Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joy2012 on January 28, 2012, 05:12:49 pm
-
In the non-raw world, "experts" tend to recommend fish over chicken over red meats. On the other hand, on this forum red meats appear to be valued most. What is the reason for this? Is this based on what we think most of our ancesters ate? Or does consuming red meats result in more healing/health benefits in people's personal experiences?
-
We are a large percent of red meat ourselves, so red meat is kinda closer to what we mostly need.
I like to eat both fish and meat though, together they provide for pretty balanced nutrition.
-
I find if I eat red meat more than occasionally- like maybe every other week or once a week at the most- I feel too heavy. I can eat fish and chicken much more often. On the other hand, red meat is the most nourishing thing of all; I love it, and as long as I keep it to moderation my body goes crazy for it. It's just for me it needs to be special in order to do its magic as a food. Others may experience it differently. I'm really skinny- that may be part of it.
-
My choice of grass-fed beef muscle and organs as food is based on a combination of personal taste preference, personal healing results (indigestion gone, arthritis gone, fatigue gone, female baldness gone, insomnia gone, constipation gone, etc.), price, and availability. I do not eat beef exclusively, but it's my main squeeze.
My choice to eat raw is based on some of the factors you mention (ancestral eating habits and personal healing experiences).
-
Hi Joy2012
strive to nourish the trust in your sensory awareness, pre, during and post eating. The food preference, most agreeable/beneficial to your body at a particular time, will make itself known.
(And of course what food may be most agreeable to one, may be far less agreeable to another).
Very broadly speaking, from a shamanic perspective, fish (because they are cool blooded, live in water and generally less fatty) are considered more cooling to the body, whereas beef (because it is warm blooded land animal and mostly has heavier fat content) is considered more warming to the body.
In addition, these broad characteristics then lend themselves to certain types of healing/nourishment.
But very few people just eat beef or fish and so, other foods like nuts and seeds, or fruits, or veggies likewise have intrinsic qualities, that also have impact on overall homeostasis and harmony of the body. And there are other influences also.
The knowledge one can gather about food (whatever the perspective) can, and is, beneficial, but - for what its worth - I feel cultivating direct awareness of sensory signals and sensations is a major step in the overall harmonious functioning of the mind/body organism.
-
Thanks to all for your replies, which give me food for thought.
strive to nourish the trust in your sensory awareness, pre, during and post eating. The food preference, most agreeable/beneficial to your body at a particular time, will make itself known.
The knowledge one can gather about food (whatever the perspective) can, and is, beneficial, but - for what its worth - I feel cultivating direct awareness of sensory signals and sensations is a major step in the overall harmonious functioning of the mind/body organism.
I do not know how to trust my sensory signals. If I go by that, I would love to eat the sweetest fruits all day long...
-
In the non-raw world, "experts" tend to recommend fish over chicken over red meats. On the other hand, on this forum red meats appear to be valued most.
I actually eat meat rarely. I do eat about a pound or more of raw fish/shellfish daily.
I do think that humans are more adapted to red meat than fish. However, ocean-caught wild fish live in an extremely high nutrient and mineral-rich environment. No soil on the planet, or at least very few soils, can compare to the mineral mix in the oceans. Plus, I can easily get VERY high-quality, unfrozen wild seafood at low prices. This isn't true with grassfed beef.
I do not know how to trust my sensory signals. If I go by that, I would love to eat the sweetest fruits all day long...
Now see, I am the opposite. I generally prefer fatty foods, although I do enjoy sweet foods too. You can train yourself to enjoy fat more, though. It just takes time. Retraining your instincts generally takes years for people raised on a regular junky American diet.
-
"I do not know how to trust my sensory signals. If I go by that, I would love to eat the sweetest fruits all day long..."
Hi Joy2012
yes, intellectually it is easy to say this (and it may in fact be the case for you) ...but you may find a different phenomena actually takes place.
With watchful awareness, 'sweet and tasty' may become 'too sweet', or uncomfortably sweet, or starts to burn in the mouth, brings sensations of discomfort, etc when the bodies needs are met.
Because we live so much in our thoughts about things, sometimes we miss the subtle nuances and sensations that occur.
Kind wishes, J
-
I do not know how to trust my sensory signals. If I go by that, I would love to eat the sweetest fruits all day long...
I doubt it, at some point you'll start feeling sick.
-
I doubt it, at some point you'll start feeling sick.
Yes I exaggerated—just a little bit. ;)
Many thanks to all for your kind advice. I will try to retrain my instincts. (Is this statement self-contradictory?)
-
Historically human settlements were concentrated near major bodies of water. Archeologists believe that most ancient settlements are submerged under former coastlines.
Recent discoveries have shown that Neanderthals ate many marine animals, and that H.erectus were skillful fishermen. Marine food must have been preferred due to abundance and ease of procurement.
Dr. Price was enamored with seafood and the rich fat soluble vitamins and minerals seafood contains. Small fish bones are the only verifiable and realistic source of calcium besides dairy.
It would be great to eat more marine foods, but in today’s world I think land animals are healthier as the oceans are being polluted and fish stocks are collapsing. Societies around the world must institute smart policies to improve the health of the oceans and rivers and manage our marine resources responsibly.
Then you and I can enjoy more seafood. ;)
-
It would be great to eat more marine foods, but in today’s world I think land animals are healthier...
This is a blanket statement. I would agree that it's important to avoid fish organs in large amounts, especially larger predatory fish, but I don't think the muscle meat of any species is particularly dangerous. I actually eat a lot of fatty fish, and have nothing but good results with it.
Sure, the fish that live near the raw sewage that some cities pump into the ocean are not fit for eating, but that's not happening everywhere that fish live.
I also eat a lot of scallops, which are pretty much all muscle, and have excellent results.
If you're going to talk me out of seafood, you're going to have to reference specific test results on specific toxins from specific species at specific places, tested at specific times.
-
You should probably go do your own research cheri, as it's you that's going to be affected.
