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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: TylerDurden on June 05, 2012, 10:19:33 pm

Title: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: TylerDurden on June 05, 2012, 10:19:33 pm
http://www.naturalnews.com/036076_Aajonus_Vonderplanitz_doctorate_nutrition.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/036076_Aajonus_Vonderplanitz_doctorate_nutrition.html)
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Duke on June 05, 2012, 10:48:22 pm
Ouch!, i am reading it now.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 06, 2012, 12:00:57 am
That's always been a possibility, but what effective difference does it make? Aajonus has still brought the idea of raw animal foods to more people than anyone else to my knowledge. I looked in to his degree too but wasn't able to easily ascertain if it was real, so I assumed it might be fake, but that has nothing to do with the message, which is: eat foods, both animal and plant in their undamaged, natural form to experience the best health. Anyone with common sense would know that those exact foods would vary from person to person, but the idea itself is one of the foundations of true health. That coupled with the work he's doing to secure food freedom with private dairy contracts and buying clubs as well as working on a lawsuit at present demonstrates what he's really about. What do I care if he's accredited at a brainwashing university?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on June 06, 2012, 02:31:14 am
That's always been a possibility, but what effective difference does it make? Aajonus has still brought the idea of raw animal foods to more people than anyone else to my knowledge. I looked in to his degree too but wasn't able to easily ascertain if it was real, so I assumed it might be fake, but that has nothing to do with the message, which is: eat foods, both animal and plant in their undamaged, natural form to experience the best health. Anyone with common sense would know that those exact foods would vary from person to person, but the idea itself is one of the foundations of true health. That coupled with the work he's doing to secure food freedom with private dairy contracts and buying clubs as well as working on a lawsuit at present demonstrates what he's really about. What do I care if he's accredited at a brainwashing university?

We don't care because we know what is truth - but when there is one lie from someone in such a spotlight the assumption is that there is likely more. He makes so many claims about what he has cured that making up a credential can do some real harm to the truths that he did bring forth.

He just lost his credibility and the sad thing is that he was speaking for so many others. That's the problem with gurus. When they are discredited it not only discredits them personally - but what they are teaching. I know it's not fair - but it's just how the human mind tends to work.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 06, 2012, 04:53:08 am
We don't care because we know what is truth - but when there is one lie from someone in such a spotlight the assumption is that there is likely more...

Exactly. I have brought this issue up on another thread in the past. This proves beyond any doubt my long-held suspicion. Very frustrating that someone who takes such great pains to turn themselves into a public face of the raw food movement would do something so foolish. A real PhD isn't that hard to get; I finished mine last summer...

Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: TylerDurden on June 06, 2012, 05:06:48 am
I agree that a nutritionist degree means nothing nowadays as these just peddle the usual lies about how processing is good for humans etc. Still, Aajonus has made some outrageous claims in the past which were obviously fake like the coyote story etc., and those just hurt his credibility.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 06, 2012, 05:52:53 am
Funny how this case develops.

Re Aajonus fake diploma, i never cared for diplomas.  I only care about results.

Aajonus' writings opened my eyes and led me to raw paleo diet.

i keep his 2 books as reference and these helped me heal the intestines of my sick boy... that the candida detected was actually from wrecked intestines, that i use lots of raw eggs to heal diverticulitis.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: LePatron7 on June 06, 2012, 06:30:26 am
It's likely his claims about having had hundred's of cancers and heart attacks is false too.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Duke on June 06, 2012, 04:23:49 pm
His credibility is dead in my opinion.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Ferocious on June 06, 2012, 08:19:38 pm
Whether he has a Phd or not doesn't matter to me. Whether he lied about a lot or not doesn't matter to me. What he teaches seems to make sense and works, and that is what matters to me. I know he's lied about a lot because I don't buy a lot of his outrageous and contradicting stories. I understand why he lies though.

This doesn't hurt his credibility to me.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 06, 2012, 08:46:30 pm
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm all about the truth, and I'd prefer that the people around me stick to it, but if I have to choose Aajonus or No Aajonus, I choose Aajonus! He is literally, solely responsible for the person I am today. He essentially saved my life, I shudder to think of what my life would be like if I hadn't been exposed to his ideas. Damn, it's really fuckin' scary to think of that, I'd be pale, pock marked, sickly and a zombie like the rest of processed amerika. Instead, everyday is an unmitigated blessing, thank you Aaj!

You know what, people who don't like Aajonus can presently fuck themselves. What have THEY done to make the world a better, healthier place? Hmmm?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 06, 2012, 09:22:50 pm
people at infowars really need to get their facts straight on this issue.

RAWESOME BOMBSHELL: The Invalid Case Against Sharon Palmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6ZxXcAHtco#ws)
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 07, 2012, 12:25:00 am
Merged topics.  I think this goes here.

One thing though about the fake PhD is the evidence seems convincing that the PhD title is fake.

Aajonus shouldn't have gotten into that fake PhD thing... some people are just so turned off by that... those who are into diplomas.

I've never cared for my diplomas because I've always been an entrepreneur.

And I never cared for diplomas from web designer employees or editors because I judge them by their actual work.


Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on June 07, 2012, 02:49:46 am
The problem is in the US without that diploma he might have been arrested or sued by now and stopped before he even really got started. Our society is totally into sheets of paper. If he was going to accomplish what he did he HAD to have that piece of paper - and that piece of paper takes a lot of time doing bullshit work that was in his view probably useless when he already understood better - so why NOT make it up? (at least in his thinking - which I get - but still might have been a real bad move)  The coyote thing was his way of making it ok for vegetarians to become carnivores. It wasn't his own mind - it was nature - animals that had him do it. It buys into something a vegetarian would not protest (including himself) and adds a bit of the mythical to his journey. It was probably true in his own mind that coyotes energetically convinced him - like the story of a rabbit jumping on the fire to save Buddha. He had something he felt was so important to impart that he created his own mythology.

In a way it worked. Look at us here! He may be gone tomorrow - but the message still lives.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 07, 2012, 03:55:36 am
I dont understand why people just assume that the coyote story is fake. Ive seen crazier things happen in my life that.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: TylerDurden on June 07, 2012, 04:30:02 am
I dont understand why people just assume that the coyote story is fake. Ive seen crazier things happen in my life that.
I believe another poster linked to a genuine story in which an underwater photographer was given a dead penguin to eat by a concerned leopard seal who thought the guy was too thin. Even so, the whole thing about going into the wilderness for (40?) days reminds me of a similiar story in the Bible re Jesus. His citing of learning wisdom from  a Native American Chieftain is also corny as hell, but it is exactly the sort of thing that the affluent libtards in the Malibu area, who are among his main clients, would be gullible enough to swallow.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: eveheart on June 07, 2012, 07:52:31 am
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm all about the truth, and I'd prefer that the people around me stick to it, but if I have to choose Aajonus or No Aajonus, I choose Aajonus! He is literally, solely responsible for the person I am today. He essentially saved my life....

