come the Inuit do not live for like 500 years if they eat this supper high meat food...
Air pollution.
Their dwelling places were lit with seal oil lamps which quickly blackened the snow walls; lungs would have been likewise blackened.
And it's high fat, not high meat. We are talking of pre-contact with self-destructive Europeans.
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Just because he gets 1 or 2 things right doesn't mean he gets anything else right.
Agreed, and the corrollary to that is just because he gets some things badly wrong doesn't mean he gets everything wrong, though it does ring the warning alarm on my skept-o-meter.
So far, other than the raw/high-meat aspect, he seems to get everything else wrong re dairy/green juices/cooked carbs.
You at least also agree with him that cooked carbs are bad, you just disagree on the severity. His comments about cooked carbs also happen to match my experience, so they ring true from my perspective and perhaps we could say that his warnings about the severity of cooked carb badness apply to some people, like me, and apparently him, but not to all people, such as you. So perhaps he is partially correct on that one.
*** WARNING: potentially revolting discussion below ***
What pains me, most though, is his emphasis on eating faeces and urine. He admittedly mentions wild animals doing so, but many are herbivores which need special bacteria to predigest certain plant-matter or have inefficient digestive systems like rabbits who need to eat their faeces one more time in order to properly digest their food. And high-meat is so chock-full of bacteria that I don't think it's necessary for Aajonus to claim cures re cancer from eating faeces. As someone once said, Aajonus is a really bad symbol for going raw, his claims re cures for multiple, unrelated diseases sound too good to be true etc. I will accept, though, that even I was convinced that I would never dare try high-meat when I first contemplated going rawpalaeo.
Interesting, Aajonus didn't discuss coprophagia in either of his last two radio interviews or in any of the written interviews of him that I read, so I wasn't aware of this aspect of his program. I agree with you on this and thanks for the heads up on it. AFAIK, in the wild coprophagia has only been observed among animals that eat plant-heavy diets deficient in certain nutrients like B12. I know of no wild carnivores or plentiful-meat-eating omnivores that practice coprophagia, so if Aajonus is advocating that for primal dieters it makes no sense to me either. The only advocates and practitioners of urine drinking or coprophagia I have encountered before were people who consumed plenty of plant foods (such as old-fashioned Hindu-Indian vegetarians and agrarian folk remedy advocates).
Again, I'm trying to avoid criticizing Aajonus too much until I've learned more about his views, but I do agree that he has not appeared to me to be an optimal representative of raw eating. I feel that his appearance on The Doctors, where he was put up as a laughing stock, was another example where he did not represent it well (although that could be attributed in large part to editing made to make him appear stranger--which is a common TV show tactic to boost ratings), and some of his more bizarre remarks, provided largely without evidence or explanation, in each of his interviews also troubled me. If he is advocating coprophagia, then that strengthens my feeling on this.
Then again, I originally thought high-meat was bizarre, so I'm not going to rule out the possibility that I might learn something else of value from him. Learning about high meat alone was of sufficient value to convince me to see if there's anything else I can glean from him. Aajonus seems to be an example of how even the strangest eccentrics can sometimes teach us some things and sometimes seem to have creative insights that the conformists in society miss. However, if he advocates coprophagia and the TV folks get wind of it, that will probably spell the end of any potential he might have for people taking him seriously on a national level.
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His comments about cooked carbs also happen to match my experience, so they ring true from my perspective and perhaps we could say that his warnings about the severity of cooked carb badness apply to some people, like me, and apparently him, but not to all people, such as you. So perhaps he is partially correct on that one.
Or, rather more likely, given anecdotal evidence, he is mostly wrong on this point, re cooked carbs.
Interesting, Aajonus didn't discuss coprophagia in either of his last two radio interviews or in any of the written interviews of him that I read, so I wasn't aware of this aspect of his program. I agree with you on this and thanks for the heads up on it. AFAIK, in the wild coprophagia has only been observed among animals that eat plant-heavy diets deficient in certain nutrients like B12. I know of no wild carnivores or plentiful-meat-eating omnivores that practice coprophagia, so if Aajonus is advocating that for primal dieters it makes no sense to me either. The only advocates and practitioners of urine drinking or coprophagia I have encountered before were people who consumed plenty of plant foods (such as old-fashioned Hindu-Indian vegetarians and agrarian folk remedy advocates).