I agree with Muhammad, as much as I don't want to believe it, fish stocks are fucked, and in the broad sense of health including the planet as well as each individual creature, it is much healthier to eat sustainable land animals than it is to eat aquatic. If the seas are to be repopulated to a sustainable level they're going to need a lot of compassion from us. That means very little fish consumption for a long time. That also means the removal of dams and cessation of pollution. The oceans are profoundly deep and rich in life, which is why it's so fucking incredible that we've managed to fish and poison them to the extents that we have. Until sustainable fish farming, ie permaculture, is widely implemented, and we give the ocean fisheries a break, we're continuing down a long, ugly road toward destruction and depletion.
Recommended Reading: Four Fish, available via demoid as an audiobook, or probably your local library.
-
Hello cherimoya_kid, my current position is yes, fish is good, but because of the reality which humankind has created we must be responsible with how we enjoy it. Heavy metal and chemical pollution in the oceans is common knowledge. Of course you can reduce the impact by eating certain fish i.e. smaller, fattier, farther from land, etc. But the fact is oceans and their denizens are contaminated and suffering more every day.
Industries pollute with methyl-mercury, arsenic, and other heavy metals. Chemical runoff and PCB’s are infecting water systems. Plastics, oil spills, and shipping are also contaminating sea life, and the pièce de résistance, giant manmade continents of floating garbage and waste have emerged. Of all the things we’ve lost from the primal world, it is the oceans and waters which life itself depends on, which are the saddest losses.
Only a few hundred years ago the oceans were immense azure jewels of beauty and bounty. Here in eastern Canada the early explorers’ ships would frequently run aground upon schools of millions of fish, so plentiful were the fish in those days. It would be wonderful to go swimming and fishing in oceans and rivers which are clean, healthy, and sanguine with life.
Of course there is always hope: through education, activism, and legislation our societies can steer a course to restore our marine systems. As CitrusHigh mentioned, it will take sacrifice, discipline, and good managment on a global level, but having our oceans healthy and sustainable is worth it indeed.
-
We are a large percent of red meat ourselves, so red meat is kinda closer to what we mostly ...
I've only eaten meat that had the blood drained out of it. Chickens, goats and pigs have red blood, fish not always. Cows have red blood. Drained, cows have red muscle meat, the others tend to be lighter, except tuna. Why is human called long pig? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/long+pig (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/long+pig) Have you seen human flesh drained? I'm told by soldiers human flesh is light color.
-
"Why is human called long pig? "
Because headhunters say that human flesh tastes something like pig. LOL Eating some of the flesh or organs (such as liver--which was originally believed to be the main seat of the soul) of a powerful enemy is supposed to give you some of his mana/spirit/power. In some cultures it was even seen as a courtesy to the enemy, to appease his spirit and give him new life by letting it come into you rather than just leave it to wander around without a host. I don't recommend eating long pig, though. LOL
-
Historically human settlements were concentrated near major bodies of water. Archeologists believe that most ancient settlements are submerged under former coastlines.
Recent discoveries have shown that Neanderthals ate many marine animals, and that H.erectus were skillful fishermen. Marine food must have been preferred due to abundance and ease of procurement.
Dr. Price was enamored with seafood and the rich fat soluble vitamins and minerals seafood contains. Small fish bones are the only verifiable and realistic source of calcium besides dairy.
It would be great to eat more marine foods, but in today’s world I think land animals are healthier as the oceans are being polluted and fish stocks are collapsing. Societies around the world must institute smart policies to improve the health of the oceans and rivers and manage our marine resources responsibly.
Then you and I can enjoy more seafood. ;)
I have no problems enjoying a large amount of sea food.
We got lots of great sea food here.
It's a matter of sourcing clean food.
-
You should probably go do your own research cheri, as it's you that's going to be affected.
You should probably get real, and realize I don't give a damn. No offense, dude, but...I've been doing this a long time, and it's working for me very well. You're not even 100% raw, and are a relative newbie. You bring a lot of emotion and passion, which is what it takes to get there....but I bring knowledge, which is the result of years of passion and hard work. I'm already there, so to speak. Not all the way, but farther along.
If all fish stocks were that polluted, then there'd be a lot more noise about it, like there is re: mercury.
-
cherymoya, I hope your view regarding seafoods safety is correct, for I like salmon.
My brother told me that his foremer boss is diagnosed with ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis). His doctor said that the cause of his ALS is that there is much mercury inside his body, presumably caused by his daily consumption of wild-caught fish, which has been his main diet for years because he is rich enough to afford it. What will you say about this?
-
My brother told me that his foremer boss is diagnosed with ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis). His doctor said that the cause of his ALS is that there is much mercury inside his body, presumably caused by his daily consumption of wild-caught fish, which has been his main diet for years because he is rich enough to afford it. What will you say about this?
Sounds like too much post hoc ergo propter hoc in his system. Dangerous stuff, that.
-
His doctor said that the cause of his ALS is that there is much mercury inside his body, presumably caused by his daily consumption of wild-caught fish, which has been his main diet for years because he is rich enough to afford it. What will you say about this?
His doctor is a raw foodist? For years he ate all raw fish only and only saw negative outcome? Was he intentionally making more money cause he craved fish and wanted enough money for what he got in fish? Many rich people hate fish and eat lots of prime rib.
-
I thought that statement might be misunderstood. I think it's silly to demand that people produce proof. Obviously if they believe it it's good enough for them. My suggestion for you to go do the research for yourself is because that is for you, what do we care if you don't believe it. I know you're pretty well read and probably have satisfied yourself that your practices are healthful. Likewise, so have I. Though one day I would like to be 100% raw, I'm not because I enjoy the flavors of cooked foods enough that for me it's worth it. I've already reached the level of health that prior to this diet I thought was impossible, that is, I do not get sick and my major health issues have vanished. If I can do that while still eating a significant portion of hash browns and tacos, I think I'm sitting pretty! MmmMm. When I'm ready to mostly let those things go, I will!
