Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: mommyrunmommy on August 04, 2013, 09:05:40 am

Title: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: mommyrunmommy on August 04, 2013, 09:05:40 am
I have been eating raw chicken livers for the past three days along with a paleo mostly meat cooked diet. Last night and this morning Ive had terrible diahrea and stomach cramps and a headaches. Could it be from livers? I realized that they weren't 100% pasture - could that be the reason? Is it normal to have diarrhea in the beginning? Also I've been paleo 100% for 4 weeks now. Thanks.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: van on August 04, 2013, 11:08:52 am
Chickens are hardly ever healthy enough to eat, let alone their livers (raw).  Raw liver can give many loose stools.  Try to ease into eating liver and find your threshold, and always respect your taste for them, and when it stops tasting good.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: jessica on August 04, 2013, 12:29:37 pm
hey tyler,

this is why a chapter about food quality and sources and what to avoid would be really helpful in a raw paleo book........
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: 24isours on August 04, 2013, 07:32:02 pm
It could be that your body is reacting to such high amounts of retinol (vitamin a). Do you balance your Vitamin A intake with Vitamin D?
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: Projectile Vomit on August 04, 2013, 07:44:57 pm
Sounds to me like the onset of Salmonella poisoning, which is easy to get from conventional chicken more generally, and internal organs in particular. It usually takes a few days to develop after initial exposure. It can take weeks to clear this from your system, and Salmonella can be fatal to those who are weakened by other ailments, so I hope you're in good health.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: paper_clips43 on August 04, 2013, 10:51:40 pm
I have had similar issues when I wad adjusting to raw meat.

First I would only eat 1-3 oz of liver every couple days to avoid high amounts of Vitamin A. The most beneficial supplement I have found to assist with adjusting to a mostly raw meat diet is Gelatin. Great Lakes has a grass fed gelatin that you can order and mix with water to drink. Also drink it with your meat meals to balance the amino acid content. Gelatin, IMHO, has been the best healer to any gut issues I have had. Also making homemade bone broths from grass fed bones, especially knuckle, is going to aid tremendously in digestion. I only wish I had known this sooner. I could have saved myself a lot of unneeded suffering. I also hope more people are aware of the amino acid requirements form Gelatin. It is absolutely necessary.

Here is a link explaining why....

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml)
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: cherimoya_kid on August 04, 2013, 11:29:19 pm
Don't ever eat chicken raw, unless you can personally vouch for its diet and environment.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: LePatron7 on August 05, 2013, 05:48:42 am
Chicken is one of those foods that no beginner should start with. I personally have never eaten raw chicken. However I have had uncleaned chicken eggs from chickens that ate an incredible diet (Miller's Organic Farm) and I had food poisoning until I started ordering them cleaned.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 05, 2013, 07:58:00 am
FWIW, I've never noticed any problems from the raw chicken livers I've eaten. The first time I ate raw beef liver (and it was my first raw liver), I did have some diarrhea and malaise overnight, but I didn't assume that liver was bad for me and haven't had any problems with any liver since.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: mango on August 05, 2013, 08:30:38 am
after about 2 weeks of having 1-2ozs of raw grassfed beef liver daily, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity.. and many of my candida symptoms returned and it took me several weeks to go back to normal. have since cut out all organ meats and am doing just great on a muscle meat only diet.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 05, 2013, 08:43:00 am
It's surprising to me that I haven't noticed more problems from liver intake, given my own zinc-deficiency and copper-overload symptoms. I can't currently explain it.

I can't recommend a muscle-meat-only diet, in part because over the past 4 years or so, most of the people I've seen adopt a ZC-type diet have eventually reported problems and added other foods back into their diets, with subsequent improvements.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: 24isours on August 05, 2013, 09:10:52 am
after about a week of having 1-2ozs of raw grassfed beef liver daily, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity.. and many of my candida symptoms returned and it took me several weeks to go back to normal. have since cut out all organ meats and am doing just great on a muscle meat only diet.

I would have to agree with PaleoPhil from my experience with my ZC diet. Organ meat is a very important part of the diet. What has worked for me is finding the sweet spot for organ meat intake. I get about 3500 IU of Vitamin A per day from 20g of Liver and 20g of Heart. You may feel better now as you clear out high amounts of Retinol/Copper but you will more than likely need a good source of Retinol as your stores become used up. Balancing Vitamin A intake with Vitamin D is very important as well. I recommend getting Vitamin D from sunlight as dietary sources of Vitamin D compete with Vitamin A. Vitamin D will also help balance out the effects of over-consumption of Retinol (Vitamin A).
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: 24isours on August 05, 2013, 09:19:42 am
It's surprising to me that I haven't noticed more problems from liver intake, given my own zinc-deficiency and copper-overload symptoms. I can't currently explain it.