Not true. Coprophagia has been observed in carnivores, such as dogs,and is present in wolves etc.
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Aajonus seems to be an example of how even the strangest eccentrics can sometimes teach us some things and sometimes seem to have creative insights that the conformists in society miss. However, if he advocates coprophagia and the TV folks get wind of it, that will probably spell the end of any potential he might have for people taking him seriously on a national level.
Eating some kind of shit (horse or camel)as a cure has been successfully practiced in North Africa, copied from the natives by the ww2 Afrika Korps to cure dysentery, who being German made it into a pill or capsule. It worked. still does.
This could be what we are now cutely calling "friendly bacteria", and good shit is a better source than yogurt, and the price is right.
It sounds like AV was suckered by those who use words better than he.
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had a few gray hairs. They went away after eating a lot of butter.
...
How much is a lot of butter to you? I had periods where I'd eat as much as half a pound of butter a day and still have those few white hairs (which stand out because the rest is black).
Air pollution.
Their dwelling places were lit with seal oil lamps which quickly blackened the snow walls; lungs would have been likewise blackened.
Interesting point about air pollution, I didn't know that. Still, there would have been other tribes that were eating healthy in parts of the world where they didnt smoke themselves, right?
Maybe Weston Price discovered some.
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How much is a lot of butter to you? I had periods where I'd eat as much as half a pound of butter a day and still have those few white hairs (which stand out because the rest is black).
Raw local cultured grass grazed butter was the base of each meal. I ate three meals per day, no snacks, drank no water nor milk ever during that time. I was better hydrated than ever.
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*** WARNING: potentially revolting discussion below ***
Tyler wrote:Not true. Coprophagia has been observed in carnivores, such as dogs,and is present in wolves etc.
Yes, I meant that REGULAR coprophagia had not been witnessed among wild carnivores, but in looking back I see that I didn't specify "regular." Sorry for the confusion. Domestic dog coprophagia is not particularly relevant to wild animal behavior, given the deficient non-wild diet they are fed, so I'll assume you mean wild dogs. My understanding of wild dog and wolf coprophagia is that it is occasional and only practiced when food is scarce or deficient or for other temporary reasons, such as medicinal ones perhaps, whereas regular coprophagia only occurs among heavy plant eaters which are deficient in certain nutrients like B12. In other words, I was agreeing with you where you stated that "many [coprophagic animals] are herbivores [not carnivores] which need special bacteria to predigest certain plant-matter or have inefficient digestive systems like rabbits who need to eat their faeces one more time in order to properly digest their food." Did I misunderstand you? My knowledge of the subject is rather limited--are you aware of any observational evidence of regular coprophagia among well-fed carnivores?
Eating some kind of shit (horse or camel)as a cure has been successfully practiced in North Africa, copied from the natives by the ww2 Afrika Korps to cure dysentery, who being German made it into a pill or capsule. It worked. still does.
This could be what we are now cutely calling "friendly bacteria", and good shit is a better source than yogurt, and the price is right.
Well this topic is sure to scare some people away, but I generally don't shy from controversy, so what the heck. Interesting story. I hadn't heard that one, but I did hear that the Mongol armies would drink horse dung tea (along with horse blood) when meat was scarce. Not because they thought it was a healthy staple food or necessary regular detoxicant, but to avoid starvation.
Your and Tyler's comments also reminded me that Bear Grisham drank fluid squeezed from fresh elephant dung as a cure for dysentary, which is apparently also practiced in parts of Africa. In light of that I suppose that advocacy of coprophagia by Aajonus might not seem so outlandish for treating lethal diseases like cancer, but I hope to heck that Tyler is right and high meat is sufficient treatment, because I hate to think of anyone having to use a copraphagia cure. On the other hand, the more I think about it these points and my own remembrances from nature/survival shows past, the less strange Aajonus' views on this topic seem, but I'd rather not think about it much. :D
After this topic will we have any members left? :o :D
It sounds like AV was suckered by those who use words better than he.
Perhaps he saw it as "any publicity is good publicity." However, I think he'll have to practice his sound bites and try not to seem quite so eccentric if he's going to convince more people via TV.