In any case I'm not saying you can't eat fish healthfully Cheri, I'm saying it's not sustainable any way you slice it at the current rates things are fished. It's not just about you bruva.
This isn't a dick measuring competition, and the quality of knowledge is not directly proportional to the amount of time someone's been doing something. That is a fallacious way of looking at things.
You could probably live entirely on fish still, and more or less healthfully. But guess what, if every person on earth got their couple of portions of fish per week, stocks would be depleted in no time. As it is with fish consumption increasing we're not going to be able to keep up with demand. I repeat, ease up on the fish or there probably won't be much for your grandchildren, or theirs!
-
I'm not sure about that sustainability claim, there's a lot more ocean than land.
-
And this is what is so fascinating to me. How people can bury their heads so deep in their wishful thinking that they can't easily see things that are so incredibly, blatantly obvious right in front of their faces.
The natives used to be able to KICK fish up on shore here in the US because they were so plentiful. Have you ever seen fish populations like that other than the salmon runs? Does it mean anything to you at all that shrimp fisherman have to go in to deeper and deeper waters to make the kind of catches they used to with nets handcasted from shore? Does it mean anything that fishing companies go through one fishery after another, fishing this species down until they are not catching anything, then moving on to the next most desirable/abundant species.
Absolutely the ocean is massive! Which is a great comment about the magnitude of the destruction and overfishing we've accomplished! Yes, the ocean is marvelous, and if we walked away from fishing today and just let it breathe for even 20 years, most populations would rebound enormously. But that isn't happening is it! Quite the opposite. Fishing technology is getting more and more sophisticated and they are going deeper and deeper. Why are they going deeper? Because there's not much near the surface anymore.
It just ain't fucking sustainable, get over it.
I don't throw around stats too much because who knows if they're every reliable and a lot of times, just like "double blind" studies, they can be engineered to say whatever you want them to say. But since people here seem to go gaga over the stuff. here you go... Notice the pop. decline since the 60's.
http://www.bigmarinefish.com/bluefin.html (http://www.bigmarinefish.com/bluefin.html)
Do you realize the proportion of 40 years to the great scheme of things. How much is 40 years or so in relation to 100,000,000 years? 10,000,000,000? Need I take it any further? And those are the figures for just one species, this is happening all across the board with all of the commercial species...
That is the the definition of unsustainable...
-
Since when is depending on wild life sustainable? As far as I understood you're talking about wild life in oceans.
If fish would be farmed properly, like grass-fed meat for example.. I don't see how's that less sustainable than meat.
-
Oh ma gosh, it's not, but how many truly sustainable fish farms do you know of?
-
cherymoya, I hope your view regarding seafoods safety is correct, for I like salmon.
My brother told me that his foremer boss is diagnosed with ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis). His doctor said that the cause of his ALS is that there is much mercury inside his body, presumably caused by his daily consumption of wild-caught fish, which has been his main diet for years because he is rich enough to afford it. What will you say about this?
Where are the studies showing a link between ALS and mercury?
The statement is almost too stupid to be worth responding to. There are dozens of traditional groups all over the world, from Eskimos to Pacific Islanders, who eat large amounts of seafood their whole lives. These groups don't have endemic mercury poisoning. By all rights, they should, since they eat WAAAY more seafood than Americans, etc.. For that that matter, the Japanese and coastal Chinese, Vietnamese, and Thai eat large amounts as well, even though they're not paleo. Those populations are not stricken with mercury poisoning.
So, yeah. Proof is good. Random baseless vegan-style fear, not so much.
-
I thought that statement might be misunderstood. I think it's silly to demand that people produce proof. Obviously if they believe it it's good enough for them. My suggestion for you to go do the research for yourself is because that is for you, what do we care if you don't believe it. I know you're pretty well read and probably have satisfied yourself that your practices are healthful. Likewise, so have I. Though one day I would like to be 100% raw, I'm not because I enjoy the flavors of cooked foods enough that for me it's worth it. I've already reached the level of health that prior to this diet I thought was impossible, that is, I do not get sick and my major health issues have vanished. If I can do that while still eating a significant portion of hash browns and tacos, I think I'm sitting pretty! MmmMm. When I'm ready to mostly let those things go, I will!
In any case I'm not saying you can't eat fish healthfully Cheri, I'm saying it's not sustainable any way you slice it at the current rates things are fished. It's not just about you bruva.
This isn't a dick measuring competition, and the quality of knowledge is not directly proportional to the amount of time someone's been doing something. That is a fallacious way of looking at things.
You could probably live entirely on fish still, and more or less healthfully. But guess what, if every person on earth got their couple of portions of fish per week, stocks would be depleted in no time. As it is with fish consumption increasing we're not going to be able to keep up with demand. I repeat, ease up on the fish or there probably won't be much for your grandchildren, or theirs!
I don't care about fish in 100 years. We'll be growing fish/meat in vats for people to eat on a large scale within 15-20 years, most likely. It can already be done now, just not cheaply. The wild populations will easily rebound, when we're all eating vat-grown fish/meat.
If you don't understand Moore's Law and it's corollaries, then please don't argue with the assertions I just made. And please, keep it respectful. You really are speaking to someone with greater knowledge here, and this is a health board, not a "sustainable living" board. We have members who don't give a damn about sustainability, and you need to respect that fact. I'm all for sustainability, but I'm not interested in Chicken Little "The Sky is falling!" BS, which is what you're spreading.
In other words, panic is not welcome here. Panic is for vegans.
-
How can you separate health from sustainability? That is disconnected thinking.
And your calling me a vegan-like alarmist is a sad attempt at creating a straw man. Marlin will be virtually extinct at current fishing rates, within five(5!!!!) yrs. That sounds like it would be a good reason to panic...at least if I were a marlin....
You would do well to come down from your pedestal. Knowledge isn't a continuum, every one has a different combination of it, everyone is both elder and student. Your cup is full, so you cannot see this.