It seems strange to me, but I feel exactly the same way about Aajonus. The whole time I was reading WWTL, I kept saying to myself, "This guy's a whack-job!" Then, I began eating all raw and sometimes rotten meats and recovered from the brink of being a total invalid. I'm even willing to believe that he saw flies "manifesting" on rock, whatever that means.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 07, 2012, 08:01:57 am
I believe another poster linked to a genuine story in which an underwater photographer was given a dead penguin to eat by a concerned leopard seal who thought the guy was too thin. Even so, the whole thing about going into the wilderness for (40?) days reminds me of a similiar story in the Bible re Jesus. His citing of learning wisdom from  a Native American Chieftain is also corny as hell, but it is exactly the sort of thing that the affluent libtards in the Malibu area, who are among his main clients, would be gullible enough to swallow.

Just because it sounds corny to you doesnt mean it isnt true. I have firsthand experience of the world working in such seemingly absurd and mysterious ways such as this before. The universe has a way of lining things up like this.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 07, 2012, 10:29:52 am
Dolphins have been helping human fishermen for many generations.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2139619/So-long-thanks-fish-Dolphins-help-Brazilian-fisherman-catch-prey-swim-whats-them.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2139619/So-long-thanks-fish-Dolphins-help-Brazilian-fisherman-catch-prey-swim-whats-them.html)

Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 07, 2012, 12:00:56 pm
I just wish he'd quit pushing dairy so hard. 

And the whole fake-PhD thing isn't helping much, either. 

In the long run, though, Aajonus getting discredited isn't going to hurt the raw or paleo movements much.  There's just too much logic and common sense in the concepts we work with for them to lose momentum because of that.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 07, 2012, 09:18:32 pm
I just wish he'd quit pushing dairy so hard. 

And the whole fake-PhD thing isn't helping much, either. 

In the long run, though, Aajonus getting discredited isn't going to hurt the raw or paleo movements much.  There's just too much logic and common sense in the concepts we work with for them to lose momentum because of that.

For real!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 07, 2012, 11:11:23 pm
From Aaj's website..... just reposting for info's purpose not affirming or denying any of it... though as I've said, I stand by Aajonus period.
______________________________________
Is Aajonus for Real? Who Wrote the Books That Bear his Name?
Analyzing Adams’ Tirade About My Honorary Doctorate…
… you would think that my doctorate caused a near cataclysm to planet Earth:

A man identifying himself as Mr. Price(?) from University of St. Andrews in Scotland contacted me in December 2004 offering me an honorary doctorate. He stated that one of its graduates submitted my name to him for my phenomenal work in the field of nutrition and that my diet had reversed his terminal cancers. The school wanted to honor me with the doctorate because my work would also honor the university. He explained that an honorary degree was given for someone who excelled in and expanded knowledge in a particular field. I told him that I was aware of honorary degrees.

I told him that I had been offered two honorary degrees, one from a University in India (1999) and another in Kansas (2000). I told him that I refused both because I did not want to be associated with a nutritional degree from a university because my work defied all knowledge taught about nutrition in universities. He stated that it was the same for Bob Dylan who had received an honorary doctor early that year in June 2004. I mused that Dylan had railed against university knowledge in his songs and had dropped out of college. He said that Bob accepted his degree in person in Scotland at St Andrews in recognition for his outstanding contribution to musical and literary culture. I said that as long as the doctorate stated that it was for my original work in the field of nutrition, I would consider accepting it.

Several weeks passed. Mr. Price called me twice. I accepted the HONORARY doctorate but was asked to submit my books for qualification purposes. I sent him my 2 books We Want To Live, and The Recipe For Living Without Disease. I was even quizzed on some of the material I submitted.

A week later, Mr. Price called and stated that since St. Andrews did not have any nutritional doctorate program, my honorary doctorate would be bestowed on me by its affiliate Richmond University of London. While on the phone, I Yahoo-searched it and found the website showing an established looking university with old-style buildings, students, curricula and degrees. However, when I received the doctorate in August 2005, it was from Richmonds University. I searched for Richmonds University website and it looked very legitimate with all sorts of curricula and degrees, including photos of students, with modern buildings, classrooms and grounds in a city environment.

Just now, I tried to access the website but it no longer exists but it referred me to scholastic programs that looked legitimate. Either the University is now defunct, absorbed by another or other universities, or I was duped. Since the doctorate is now in question, I removed it from my wall. Also today, I have asked someone in London to go to the address that was on the return-address of the envelope that held my degree; I wrote it in my address book along with the London fax number and USA contact number from an email.

If it were a scam to get money, why did they give it to me? That does not make sense. The doctorate clearly states for “…having demonstrated ability by original research magna cum laude – with great distinction in nutrition the degree of Doctor of Philosophy.”  It does NOT state that I took any curriculum at University. It does NOT state that I excelled at academic studies. It is an HONORARY doctorate. I reiterate, “…HAVING DEMONSTRATED ABILITY BY ORIGINAL RESEARCH IN NUTRITION…” The most common research doctorate is the Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.). In my case, philosophy of nutrition. Mine is NOT an academic degree. It is not a doctor of medicine or doctor of health sciences.

Is my doctorate false?  Did someone set me up with a scam? Any forger can repeat someone’s name that appears on a real document. Notice that the degrees that are compared to mine are very different. Why would there be that much difference if they came from the same place? Is my doctorate not a fake and theirs is? Would we expect to find different names of a faculty on a real document as apposed to a forgery if any of the faculty members were the same?

I am not in possession of an academic degree. I have not flaunted any curriculum transcripts that I do not possess. I have not applied for any job or government position with it. So, why all of the rant about those issues?

I was proud of receiving recognition for my work but the degree is not my work.  Interesting fact, as soon as I received the honorary doctorate in 2005, I told James Stewart.  Without seeing it or asking about it, he laughed and said that it was a fake. Why did he say that? I helped save his life and put him in business. However,

I did not take it too deeply to heart because Stewart often directed ill-remarks at me and others.

But who incited Adams to investigate the doctorate and distract from Stewart’s and Palmer’s crimes? That is an interesting question but not at real issue of the fraudulent food. There are many people in government and medicine who would love to discredit me. However, was there a crime? If so, which was/were committed and by whom?

I was and am the same individual with or without an HONORARY Ph.D. My work stands for itself and my reputation is unblemished by thorough evidence. See testimonials at www.WeWant2Live.com (http://www.WeWant2Live.com) . The degree is not my work. The validity of the doctorate is relatively inconsequential. My patients who report to me that they are now well instead of dying, crippled, health improving or no longer diseased are the joys in my life. I request that as many as possible state how my work has improved their lives on Facebook and Tweeter.

I need more evidence other than the word of someone I no longer trust for truth in reporting that my honorary doctorate is not valid. Mine may be valid even through those posted by Adams are admitted frauds. Just because there are counterfeit $100 bills does not mean that they are all counterfeit. Is there anyone who can find the people who know anything about Richmonds University? I suspect we should follow the money.
healthfully and appreciatively,
aajonus
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 07, 2012, 11:44:51 pm
is this a recent post by him?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Duke on June 08, 2012, 12:12:30 am
is this a recent post by him?

ofcourse it is. It's his response to the accusations by Adams.

What do you guys think of Mike Adams, is he an honest journalist, or a guy with an agenda?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 08, 2012, 12:35:37 am
Im not sure. he seems to be more on the vegan side of things. Im pretty suspicious of him especially after this.