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After this topic will we have any members left?
This is raw paleo.
We are ALL eccentric.
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LOL, good point GS! I've been called worse than eccentric because of RPD myself already. I get the vague sense from his TV appearances and radio interviews that I would actually like Aajonus in person. I'll try not to be too hard on him and stick to the facts. I don't mean to use ad hominem against him or anything like that.
My social graces are admittedly not the best, so I think I sometimes come across as more harsh than I mean to be.
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*** WARNING: potentially revolting discussion below ***
Tyler wrote:Yes, I meant that REGULAR coprophagia had not been witnessed among wild carnivores, but in looking back I see that I didn't specify "regular." Sorry for the confusion. Domestic dog coprophagia is not particularly relevant to wild animal behavior, given the deficient non-wild diet they are fed, so I'll assume you mean wild dogs. My understanding of wild dog and wolf coprophagia is that it is occasional and only practiced when food is scarce or deficient or for other temporary reasons, such as medicinal ones perhaps, whereas regular coprophagia only occurs among heavy plant eaters which are deficient in certain nutrients like B12. In other words, I was agreeing with you where you stated that "many [coprophagic animals] are herbivores [not carnivores] which need special bacteria to predigest certain plant-matter or have inefficient digestive systems like rabbits who need to eat their faeces one more time in order to properly digest their food." Did I misunderstand you? My knowledge of the subject is rather limited--are you aware of any observational evidence of regular coprophagia among well-fed carnivores?
Coprophagia is a standard, regular practice among carnivores in the wild, it's mentioned as a routine habit in general entries for "carnivore". There are various explanations offered:- 1) that carnivores use the faeces to mask their scent or because of extreme famine or 2):-" Many carnivores also eat herbivore dung, presumably to obtain essential nutrients that they could not otherwise obtain, since their dentition and digestive system do not permit efficient processing of vegetable matter." Oh, and a third explanation is that predator-carnivores like to sample the faeces of prey in order to determine the diet of the latter(and therefore where the prey are likely to stay around) and to determine more precisely the scent/taste of their prey. Another obvious suggestion has been put forward by many owners of raw-fed dogs, that carnivores need lots of bacteria - while this concerned the liking of their dogs for high-meat, the same argument could be used for faeces.Of course, while coprophagia is a regular practice among carnivores, it may not be as essential to life as it is for herbivores.
Well this topic is sure to scare some people away, but I generally don't shy from controversy, so what the heck. Interesting story. I hadn't heard that one, but I did hear that the Mongol armies would drink horse dung tea (along with horse blood) when meat was scarce. Not because they thought it was a healthy staple food or necessary regular detoxicant, but to avoid starvation.
Your and Tyler's comments also reminded me that Bear Grisham drank fluid squeezed from fresh elephant dung as a cure for dysentary, which is apparently also practiced in parts of Africa. In light of that I suppose that advocacy of coprophagia by Aajonus might not seem so outlandish for treating lethal diseases like cancer, but I hope to heck that Tyler is right and high meat is sufficient treatment, because I hate to think of anyone having to use a copraphagia cure. On the other hand, the more I think about it these points and my own remembrances from nature/survival shows past, the less strange Aajonus' views on this topic seem, but I'd rather not think about it much. :D
In the Middle-Ages, there were similiar oddball claims such as cures involving drinking vomit, snot etc. While I have a lot of respect for herbal medicine, I don't believe they got it always right, and indeed got it wrong a lot of the time re bloodletting and other "cures".
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Scott Wheeler mentions in his blog the "worm farm" and he seems really big on the primal diet.
Maybe the carnivores in the wild practice coprophagia because they can not prepare their own "high meat".
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Coprophagia is a standard, regular practice among carnivores in the wild, it's mentioned as a routine habit in general entries for "carnivore". There are various explanations offered:- 1) that carnivores use the faeces to mask their scent or because of extreme famine or 2):-" Many carnivores also eat herbivore dung, presumably to obtain essential nutrients that they could not otherwise obtain, since their dentition and digestive system do not permit efficient processing of vegetable matter."