-
Hey Citrus - I once saw an interview with a woman scientist who wrote a book on what we are doing to our oceans and she said that there are certain species of fish that should never be eaten because of the massive destruction done to the ocean floor in their harvest (pretty sure shrimp was one - they just dig up the whole ecosystem getting them and destroy the habitat). She did say we should limit our choices to just a few species where there is little harm done - but now I can't remember what those species were.
Have you stumbled upon this in your research by any chance?
Oh - and I told my fish monger I would send him the link you posted to that amazing fishery/nature preserve in Spain, but I'm having trouble finding it on the board. Would you be able to find that easily?
Thanks.
-
Here is a link to that place, Veta La Palma fish farm, south spain. If you would prefer an article with more pics or different info, just search out the name with your favorite search engine. Enjoy!
http://itstheenvironmentstupid.com/?p=1120 (http://itstheenvironmentstupid.com/?p=1120)
-
How can you separate health from sustainability? That is disconnected thinking.
And your calling me a vegan-like alarmist is a sad attempt at creating a straw man. Marlin will be virtually extinct at current fishing rates, within five(5!!!!) yrs. That sounds like it would be a good reason to panic...at least if I were a marlin....
You would do well to come down from your pedestal. Knowledge isn't a continuum, every one has a different combination of it, everyone is both elder and student. Your cup is full, so you cannot see this.
So I think I already said this is a health forum, not a sustainability forum. Maybe you'd feel more comfortable denouncing me from a safe distance, at a sustainability forum.
Seriously, I don't think you're really at home here, maybe. You're proud of the fact that you eat cooked food, you come here and criticize people...you can flame out, if you would like. I hate to ban people, or see them flame out, but both happen.
I do need you to stop spreading the panic and dread, please. You've seen me ban others. Don't put me in a position where I have to make a decision on whether or not to ban you, please.
-
You have sidestepped what I said, which is a legitimate point.
I'm have not criticized anyone, but I have criticized ideas, which I think is within board guidelines. And only when I felt it was warranted. I'm not promoting cooked food, but if the point of this board is health then I have adequately stated that my belief is, if it's not easily digestible raw, then it's not food (defined as a nourishing, life giving, non-toxic aliment) for you. That doesn't mean you can't choose to eat it!
Why are you so threatened? What cherished ideas of yours are under attack here that you have gotten defensive to the point where you'll consider banning me? Why do you need it to be ok to consume large quantities of fish?
I practice non-attachment, ban me if you like, you have a duty to if it's to everyone's benefit here.
-
For me personally I've gotten much more healing experiences from red meat. Just more satisfying, helps my training more too, and my body/mind feels more at peace.
But not only does red meat feel more healing, I like the taste of red meat more too, I almost despise the taste of pork (does not include wild boar), chicken, fish and other lighter meats sometimes. This is my experience with both cooked and raw meats. The thought of eating some chicken or fish sounds kind of disgusting sometimes actually haha But red meat sounds tasty everyday, especially meat from older animals. Which is probably why I love venison. I don't like veal meat much at all.
This is just based on my personal experience on meats that are unseasoned, both cooked and raw. Other people may be completely different. The taste of grain fed beef can be horrible too, depending on the extremes of which it was raised.
-
For me personally I've gotten much more healing experiences from red meat. Just more satisfying, helps my training more too, and my body/mind feels more at peace.
But not only does red meat feel more healing, I like the taste of red meat more too, I almost despise the taste of pork (does not include wild boar), chicken, fish and other lighter meats sometimes. This is my experience with both cooked and raw meats. The thought of eating some chicken or fish sounds kind of disgusting sometimes actually haha But red meat sounds tasty everyday, especially meat from older animals. Which is probably why I love venison. I don't like veal meat much at all.
This is just based on my personal experience on meats that are unseasoned, both cooked and raw. Other people may be completely different. The taste of grain fed beef can be horrible too, depending on the extremes of which it was raised.
I'm not arguing taste. My favorite raw flesh food is probably fatty escolar (hawaiian butterfish), or fatty tuna. However, raw fat from healthy pigs is in a very close second place (it's almost too close to call), and raw grassfed meat is a close 3rd. I can definitely see how someone could prefer meat to fish.
To CitrusHigh--If there are more important things to you than health and health research, then you shouldn't be focusing this much of your energy here. That's the whole point of this forum. Most of the mods here can get away with eating some cooked food from time to time without major health problems. In fact, most of the mods do, including me. That's not the point. The POINT is that you can either eat a mostly-raw diet, with some cheating, and be satisfied with that...or you can keep researching. By definition, all the mods here are researchers. We are open to new truths. Of all the people we've banned (who aren't just link-spamming), there's not one person who I would classify as a researcher. You're not one either. You are sure of yourself, and you're preaching. That's what researchers avoid.
Believe me, I have spent lots of time thinking and caring about sustainability. If I thought that we wouldn't all be eating vat-grown meat in 20 years, I'd worry too, almost as much as you do. However, my research indicates to me that we probably will be. Meanwhile, I've still got some things about myself I'd like to improve, so I keep researching. I'm also driven by simple intellectual curiosity as well.
You are not. You are a preacher. I appreciate your passion, and I like you as a person, but...the people who fit this forum best are researchers with burning curiosity and a desire to know. Our minds are open. You, OTOH, seem like you want to preach.
There are better forums for that, you can probably find some sustainability forums, or whatever topic gets you fired up.
This isn't the only forum I post in. I'm into video gaming and IP connectivity topics, but I don't talk about those things here...nor do I talk about health on THOSE forums. It doesn't fit. Believe me, man, there are other forums.
My advice? Please do your preaching about sustainability on forums designed for discussions about sustainability.
And I'm not worried about running out of fish. If we do, I'll just eat more pigs and cows. They're tasty too. Even if we run out of fish, by the time it happens, research into soil quality and grass-feeding is going to be more widely understood and accepted...which means I'll be more likely to easily find animals raised on the highest-possible quality of food. Right now, that's hard.