To me it seems like mike adams and james stewart became butt buddies and that mike just believes everything he says because he has "patriot street cred" for going to jail and now mike is just pushing his side of the story. Im much more convinced by aajonuses side of the story however.

Im very upset with this report. Its the worst thing I have ever seen infowars do.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 08, 2012, 01:01:03 am
Infowars is a scaremongering propaganda machine. As soon as I saw Adams link up with Jones, I knew I wasn't imagining that NaturalNew's is kinda a sensationist tabloid for the health world. It's funny, because I've thought, especially in the last year, that Adams it beginning to lose his credibility because he is overblowing stories and even twisting them a bit. Stories that were bad enough as they were, he'd then try and juice them a little more. And I was there thinking, "this guy is beginning to discredit our movement" plus like you said, he's pretty much a raw vegan and this is evident in his unequivocal "holier than thou" attitude. Don't get me wrong, the mass public are a bunch of walking zombie fucktards, but I used to be one of those fucktards, and I really didn't know any better, I was literally programmed to be braindead, just like most of us once were. So to use a holier than thou attitude with them is kind of silly, save it for people who you try to wake up, and have absolutely heard your message and the logic, then reject it, those are the true fucktards.

Anyway, the whole thing is ugly, and really has little to do with this movement, which is about health, peace and love and sustainability IMHO.

And yes, I got that off a facebook Primal Diet group and it came from his website.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 08, 2012, 01:02:25 am
I suspect they're all scammers, including and especially Aajonus Vanderplanitz. Yeah, he does advocate ideas that some of us have found useful, but we're foolish to continue holding him high given that he's dug himself into such a deep hole regarding his credentials and trustworthiness. Time for AV to enjoy a downward spiral and hit rock bottom. Hopefully he enjoys a soft landing, maybe in a few years he'll start being honest with people and stop building his business on silly stories.

Administrators might consider removing the "Primal Diet" section so he doesn't drag this website down with him.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 08, 2012, 01:16:57 am
I dont find almost everything infowars does to be sensationalist. I mean we really do have people getting thrown in jail over raw milk, we really do have a government controlled by those who want to reduce the population, the tsa really is radiating people and molesting babies, and world elites really would like to see almost all of us dead and plan in secret to commit these things.

Im not saying they dont sometimes make things seem worse than they are but they also sometimes make things seem better than they are as well.

My biggest problem is really mike adams and his veganism. I think the whole infowars team is getting behind mike more out of ignorance than any bad intent.

I also wonder if mikes raw vegan/vegetarianism was reason for his attacks on aajonus. Iv noticed that raw vegans such as durianrider and others make a point of attacking aajonus and he has become somewhat of a target for these people.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: eveheart on June 08, 2012, 01:20:40 am
Our society is totally into sheets of paper. If he was going to accomplish what he did he HAD to have that piece of paper - and that piece of paper takes a lot of time doing bullshit work that was in his view probably useless when he already understood better - so why NOT make it up?

If legitimate, those "sheets of paper" represent that a person has demonstrated something to others who have knowledge in the field being demonstrated. In order to earn my "sheets of paper," I studied and performed certain skills to a certain standard. It says so right on my "sheets of paper." There was no bullshit work involved. If;, you say, a person understands something that can be demonstrated and certified on a diploma, why would it be necessary to make one up?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 08, 2012, 01:50:48 am
having that sheet of paper for me indicates being brainwashed into a thoroughly disproven set of beliefs as well as having a license and inclination towards dealing some of the most dangerous drugs known to man.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 08, 2012, 02:13:12 am
having that sheet of paper for me indicates being brainwashed into a thoroughly disproven set of beliefs as well as having a license and inclination towards dealing some of the most dangerous drugs known to man.

What troll said, the papers mean nothing in this society except that you're a good little plebe who jumped through a few annoying hoops.

Troll, the ideas infowars talks about are true, america is a corporation, we are being destroyed systematically, our freedoms are being taken very surely every minute that congress and the whitehouse are in power. But fear is NOT the answer. There is fear and love, protection or growth. You can't be doing both at the same time. So fuck fear, take back your heritage, humans are gods, but very feeble, amnesiac gods. You can move worlds if you want to, whining about how powerless we are isn't doing a fuck of good.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 08, 2012, 02:40:22 am
Yeah but alex is constantly talking about how the nwo is going to be defeated and I agree with him.

I like Alan Wattsanalysis more anyway. Alex Jones just really entertains me for some reason and that might not be a good thing. I love watching him get really worked up.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on June 08, 2012, 03:22:08 am
I dont understand why people just assume that the coyote story is fake. Ive seen crazier things happen in my life that.

I watched his face when he was telling the story. It was the first video I saw of him telling his story and I noticed when watching that he flashed micro-expressions that made me note at the time that he was probably lying about the coyotes.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on June 08, 2012, 03:29:52 am
If legitimate, those "sheets of paper" represent that a person has demonstrated something to others who have knowledge in the field being demonstrated. In order to earn my "sheets of paper," I studied and performed certain skills to a certain standard. It says so right on my "sheets of paper." There was no bullshit work involved. If;, you say, a person understands something that can be demonstrated and certified on a diploma, why would it be necessary to make one up?

When Aajonus knew more than the teachers and would have to learn all sorts of stuff that he knew causes disease - like eat your wheaties - that's what I mean by bullshit.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 08, 2012, 06:14:17 am
I just wish he'd quit pushing dairy so hard. 

And the whole fake-PhD thing isn't helping much, either. 

In the long run, though, Aajonus getting discredited isn't going to hurt the raw or paleo movements much.  There's just too much logic and common sense in the concepts we work with for them to lose momentum because of that.

He also pushes tomatoes.

I am allergic to tomatoes.  My son too.

But i think these allergies are the responsibility of the individual.

I'm satisfied with Aajonus' reply.

Just as I'm happy GCB of instincto fame actually took the time to post here.

Just as im happy to learn wai diet wai is a man.


Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 08, 2012, 09:10:26 am
http://www.naturalnews.com/036076_Aajonus_Vonderplanitz_doctorate_nutrition.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/036076_Aajonus_Vonderplanitz_doctorate_nutrition.html)
That's no news. This was brought out before in this forum. We knew that his doctorate was phony. The rest of the world is just starting to catch up with us. Thanks to Tyler and others, we are not overly enamored of ANY guru. I hope that anyone who is surprised will ask themselves why they bought into the hype so easily and commit to becoming more skeptical in the future.

Exactly. I have brought this issue up on another thread in the past. This proves beyond any doubt my long-held suspicion. Very frustrating that someone who takes such great pains to turn themselves into a public face of the raw food movement would do something so foolish. A real PhD isn't that hard to get; I finished mine last summer...
Congrats!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 08, 2012, 09:55:39 am
Degrees are bullshit, except perhaps in the area of hard sciences.

Nutrition is not a hard science, especially at the level of ignorance that even the most knowledgeable nutrition professors are at.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: eveheart on June 08, 2012, 12:19:26 pm
The first diploma-mill degree I ever saw was on the wall of a self-styled nutritionist in the 1980's. Her PhD was in the field of hypnosis  l). She was an older woman with the body somewhere between chubby and flabby, who insisted (as she pounded her fists against her distended gut) that "This is all muscle!"