The "extreme famine" reason, which I cited myself, doesn't explain "a standard, regular practice." The scent-masking, nutrient-deficiency, prey location, and bacterial supplementation reasons would explain a regular practice. However, the nutrient deficiency explanation (the need to eat partially processed vegetable matter to obtain unspecified nutrients or fiber) doesn't make sense, because wolves discard the partially-digested vegetable matter contents of rumens:
"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and pull out and consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen (weighing about 60 kg or 132 pounds for a moose) is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (Wolves: behavior, ecology, and conservation, by L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani, 2003)
Wolves will even laboriously nibble away at a frozen stomach to avoid ingesting its contents: "If the stomach of a large prey animal freezes before wolves find the carcass (e.g., if it died from starvation, accident, or earlier wounding by wolves), the wolves commonly consumed the entire stomach wall by laborious nibbling with their incisors." (Mech and Boitani, 2003)
"while coprophagia is a regular practice among carnivores, it may not be as essential to life as it is for herbivores."
It's definitely less essential to survival for carnivores, but I can't find any research indicating that it's even a normal, regular practice for wild carnivores who are eating a diet with sufficient nutrients and calories. There is tons of info on the Web re: coprophagia among wild herbivores and domesticated dogs (who eat deficient diets containing foods they are not designed to eat, like grains and soy), but precious little of it re: wild carnivores. If you don't believe me, do a little googling yourself. Here are some examples:
Coprophagia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia#Coprophagia_in_animals
"Capybara, rabbits, hamsters and other related species do not have a complex ruminant digestive system. Instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft fecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not eaten.
Young elephants, pandas, koalas, and hippos eat the feces of their mother to obtain the bacteria required to properly digest vegetation found on the savanna and in the jungle. When they are born, their intestines do not contain these bacteria (they are completely sterile). Without them, they would be unable to obtain any nutritional value from plants.
Gorillas eat their own feces and the feces of other gorillas. Similar behavior has also been observed among Chimpanzees. Such behavior may serve to improve absorption of vitamins or of nutritive elements made available from the re-ingestion of seeds. ...."
Whereas when domesticated dogs engage in regular copraphagia, it seems to be viewed as an aberrant behavior, possibly "due to various medical problems." ("Owner Documentation of Coprophagia in the Canine," http://web.archive.org/web/20070427142031/http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/pets/_archive/study.htm)
One common factor cited as reasons for regular coprophagia in both wild herbivores and domesticated dogs is diets deficient in certain nutrients that are plentiful and biovailable in meats, such as folate and B12 (cobalamin) (Handbook of behavior problems of the dog and cat, by Gary M. Landsberg; "COPROPHAGIA AND FEEDING," http://www.petngarden.com/dogs/dogs12.php). Is this just coincidence?
"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries." (Vitamin B12, http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html)
In the Middle-Ages, there were similiar oddball claims such as cures involving drinking vomit, snot etc. While I have a lot of respect for herbal medicine, I don't believe they got it always right, and indeed got it wrong a lot of the time re bloodletting and other "cures".
Yes, I think nearly everyone gets some things right and others wrong. I no of no one who gets everything right, including myself.
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"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and pull out and consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen (weighing about 60 kg or 132 pounds for a moose) is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (Wolves: behavior, ecology, and conservation, by L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani, 2003)
Wolves will even laboriously nibble away at a frozen stomach to avoid ingesting its contents: "If the stomach of a large prey animal freezes before wolves find the carcass (e.g., if it died from starvation, accident, or earlier wounding by wolves), the wolves commonly consumed the entire stomach wall by laborious nibbling with their incisors." (Mech and Boitani, 2003)
It's definitely less essential to survival for carnivores, but I can't find any research indicating that it's even a normal, regular practice for wild carnivores who are eating a diet with sufficient nutrients and calories. There is tons of info on the Web re: coprophagia among wild herbivores and domesticated dogs (who eat deficient diets containing foods they are not designed to eat, like grains and soy), but precious little of it re: wild carnivores. If you don't believe me, do a little googling yourself. Here are some examples:
Coprophagia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia#Coprophagia_in_animals
"Capybara, rabbits, hamsters and other related species do not have a complex ruminant digestive system. Instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft fecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not eaten.
