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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Info / News Items / Announcements => Topic started by: Haai on October 12, 2013, 04:27:31 pm

Title: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 12, 2013, 04:27:31 pm
Hey guys,

for those interested, I've published an ebook about the Raw Paleo Diet & lifestyle. Due to the time and effort involved in writing it (more than 560 scientific references, many of which were not accessible for free), not to mention the formatting, I have decided to put a price on it, although I believe about the first 20 percent of the book can be read for free. It's available through smashwords ( https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/366528 (https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/366528) ) and amazon kdp.

I hope someone finds it useful, or at least interesting!
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 12, 2013, 08:46:04 pm
Congratulations! According to the few pages I already read, it appears to be a masterpiece. I imagine the colossal amount of work needed to search and examine all these 560 references and then make such a readable synthesis.

How long did it take to achieve all this? What's the price for the whole version? I didn't see it mentioned.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Projectile Vomit on October 12, 2013, 09:12:19 pm
Looks pretty nice. I get paid on Tuesday, so I'll make the purchase then.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Projectile Vomit on October 12, 2013, 09:13:45 pm
Also, for whatever it's worth, I teach at a university and have access to most peer-reviewed articles at no cost. If you ever need something and don't want to have to pay for it straight up, send me an email with the citation and I can probably get it for you. Odds are I'll want to read it too.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 12, 2013, 09:18:32 pm
Thanks guys!

Iguana, the price is USD 9.45. Which is approx. eur 6.95 I believe.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 12, 2013, 09:20:16 pm
I was working on it for about 5 months by the way.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 13, 2013, 01:40:03 am
Excellent book, I highly recommend it. 5 months only? You’re very efficient!

Just a remark: page 15, you assimilate honey to refined sugars. But honey is not refined, unlike industrial sucrose, which is highly processed until it becomes > 99% chemically pure C12H22O11. On the contrary, glucose in honey is deeply embedded in plenty minerals, trace elements, vitamins and a profusion of other extremely complex organic structures. Same for unprocessed, unrefined glucose and fructose in fruits (page 16). Unmixed, unheated honey, from bees never fed sucrose, cannot be eaten in too large amounts. Personally, when I eat some (which is very seldom), it’s in very small amounts only. It burn my mouth if I attempt to eat too much of it.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 13, 2013, 04:12:42 am
Excellent book, I highly recommend it. 5 months only? You’re very efficient!

Just a remark: page 15, you assimilate honey to refined sugars. But honey is not refined, unlike industrial sucrose, which is highly processed until it becomes > 99% chemically pure C12H22O11. On the contrary, glucose in honey is deeply embedded in plenty minerals, trace elements, vitamins and a profusion of other extremely complex organic structures. Same for unprocessed, unrefined glucose and fructose in fruits (page 16). Unmixed, unheated honey, from bees never fed sucrose, cannot be eaten in too large amounts. Personally, when I eat some (which is very seldom), it’s in very small amounts only. It burn my mouth if I attempt to eat too much of it.


Yes I managed to get it done in 5 months only because I have been unemployed since early July. So I was able to work on it for many hours daily.
Perhaps I should have used, "concentrated source of sugar", rather than "refined sugar", when describing honey. Maybe it could be argued, though, that honey is processed nectar, and that a refining process is carried out by the bees to produce the honey. In which case you could say that honey is a refined product. Or maybe I'm just clutching at straws lol.

When I eat honey (which is rarely), including unheated raw honey comb (I've even bought it from Orkos before), I can eat a lot of it. I believe that on the rare occasions that honeycomb is eaten by contemporary hunter-gatherers, it is eaten in relatively large amounts.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: van on October 13, 2013, 05:48:37 am
I agree with being able to eat a lot.  And it does have a sugar rush.  I also think that typical (what ever that would mean) hg's would find hives so infrequently that it would be a rare treat vs. a food source, thus they could eat quite a bit and not have any real adverse effects long term.   
   I also like very much your straight forward approach with your essay.  Very well laid out and easy to follow.  I like the lack of bias in it too. Well done!
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 13, 2013, 06:05:03 pm
I also like very much your straight forward approach with your essay.  Very well laid out and easy to follow.  I like the lack of bias in it too. Well done!

Thanks for the compliments van. I try to be as unbiased as possible. Primal dieters amongst us may not agree with most of what I wrote about dairy; however, what I wrote was based on scientific research. And for what it's worth, I wish dairy was good for me, because it is delicious. I have experimented with raw (sheep/goat/cow) dairy products in the past, all organic and from pastured animals ofcourse, and, let's just say, it didn't agree with me.
For those of you that haven't read it, I do mention that small quantities of raw milk may have been consumed in the Palaeolithic Era from the udders of lactating female mammals or the stomachs of their young, when these animals were preyed upon. But this would obviously have been seasonal. For this reason I later mention that raw milk/dairy, in small quantities, could be a suitable Paleo "cheat" food. However, and this is just my opinion, it is quite possible that our Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer ancestors would have completely avoided dairy from the udders and stomachs of the prey items previously mentioned, due to the highly uncomfortable symptoms related to lactose-intolerance. Even the likes of rats and mice will avoid food that, having eaten it once, made them ill.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 13, 2013, 07:48:08 pm
The African honey guide bird has led humans to honey for many thousands of years and has even developed a special call just for human beings, and humans developed a call for the bird, making it almost child's play to find the honey.

Birds lead human to honey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gX0bJsFNcw#)

During peak years, in the peak season of several weeks, humans had more honey than they could eat, even if gorging. The key limiter seems to have been seasonality and low years in which bee food (largely tree and flower nectar) was scarce and the bees thus produced less honey.