Reminds me of the old story about the Reverend Minister and one of his parishioners - - -

Parishioner: Reverend, what do all those letters after your name mean?

Reverend: Well, you know what B.S. is, right?

Parishioner: Why, yessir, I reckon I do.

Reverend: Well then, M.S. means "more of the same" and Ph.D. means "piled higher and deeper!"
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: afroza on June 08, 2012, 07:50:54 pm





I'm satisfied with Aajonus' reply.


Me too. The man has been attacked so many times before, as anyone who went public like him would. That's why so many of us RAFers are still hiding in the closets. Aajonus is a brave advocate for health, no question about that for me. I remember listening to a webradio interview with him about the Swineflu hoax and thinking "Oh, my good, they will kill him now, for sure". Not long after did I read about the forced vaccination done to him. Anyone who questions Big Pharma, Governments and other Big Ass Companies are living dangerously these days. Even if you are just a raw milk farmer, as we have seen. Wouldn't be surprised if the fake PhD was given to him with the intent of doing him harm in the future. And he was naive enough to accept it, as he shouldn't have.

As for the coyote story; That critique is just strange. How anyone but him can know what he experienced then and there is beyond me. It's a reasonable enough story to me, I have lived amongst animals in the Himalayas and they have given me stranger gifts than that at times. The difference is that I am not ready to share it boldly with the world as AV does. Thankfully, though, some of us are that bold. That way this important information about healthy foods have spread.
I am meeting Aaron's in July in Finland. I will see what he says about the whole thing if I get the chance.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 08, 2012, 08:23:45 pm
>>  I have lived amongst animals in the Himalayas and they have given me stranger gifts than that at times.

I would certainly love to read about these experiences.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 08, 2012, 08:53:44 pm
me too.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 08, 2012, 08:59:05 pm
Yeah, I concur with Afroza, I don't think I can really relate the strange experiences I've had with animals, because usually it's during a mushroom trip or when I've been wandering in the forest pretty stoned, so my memory is kind of dreamy and foggy, but I've had some seriously close and seriously strange experiences with animals.  They respond big time to your energy/body language, and if that energy is loving, or child like, or without a schedule, the animals will interact with you, not as a human, but as part of their world. That's why I urge people to spend time meditating in nature, because you'll be sitting at your secret spot, practicing a sense awareness, and when your brainwaves/energy level are at baseline, you'll look up and see a fox standing a few feet away staring at you, or you'll have a buck walk right by you 10 feet away, or a family of mink play in the water in a trout stream while you sit and giggle at the sheer pleasure they seem to derive from it. Or birds will land on you, or I remember one time I was super baked next to the factory I used to work at just when I went RVAF, which bordered a nature preserve (awesome, I know...) And I went for a walk down the path and all of a sudden I was covered in painted butterflies and they were kissing me! That is they wanted some mineral or compound on my skin, just the same though, to be covered in 10 of these delicate little flying pieces of origami is quite the experience. They didn't care if I moved around, they were content to sit on me, it was like having a living coat on.

But, if you wanted to share Afroza, I too would love to hear any stories about close encounters with wildlife, those have been some of my favorite experiences in life, such a gift to be able to see these animals up close, interact with them instead of just seeing them running to and fro on the freeway.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: afroza on June 08, 2012, 11:16:26 pm
My time in the wild involve other people, my husband, and to some extent my children but other locals from the area as well. I am not comfortable sharing because it may affect others. And I cherish that time so immensely, I somehow feel that if I analysed it much it would loose it's magic to me. But this forum feels like a safe haven so if I were to write something about that time in my life I might just post it here. But let's just say that I have experienced animals offering game and showing where to find clean water for example. I have seen people living with animals in coexistence to an extent I did not think was possible, but this were persons engaged in spiritual practises and not people living a "normal" life.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 09, 2012, 12:01:32 am
>>  I have lived amongst animals in the Himalayas and they have given me stranger gifts than that at times.

I would certainly love to read about these experiences.

GS and Troll, you might check in to books by or recommended by Jon Young, he gives some anecdotal experiences in there. He also recommends a book by someone, I think up in BC canada, but the name escapes me at the moment, I'll have to listen to the audio course again (it's been a while anyway) then I'll get back to you with the author and title. I think it was a guy in BC caretaking someone else' forest and because of that, because of his mindset, attitude and body language energy, he's got buck's and bear and other animals just hanging out with him practically like family WITHOUT feeding them. It's just a by product of caring for the land in such a way that you become linked with it and the animals, after a time, get to know you (yes, they recognize you individually just like we all recognize each other individually), know that not only are you not a threat, but you're also a very loving, nurturing person and they're just drawn to you, much like we're drawn to people in our lives who are caring and nurturing to us!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on June 09, 2012, 04:09:01 am

As for the coyote story; That critique is just strange. How anyone but him can know what he experienced then and there is beyond me. It's a reasonable enough story to me, I have lived amongst animals in the Himalayas and they have given me stranger gifts than that at times. The difference is that I am not ready to share it boldly with the world as AV does. Thankfully, though, some of us are that bold.

What I said had nothing to do with whether the story was possible or not - it had to do with the science and art of lie detection from watching someone's facial movements. The way his eyes moved, the change in his expression, vocal speed increase, increase and change in head movements and the way his mouth moved were all quite different in the part where he was telling the coyote story than other parts where it looked to me like he was just telling his life story rather than a made up story. Eye movements can indicate if you are remembering something or if you are making it up as you tell it or trying to remember a made up story.

Again though - I don't care if he made up that story to himself or to others, or it was a dream, hallucination or a confusion embracing it and telling it in order to make it ok to eat "the easter bunny" after being an ethical vegetarian. We all have to do what we have to do to deal with ourselves and the essence of his gift to us is still intact. I don't doubt that what he said happened to him "could" happen.  I do believe he went through most of the horrendous things he said he did btw. The way he said most everything else was fairly congruent. The part that was absolutely true was that he was abused as a child because he flashed an expression of disdain almost imperceptibly as he was saying it and he jutted out his chin in anger.

All it would take is a real professional lie detection person to tell you. I'm an amateur - but usually right. It's one of my hobbies.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 09, 2012, 05:29:40 am
Whether or not it's accurate, that's pretty cool Dorothy, I love studying body language and neuro linguistic programming, fascinating, and part of cultivating one's own awareness also, how we carry ourselves and how we behave.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: afroza on June 09, 2012, 06:13:57 am
I didn't refer to your doubts about the coyote story, Dorothy, but rather that it seamed to be one of the "charges" against Aajonus´credibility coming from the people trying to discredit him in media. I totally get that they would come down hard on the fake PhD, but to criticise his personal experiences or rather his interpretation of events in his past is just strange to me.
Whether or not it's accurate, that's pretty cool Dorothy, I love studying body language and neuro linguistic programming, fascinating, and part of cultivating one's own awareness also, how we carry ourselves and how we behave.
I agree!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on June 09, 2012, 07:03:27 am
I didn't refer to your doubts about the coyote story, Dorothy, but rather that it seamed to be one of the "charges" against Aajonus´credibility coming from the people trying to discredit him in media. I totally get that they would come down hard on the fake PhD, but to criticise his personal experiences or rather his interpretation of events in his past is just strange to me.