Fish, OTOH, automatically have a complete and perfect diet, because the ocean is chock-full of minerals. Almost no soils are as mineral-rich as the ocean always is. They can be made mineral-rich, but I'm going to let everybody catch up with me on soil research, rather than exhausting myself trying to spread the truth about soil improvement, or starting my own farm. Starting your own farm is fucking hard work. I'm not going to fund it by myself, nor start it by myself, nor WORK it by myself.
If you'd like to get a bunch of people together with money and strong backs, feel free. I've got access to the best research available on how to feed soil, where to put the farm, etc.. I'm not going to bust my butt doing all that work, though. I'd have to simultaneously educate AND organize AND fund-raise. On the other hand, I can just let everybody catch up with me, and eat fish while they do.
-
Sully, I'm kinda the opposite to you in that fish tastes good and makes me feel good most of the time and red meat doesn't appeal at all most of the time. I guess that's an Instincto kind of thing.
Citrus - thanks so much for that link again. What a magnificent person and place. If only all fish were produced like that!
-
Even if we run out of fish, by the time it happens, research into soil quality and grass-feeding is going to be more widely understood and accepted...which means I'll be more likely to easily find animals raised on the highest-possible quality of food. Right now, that's hard.
Fish, OTOH, automatically have a complete and perfect diet, because the ocean is chock-full of minerals. Almost no soils are as mineral-rich as the ocean always is. They can be made mineral-rich, but I'm going to let everybody catch up with me on soil research, rather than exhausting myself trying to spread the truth about soil improvement, or starting my own farm.
So based on your research you believe wild caught Alaskan salmon is more nutritious than grass-fed red meat? A number of members on this forum claim that red meats have healed their bodies better than fish.
I am just interested in finding out what is best for my health, red meat or fish. As for sustainability, I hope governments and experts will do their job in informing people and setting up regulations.
-
Sully, I'm kinda the opposite to you in that fish tastes good and makes me feel good most of the time and red meat doesn't appeal at all most of the time. I guess that's an Instincto kind of thing.
Citrus - thanks so much for that link again. What a magnificent person and place. If only all fish were produced like that!
Haha, yeah I guess we have different instincts. I must say though, as far as taste, fresh raw wild albacore tuna is pretty good to me. I only got it fresh on the west coast on a trip once. I do like picked herring a lot too. But it's seasoned and soaked/aged in vinegar.
-
Haha, yeah I guess we have different instincts. I must say though, as far as taste, fresh raw wild albacore tuna is pretty good to me. I only got it fresh on the west coast on a trip once. I do like picked herring a lot too. But it's seasoned and soaked/aged in vinegar.
I've never had pickled herring. If it's the right vinegar I bet that could be yummy - but can you buy it raw already pickled? When things are pickled 99 out 100 times they are cooked. Sounds like a good project learning how to pickle herrings raw.
-
So based on your research you believe wild caught Alaskan salmon is more nutritious than grass-fed red meat? A number of members on this forum claim that red meats have healed their bodies better than fish.
I am just interested in finding out what is best for my health, red meat or fish. As for sustainability, I hope governments and experts will do their job in informing people and setting up regulations.
Yes, I think wild salmon is better than meat, unless the meat is from animals raised on very high-quality grass. Raw wild salmon makes me nauseous, though, so I don't eat it.
As to which works the best for you, you'll just have to experiment.
-
Thanks.
Do you think "taste" can be the judge? If one species pleases me more in taste, could that mean that this species is probably the best for me health-wise?
-
Thanks.
Do you think "taste" can be the judge? If one species pleases me more in taste, could that mean that this species is probably the best for me health-wise?
Generally, yes. I really enjoy fatty fish, and I know that it's also good for me. I like non-fatty fish too, but not as much.
However, you have to remember that people have to learn to enjoy some organs, like brain. Other organs, like thyroid or adrenals, are easier to learn to enjoy, and you can trust your instincts on them sooner than you can with brain.
-
Thanks, cherimoya_kid.
-
For me, white meat, especially seafood works much better than beef and other red meat, as long as it is 100% raw and 100% wild.
Beef makes me nervous, aggressive, introverted and anxious very often whereas seafood makes me calm, friendly, communicative and happy, no joke. Further more beef fat gives me body odour which is particularly nasty in warm places like Florida.
Very different effects on different people, obviously. Is Aajonus (nowadays) still the only one who has written about these different predispositions?
Löwenherz
-
For me, white meat, especially seafood works much better than beef and other red meat, as long as it is 100% raw and 100% wild.
Beef makes me nervous, aggressive, introverted and anxious very often whereas seafood makes me calm, friendly, communicative and happy, no joke. Further more beef fat gives me body odour which is particularly nasty in warm places like Florida.
Very different effects on different people, obviously. Is Aajonus (nowadays) still the only one who has written about these different predispositions?
Löwenherz
Nice to know what's working for you.
What I noticed is that our needs change.
I've only been on raw paleo for 4 years and I've had my binges.
There was a time when beef was my thing every day.
There was a time when it was oysters.
There was a time when it was coconuts.
There was a time when it was blue marlin fish.
There was a time when it was durian.
There was a time I craved raw starches.
This is why I keep reading the instincto teachings. Need to listen to what we need. Healing and eventual balance takes time.
-
Nice to know what's working for you.
What I noticed is that our needs change.
I've only been on raw paleo for 4 years and I've had my binges.
There was a time when beef was my thing every day.
There was a time when it was oysters.
There was a time when it was coconuts.
There was a time when it was blue marlin fish.
There was a time when it was durian.
There was a time I craved raw starches.
This is why I keep reading the instincto teachings. Need to listen to what we need. Healing and eventual balance takes time.
Yep. Absolutely. I totally agree with this.
-
I've never had pickled herring. If it's the right vinegar I bet that could be yummy - but can you buy it raw already pickled? When things are pickled 99 out 100 times they are cooked. Sounds like a good project learning how to pickle herrings raw.