Young elephants, pandas, koalas, and hippos eat the feces of their mother to obtain the bacteria required to properly digest vegetation found on the savanna and in the jungle. When they are born, their intestines do not contain these bacteria (they are completely sterile). Without them, they would be unable to obtain any nutritional value from plants.
Gorillas eat their own feces and the feces of other gorillas. Similar behavior has also been observed among Chimpanzees. Such behavior may serve to improve absorption of vitamins or of nutritive elements made available from the re-ingestion of seeds. ...."
Whereas when domesticated dogs engage in regular copraphagia, it seems to be viewed as an aberrant behavior, possibly "due to various medical problems." ("Owner Documentation of Coprophagia in the Canine," http://web.archive.org/web/20070427142031/http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/pets/_archive/study.htm)
One common factor cited as reasons for regular coprophagia in both wild herbivores and domesticated dogs is diets deficient in certain nutrients that are plentiful and biovailable in meats, such as folate and B12 (cobalamin) (Handbook of behavior problems of the dog and cat, by Gary M. Landsberg; "COPROPHAGIA AND FEEDING," http://www.petngarden.com/dogs/dogs12.php).
I've never eaten "COPRO", nor has aajonus advised anyone I know to, nor have they tried it. I first read about it years ago in a book provided at a vegan restaurant, while I was vegan. In aajonus' book it says he prescribed it to a very sick woman who wouldn't try high meat. Eating it got her well.
I started a discussion on it on GI2MR; because a well respected member of these forums threw the idea out there on forum there that aajonus is decredited because as part of primal diet you have to eat poop. One of the vegans responded to my discussion on like the 26 page of it that his daddy showed him more or less that definitely carnivores eat stomach contents, so that I should too or become vegan again.
I had a dog who ate commercial non-organic dog food. After getting very sick, we switched to a nearly vegan fresh diet, which worked so well. The dog did eat poo sometimes. Now I understand. Thank you.
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I've never eaten "COPRO", nor has aajonus advised anyone I know to, nor have they tried it. I first read about it years ago in a book provided at a vegan restaurant, while I was vegan.
Yes, I've heard a Hindi-Indian vegan recommend coprophagia, and another one recommend drinking urine, in the past, but I can't find any sources on vegan-recommended coprophagia now. It apparently was more common among vegans before manufactured supplements were invented.
In aajonus' book it says he prescribed it to a very sick woman who wouldn't try high meat. Eating it got her well.
Aha! Thanks for the additional information. Only recommending it when the patient refused high meats makes it much less strange than simply recommending coprophagia in general. But, my word, I wonder why she chose feces over high meat? Still, if I were Aajonus I think I would have tried to find an alternative, such as eating bacteria-rich soil, perhaps, or maybe extracting the bacteria from the high meat, the way they do with probiotic supplements taken from fermented dairy products? Even recommending coprophagia to a single patient will earn him extreme ridicule from the medical community and general populace.
that definitely carnivores eat stomach contents, so that I should too or become vegan again.
Yes, my sources (such as Wolves: behavior, ecology, and conservation, by L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani, 2003) indicate that's a vegan/vegetarian fallacy, among many. Some vegans actually claim that they don't need B12 supplements because they get B12 from the animal feces in the soil on the vegetables they eat.
I had a dog who ate commercial non-organic dog food. After getting very sick, we switched to a nearly vegan fresh diet, which worked so well. The dog did eat poo sometimes. Now I understand. Thank you. [/color][/b][/size]
Your welcome. The nutrient-deficiency explanation for chronic coprophagia among domestic dogs does make the most sense to me, though further study is needed, as with most dietary subjects (because diet gets studied so little as compared to drugs and surgery, for both animals and humans).
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The nutrient-deficiency explanation for chronic coprophagia among domestic dogs does make the most sense to me, though further study is needed, as with most dietary subjects (because diet gets studied so little as compared to drugs and surgery, for both animals and humans).