Totally Afroza. Doubting someone just on words alone in my opinion is hubris - thinking that only what you are capable of experiencing is all that there is to be experienced. In fact, we are all small when compared to the possible. 
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on June 09, 2012, 07:06:27 am
Whether or not it's accurate, that's pretty cool Dorothy, I love studying body language and neuro linguistic programming, fascinating, and part of cultivating one's own awareness also, how we carry ourselves and how we behave.

It is fun isn't it?! :D
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 09, 2012, 09:17:03 am
http://www.wewant2live.com/rawesome-data-comes-to-light-poisonous-chickens-eggs-etc/ (http://www.wewant2live.com/rawesome-data-comes-to-light-poisonous-chickens-eggs-etc/)

aajonuses response.

His response so destroys adams' allegations its not even funny. Mike adams is a joke to me at this point after reading this response.  AAjonus has a ton of facts and evidence here while adams just had embarrassing almost tabloid style reporting.

This is making me think theres some weird dealings going on between adams and stewart or maybe even adams and the feds. who knows tho, all I know is that adams has lost pretty much all credibility in my book even though I agree with so many things he discusses.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 10, 2012, 03:44:59 am
Mike Adams is a joke. No argument there. But Aajonus Vonderplanitz is also a joke. And a fraud.

Both men have offered a few good ideas, but in the end their behavior, whether it be turning to goofy tabloid reporting with fear-mongering 'internet news networks' or buying fake credentials and inventing guru origin stories, give them the appearance of back-stabbing snake-oil salesmen. We'd be best to let them settle into the dustbin of history.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 10, 2012, 09:40:08 am
In all the time I've seen you posting eric I've seen little tangible evidence of very much wisdom, so it's terrifically ironic, but also completely natural that you would come to such a conclusion. And that is just fine!

I'm guessing you're ignorant of the work that Aajonus has done and is continuing up to this very moment for your food freedom, in addition to the many many many many people he's helped health wise.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 10, 2012, 10:55:21 am
This whole incident of Mike Adams getting his feet wet in this Anti Aajonus tirade is not good for Mike.
Mike does his good thing and I'll forgive him for this.

Aajonus shouldn't be displaying that duped PhD title too if the university is exposed as discredited.

Aajonus and Adams are both good people and are both our allies in health and health freedom.  Let's try making them both save face after this.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 10, 2012, 10:16:30 pm
I find Eric's posts to generally be some of the best I've seen on this forum. We would benefit from more posters like him. He already noted that he read Aajonus' books, so I don't know why someone would guess that Eric was ignorant of AV's work. Tyler has also noted that AV is dodgy and reported negative results from following AV's advice, IIRC, so Eric is hardly alone in critiquing AV at this forum. I don't see anything wrong with reporting the bad as well as the good about AV, particularly when done constructively, with supporting evidence. It provides a fuller perspective. This is the raw Paleo diet forum, not the Aajonus Vonderplanitz devotional forum.

On the other hand, I don't feel particularly compelled to target Aajonus, as his following seems rather small, most of them seem to be faring rather well, he is one of the few gurus to talk about the benefits of raw animal foods (though there are much better ones, like Denise Minger), and his stories, claims and advice are often so bizarre that I doubt he will ever be hugely influential.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 10, 2012, 10:34:44 pm
What does his book have to do with what he's currently doing to protect our rights to access clean, raw food? Food contracts, law suit, raising awareness, participating in rallies (vernon hershberger).

Who is right 100% of the time? No one that I've met, and not me!  Aajonus is extreme with dairy IMO, but the foundation of his theory is the key to true health, and forgive me, but other than natives, who don't do it as a concept, who else has been eating raw animal guts for 40 years and then promoting that idea for a good portion of that time? His name is aajonus....sort of, lol.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 10, 2012, 10:38:48 pm
You also noted "in addition to the many many many many people he's helped health wise." Did AV's books not play a role in that?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 10, 2012, 10:47:51 pm
Ok then, forget the book. Jesus H farkin Christ
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 10, 2012, 10:49:15 pm
Or really don't forget the book, it's a gold mine of info, especially to someone who's never considered conscious eating before.

I'm sure eric has indeed read the book, pretty sure that's not what I was calling him ignorant for.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 10, 2012, 10:52:42 pm
OK, thanks for that clarification, and perhaps Eric can fill us in on whether he's aware of the work Aajonus does to promote accessibility to raw milk, the benefits some have reported in this forum by following AV's advice, etc. Maybe he's also not completely ignorant of that, or whatever you were referring to?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 10, 2012, 11:43:13 pm
Iv tried everything aajonus reccomended and did it all for a certain amount of time. Now I find that about 70-80 percent of what his books say works for me and thats what im currently doing. 70-80 percent of things working for me is a number I consider very high after all of the other diet gurus of looked into.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 12, 2012, 02:44:43 am
I am very aware of the work Aajonus does to promote the availability of raw milk. Although I applaud him for that, it doesn't get him off the hook for his fake PhD and fantastical stories. Leaders in any movement need to carry themselves with a high degree of dignity, lest they become a burden to their movements. Aajonus Vonderplanitz is becoming quite a burden.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Ferocious on June 12, 2012, 06:24:28 am
I don't see why his fake Phd and "fantastical" stories mean so much to you...lol. People lie all the time to benefit themselves or others, I know I do. The fact is the information he provides is good and helpful. He only faked his Phd and apparently made up stories so that he would attract regular people to his work. I don't understand why people go so crazy and perceive lying as some horrible, awful thing. It makes no sense. He lied for a reason obviously, not to be an "EVIL" person! It's not like a Phd actually means anything anyway. lol
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 12, 2012, 07:12:05 am
I never claimed he lied to be an 'evil' person. His fake PhD and fantastical stories bother me because he makes us all look ridiculous.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 12, 2012, 07:44:26 am
And a PhD might not mean anything to you, but it means a lot to some people. It obviously meant something to Aajonus, otherwise he wouldn't have paid serious cash to buy one from a diploma mill. It also means something to me, because I labored for four years to earn a real one from an accredited university. And it means something to my consulting clients, who pay me top dollar to work for them.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 12, 2012, 08:54:52 am
Did anyone check out the recording or transcript in the story update? If so, what is your take on it?
Quote
This story has been updated:

Update #1 - A secret audio recordings has emerged that shows Aajonus Vonderplanitz demanding $500,000 from Sharon Palmer and all assets from Rawesome Foods (James Stewart), further supporting his financial motive behind his actions. Full report at:
http://www.naturalnews.com/036123_Aajonus_Vonderplanitz_Sharon_Palmer_secret_audio.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/036123_Aajonus_Vonderplanitz_Sharon_Palmer_secret_audio.html)
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 12, 2012, 12:29:45 pm
that audio proved absolutely nothing...
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 12, 2012, 12:36:38 pm
Supposedly from Aaj:

Hi,
The all of the facts of the matter have not been available to you. Let me clarify.

At that time, James Stewart and the other 2 owners of the property on which our food club Rawesome operated, were being charged with Building and Safety Code violations, not milk or food issues. The property was not the food club no more than the land on which a mall sits, is the individuals shops. The shops are the shops and the land on which they sit is separate from a legal perspective.