Both humans and honey badgers know to leave some of the honeycomb for the helpful bird. In this video, the honey guide bird even vocally reminds the honey badger to share:

The honey guide bird leads the honey badger ( Amazing Partnership ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D544WoTj5qI#ws)

When humans started settling down, they began storing and fermenting the honey to last them months (while fermentation is not necessary if the honey is stored well, it makes it easier to store without being spoiled by unwanted microbes), eventually the whole year. Humans had long before figured out that if they added water, put the mixture in a bag made from the hide of a goat, sheep or other animal, and kept it warm near a fire, it would produce a mildly alcoholic beverage (mead). If they fermented it for long periods, it could even be made quite strong.

Quote
"The traditional Maasai diet consists of six basic foods: meat, blood, milk, fat, honey, and tree bark. ....

Honey is obtained from the Torrobo tribe and is a prime ingredient in mead, a fermented beverage that only elders may drink. In recent times, fermented maize (corn) with millet yeast or a mixture of fermented sugar and baking powder have become the primary ingredients of mead."

Read more: Maasai - Introduction, Location, Language, Folklore, Religion, Major holidays, Rites of passage, Relationships, Living conditions http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Tajikistan-to-Zimbabwe/Maasai.html#ixzz20grwhJky (http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Tajikistan-to-Zimbabwe/Maasai.html#ixzz20grwhJky)
Later in Europe, great mead halls were built in which men gathered and  reportedly drank enormous quantities of mead (which with increasing frequency over time could include neolithic ingredients, like grapes and barley, depending on what easily fermentable crops grew in the region, http://www.penn.museum/sites/Midas/feastremains.shtml, (http://www.penn.museum/sites/Midas/feastremains.shtml,) and the neolithic ingredients eventually eclipsed honey, as they were more easily mass-produced) and if needed could somehow still fight a battle the next early morning. It was apparently even customary and encouraged to gorge on mead the night before a battle, and mead was sometimes reserved for warriors and leaders, or elders. However, I wouldn't recommend gorging on honey or mead regularly. It seems our ancestors were more robust than most of us today and we do not have the same high quality food sources and natural robustifying lifestyles they had.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 13, 2013, 08:26:11 pm
I guess humans can eat a lot of honey when it's about the only source of sugar they have. As I eat enough fruits, I'm not so attracted to honey and can't eat much of it.

These last years, I ate plenty of figs and just some months ago I bought some at the farmers' market. Eventually the figs on my own trees ripened, but by then I could barely eat figs... !
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: TylerDurden on October 13, 2013, 09:12:27 pm
Thanks for the compliments van. I try to be as unbiased as possible. Primal dieters amongst us may not agree with most of what I wrote about dairy; however, what I wrote was based on scientific research. And for what it's worth, I wish dairy was good for me, because it is delicious. I have experimented with raw (sheep/goat/cow) dairy products in the past, all organic and from pastured animals ofcourse, and, let's just say, it didn't agree with me.
For those of you that haven't read it, I do mention that small quantities of raw milk may have been consumed in the Palaeolithic Era from the udders of lactating female mammals or the stomachs of their young, when these animals were preyed upon. But this would obviously have been seasonal. For this reason I later mention that raw milk/dairy, in small quantities, could be a suitable Paleo "cheat" food. However, and this is just my opinion, it is quite possible that our Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer ancestors would have completely avoided dairy from the udders and stomachs of the prey items previously mentioned, due to the highly uncomfortable symptoms related to lactose-intolerance. Even the likes of rats and mice will avoid food that, having eaten it once, made them ill.
This is quite wrong. In order to get milk from the udders, one needs to stimulate the udders via suckling etc. which stimulates hormones which then produce the milk. Once the animal is dead, there is bugger all milk, so, no, palaeo humans had no access to milk, raw or otherwise.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 13, 2013, 10:01:47 pm
That's what the experiment Bruno Comby had the opportunity to do showed.  It's here
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-8331/msg108942/#msg108942 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-8331/msg108942/#msg108942)
and it's been thoroughly discussed and challenged in the following page. So, perhaps, hominids could have - very infrequently - drank a tiny amount of milk. It’s like they, but extremely seldom, could have access to some grilled food after a volcanic eruption or a wildfire.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: TylerDurden on October 13, 2013, 10:27:19 pm
Thanks, Iguana for confirming that dairy-intake in palaeo times was close to nonexistent. I  have included the relevant text in the info for newbies section.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 13, 2013, 10:44:21 pm
This is quite wrong. In order to get milk from the udders, one needs to stimulate the udders via suckling etc. which stimulates hormones which then produce the milk. Once the animal is dead, there is bugger all milk, so, no, palaeo humans had no access to milk, raw or otherwise.

I can't find it now, but I am sure I have seen a (youtube?) video of a lion lapping milk from the udder of an antelope or some other species, which it had killed. But anyway, if you checkout the anatomy of an udder, there are some milk storage compartments, for example the udder cistern. Of course, the udders of wild animals are much smaller than domesticated animals that are bred to produce large quantities of milk. Also, you seem to ignore the bit about the stomachs of young mammals containing milk after having suckled. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the consumption of milk by humans in the Palaeolithic was very likely negligible, which I also wrote in the ebook.
But as Iguana points out, this has already been discussed.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Dr. D on October 14, 2013, 12:54:18 am
The only time I've found milk in the wild was in that young deers stomach that I found as roadkill. It actually had turned to cheese and there was about 1/2 pound worth. It had a bit of green with it which I assumed was grass and possibly the beginning of curdling molds turning into more cheese. No appeal to me, it seemed closer to fecal matter than actual food.