Yeah I think almost all or most pickled herring is pickled raw. I think it just can't be pickled if it was cooked. Unlike vegetables etc. Since cooking makes fish dry and flaky, which would be pretty nasty to pickle cooked herring haha. This is the best brand I tried so far. http://www.mabaensch.com/ (http://www.mabaensch.com/)
they used to use beet sugar, but now they use regular sugar. Some brands use high fructos corn syrup, so be careful. The ingredients of this brand I think is Herring, Vinegar, Onions, Sugar, Salt, and maybe some other spices. So not all that bad.
Edit: "Ma Baensch uses pure liquid beet sugar. Most other herring brands use standard corn syrup." It says that on their website. Hmm, on the label I noticed a while ago it changed from beet sugar to just "sugar".
-
Generally, yes. I really enjoy fatty fish, and I know that it's also good for me. I like non-fatty fish too, but not as much.
However, you have to remember that people have to learn to enjoy some organs, like brain. Other organs, like thyroid or adrenals, are easier to learn to enjoy, and you can trust your instincts on them sooner than you can with brain.
Yeah I agree with this. Also my favorite fish is pretty fatty. Raw albacore tuna. I dried it once, it was just oozing OIL! It's very delicious cool, fresh and raw.
-
Sully - did you like that dried tuna? Oozing oil sounds yummy. :)
Thanks so much for that link on the pickled herring. I'm going to order me some!
-
Sully - did you like that dried tuna? Oozing oil sounds yummy. :)
Thanks so much for that link on the pickled herring. I'm going to order me some!
Oh yeah, it was very crispy and easy to chew, amazing! Nice, I am sure you will like the herring! I think it's pretty cool they make the picked herring in the city I live in. I can just get it from the stores :) I don't recommend eating too much. But its a nice treat! I ate it often when I was a kid too
-
Oopsy - just read that their wine sauce was "secret". I can't do that because if they added canola oil or some other nasty oil I could feel really sick. I have to be so careful about that. Cooked or even pasteurized dairy - a little and I'm ok - but just even a tiny bit of a nasty oil does a real number on me.
Darn those company secrets! :'(
-
Re: the thread topic, I seem to get more benefit from red meats than fish, but I don't see why it has to be an either-or. Why not eat both? Most of our ancient ancestors probably wouldn't have turned their noses up at either and there is plenty of science showing benefits from the highest quality versions of both.
-
Re: the thread topic, I seem to get more benefit from red meats than fish, but I don't see why it has to be an either-or. Why not eat both? Most of our ancient ancestors probably wouldn't have turned their noses up at either and there is plenty of science showing benefits from the highest quality versions of both.
Yes, exactly, and I recommend both, too, as long as you can get good-quality sources of both. There are some organs/tissues of land animals that have excellent healing benefits.
-
Nice to know what's working for you.
What I noticed is that our needs change.
I agree.
Nevertheless it's interesting to notice that my reaction to raw beef didn't change since 1998/1999, the beginning of my raw food lifestyle...
Löwenherz
-
I agree.
Nevertheless it's interesting to notice that my reaction to raw beef didn't change since 1998/1999, the beginning of my raw food lifestyle...
Löwenherz
Beef is probably one of our most natural foods. It's probably the least allergenic thing you can eat, and one of the easiest to digest, for most people.
-
Beef is probably one of our most natural foods. It's probably the least allergenic thing you can eat, and one of the easiest to digest, for most people.
What is the reason for what you stated?
-
What is the reason for what you stated?
Well, humans have been eating meat since before we evolved into being human. It makes sense that a food that we've been eating continuously for millions of years would NOT cause allergic reactions, or be difficult to digest.
Also, there's plenty of research showing that red meat has probably the lowest rate of allergic reaction of any food. Also, it's difficult to find a raw whole food that's easier to digest than red meat. Very few people have problems digesting it.
-
Thanks.
-
Most of the mods here can get away with eating some cooked food from time to time without major health problems. In fact, most of the mods do, including me. That's not the point. The POINT is that you can either eat a mostly-raw diet, with some cheating, and be satisfied with that...or you can keep researching.
First this is doesn't make any sense in the context of your other accusations. The VAST majority of my diet is raw, most of that is raw animal foods. The relatively small amount of cooked foods I eat, I do so for the same reasons you probably do, because they taste good and so far I haven't found raw foods that could mimic those particular flavors. I NEVER stop researching and learning, I'm just not so biased about where the info comes from. I have the wisdom and brainpower to consider everything and determine what makes sense and what does not. That's why I can look at fantastic claims of flies manifesting on rock without feeling threatened. If it's true, then that will become apparent eventually, if false, the same.
Also, with having double standards like those in the above comments (you can eat some cooked foods but I can't?) you are setting yourself up in your little kingdom here like a monarch, or the leaders of the catholic church (we can have riches, but you can't). Get over yourself, I'm not trying to become the alpha here, just raising some valid, highly pertinent ideas related to this discussion. You're thinking of health as strictly the biochemical, acute, physical, health of individual human beings (which is both speciesist and narrow sighted), but our health is tied to that of everything else on the planet. The fact that we have driven as many species to extinction as we have (will you deny this?) is the kind of evidence prosecutors love to have in court. This is where many of our species of fish are headed in less than the 20 years you're citing for your farmed frankenfish.
-
Speciesist?
Frankenfish?
You know, I'm not even going to touch that.
And as for double standard, I've gone literally YEARS at a time without eating EVEN ONE SPECK of cooked food. I don't think that's really necessary for the purposes of the experiment, but I've done it. However, I think you should at least try to go a few weeks or months at a time without, just for the purposes of the experiment, to see what it does for you. In nearly every case, it's not whether or not you eat cooked, anyway, it's really the amount that you eat. 1 gram of cooked (say, moderately boiled) meat is not going to cause most people any real health problems, even if they eat it every day. 100 grams every day, on the other hand, might cause some problems. 1000 grams definitely would cause at least some health issues, for pretty much anyone. That's just an example.