Although I was not required to help with the property, I advised James Stewart, who also managed our food club, to get a former Los Angeles County Building and Safety Inspector to inspect the property to ensure that there was no fire or other hazard on the property that could affect anyone outside of the club, that is the public. He failed to do it and then wanted Right To Choose Healthy Food members to pay for his building and safety problems on the property.

The funds that I collected for Right To Choose Healthy Food, Trust ("RTCHF") was collected to sue any government agent/agency for food infringement. That was stated on my appeal for funds. I did not state anywhere that those funds would be used to defend James Stewart and his partners for their separate property problems.

Because of James Stewart's' many deceits, especially his illegal taping into the cities' sewer system without permit and illegal dumping into it for at least 3 years (dire felonies), he refused to be cooperative in any suit that RTCHF would make against governments for food-infringement issues. What is your opinion? Should RTCHF have spent its money to sue government for food-infringements or for James Stewart's' building and safety violations?

In fact, James Stewart did not pay Right To Choose Healthy Food, Trust (RTCHF)/Rawesome membership fees to RTCHF for all of the 5 years he managed Rawesome under RTCHF. That was about $25,000 yearly. That equals about $125,000. Yet RTCHF defended him and won for him throughout those years when government agents cited him for food violations. James Stewart, pay RTCHF the $125,000 you owe RTCHF.

Sharon Palmer also collected RTCHF membership fees and did not pay them to RTCHF for one year.

I hope that this resolves the issue.
healthfully and appreciatively,
aajonus

Please post my response wherever you can. Thank you.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 12, 2012, 01:29:09 pm
I am very aware of the work Aajonus does to promote the availability of raw milk. Although I applaud him for that, it doesn't get him off the hook for his fake PhD and fantastical stories. Leaders in any movement need to carry themselves with a high degree of dignity, lest they become a burden to their movements. Aajonus Vonderplanitz is becoming quite a burden.

Lol, who cares about the fake ID? His knowledge isn't predicated on having a phd, no one was coerced in to taking his advice on the basis of him having a phd. Stop passing the blame. People like you have no concept of personal responsibility, which is endemic in this country especially. Cheri promotes it when he says people shouldn't have handguns, society affirms it when we hand out welfare, it is again affirmed with every little sign and warning label on each piece of junk we buy from the store. We affirm it with million dollar law suits because a lady spills coffee on herself.

We're not going to be able to be the gods and creators that we truly are until everyone takes complete responsibility for their reality.

It is that type of behaviour that has gotten us to where we are today. People just doing whatever the drug dealer/butcher (so called doctors) tells them to. So they can get sicker and sicker. Think hard before you wish away one of the precious few points of light we have doing the work that everyone should be, and without getting rich.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 12, 2012, 09:33:16 pm
Thoth, your most recent post is nonsensical enough that I wonder if you were high on something when you typed it.

The post previous where Aajonus attempts to defend himself is a bit out of context. Is he defending his statements in the snippet of audio that's been circulating? If so, it seems like his defense attempts to divert focus from his apparent extortion attempt ($500,000 from Palmer) to issues of Stewart paying dues to a trust fund he apparently controls, an issue not even mentioned in the audio clip. If his defense is not directed at the audio snippet, then I don't have enough context to know what to make of it.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on June 12, 2012, 09:41:58 pm
I'm sure you are confounded eric! But that's ok, you'll get over it! And I t'weren't high, but I'm getting there!

I don't know what's what here with this situation, but from the observable portion of this affair, I have not seen any foul play from Aaj, whereas from what I can tell, at least Sharon was charged with defrauding the elderly at some point, so call me skeptical if she's the victim she's being made out to be.  C'mon eric, supposedly you're in to the old ways (superficially and leftbrained albeit), track this shit brah!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Eric on June 12, 2012, 10:25:29 pm
I'm not trying to defend Sharon Palmer or James Stewart. It sounds to me like they're involved in finagling of their own, and if they've violated the law they should be dealt with in accordance with the law.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on June 13, 2012, 12:44:37 am
Thoth, your most recent post is nonsensical enough that I wonder if you were high on something when you typed it.

The post previous where Aajonus attempts to defend himself is a bit out of context. Is he defending his statements in the snippet of audio that's been circulating? If so, it seems like his defense attempts to divert focus from his apparent extortion attempt ($500,000 from Palmer) to issues of Stewart paying dues to a trust fund he apparently controls, an issue not even mentioned in the audio clip. If his defense is not directed at the audio snippet, then I don't have enough context to know what to make of it.

that audio snippet doesnt deserve a defense. It was completely pointless to post that audio snippet since it doesnt incriminate aajonus in any way.

Please explain which part of that audio incriminated aajonus in any way because I dont see it.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: DopeDivinity on July 04, 2012, 04:24:51 am
I wouldn't doubt if Mike Adams does have his own vegan agenda, considering I remember reading an article where he said MeatEaters have been proven to be stupider than vegetarians, and that he'd never eat meat for fear of being associated with WifeBeating Alcoholics.

Which makes me realize... I hate Mike Adams. And I also hate Aajonus Vonderplanitz. And I hate everyone on this forum, and I hate myself.

I think we should just stop judging eachother for our percieved flaws take a look at our positive sides. Someone always has to be made the enemy. The biggest enemy here is Ignorance.

If we didn't all have bugs up our butts, couldn't we feel Unconditional Love for Aajonus and Mike Adams and whoever else, despite their percieved flaws?

That's what I'm going to try to do... despite the fact that I've been programmed to be a HateRobot

"Niggas gon' hate you for whatever you do" - 2pac

I've had enough hating
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 04, 2012, 09:32:59 pm
I wouldn't doubt if Mike Adams does have his own vegan agenda, considering I remember reading an article where he said MeatEaters have been proven to be stupider than vegetarians, and that he'd never eat meat for fear of being associated with WifeBeating Alcoholics.

Which makes me realize... I hate Mike Adams. And I also hate Aajonus Vonderplanitz. And I hate everyone on this forum, and I hate myself.

I think we should just stop judging eachother for our percieved flaws take a look at our positive sides. Someone always has to be made the enemy. The biggest enemy here is Ignorance.

If we didn't all have bugs up our butts, couldn't we feel Unconditional Love for Aajonus and Mike Adams and whoever else, despite their percieved flaws?

That's what I'm going to try to do... despite the fact that I've been programmed to be a HateRobot

"Niggas gon' hate you for whatever you do" - 2pac

I've had enough hating

 8) Way Cool  O0
HateRobot no more no more.
They think they can make me hate by putting chemtrails in the air, educating, advertising, the economy, war, denying me access to good food etc etc. ... and generally hating on me - but I too protest, a loving protest! 
 
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: mhikl on July 17, 2012, 06:18:54 am
When I saw Mr Vonderplanitz on The Doctors I did not at first catch his name. My impression was that he came across as a bit of a nut, for he seemed to lack common sense and seemed, at times, to be out of control. What went on before the show in consultation with the Doctors or their representative, may have affected his behaviour. But surely he must have been aware of what he was walking into and of the very real possibility of a planned agenda that was not in his best interests.