Iirc my dogs did try to eat it. I didn't want them to.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: TylerDurden on October 14, 2013, 01:14:13 am
I can't find it now, but I am sure I have seen a (youtube?) video of a lion lapping milk from the udder of an antelope or some other species, which it had killed. But anyway, if you checkout the anatomy of an udder, there are some milk storage compartments, for example the udder cistern. Of course, the udders of wild animals are much smaller than domesticated animals that are bred to produce large quantities of milk. Also, you seem to ignore the bit about the stomachs of young mammals containing milk after having suckled. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the consumption of milk by humans in the Palaeolithic was very likely negligible, which I also wrote in the ebook.
But as Iguana points out, this has already been discussed.
The point is that, even so, intake of milk was on a microscopic level since Comby et al point out that milk production needs to be stimulated by suckling a live mammal. Other than that, actual milk in an udder from a non-domesticated dead animal is virtually nonexistent, just  involving a few drops like Comby stated. Milk in a young animal`s stomach is also not the same as standard fresh raw milk as it is  being fermented/digested further  in the stomach. So no palaeo peoples could ever have eaten raw dairy regularly and therefore would never have adapted to it.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: TylerDurden on October 14, 2013, 01:15:47 am
Incidentally, I rather admire GCB for being anti-raw dairy. As a  guru, he could easily have stated that raw dairy was a wonderful food so as to gain more converts to his diet. After all, most people find it much quicker to get used to the taste of  raw dairy than the taste of  fresh, raw meats.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 14, 2013, 02:19:20 am
Stone Age milk consumption

This is quite wrong. In order to get milk from the udders, one needs to stimulate the udders via suckling etc. which stimulates hormones which then produce the milk. Once the animal is dead, there is bugger all milk, so, no, palaeo humans had no access to milk, raw or otherwise.
I used to think that too (and had even been criticized as too anti-dairy in the past by WAP fans and some other people elsewhere--possibly also here, I don't recall now) until I came across counter-evidence that I already shared in a thread you participated in here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-8331/msg109083/#msg109083 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-8331/msg109083/#msg109083)

The post was a tad long, so perhaps this most relevant part was missed:
Quote
> From The Old Way: A Story of the First People [Bushmen hunter-gatherers of Africa], by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas, page 23:

"When I got there, the mother gemsbok and her calf were dead and the leopard had run away. ... The mother had milk in her udder, which had four teats like goats' teats, all covered with hair, two large teats in front and two small teats behind. The two men milked her, stroking the milk veins in the bag, milking a squirt into their palm and licking it off. The gemsbok, lying on her side with one hind leg lightly raised, was so big that both men could squat below the leg to milk her. I tasted some milk, which was strong and gamey, also harsh and salty, very different from the mild, sweet milk of cows. Then the two men rolled her on her back, skinned and opened her belly, then opened the rumen. ...."

> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche:) "The Comanches sometimes ate raw meat, especially raw liver flavored with gall. They also drank the milk from the slashed udders of buffalo, deer, and elk. Among their delicacies was the curdled milk from the stomachs of suckling buffalo calves, and they also enjoyed buffalo tripe, or stomachs."
I've also seen reports of similar things from dairy advocates, which I was at first skeptical about, until I found confirmation. So it's apparently possible to get milk from a dead animal (including one that was killed earlier by a leopard) and perhaps at least some Paleo hunter gatherers consumed some milk, probably fermented when there was a particularly full udder, but not a lot  and only seasonally and intermittently. At the least, it seems we can't rule it out. Of course, no one was there to witness it either way, so the debates will never end and it always comes down to personal experimentation in the end.

Lactose intolerance

The lactose intolerance issue gets brought up frequently when milk is discussed, but it was largely a non-issue in hunter-gatherer and traditional societies due to either fermentation or small and intermittent intakes. I suspect that one reason why the Masai and some other pastoral peoples never developed much lactase persistence despite consuming large quantities of milk for thousands of years (see "Lactose malabsorption among Masai children of East Africa," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925)) is that they almost always fermented milk before consuming it, and rural Masai still do, which apparently eliminates most of the need for lactase. Apparently, they also often consumed it raw and added blood. All these practices are rare in the modern world.

Most people in the West no longer follow the traditional dairy practices and there are wide variations in tolerances, so YMMV, as always. I'm neither advocating milk, nor discouraging it, just sharing what I found.

Raw dairy: one reason why there will never be wide consensus on an RPD ebook

Dairy is always a hot topic in Paleo circles, with strong opinions on both sides that are not likely to change in most cases (with rare exceptions, such as mine--I try to go wherever the evidence takes me, rather than seek confirmation of my existing opinions, and it's not easy), regardless of the evidence, which is complex and mixed and thus grist for much debate and a major reason why there will never be wide consensus on an RPD ebook.