Cats never eat "copro", that I have seen, but I've seen a LOT of dogs that have. I will grant that cats are probably better able to get nutrition from small animals that they catch around the house, like mice, etc., but I'm not sure that totally explains the difference. Where I live, dogs are often known to kill and eat rabbits, groundhogs, and other small animals. I live in a very rural area, and such animals are very common. These are the same dogs that will eat every scrap of poo of any kind that they can find, whether human poo, cat poo, etc. I would guess that these dogs are getting a fairly similar amount of nutrition from fresh kills as our local cat population. :)
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The "extreme famine" reason, which I cited myself, doesn't explain "a standard, regular practice." The scent-masking, nutrient-deficiency, prey location, and bacterial supplementation reasons would explain a regular practice. However, the nutrient deficiency explanation (the need to eat partially processed vegetable matter to obtain unspecified nutrients or fiber) doesn't make sense, because wolves discard the partially-digested vegetable matter contents of rumens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia#Coprophagia_in_animals
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The problem with the above study is that it's been pointed out that, in some cases, where the prey is too small for such finicky separating of contents, the wolf does indeed eat the stomach-contents:-
http://rawdogfood.com.au/carnivores.html
It's also suggested that wolves would eat everything, even stomach-contents, when facing famine(though the latter would not count as "regular", of course). Another point is that the faeces consisting of plant-matter would be far more predigested than plant-matter in the stomach, thus making it actually more likely for wolves to eat faeces than the stomach-contents of herbivores.One has to also bear in mind that no animal is a strict carnivore or strict herbivore:- wolves eat berries, cattle inadvertently eat insects found on grasses etc.:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmuYTb6ynbg
Whereas when domesticated dogs engage in regular copraphagia, it seems to be viewed as an aberrant behavior, possibly "due to various medical problems." ("Owner Documentation of Coprophagia in the Canine," http://web.archive.org/web/20070427142031/http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/pets/_archive/study.htm)
I'm suspicious of the usual claim that coprophagia among domesticated dogs is aberrant behaviour as it's viewed from the human POV which is against the idea. I would be more interested in the accounts of raw-feeding dog-owners as to whether their dogs eat faeces or not. They certainly go in for high-meat, judging from reports.
"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries." (Vitamin B12, http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html)
That said, I have come across some claims that the body is able to survive for years/decades without vitamin b12(referring to modern vegan diets minus faeces) and that the body may be able to compensate in some way for the deficiency. I think it's been suggested that b12 deficiency is more of an issue for children growing up raw vegan.
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He didn't want to talk about the veggie juice issue, and for sure is ignorant around the dairy issue. He recommended me to go with fish and chicken to get my lymph nodes to calm down. I also wonder if he's right about the fruit diet causing my spleen to get enlarged...
Aajonus seems right - http://drbass.com/aboutfruit.html
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the accounts of raw-feeding dog-owners as to whether their dogs eat faeces or not
My dog is on raw real food. She eats rabbit feces whenever it's available. She does not eat the feces of cats or dogs - she smells it and then urinates on it. She has never eaten her own feces.
I always thought that, in pet dogs, this was a sign of malnourishment.
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Aajonus seems right - http://drbass.com/aboutfruit.html
Thank you very much for this wonderful article!
Made me think about experimenting with water fasts.
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My dog is on raw real food. She eats rabbit feces whenever it's available. She does not eat the feces of cats or dogs - she smells it and then urinates on it. She has never eaten her own feces.
I always thought that, in pet dogs, this was a sign of malnourishment.
My childhood dog also did not eat his own feces, nor has any dog I've walked done any more than sniff dog feces. That's one reason I'm skeptical of the claim that a dog regularly eating its own feces and/or those of other dogs is "normal" in the sense of being natural and an indicator of good health. We fed our dog better than most dogs in the town--never giving it kibble, because it made him bloat--so that may be part of the reason why he didn't engage in coprophagia.
As for eating rabbit feces, perhaps that could be related to getting to know a prey animal, as Tyler suggested, rather than necessarily due to a dietary deficiency. I don't know.
The science articles, TV shows, etc. I've seen that covered primate copraphagia indicate that herbivorous and frugivorous primates regularly eat their own feces during seasons in which fauna foods like insects are scarce, so as to get folate, B12 and other nutrients. (one science TV program even showed chimps defecating in their hands and eating their own feces immediately after they came out). Whereas I've never heard of the carnivorous tarsier primates engaging in coprophagia.