His actions and his statements surprised me, and I was familiar with the idea of raw eating. To choose chicken as the meat to eat in front of an audience who would be repulsed by the thought much less at the sight of the act, was a blatant challenge to those conventional doctors, their agenda aside, who would have no choice but to take him to task. Such could be seen as insanity. He practically asked for and definitely dared the responses he got and he should have been aware that reality shows have to impact their audiences to keep up their ratings. Such purport to be in the interest of information, but showmanship for audience reaction always trumps good reporting.

To come out to that audience, that most likely supports heroic medicine, with the statement about bacteria theory was the final nail to his coffin. Not having a quick response to the concerns over a newborn's health was the final shove into burial with an audience made up of mothers.  In an audience that size, and to a huge home and YouTube audience as well, there must be some who gravitate towards cooked meat and fat. Those were the ones who might be interested to search out the raw diet. Now possibly many will be less inclined to do so. For all those who got turned on to this life style by Aajonus, what multiplier might it be that are turned off by the appearance of fanaticism.

Poor judgement is where his crime sits. The movement is bigger than Aajonus. There are many in every movement that are left for dead along the journey to acceptance, many not by their own accord; and should Aajonus be such a casualty, then some of the blame rests on his poor judgement.

However, it is our duty to learn the truth and share the facts with naysayers as best we can. But we are not without resources. Fortunately, we have the mouth (and that face, the hair, those eyes) of Dean Ornish on our side in any debate with the fanatic vegan. It has been reported that his studies cannot be duplicated, which is a little tricky in the field of science.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 17, 2012, 07:42:28 am
lol M, Aajonus has brought this raw diet to so many people that the above statements are laughable. If he cured even one person of any kind of chronic malaise or digestive issues, that would be enough, but his work has helped countless people. Come back to reality for a second.

With that said, I didn't care for the way he carried himself on that show, he really could have done a lot better....but with THAT said, getting up in front of so many people and on tv is intimidating and I'm sure he did the best he could under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: mhikl on July 17, 2012, 08:50:52 am
Thoth, Aajonus walked into an ambush, however it was to go. We have no idea what went on before the show but I wouldn't be surprised if some shenanigans and motive or agenda didn't happen to set him off his guard. We both would agree, I suspect, that those Treaters of Symptoms would have no regard for whatever he had to say.  Notice the condescending comments from the tall blond MD to him at the end.

I would hope in future that Aajonus picks his forums more carefully or at least goes with support. I suspect he is an man of emotion (I don't mean that as a disparagement) and he became nervous.

But Aajonus is a worthy warrior and towers over snivelling Ornish - no offence meant to snivellers.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 18, 2012, 03:17:35 am
I disagree with you Michael regarding that show. He made it very clear that he cured himself with the diet and demonstrated in front of millions that it does him no harm. Even the doctor said that it didn't hurt AV, but no one else do it. Anyone with half a brain would watch that and think - wait a minute! Obviously what those doctors are saying is not the truth for him. Hey, I have cancer and he cured himself. Why can't I? I have this or that, maybe it can help me like it did him? It didn't kill him - it cured him. If someone has a desire to eat that way but social conditioning stops them - AV gave them the ok and SHOWED  how to do it. Maybe he didn't pick the chicken or bring the food. I doubt it actually. But he did grab that egg and eat it. I thought that was GREAT!

For anyone to come off as well as AV in an interview like that with so much hostility directed at him I think is impressive. I would have collapsed into a tiny ball of fear. AV kept on talking in the personal "I" which was also impressive - not making general statements implying that everyone should eat that way. He told his own story - which made it hard for the doctors to argue with.

I would challenge anyone to do better. He got a gigantic audience and got the message out, but bigger than that he stepped up to the dragon and stood toe to toe. Doctors are the category of people that did him tremendous harm and yet he got onto a show with a panel of doctors with an audience that love them. That took guts.

Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: mhikl on July 19, 2012, 01:12:42 pm
Dorothy, I can see the converted being impressed, but I think to the unconvinced and especially those who may not even be aware that raw is possible and doesn't kill, I think a gentler approach could have been made.

But I have come round to the man after seeing a number of YouTube videos by him. He is actually very gentle which makes me even more suspicious that he did not feel comfortable with the pompous establishment and their condescension. His may be a traumatised spirit.  Such a horrific early life, I feel bowed.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 20, 2012, 12:41:12 am
He did choose to go in front of the most hostile crowd and program he could possibly have chosen. Being gentle there was almost an impossibility. I wonder why he chose to do it? To confront his dragons? To reach the most number of people?

The old adage that all exposure is good exposure?

No one is going to be able to convince most people that eating raw meat is ok except if they see someone do it and not die - and even then most are STILL going to be angry.

There is no one that is going to be convinced of anything unless they already have a generally open mind. None of us will. People are very easily brainwashed and very few think for themselves. We're ONLY trying to reach the people who already are unique people and help them - at least that's the way that I see it. Maybe he sees it the same way? 

Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Chris on July 22, 2012, 02:30:46 pm
Theres nothing wrong with stating your opinion and beliefs in this world. But, when you feel like you have to make up and falsify a degree so you can be taken seriously. Well that's just plain wrong! I'm sure he felt like he had to do it, in order for people to take notice of him and take him seriously at the sametime. Heck, I could state my own opinions and theory's too. But, most people wouldn't take notice, or give me the time of day. But, if you put Dr. , and Professor in front of my name, people take notice. I agree with a fellow poster, that titles are subjective. Look at all the people who have Nutrition Degrees out there preaching what we should eat and what we shouldn't (rubbish). There are people in this forum that have more knowledge about nutrition than they ever will. I don't care how many credentials they have, when your wrong your wrong. There preaching what they have learned in school and growing up, talk about being brainwashed. IMO, the new/old food pyramid is so flawed beyond belief! "The so called Experts"? GMAFB! You maybe able to deny a person connected to this diet (Aajonus), but you can never deny this diet, and the effects it has had with all who have practiced it. He did bring attention to eating raw meats, and with that, he has help numerous people see the possibility's with a raw meat diet, that they otherwise wouldn't have. There's no denying that!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 23, 2012, 03:34:31 am
So Chris - do you think the ends justifies the means in this case?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Chris on July 23, 2012, 04:15:38 am
Dorothy, what do you mean? Please elaborate.......
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 23, 2012, 04:28:56 am
Well, you say that you understand why AV did what he did, that degrees don't necessarily mean much when it comes to nutrition, that AV has spread the word and done a lot of good but wouldn't have been able to be taken seriously or done so if he didn't make up a degree yet at the same time what he did was wrong in lying about the degree.

Did the end (meaning doing a lot of people a lot of good by spreading the word about raw foods) justify (make ok, right,  positive, good) his means (lying about having a degree).

Some people believe that the end never justifies the means (one should never do something intrinsically wrong to accomplish a greater good) and some people believe that to do a small wrong to achieve a great good is justifiable and believe that one should always be looking at the highest good, the overall outcome, the big picture and if a small lie has to be thrown in - it's ok - because what is one small lie when so much good is done?