I do agree that much of the strong, emotional, and sometimes rabid support for dairy likely comes in large part from its tastiness and it's a bit of a turn-off for me (and probably partly why I was more negative and suspicious about dairy early on--fanaticism often accompanies misleading myths, though even then there can be a kernel of truth in it). Also, some of the most vehement anti-dairy opinions come from vegans and ex-vegans (who tend to have or been influenced in the past by ethics-based views on the topic that can be highly emotional), and the Internet is full of them. So it seems pretty much a wash on that front. One could cater to either crowd.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: van on October 14, 2013, 03:30:40 am
Incidentally, I rather admire GCB for being anti-raw dairy. As a  guru, he could easily have stated that raw dairy was a wonderful food so as to gain more converts to his diet. After all, most people find it much quicker to get used to the taste of  raw dairy than the taste of  fresh, raw meats.
   Bruno, who I've spent a few days with, was already steeped in instincto.   But I agree about the availability of milk.  One thing we're all missing here is if you look at societies who use dairy, milk as it comes out of the udder is rarely used (except by children).  Cheese is preferred ( have you ever seen a Frenchman go into a restaurant and order a glass of milk) and or cultures like the Caucus peoples or the Masai who mix it with blood and allow it to ferment.  There has been mentioned about our bodies ability to recognize and hence digest say a cow molecule of milk.  But I'd argue that fermenting or having the milk go through a lengthy cheese culturing process breaks it down and makes it more digestible on many levels.  Some of the longest lived and healthiest peoples were those in the Lowenthal valley of Switzerland (spelling). 
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Ioanna on October 14, 2013, 03:53:42 am
Also, for whatever it's worth, I teach at a university and have access to most peer-reviewed articles at no cost. If you ever need something and don't want to have to pay for it straight up, send me an email with the citation and I can probably get it for you. Odds are I'll want to read it too.

i have this access also. if i can get an article for anyone please let me know!
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 14, 2013, 04:52:08 am
So it's apparently possible to get milk from a dead animal (including one that was killed earlier by a leopard) and perhaps at least some Paleo hunter gatherers consumed some milk, probably fermented when there was a particularly full udder, but not a lot  and only seasonally and intermittently. At the least, it seems we can't rule it out. Of course, no one was there to witness it either way, so the debates will never end and it always comes down to personal experimentation in the end.

AFAIK, all the experimentations of people on steady, 100% raw instinctive paleo nutrition have been negative or even catastrophic. On of the 4 first guys to practice this nutrition (he started around 1965, assisting his friends GCB and wife Nicole to work it out) told me “the worst raw diet proved to be “instincto” with milk”.

Ok: as you say, the possibility is not excluded  that some paleo hunter-gatherers occasionally consumed a little bit of milk. Probably about the same rare occurrence as they sometimes may have eaten some food grilled on hot lava after a volcanic eruption or wildfire.

I would like the quote from Wikipedia corroborated by another source before I could totally trust it. It has no reference but nevertheless lacks the usual mention “citation needed”. Anyway, these people used to cook food and had sophisticated hunting weapons and tools.

Bruno, who I've spent a few days with, was already steeped in instincto.
Why do you confirm that? Of course he was, otherwise he wouldn’t have done such an experiment.

Quote
There has been mentioned about our bodies ability to recognize and hence digest say a cow molecule of milk.  But I'd argue that fermenting or having the milk go through a lengthy cheese culturing process breaks it down and makes it more digestible on many levels.
It’s not only a problem of digestion, but mainly of metabolism downstream of digestion. If we are not well adapted to milks of other animals species, then making these milks more digestible is even more worrying. This has been repeatedly pointed out by GCB, both in his seminars and in his writings.

Quote
Some of the longest lived and healthiest peoples were those in the Lowenthal valley of Switzerland (spelling). 
Lötchenthal. I don’t know if they lived that long (I thought the longest lifespan was generally attributed to the Hunzas), but anyway they would probably have lived even longer if they had better foods and didn’t consume any dairy.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 14, 2013, 05:02:03 am
Incidentally, I rather admire GCB for being anti-raw dairy. As a  guru, he could easily have stated that raw dairy was a wonderful food so as to gain more converts to his diet. After all, most people find it much quicker to get used to the taste of  raw dairy than the taste of  fresh, raw meats.

Yes, and I guess that's why AV reintroduced milk, dairy, juices and recipes after having copied GCB on most points.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 14, 2013, 09:17:11 am
Jacob, congrats on publishing your ebook and I hope folks will pay for it if they enjoy it and can afford to. Congrats also on your health succes. I used to get the eyelid mucus and "sand" thing and cold-like symptoms too on SAD, and the evolutionary logic of Paleo also made sense to me. I only read a bit of the ebook sample, but it was interesting to see someone else report that, thanks.

---

Cheese is preferred ( have you ever seen a Frenchman go into a restaurant and order a glass of milk) and or cultures like the Caucus peoples or the Masai who mix it with blood and allow it to ferment.  There has been mentioned about our bodies ability to recognize and hence digest say a cow molecule of milk.  But I'd argue that fermenting or having the milk go through a lengthy cheese culturing process breaks it down and makes it more digestible on many levels.
Yes, Van, that has been my experience as well, and as I mentioned about the Masai, despite many of them being lactose intolerant, they have been tolerating milk for thousands of years by fermenting it, and many of them are reportedly in better health than many of us in this forum, given the reports I've seen here. As has been indicated many times by many people in this forum on many topics, the most extremely negative reports of some are not the experience of everyone.

Yes, and I guess that's why AV reintroduced milk, dairy, juices and recipes after having copied GCB on most points.
Unless you think Aajonus was lying, which can't be definitively proven one way or another, then you're guess was wrong. You've read this forum long enough that you should know by now that Aajonus and many of his fans claimed that raw milk improved their health. My own experience comes closer to GCB's recommendations than Aajonus', and I don't buy many of Aajonus' claims, but even I doubt that Aajonus would have continued consuming large amounts of raw milk for the rest of his life if he was only doing it to gain more converts to his diet. Do you really believe that?