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As for Tyler's posted video showing wolves eating berries. I already knew that wild canines like wolves and coyotes eat berries and to me that is not evidence of regular coprophagia of their feces, but of berry eating. Wolves are facultative carnivores, not obligate carnivores, so it should be no surprise to anyone that they sometimes eat plant foods.
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Here's some first-hand observation of a wolf emptying stomach contents even when extremely hungry (though not starving), along with some other important points that match what I have also found elsewhere in my research:
Primal Diet Primal Mind Sally Fallon Interview
Voice of America
Conducted by Nora Gedgaudas, author of Primal Body-Primal Mind
6/3/09
SF: [W]e know from the early explorers that the fat was what [Native Americans] mostly wanted and they often threw away the muscle meats. If the animal was too lean they threw it away. They never ate [only] lean meat, they always ate it with the fat."
NG: ... I've actually watched it happen ... I spent a whole summer of my life living with wild wolves, less than 500 miles from the North Pole. ... I was able to watch firsthand what the wolves ate and what they didn't eat, and the organ meats were the first things to go [to be eaten] when they made a kill and what was left over--the muscle meat--was something that was ... left behind for the more subordinate animals that were just sort of picking up scraps behind the rest of the pack and just as an interesting aside, ... you hear a lot of vegans talk about when a predator makes a kill the first thing they eat is the stomach, because that's where all the water-rich vegetables are.... We actually observed the exact opposite. In fact we used ... the stomach with a wolf that was a subordinate animal that didn't have much to eat that particular summer and we tossed the stomach her way and consistently she just urinated on it and walked away, and towards the summer when she got really, really, really desperate there was one day we tossed out a stomach of an animal and she gingerly tore it open with her teeth and then shook it as hard as she could until all the stuff inside was shaken out of there, and then she basically ate the tripe.
....
SF: What they normally eat first is the liver. ....
NG: Yup.
SF: Now the Native Americans and the traditional peoples, they would eat the marrow...which was mostly fat and mostly saturated fat.
....
SF: And you can eat it raw, sort of like eating butter. They ate the brains of course which are high in fat and cholesterol and they ate the liver and then they would render or save as much fat as possible from the animal, and then they would take a little bit of the lean meat and smoke it or dry it and they ate that with the fat.
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Here's another confirmational source with an interesting additional note on the natural preservation of wolves' food by freezing...
Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation By L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani (Hardcover - Nov 23, 2003), p. 123:
"Freezing of carcasses provides a food bank that reduces loss to other scavengers and preserves food for wolves. ...
Many wolves feeding centrally at a kill usually results in squabbles, and wolves with little social standing must wait their turn, especially if food is short or prey is small. High-ranking wolves may complete their initial feeding on a fresh kill in an hour or less (Murie 1944; Mech 1970). ....
Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and pull out and consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen (weighing about 60 kg or 132 pounds for a moose) is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed and their contents further strewn about the kill site."
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(... they would eat the marrow...which was mostly fat and mostly saturated fat.
That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%
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That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%
can you tell me what's MUFA!! i give my sone bone marrow with the muscle meat when i don't have any other fats are not available. Is it okay? -\
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can you tell me what's MUFA!! i give my sone bone marrow with the muscle meat when i don't have any other fats are not available. Is it okay? -\
Thank you for asking about what's safe for your toddler.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC60864/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC60864/)
I wouldn't want to get arterial sclerosis, or is the link only pertaining to cooked? Another reason to consider cutting out all carbs too. I have been eating (raw) marrow, and didn't feel well one day last week. I've eaten other food too though, but suspected this batch of marrow I ate. So I went for bloodwork. If it shows anything hinting at AS, I'll tell you. One of my relatives had an amputation due to that disease.
http://diabetes.about.com/b/2008/01/13/mufa-rich-diet-can-reduce-belly-fat.htm (http://diabetes.about.com/b/2008/01/13/mufa-rich-diet-can-reduce-belly-fat.htm)
These oils make my throat burn. I avoid them. Marrow doesn't feel bad at all on my throat though. Basically, I like it as a fat, better than suet even.
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That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%
Exactly. That's one reason among many why I stopped believing in the vast majority of claims that Sally Fallon, the WAPF and Weston-Price have made about food.