I can't recommend a muscle-meat-only diet, in part because over the past 4 years or so, most of the people I've seen adopt a ZC-type diet have eventually reported problems and added other foods back into their diets, with subsequent improvements.

With proper dietary and lifestyle adjustments ZC shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: cherimoya_kid on August 05, 2013, 09:40:35 am
With proper dietary and lifestyle adjustments ZC shouldn't be a problem.

Except that it often is a problem, for many people. You can't just give blanket recommendations and expect them to work for everyone.  Humans are way more complex than that.

Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: jessica on August 05, 2013, 09:55:47 am
after about a week of having 1-2ozs of raw grassfed beef liver daily, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity.. and many of my candida symptoms returned and it took me several weeks to go back to normal. have since cut out all organ meats and am doing just great on a muscle meat only diet.

interesting mango.....I wonder if my consumption of so much liver caused any of this in the past.  I always felt so much better with eating large amounts of liver when I first started eating it, I would eat 1 pound a day for weeks

but now I don't really crave it as often, I don't think I ever vitamin a overdosed

i honestly have eaten store bought but organic chicken livers and i think they are pretty gross tasting.  i know there have been times when i havecraved chicken livers but i wouldn't eat those raw.  they just taste rancid and definitely like they have been grain fed

the fresh pastured ones i have had were delicious, so much sweeter.  same goes with fresh, no frozen liver.  i have had it warm from a fresh killed deer and it was waaay to intense, but aged a few days and its deliciously sweet.  i have also had fresh, never frozen grass fed lamb and beef liver that was as delicious, and some that had been in the wrong packaging too long and was foul.  so i think it depends on how the food is handled.

ii would suggest raw yogurt or cheese, salt or seaweed and clay or charcoal to help your stomach and diarrhea, also taking a lot of "primal defense " probiotic worked well for me with giardia or whatever i had....
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: 24isours on August 05, 2013, 10:02:12 am
Except that it often is a problem, for many people. You can't just give blanket recommendations and expect them to work for everyone.  Humans are way more complex than that.

And the goal is to figure out why it is a problem for that person, no? All I am recommending is possibly trying out something that has worked for me.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: mango on August 05, 2013, 10:06:00 am
i understand that most on this forum don't think that a ZC diet is healthy, and that organ meats are essential. but in 7 months of ZC i've almost completely eliminated all signs of a lifelong candida infection, not to mention carpal tunnel/arthritis and a whole host of other undiagnosed mental/physical issues. no signs of any vitamin a deficiency here. the only setback i experienced was when I started eating organ meats, so based on my experiences it is not essential in a ZC diet.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: 24isours on August 05, 2013, 10:16:35 am
i understand that most on this forum don't think that a ZC diet is healthy, and that organ meats are essential. but in 7 months of ZC i've almost completely eliminated all signs of a lifelong candida infection, not to mention carpal tunnel/arthritis and a whole host of other undiagnosed mental/physical issues. no signs of any vitamin a deficiency here. the only setback i experienced was when I started eating organ meats, so based on my experiences it is not essential in a ZC diet.

That is wonderful, glad to hear it! So, how long were you without a source of Vitamin A?
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: mango on August 05, 2013, 10:28:32 am
thanks :)
for most of my life i hadn't consumed any food which was a major source of vitamin a.
the only food was the liver i experimented with for 1-2 weeks back in may of this year.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: van on August 05, 2013, 10:47:12 am
I don't know if ZC is for everyone, or anyone... but I do know there's a bunch of ways to mess it up so that it doesn't work.   A couple of examples; eating two much protein, not finding suitable fat, not giving the keto adaption enough time, and giving up, not finding enough variety and finding it boring, or not waiting to eat when actually hungry,  unable to give up fruit or sugar addiction, not exercising appropriately ( in the beginning one needs to start slow with any exercise and allow the body to find it's energy source, rather than expect to flat out tear into exercise as when fueled by sugar), for some-not including organs, and for some finding a balanced mineral source especially mg., which will help keep the bowels moving on a low fibre diet.  And,  letting the body go through a healing that a low sugar diet will initiate, such as the elimination of candida etc. 
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: mango on August 05, 2013, 10:55:18 am
those are all valid concerns you've mentioned for someone starting out on ZC.  some of those issues i've come across as well. most especially learning not to exceed the amount of protein i need each day, and initially learning to eat the right balance of fat:protein. 
about 99% of the meat i've consumed in these 7 months has been the US Wellness 75/25 grassfed ground beef. i've found that it is the perfect ratio of fat/protein for my body and highly recommend it.
i can see how some/most could easily get bored with eating the same meat of the same texture each day, but personally i love the simplicity of it and completely enjoy both of my daily meals.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: ys on August 06, 2013, 12:11:53 am
I agree this is some kind of bacterial infections.  Your symptoms are classic examples of salmonella-like infection. I had exactly the same symptoms long time ago when I consumed packaged meat and did not rinse it with water.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 06, 2013, 07:59:20 am
Many people in this forum also eat fruits, veggies and fat, not just meat and organs. I hope no one's getting the notion that most or all here only eat animal foods. I think Iguana was puzzled in the past by comments that seemed along those lines and wondered where some people were getting this notion (and I hope he will correct me if I remember wrongly).