After all, while raw milk is more popular than raw meat, it's hardly the most popular food one could promote. If AV had truly been guided primarily by popularity, he would have promoted the most popular foods, like crispy fried bacon, unlimited sweet fruits, pizza, sub sandwiches, soda pop, chips, pastries, cookies, cakes, candies, etc. Heck, some gurus have even done that (see Matt Stone's past High Everything Diet and his similar, though somewhat more reasonable RRARF! diet--I don't know what he's promoting now, but it's probably more indulgent than Aajonus' approach). Instead, AV excluded or limited those foods in his recommended diet.

...(I thought the longest lifespan was generally attributed to the Hunzas), but anyway they would probably have lived even longer if they had better foods and didn’t consume any dairy.
Don't the Hunza traditionally consume dairy products? I recall reading that in the past.

Of course, you could choose not to believe Aajonus or Elizabeth Marshall Thomas or the Masai and other long-time dairy eating peoples, or the many people who have reported in this forum and others that they didn't have catastrophic experiences with dairy, and instead choose to believe Iguana and GCB that dairy will prove very harmful for all some day. Unfortunately, neither GCB's nor Aajonus' work has been independently verified by objective parties. Different people report different experiences and make different claims. It has been debated endlessly and will never be resolved. So once again we're left to experiment for ourselves and find out what works for us. To try to bring it back on topic, this is why no single book is going to be accepted by all raw Paleo/Primal/ancestral dieters. I doubt that any two of us agree on everything.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: van on October 14, 2013, 10:15:19 am

AFAIK, all the experimentations of people on steady, 100% raw instinctive paleo nutrition have been negative or even catastrophic. On of the 4 first guys to practice this nutrition (he started around 1965, assisting his friends GCB and wife Nicole to work it out) told me “the worst raw diet proved to be “instincto” with milk”.



Ok: as you say, the possibility is not excluded  that some paleo hunter-gatherers occasionally consumed a little bit of milk. Probably about the same rare occurrence as they sometimes may have eaten some food grilled on hot lava after a volcanic eruption or wildfire.

I would like the quote from Wikipedia corroborated by another source before I could totally trust it. It has no reference but nevertheless lacks the usual mention “citation needed”. Anyway, these people used to cook food and had sophisticated hunting weapons and tools.
Why do you confirm that? Of course he was, otherwise he wouldn’t have done such an experiment.
     that's like trusting the results of an  efficacy test by EJ Lilly  of herbs vs. their drugs.    Or to bring it closer to home, I'd have the same doubts if you did a milk test or some sort (for your mind is already made up)  It is a well known fact that researchers are still prone to observe what they expect to see.  And in the case of food testing on one's self, our mind can manifest powerful reactions.  Most have experienced having said to themselves, 'I am going to be so sick' after eating something they wished they hadn't. 
It’s not only a problem of digestion, but mainly of metabolism downstream of digestion. If we are not well adapted to milks of other animals species, then making these milks more digestible is even more worrying. This has been repeatedly pointed out by GCB, both in his seminars and in his writings.
Lötchenthal. I don’t know if they lived that long (I thought the longest lifespan was generally attributed to the Hunzas), but anyway they would probably have lived even longer if they had better foods and didn’t consume any dairy.

Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 14, 2013, 11:02:06 am
The African honey guide bird has led humans to honey for many thousands of years and has even developed a special call just for human beings, and humans developed a call for the bird, making it almost child's play to find the honey.


Awesome. 
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 14, 2013, 05:18:12 pm
Jacob, congrats on publishing your ebook and I hope folks will pay for it if they enjoy it and can afford to. Congrats also on your health succes. I used to get the eyelid mucus and "sand" thing and cold-like symptoms too on SAD, and the evolutionary logic of Paleo also made sense to me. I only read a bit of the ebook sample, but it was interesting to see someone else report that, thanks.

Thanks Phil.
That eye mucus and sand thing is very unpleasant, isn't it? I'm glad you also do not suffer from it anymore. When I suffered from it I had to lick my finger, often several times, in the morning when I woke up, and use the moisture on the finger to un-dry the dried mucus that had basically glued my eyes shut during the night, so that I could open my eyes.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 14, 2013, 06:04:16 pm
My own experience comes closer to GCB's recommendations than Aajonus', and I don't buy many of Aajonus' claims, but even I doubt that Aajonus would have continued consuming large amounts of raw milk for the rest of his life if he was only doing it to gain more converts to his diet. Do you really believe that?
I just guess, I don’t know and don’t really care.

We don’t know, but it’s quite probable that some people have at least a partial adaptation to animal milk. Since we don’t know, the precautionary principle recommends to avoid milks of other species, each animal species having its own very specific milk which purpose is to feed babies and infants - under 4 years old in the case of humans.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: TylerDurden on October 14, 2013, 06:46:27 pm

Yes, Van, that has been my experience as well, and as I mentioned about the Masai, despite many of them being lactose intolerant, they have been tolerating milk for thousands of years by fermenting it, and many of them are reportedly in better health than many of us in this forum, given the reports I've seen here. As has been indicated many times by many people in this forum on many topics, the most extremely negative reports of some are not the experience of everyone.
Unless you think Aajonus was lying, which can't be definitively proven one way or another, then you're guess was wrong. You've read this forum long enough that you should know by now that Aajonus and many of his fans claimed that raw milk improved their health. My own experience comes closer to GCB's recommendations than Aajonus', and I don't buy many of Aajonus' claims, but even I doubt that Aajonus would have continued consuming large amounts of raw milk for the rest of his life if he was only doing it to gain more converts to his diet. Do you really believe that?
There is no question that AV deliberately and cynically  introduced raw dairy in order to gain more converts. He also introduced tons of raw honey, raw coconut oil/cream as these were more tasty for RVAF diet newbies. He even introduced raw sweeteners for his raw veggie juices which, otherwise, would have tasted disgusting. The claim that he would have chosen a cooked  junk food diet to promote if he wanted more converts is ridiculous since AV was way too "far out" to be able to promote a more mainstream diet.