And to clarify, I've got nothing against eating farmed fish, as long as they are as healthy as the wild-caught. However, freshwater fish do tend to have some nastier parasites, and all the farm-raised fish that I'm aware of are freshwater, with the exception of salmon and shrimp. Neither farmed salmon nor farmed shrimp are fed particularly ideal diets, especially the salmon. Show me a farm-raised saltwater fish that is as healthy as its wild counterpart, and I'll eat it happily.
-
Hoo boy, the price of one of my favorite fish, wild king salmon, is up to $29.99/lb at my local healthfood market (vs. $6.99/.lb for top-quality 100% grassfed ground beef, and $11.99/.lb for duck breast at the same market). It has gotten out of my reach for anything but a tiny sample each week or two.
-
Wow, wild king salmon shot up again to $33.99/lb! However, the prediction for the catch this year is optimistic, so maybe the price will go down.
-
Mackerel is comparatively cheep. I just tried Shad fish and it was $7 fresh caught, and a little salmon like-ish!!! :P Eating a variety makes your favorites never get old.
I feel poor lately too. I just eat the best I can in tough times. I don't like the pinch but I could easily become extravagant, so it balances me. I've been eating 6-8 eggs a day. I lightly fry the whites in coconut oil or butter on the lowest setting it is warm but only to streaks of white, not all cooked.Then I mix the warmed/cooked whites back with the yolks and slurp it all down. I love it actually. I started cooking the whites for my dog then I wanted some. The whites are like egg drop soup, without the other stuff. I salt and pepper it. I have no stomach upset, which I still sometimes get from totally raw whites, and then I don't waste when I'm broke. When I'm working more hours, I'll eat more fresh fish and meat, but I'm enjoying this and its better than abandoning ship.
-
Shad are herring, right? I occasionally see and buy "fresh" and frozen raw mackerel at my main market--it was last at $12.23/lb. I haven't seen fresh raw herring there yet, unfortunately. They do have pickled (vinegared) herring, which I don't care for. I doubt I buy enough fish and don't have enough freezer space to make special trips for possibly cheaper fish worth it for me.
-
yes Shad is herring, it is like salmon in that it lives in the sea and spawns in rivers. Not salmon, but not bad.
-
What is sockeye salmon priced at for you Phil? Here it volley's between 9.99/lb which is ridiculously cheap IMO, and 13.99, which is still too cheap IMO.
-
Generally $12.99-13.99, IIRC, mostly frozen. I was buying it a lot, but lately only frozen sockeye has been available, and not even that sometimes, so my purchases of it have dropped off somewhat. I used to like to buy king salmon too, which I find to be the best tasting salmon, but my purchases were somewhat limited by price and now it has gone out of my price range other than the occasional small morsel. One rarely reads in Paleo forums, raw or cooked, about high and rising prices of the best Paleo foods. Instead I mainly see "Eat ___, it's yummy." When I look for the most often praised foods (king salmon, cherimoya, durian, raw dairy foods, etc.) I often find them to be much more expensive and/or difficult to obtain than many other foods, including even other Paleo foods. The cashier nearly had a fit when he saw the cost of a single cherimoya, for example. This probably generally affects those of us in cold, land-locked areas more than people living in warm seaports. Increasingly I've had to compromise on taste and variety to try to keep the food budget under control.
Like Lex, I also want to keep things relatively simple, so I'm not highly interested in going to lots more food sources than the four or five I currently use for expensive foods that aren't my staples.
-
Lately, the cheaper sockeye salmon hasn't been available at all at my main market, even frozen. Today the cheapest wild salmon was frozen Coho, $18.39/lb.
-
Mackerel is comparatively cheep. I just tried Shad fish and it was $7 fresh caught, and a little salmon like-ish!!! :P Eating a variety makes your favorites never get old.
I feel poor lately too. I just eat the best I can in tough times. I don't like the pinch but I could easily become extravagant, so it balances me. I've been eating 6-8 eggs a day. I lightly fry the whites in coconut oil or butter on the lowest setting it is warm but only to streaks of white, not all cooked.Then I mix the warmed/cooked whites back with the yolks and slurp it all down. I love it actually. I started cooking the whites for my dog then I wanted some. The whites are like egg drop soup, without the other stuff. I salt and pepper it. I have no stomach upset, which I still sometimes get from totally raw whites, and then I don't waste when I'm broke. When I'm working more hours, I'll eat more fresh fish and meat, but I'm enjoying this and its better than abandoning ship.
Fresh sashimi grade mackerel is fantastic, I could eat it along with salmon and yellow tail all day, everyday if I didn't have to take out a second mortgage to afford it.
-
I don't get sashimi grade. I don't really know if that means the same thing all the time. I heard it refers to previously frozen, or a type of cut. Instead I go to the best fish market in town. They have fresh fish Tues. -Sat. They are a family that has been in business a long time and they know an amazing amount about fish. I'm learning from them a little at a time. I go there often and they know me and what I like. I sometimes spend $15/lb on fish but I find nice fish for $9, or $12 most often. I usually buy the whole fish and clean and skin it myself. My point is to find a fish man who knows his fish, then he can tell you what is the best fish for your $$$$. I just bought a nice piece of tuna $12/lb that he said he liked better than the $28 sashimi. It was good. ;) Anybody who lives near a city should find a good fish market. I hope you find better deals.
-
I just buy the best wild fish I can afford and notice that the best of the best tends to say "sashimi grade," for whatever reason. I don't really care about the label, so I don't think it's influencing me overly much. I think they tend to choose the preferred types and cuts as well as best quality of fish for "sashimi grade," which may all be factors. For example, king salmon is only sold in shashimi grade at my main market. It's expensive, so when people buy it they tend to want the best, I figure. I would think that coastal cities probably generally have more and cheaper and/or fresher fish markets than inland cities. There is a fish market in a nearby town, but they only list frozen wild salmon, none "fresh", which would probably have to be express-vanned on a lengthy trip from Boston or NY Harbour to their Vermont market for a high price, and apparently no king salmon, which may be too pricey for their clientele. Like my main market, they do also take special orders at an extra cost.