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I wouldn't want to get arterial sclerosis, or is the link only pertaining to cooked? -
It's only an issue for cooked food as arteriosclerosis is linked heavily with heat-created toxins such as advanced glycation end products/advanced lipoxidation end products.
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can you tell me what's MUFA!!
MUFA - monounsaturated fatty acids
PUFA - polyunsaturated fatty acids
SFA - saturated fatty acids
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That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%
Good catch. I knew that but missed it because I wasn't focusing on that, for my main point was re: the ridiculous claim of veg-heads that wolves eat stomach contents first or preferentially, which Gedgaudas personally witnessed to be a lie and on which I have personally seen a video showing a wolf taking great pains to empty out the stomach and entrails (wish I could find that video again). Unfortunately, Fallon's error distracted from the main point. Fallon was actually correct about a matter more relevant to what I was discussing--the alpha male wolf eats the liver first, not the stomach, which I have heard from multiple sources (such as the Mech and Boitani source I provided).
So if you hear someone claim that wolves or other canines eat the stomach or intestine contents first, you know they don't know what they're talking about and they're more focused on spreading pro-veg propaganda that they're parroting from a secondary, rather than a primary, source.
I found Gedgaudas' input much more interesting, BTW. It was intriguing how the host asking the questions ended up providing more interesting input of her own, to the point that Fallon was amazed. I hadn't been very interested in Gedgaudas up til now, given her support of the WAPF, but her direct work with wolves is very interesting. I'm finding that we can learn a lot by studying wild animals.
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... arteriosclerosis is linked heavily with heat-created toxins such as advanced glycation end products/advanced lipoxidation end products.
Thank you. Margarine too I heard. Could be a family thing passed down as well. We ate steamed greens and we'd put margarine on top of our servings. My Mother didn't though. She ate her vegetables plain. Like I said, I was raised with some unconscious paleo tendencies/influence.
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"Capybara, rabbits, hamsters and other related species do not have a complex ruminant digestive system. Instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft fecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not eaten.
Did you know many domestic animals will happily and healthily eat meat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zV8HnHp1I4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zV8HnHp1I4)
Hamsters are calmer and more aware if permitted to regularly hunt. They are not from an environment rich in alfalfa or lettuce. They are naturally nocturnal underground desert hunters. They may be able to live well on grass, but they get stronger and live even longer on raw or live insects.
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Did you know many domestic animals will happily and healthily eat meat?
Hamsters are calmer and more aware if permitted to regularly hunt. They are not from an environment rich in alfalfa or lettuce. They are naturally nocturnal underground desert hunters. They may be able to live well on grass, but they get stronger and live even longer on raw or live insects.
My wife and I have a wild-caught wood turtle that we found behind our house as a hatchling last June.
He's thriving on a diet of 95% meat including crickets, worms, slugs, snails, and of course some of my muscle and organ meats. The other 5% of the diet is berries (he adores raspberries) and a very seldom given (less than once a month) feeding of formed commercial "turtle food" (my wife is concerned that he won't get all his nutrients without this and I haven't convinced her otherwise).
In the almost 8 months we've had him he's grown very quickly; from a bit over an inch and a half long to 6 inches long. He's also very aware of everything around him and incredibly bright. :)
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Did you know many domestic animals will happily and healthily eat meat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zV8HnHp1I4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zV8HnHp1I4)
Hamsters are calmer and more aware if permitted to regularly hunt. They are not from an environment rich in alfalfa or lettuce. They are naturally nocturnal underground desert hunters. They may be able to live well on grass, but they get stronger and live even longer on raw or live insects.
Thanks for the vid. My favorite part was when the father said: "He's savoring it" and one of the girls said: "Finger lickin' good!" as the hamster licked his fingers. It was also cute the way the hamster sniffed around vigorously after he finished as if he was thinking, "More! More! I want more! Yum! Yum! Much better than the usual kibble crap those damn humans give me!"
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Thanks for the vid. .. Yum! Much better than the usual kibble crap those damn humans give me!"
LOL y/w. Thank you for viewing it. Poor things usually have to live on dried fluff instead of food with us.
I showed this to vegheads, they like the vid too.