The absurd claims by Aajonus and his fanatics re raw milk helping them is easily discounted by the plentiful evidence of endless numbers of people suffering from the ill effects of raw dairy. You see this among some of AV`s more fanatical followers who dismiss every nasty side-effect they get from raw dairy as being mere "detox", in accordance with AV`s claims. The fact that these nasty symptoms only occur shortly after consuming raw dairy makes it abundantly clear that such symptoms have nothing to do with detox but are simply signs of allergy towards raw dairy or some similiar issue.

And, please, PP, none of this Noble Savage bullshit  about the Maasai etc. We all know that these tribes led miserable, short  lives. The WAPF`s pathetic excuse, when shown this evidence, is always to pretend that such tribes led full lives of  primal health long ago but that, sadly, their health disappeared as soon as they encountered the white man or as soon as durable  records appeared.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 14, 2013, 06:47:52 pm
it’s quite probable that some people have at least a partial adaptation to animal milk.

This is a very important point. Those people that do seem to be able to digest lactose into adulthood should, if they care about their long-term health, be concerned about the possibility that they cannot properly metabolize galactose; one of the products of lactose digestion. Health problems caused by poor galactose metabolism, such as cataract formation, may only show up decades later: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6804198 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6804198)
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: TylerDurden on October 14, 2013, 07:03:56 pm
Great point, Haai.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 14, 2013, 07:25:57 pm
Iguana and Haai, I agree with you on the precautionary principle, which is why I think it makes sense to try eliminating dairy first, then testing it if one wishes. The most fervent dairy fans would of course disagree with me on that. I appreciate your rational and politely stated concerns about dairy, some of which I share.

Tyler, I didn't reference Weston Price. The Masai reference was from a scientific study (unfortunately only an abstract is available at the link - "Lactose malabsorption among Masai children of East Africa," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925)), but I recall reading other scientific research that found the same thing in the past. Price wasn't the only one who reported something about the Masai.

If you think that Profs. Jackson and Latham are WAPF lackeys with some sort of "Noble Savage theory", feel free to present supporting evidence. Otherwise, please stop wasting your and my time with ad hominem and extraordinary claims and assumptions when you can't refute the evidence. Van also mentioned the Masai and Iguana the Hunza and neither referenced a study, yet you didn't mention them, which seems like a rather transparently selective response. And who is the "we" you're apparently assuming that you speak for?

The nice thing about your anti-dairy rants is they make my past negativity and current caveats about dairy look quite reasonable in comparison. You should challenge the people who criticized me for being too anti-dairy (including one who said something to the effect that that my views on dairy and other things were characteristic of this forum after I questioned what seemed like fervent dairy advocacy at the time--in other words, he lumped me in with you :o ;D ) to a grudge match.  ;D
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 14, 2013, 08:54:39 pm
Price mentioned that both the Maasai and the mountain Swiss revered the spring dairy for its healing powers.  He also noted that spring dairy had 50 times the vitamin A content that winter dairy did, from the very same grass.

He also mentioned that the African tribes that consumed dairy would require young women to eat a very specific diet that included spring dairy for several months before getting married and pregnant.  This is in line with the tendency among MANY tribes to require young women trying to get pregnant to eat specific foods for several months beforehand, like specific shellfish, fish eggs, organs, etc.. These were generally the very same foods recommended for young children to eat, in order to build healthy bodies.

There's definitely a case to be made for grassfed spring dairy, especially from grass grown on very rich soil, if you are not allergic. 
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: TylerDurden on October 14, 2013, 09:58:54 pm
Iguana and Haai, I agree with you on the precautionary principle, which is why I think it makes sense to try eliminating dairy first, then testing it if one wishes. The most fervent dairy fans would of course disagree with me on that. I appreciate your rational and politely stated concerns about dairy, some of which I share.

Tyler, I didn't reference Weston Price. The Masai reference was from a scientific study (unfortunately only an abstract is available at the link - "Lactose malabsorption among Masai children of East Africa," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/581925)), but I recall reading other scientific research that found the same thing in the past. Price wasn't the only one who reported something about the Masai.

If you think that Profs. Jackson and Latham are WAPF lackeys with some sort of "Noble Savage theory", feel free to present supporting evidence. Otherwise, please stop wasting your and my time with ad hominem and extraordinary claims and assumptions when you can't refute the evidence. Van also mentioned the Masai and Iguana the Hunza and neither referenced a study, yet you didn't mention them, which seems like a rather transparently selective response. And who is the "we" you're apparently assuming that you speak for?