I vaguely recall that the problems with ZC and near-ZC tend to become more apparent after a year or two, but don't quote me on that.  :D It seems like most don't last more than 2 years, but some do. For example, Lex Rooker is near-ZC (he eats some carb-containing organs and occasionally other carb-containing foods) and he seems to have done fairly well (though he did develop kidney stones which he attributed to insufficient water intake).

I hope this will be understood as sharing what I've seen on this forum and elsewhere, rather than as criticism or instructions. I don't claim to know what will work best for you and I'm not even certain what would work best for me.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: mango on August 06, 2013, 11:50:30 pm
no offense taken. i've seen mention of the "problems" with ZC 1-2 years down the line several times on this forum, and it scared me when starting off on my journey, but honestly i don't buy. in 7 months i'm not showing any deficiencies, and this is while my body is going through a major healing process and fighting this candida infection which i still have to a minor degree.
 
keep in mind during these 7 months the candida has been still present in my system, although much less than ever before, and has been robbing my body of nutrients from the meat/fat that i'm eating.  yet i still haven't shown any deficiencies.   so once i'm completely healed in another few months or a year, and my body is getting 100% of the nutrients, i can't imagine things would get worse. if anything they would only be similar or much better than they are now (and i currently feel pretty awesome on a usual day)

it's true that most on here do not eat a diet of only meat/fat, but for those with severe candida infections they usually cannot eat any fruits, veggies, yogurts, dairy, etc.. i wasted somewhere between 1-2 years coming to that realization.   so i'm posting this to encourage those who may be in a similar situation. i fully intend to stick around this forum for the next few years and provide updates on how its going :) happy to answer any questions/PM's
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: cherimoya_kid on August 08, 2013, 06:12:19 am
Many people in this forum also eat fruits, veggies and fat, not just meat and organs. I hope no one's getting the notion that most or all here only eat animal foods. I think Iguana was puzzled in the past by comments that seemed along those lines and wondered where some people were getting this notion (and I hope he will correct me if I remember wrongly).


I think me, and people like me, are part of that misconception. I'm so rabidly against lowfat raw veganism (along with a few other people here, who also got burned by lowfat raw veganism) that it's possible that people are getting the idea that I  (or the membership in general) don't actually eat fruits or veggies. Actually I just ate 3 large mangoes and 3 or 4 bananas, plus a couple of avocados. That's fairly typical for my evening meal.  I probably eat about 10 medium-sized pieces of fruit a day, plus about 1 pound of meat and fat.

Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 08, 2013, 07:04:51 am
Wow, I envy your ability to handle fruit--tip of the hat to you, Cheri. That would be quite a lot of fruit for me--probably more than I've eaten in years, except for a brief experiment with a fruit-heavy diet (I had never tried a fruit-heavy diet, though I had tried vegetarianism, and figured I should try it before judging it) that quickly went sour (when my teeth started wobbling and my gums became inflamed and bloody and full of  tartar and other gunk--don't worry, I don't make any judgment about diets for humans as a whole based on it, I understand well that it was largely due to my own physiological challenges) and had to be abandoned. I guess it's a bit ironic that I cut fruit-lovers and other carb-eaters more slack.  ;D Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: cherimoya_kid on August 09, 2013, 05:52:57 am
Sure.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: van on August 09, 2013, 08:14:40 am
I think ones tolerance for high fruit diets has a lot to do with genetics, specificaly related to inherited insulin and leptin resistance, and how much in ones past have we abused or overeaten any type of sugars or carbs.  I know for myself, I spent way too many years ( raw since 1974)  holding that dream of fruitarianism and spent a lot of time searching the best fruits around the world... never really paying attention to blood sugar levels or anything actually except my ideas and thoughts about how much healthier I'm going to be....  I remember when I went 80/10/10  ( bad idea )   or the Wai diet,,  both felt so good at first, but it's hard to pick up the signals from the body as to whether it's good or bad because over the long run, day to day,  the potential for a downward spiral can be ever so gradual that we just don't notice ( or care to ), and I did things like eating more and more fruit to make up for low blood sugar swings and lost muscle mass (weight loss in general).  Even looking in the mirror can be deceptive, cause it's so gradual and from one day to the next  it's hard to notice.   There's little doubt in my mind that the sugar high from fruits is, if not addictive,  a high that comes just 'too easily'.   
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 09, 2013, 08:35:01 am
In my case, the production of pyrroles and deficiencies in zinc and B6 is a very plausible cause of my issues with carbs. Luckily, I never had a fruity diet dream.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: LePatron7 on August 09, 2013, 11:45:00 am
I think carb tolerance may also be influenced by how well the enzymatic pathways are functioning. The more I look into it the more I see certain nutrients (magnesium, zinc, manganese, and selenium possibly more) are required for different enzymes (fat, protein AND carb metabolism) to function properly. I've seen magnesium and zinc being needed for 300+ enzymatic processes EACH, and manganese in some as well.

Article on zinc: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/ (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/)

"Over 300 different enzymes depend on zinc for their ability to catalyze vital chemical reactions. Zinc-dependent enzymes can be found in all known classes of enzymes (4)."

Article on magnesium: http://www.naturalnews.com/023511_magnesium_body_deficiency.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/023511_magnesium_body_deficiency.html)

""Enzymes are protein molecules that stimulate every chemical reaction in the body. Magnesium is
required to make hundreds of these enzymes work." - Dr. Carolyn Dean"

Article on manganese: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/manganese/ (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/manganese/)

"Manganese (Mn) plays an important role in a number of physiologic processes as a constituent of multiple enzymes and an activator of other enzymes (2)."

Article on selenium: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/selenium/ (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/selenium/)

"Humans and animals require selenium for the function of a number of selenium-dependent enzymes, also known as selenoproteins."

Since adding in those vitamins (to my likely very deficient diet) I've noticed I digest my animal foods much better. I used to have problems (gagging) eating meals to close together because I'd still feel full from my last meal. I assume from it digesting slowly since my digestion was hindered due to lack of enzyme function. Now I can eat meals much closer together without gagging or feeling full.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: van on August 09, 2013, 11:16:18 pm
I was going to add this in response to Phil's last post, but equally suited here... and that is;    what came first the mineral etc. deficiency or the 'overconsumption' or of fruit or carbs.  For most of us here, if in our pasts, if we weren't including an abundance of healthy fats, we either had two choices to make up for those calories, protein or carbs. ( But even overconsumption of protein has it's fallout).   My guess for most it was carbs.  The upset hormonal system as a result from continually spiking insulin and leptin abuse can cause all sorts of imbalances. 
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: cherimoya_kid on August 10, 2013, 05:52:01 am
I was going to add this in response to Phil's last post, but equally suited here... and that is;    what came first the mineral etc. deficiency or the 'overconsumption' or of fruit or carbs?... 

Exactly.  That's an excellent question.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: LePatron7 on August 10, 2013, 05:58:35 am
I was going to add this in response to Phil's last post, but equally suited here... and that is;    what came first the mineral etc. deficiency or the 'overconsumption' or of fruit or carbs.

That is a good question. And most likely there was a minor deficiency to begin with, or even perhaps none at all. Then the excessive fruit/carb consumption made the deficiency worse or even caused it when there was none to begin with.

However it could be other things, and I'm not saying the only reason for poor carb tolerance is a lack of minerals (which results in poor enzyme function). Generally illness or any state of health that is less than optimal has multiple causes.
Title: Re: 3 days of raw liver - can it cause intestinal issues
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 12, 2013, 08:59:44 am
Thanks for the links, DaBoss.

Multiple causes sounds about right, with different causes impacting different people in varying degrees, and the carb/macronutrient ratio debates will probably go on forever.

The original thread poster, mommyrunmommy, hasn't mentioned eating meat-only, so I'll try to avoid additional comment on ZC and carbs unless she inquires about it, to avoid derailing the thread.