-
I don't get sashimi grade. I don't really know if that means the same thing all the time. I heard it refers to previously frozen, or a type of cut. Instead I go to the best fish market in town. They have fresh fish Tues. -Sat. They are a family that has been in business a long time and they know an amazing amount about fish. I'm learning from them a little at a time. I go there often and they know me and what I like. I sometimes spend $15/lb on fish but I find nice fish for $9, or $12 most often. I usually buy the whole fish and clean and skin it myself. My point is to find a fish man who knows his fish, then he can tell you what is the best fish for your $$$$. I just bought a nice piece of tuna $12/lb that he said he liked better than the $28 sashimi. It was good. ;) Anybody who lives near a city should find a good fish market. I hope you find better deals.
It usually is suppose to be synonymous with fresh wild caught fish, the best cut, or high grade that sushi restaurants procure, at least that's what I've been told and what I can surmise. I think your right though in that may not be necessarily the case and it can differ substantially from one place to the next. That's great that you found a fantastic source, the best way to go for sure. I live more in the center of the U.S. in Colorado and it's been hard to try to find a good source for a decent price as most fish needs to be overnighted in since CO isn't coastal which leads to the expensive price tags.
-
I just buy the best wild fish I can afford and notice that the best of the best tends to say "sashimi grade," for whatever reason. I don't really care about the label, so I don't think it's influencing me overly much. I think they tend to choose the preferred types and cuts as well as best quality of fish for "sashimi grade," which may all be factors. For example, king salmon is only sold in shashimi grade at my main market. It's expensive, so when people buy it they tend to want the best, I figure. I would think that coastal cities probably generally have more and cheaper and/or fresher fish markets than inland cities. There is a fish market in a nearby town, but they only list frozen wild salmon, none "fresh", which would probably have to be express-vanned on a lengthy trip from Boston or NY Harbour to their Vermont market for a high price, and apparently no king salmon, which may be too pricey for their clientele. Like my main market, they do also take special orders at an extra cost.
I was researching this recently as I was looking to source some high quality raw fish without having constantly to eat it at a restaurant. As far as labeling laws apply, there is no regulation whatsoever in the US, at least, as to what can be called sushi or sashimi grade fish. In general, seafood vendors call fish "sashimi grade" when it has been flash frozen on the ships shortly after catch and is then cut in ways preferred by sushi chefs for preparing the smaller cuts for individual servings.
-
Yeah, that's one reason why I go by what tastes the best, basically using the Instincto approach, rather than what the label says. It just so happens that the fish labeled "sashimi grade" tastes the best to me, but the label means nothing to me. My local market actually has the best quality food I've ever encountered anywhere on the East coast of the USA. They have very high standards. Unfortunately, they also have high prices. LOL
-
My five yrs old son hates fish and all other sea food. He becomes ill before when I tried to feed them forcefully buying from whole food markets only. I remember the day I gave him 1st raw beef, after that he asked me to give him that again. I haven't given him any poultry yet, 'cause they are all hybrid (chickens are originated from India).
So very high quality grass feed beef is our staple food and nothing else. My 5 months old daughter is eating raw beef too. I cure all my illness on beef only. When people complain about beef, I can see where it is coming from. My farmer is completely works against FDA. He has also such a small family farm that he can't give me enough sometimes what I want. He hand picked all organs for me and that takes hours. I order even placenta from him.
So, sea food is definitely not for everyone, but beef which is very high quality, anyone can be benefited by that.
I do agree that once upon a time, sea was the major source of energy and some points it is still like that, but we destroy already our water and we are selling the water now, how shameful!
-
Wow Placenta, I was just wondering about that. Most of the animals I get are boys. I saw a horse placenta. Didn't consider eating it back then, but I remember marveling its beauty in the morning sunlight.
When I get an interesting fish tid-bit from the market I'll post it here.
-
Yeah, that's one reason why I go by what tastes the best, basically using the Instincto approach, rather than what the label says. It just so happens that the fish labeled "sashimi grade" tastes the best to me, but the label means nothing to me. My local market actually has the best quality food I've ever encountered anywhere on the East coast of the USA. They have very high standards. Unfortunately, they also have high prices. LOL
I've had similar experiences on my end, the 'sashimi' grade has happened to taste the best and incidentally be the freshest as well. Some of the best tasting fish I have ever had has been sashimi toro- fatty tuna. It's ridiculously expensive though. Have you ever tried sea urchin? Talk about a strange consistency and I've had my fare share of organs.. It was actually pretty good.
-
No, I 've never tried sea urchin, and every time I go to the local Asian restaurant I ask if they have sashimi toro, but they haven't had it yet, despite it being on the menu. Next time I'll ask them if they have it during a specific season, as you've reinvigorated my curiosity.
-
Real toro is very expensive, and tastes incredible. I've paid $16 for two pieces before, but it was worth it. Oh my goodness. heh.
Fresh sea urchin is absolutely divine. It's not like toro, but I love it. Sea urchin is one of those few raw foods that does NOT get better in ANY way when it is aged. In my opinion, anyway.
-
Fresh sea urchin is absolutely divine. It's not like toro, but I love it. Sea urchin is one of those few raw foods that does NOT get better in ANY way when it is aged. In my opinion, anyway.
Agreed. Fresh sea urchin is hands down some of the most amazing seafood I have ever tasted.
-
Speaking of sea urchin, I agree, wonderful. http://senseeat.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/sea-urchin/ (http://senseeat.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/sea-urchin/)
-
Right on, glad to hear that some of you enjoy the toro and sea urchin like myself! Just wish it was more affordable.
-
Yeah, it stinks how many of the tastiest foods are uber expensive where I am--toro (and haven't even seen it yet), king salmon, cherimoya, raw aged sheep cheese, artisinal mead, etc.