The nice thing about your anti-dairy rants is they make my past negativity and current caveats about dairy look quite reasonable in comparison. You should challenge the people who criticized me for being too anti-dairy (including one who said something to the effect that that my views on dairy and other things were characteristic of this forum after I questioned what seemed like fervent dairy advocacy at the time--in other words, he lumped me in with you :o ;D ) to a grudge match.  ;D
There are too many scientific references pointing to low Massai longevity plus health problems. I have already mentioned those in the past endless times. Why not at least check those past posts of mine, rather than pretending that I had never made them?
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: van on October 14, 2013, 11:23:03 pm
I think why the raw milk/Aujonus topic keeps being disputed is that those who do well on it (and I Was one of those that did well) is that when you've tried many different diets and your energy is failing, raw milk, for some, can at least for a while turn that ship around.  And it feels like a godsend.  One that you're likely going to 'defend' quite strongly.   Pretty sure I've mentioned this before.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 14, 2013, 11:39:00 pm
Yes, short term and long term effects can be quite different. And when you come out of a mostly-cooked-standard-modern-diet, any raw food, whatever it is, is better and will make people feel great.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 15, 2013, 04:31:46 am
Of course, you could choose not to believe Aajonus or Elizabeth Marshall Thomas or the Masai and other long-time dairy eating peoples, or the many people who have reported in this forum and others that they didn't have catastrophic experiences with dairy, and instead choose to believe Iguana and GCB that dairy will prove very harmful for all some day

Actually we don’t say that it will necessarily prove harmful for everyone. Several dairy consumers will certainly be sick or die from other causes than dairy consumption or be lucky enough to remain healthy their whole life till an advanced age. And I think the report you quoted from Elizabeth Marshall Thomas is most likely truthful. But it was probably a rare event, even rarer as you go back in time.

Other point: I just purchased your book, Haai, and already noticed that you thank GS and TD at the end. Great!  :)
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Haai on October 15, 2013, 05:00:26 am
Other point: I just purchased your book, Haai, and already noticed that you thank GS and TD at the end. Great!  :)

Yes. Without GS's eczema cure manual I may never have discovered the Raw Paleo Diet and would likely be suffering very badly today. I actually discovered the primal diet before discovering GS's eczema cure manual and the RPD. But I was like, "there's no way I'm trying that!" The fact that GS also suffered from eczema and that he cured it by following the RPD was what gave me that extra incentive/courage I needed to begin the RPD. So thanks GS!
And thanks Tyler for having the idea of creating this forum, and for your devotion to it since its creation!
I hope you enjoy(ed) the read Iguana.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: sabertooth on October 15, 2013, 08:23:17 am
I can testify for Raw milks enigmatic short term benefits, followed by long term issues.

I have tried it on a few occasions, and I will do fine with it, for about three days.

Then my gut gets full of mucus and my digestion is all fouled up. Though I will still feel good and have good energy and appetite, until after the first week. By week two I lose my appetite, start to feel bad, and give up the experiment.

I will still occasionally lap up what I can from a lactating sheep carcass, without any issue. My body can handle it in single doses , but if it is used day after day dairy will invariably cause the build up of gut mucus along with other negative effects.

Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Projectile Vomit on October 15, 2013, 08:56:09 am
Fascinating Derek, I'm curious how you assess your apatite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatite)? I suppose bone density tests might work...

All kidding aside, I assume you mean appetite, which is spelled subtly differently but means something else entirely. Apatite is a mineral, and hydroxyapetite is one of the major components of bone and tooth enamel.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 16, 2013, 09:50:48 am
I will still occasionally lap up what I can from a lactating sheep carcass, without any issue.
Fascinating indeed. Thanks for the report from the "field" (pun intended ;) ), Derek. So it is true that it's possible to get milk from a carcass. That's more evidence confirming the plausibility of Haai's hypothesis "that small quantities of raw milk may have been consumed in the Palaeolithic Era from the udders of lactating female mammals or the stomachs of their young, when these animals were preyed upon," and further calls into question Bruno Comby's dodgy claim that Stone Agers "probably NEVER had access to another species' milk."

Of course, neither Haai nor anyone else has argued that the quantities were large and frequent. Haai even specified "small quantities," so it looks like he was right from the start, not "quite wrong," like Tyler claimed.

From what I've seen in some of the early reactions to Haai's hypothesis, and the Comby quote and Paleo and vegan writings and forums, and elsewhere, the mere possibility of any Stone Age consumption of milk beyond a tiny amount is not widely reported or known, especially the bit about milk from the "stomachs of young mammals" (what a handy dandy kefir/kumis/airag bag that would make), and thus Haai's ebook is more informative on this than most. Kudos to Haai for having the courage to include that bit of "Paleo" heresy. -d

Here are a couple examples of a common view on dairy in Paleo and LC circles that the evidence increasingly suggests goes too far:
Quote
"Stone age diets clearly were characterized by extremely high protein intakes by modern standards, yet bone robusticity and density (determined from fossil paleolithic humans) were greater than or equal to that of most modern humans despite the total absence of dairy products in stone age diets." - Prof. Loren Cordain

"In Paleolithic times and before man didn't drink milk beyond infancy." - Dr. Michael Eades, http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/421 (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/421)
The stomachs mention brings to mind vague recollection of seeing a video documentary in which African Bushmen hunters saved a milk-filled young animal's stomach for later, to allow the milk to ferment further. Thanks for triggering that recollection, Haai. I don't have a link to it and don't recall the name of the documentary, unfortunately.

It looks like sufficient evidence has accumulated to make it prudent to keep Bruno's misleading report out of the newbies section and instead put Haai's and Derek's there (including the caveats, of course), if we are honest and dedicated to sharing facts rather than propaganda. This will be a good test of this forum's commitment to truth.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Iguana on October 17, 2013, 02:52:00 am
I think Bruno Comby was truthfully reporting his experience. But his conclusions are probably too categorical: it doesn't mean that we could never get any milk at all in similar but slightly different conditions, as has been discussed.

I suggest we keep it there in “Important Info for Newbies” and post the relevant discussion below, leaving the door open to question his conclusions  and to show that a tiny amount of milk is possibly available sometimes in the wild, but quite rarely.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: sabertooth on October 17, 2013, 05:06:04 am
Its plausible to view milk as similar to honey. Our ancestors would occasionally have access to a honey comb, but it was never a staple food.