It's an age-old philosophical question. Does the end justify the means? 
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Chris on July 23, 2012, 09:06:40 am
My issue with people like Aajonus, is his credibility as a person. I'm not justifying what he did, but I understand why he did it. IMO, this decision by him was based on financial reasons. His goal was to make a buck off his knowledge, and gain national attention. It worked! He was a guest on the Dr's, ect. He used a phony baloney degree, thinking that would get him the credibility that he needs to get noticed. It worked. When you play with fire, sometimes you get burned. IMO, he didn't need to lower his standards to this degree, to pass on his knowledge to others. He may not be a fake, but he surely is a lier. I'm not a big fan of Aajonus to be honest with you. He's not the reason I stared this diet. It's funny, because a lot of us know a lot about nutrition. But, you don't see us trying to be someone who we aren't! Ironically, he didn't need a degree to spread his knowledge and ideas. You don't need a degree to justify a diet or a way of life (IMO). Some of us here are free thinkers. Were not robots, to be trained by only one way of thinking. We don't like to be told to do this, or do that. We look for other alternatives, because we feel there is a much better solution out there. One thing I noticed about the members in this site/forum, we have a lot of free thinkers among us. I like that!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 23, 2012, 12:32:47 pm
Ok - so I'm getting a "no" from you Chris. The end did not justify the means in your opinion. You think he could have achieved similar or the same without the deception. You believe the means were based on greed over any other motivation and not him having a lofty ideal. Here at the forum none of us have money or fame as a motivation. We're free thinkers sharing our knowledge and experience for free - not having to make up degrees.

Fair enough.

Does anyone else believe that AV's end justified his means?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Chris on July 23, 2012, 03:40:23 pm
You thin he could have achieved similar or the same without the deception. You believe the means were based on greed over any other motivation and not him having a lofty ideal.

Hi Dorothy: Do I think he could have achieved a similar result without the deception? I guess we'll never know will we? But, why not! Why sell yourself out and deceive all the people who look up to you, and have faith in you? Not to mention the people (suckers) that pay his $85 annual membership fees on his sight! Don't you think they deserve a little honesty and integrity? I do, I would want to know what I'm buying and paying for. He's not a prophet, and he's not the "leader" in the RPD movement! I personally was never a big fan of his. I don't believe in his food choices/variations in "his" version of the RFD. I'm more of a traditionalist and a simplest in theory. I'm not here to play executioner! The thing you have to understand, is that he knew what he was doing all along. How arrogant is that? IMO, I feel like he used the diet as a platform for himself, and his self fulfilling desire for fame and fortune. How else would you explain his actions? If his "lofty ideal" was to deceive his followers, than he succeeded! What did he really accomplish? We'll he has a few books for sale, he charges a nice annual membership fee to his site, he get's even invited to be on the Dr's TV show to promote himself further. Granted he did expose people to the RFD, and the possibilities of what the diet can do for you. But, don't give him too much credit. The RFD is promoted by this website and it's members too, and it's free! Granted we don't have the platform he does, but our intentions are not to manipulate people and deceive them like he does. IMO, his goals were never the greater needs of the RFD, but in the greater needs for himself! The diet was alway's secondary to his own aspirations. Basically he used the diet as a stepping stone/platform to personal fame. How else would you explain his choices of deceit and manipulation?
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 24, 2012, 03:27:43 am
Hi Chris. Do you want to know my opinion then? It's limited - but still will take some space to give here.

I think he did the best he could have on that doctors show considering what it is. I can't speak to why he chose to do anything or how much of anything he says is true or not - except that I'm pretty sure he was abused as a child and that I don't think he's telling the whole truth about being given animals to eat by animals as I've said before on the forum just by analyzing him in terms of truth detection techniques.  He could have been acting purely out of greed or out of wanting to help the most people he could but I have no way of knowing that unless I ask him directly and watch his face and body.

I don't like making assumptions about people's motivations. I tend to live my own life with the predisposition that ends do not justify means so I don't make any goals beyond what I can achieve with all my ends falling into line with my own ethical parameters - which are pretty severe. For instance I don't lie (which can get pretty intense living in a world where lying is so generally accepted). That being said, I also don't tend to judge others too harshly - as I have had my own motivations misjudged by others lots of times and I tend to the empathic, compassionate side of most arguments by my nature. People tend to see and hear usually what they want to - so I try my best to approach things generally in an analytic manner when I can. When I ask you what you think, it does not imply that I think a certain way. I really like learning about how others perceive things. I was curious to know if you thought that what he achieved, if lying was the only way to achieve it (which we will never really know as you pointed out) was an end that was worth the deception for those that he has helped. If the only way for him to have been able to help the people that he did (like quite a few people here say that he has) was to lie, then, would those ends justify the means?

It's really the question regarding AV isn't it? Some people here had their lives saved by him. They might never have learned about raw meat if he didn't build up a tiny empire on his lies.

What do y'all think?

I don't judge him one way or another. I know I wouldn't do what he did. I also haven't accomplished what he has. Perhaps if I had my life saved I wouldn't care one hoot about the lies. In my armchair though having arrived here from a totally different road than AV - I've only read his cookbook and that was AFTER learning about raw paleo from PaleoPhil), I can analytically say that I always choose the purest means I can and tend to respect that path the most assuming that eventually the truth will find it's way out. I want knowledge, support, truth, ideas all to be free to everyone and as pure as they can be. But I also could be called naive. That's not how our modern day world works is it? People lie constantly, manipulate, work the system. Sometimes personally I feel like a fish out of water in such a world. That's why I just don't judge... or I'd be in constant negative judgment. AV is no different than most of the people I meet in the world.

So, I CHOOSE to just look to the truth around the lies and focus on that. I have worked hard in my life to learn how to discern lies from the truth. That's why I study lie detection. I am determined to set my consciousness pointed towards truth and ignore, sidestep, dismiss and avoid lies as much as I can. In a world that works that functions almost entirely on lies, trying to just makes myself aware of them is more than enough for my plate.

Aajanous Vonderplanitz lied. True. Show me a dozen adults who don't lie most days to themselves or others and then I'll get worked up about it.
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Chris on July 24, 2012, 05:12:01 am
I appreciate and respect your opinions and viewpoints on the subject matter Dorothy. I'm not here to judge anyone either. Yes, I may have a different point of view than others. But, I also like to hear other peoples perspectives as well. These are my views, and my opinions and nothing else. Take them for what there worth. You may agree, you may disagree, or you may agree to disagree.  ??? . I continue to be impressed by the diversity and knowledge of the members in our forum. It's very stimulating, sharing and leaning from each other!
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: Dorothy on July 24, 2012, 06:27:28 am
Isn't it though - stimulating sharing and learning here?! I totally respect your opinions Chris - it's why I asked for them. ;)

And btw - I don't judge people for judging people either - except when I do.  l)  ;D  -X
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 28, 2012, 12:42:06 am
Who wants to wager whether Aajonus had a hand in this? Not a value judgement, the whole thing is super convoluted and everyone involved is asking for whatever they get, obviously someone's in to some shady shit here.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036611_James_Stewart_Bounty_Hunters_Ventura_county.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/036611_James_Stewart_Bounty_Hunters_Ventura_county.html)
Title: Re: Controversial anti-Aajonus claim
Post by: svrn on July 30, 2012, 08:32:58 am
the question is whether he was siezed for perpetrating fraud or simply for selling raw milk. this is a very important question.