I would bet that when ice age hunters landed a large and lactating mammoth, that they would have most definitely consumed the milk seeping from the mammary tissue.  Perhaps some groups of large game hunters would have had regular, although limited access to milk, from fresh kills.

Its also possible they developed a taste for milk which after the mega-fauna big game animals began to die out, lead some of our ingenious and hungry ancestors to capture live Forrest fauna to take milk from.

This could have given rise to the herdsman. The post paleolithic groups of people who raised their own meat, and would utilize the milk from the animals to supplement their diets, during those days of near starvation.

It would be interesting to know the truth behind the transition from hunters, to herdsman and dairy farmers. There must of been a transitory peiod between the huntsman and the emergence of the milkman.

Even in the primeval herdsman, raw milk was never a main staple. Those peoples who do consume large amounts of milk, would ferment it to make it more digestible. Through bacterial culturing and generation of adaptions some peoples have managed to develop tolerance, and increased ability to digest raw milk, but that doesn't prove that Raw milk is an ideal food.

Even the Swiss whom Weston price used as an example of a healthy group of people, ate lots of cheese. The Mongolians fermented horse milk. Other cultures made, kefer, cottage cheese, yogurt, and countless other kinds of rotten milk. This was necessary to facilitate the gut Flora necessary for humans to adequately digest raw milk from other species of animal.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 20, 2013, 03:34:07 am
Its plausible to view milk as similar to honey. Our ancestors would occasionally have access to a honey comb, but it was never a staple food.
Interestingly, hunter-gatherers seem to regard it as more of a healthy substantial food to make hunters/warriors strong, rather than a dessert for children. In other words, they don't limit themselves to tiny amounts like we moderners do. By all accounts, they gorge on it when it's available (which I'm not advocating), which used to be for longer stretches than today, as there used to be more bee species, more forests and wildflower groves, and thus more honey-producing wild hives in the ancient past, and different wild bees reportedly specialize in different plants and thus produce honey at somewhat different times, expanding the season, not to mention the wild tree saps that were also available. It's still early in my process of learning about honey, though, so maybe I'll find something to contradict this some day, but so far not.

Quote
I would bet that when ice age hunters landed a large and lactating mammoth, that they would have most definitely consumed the milk seeping from the mammary tissue.  Perhaps some groups of large game hunters would have had regular, although limited access to milk, from fresh kills.
That's an interesting point about the megafauna. Trying to make assessments without considering extinct megafauna doesn't make sense. Thanks for pointing that out. It could put some of the info I learned about Neanderthals from a Clive Gamble book into a possibly new perspective:

Quote
"Tooth eruption suggests that the bison were killed [by Neanderthals in Europe] at the end of summer and into the autumn. Eighty per cent of the individuals were adult females and calves, Adult males made up the remainder of the kill. The age profile is described as catastrophic with a high ratio of young individuals."

Clive Gamble The Palaeolithic Societies of Europe, 1999, p. 342

Quote
It would be interesting to know the truth behind the transition from hunters, to herdsman and dairy farmers. There must of been a transitory peiod between the huntsman and the emergence of the milkman.
Indeed it would, and there seems to be scant info or interest on this. There likely was indeed a transition period of some sort, rather than a sudden, dramatic shift to pastoralism.

Quote
Those peoples who do consume large amounts of milk, would ferment it to make it more digestible.
Yes, and this makes Haai's point about fermented milk in the bellies of young kills also quite intriguing.

Thanks again for your and Haai's and Van's posts on this topic, as they are quite rarely open-minded and interesting in the Paleosphere, with the usual stuff here and elsewhere being knee-jerk total condemnations of (and assumptions about zero or near-zero intakes without actually digging into it to find out, and complete lack of interest in) dairy of any sort in any era, from which we learn little or nothing. I haven't found any of your comments to be too dogmatically pro-dairy either. You've shown a healthy balance of skepticism.

BTW, I guess I deserve having to deal with some of the most extreme anti-dairy views, as I came to this forum in part because of the critical view on dairy that was stated in one of its articles (I had gotten tired of the posts of dairy advocates with chips on their shoulder, often fans of WAP, at another Paleo forum). So it seemed like it would be hospitable to dairy avoiders like I was at the time. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for. :)

This dairy topic got me intrigued about dairy again, so I tried a product I hadn't tried before--buttermilk from the jersey cows of a local family farm (the only buttermilk I had tried before was from Hood, many years ago). Even though it was pasteurized, the negative effects it had were surprisingly mild; barely perceptible. It had less of a negative effect than the pasteurized kefir I've tried, including from goats. I have no idea why. It makes me curious to try local raw milk.
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: Barefoot Instincto on October 20, 2013, 07:47:26 am
What are the thoughts on kefir consumption, about 2 liters a month?
Title: Re: RPD & Lifestyle ebook
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 21, 2013, 05:06:57 am
Whatever works for you, Barefoot Instincto.

The stomachs mention brings to mind vague recollection of seeing a video documentary in which African Bushmen hunters saved a milk-filled young animal's stomach for later, to allow the milk to ferment further. Thanks for triggering that recollection, Haai. I don't have a link to it and don't recall the name of the documentary, unfortunately.
Oh silly, forgetful me, young animal kill stomachs as a source of fermented milk was also mentioned in the Comanche quote I included above and had found about 4 years ago, but then forgot about. Here it is again:
Quote
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche:) "The Comanches sometimes ate raw meat, especially raw liver flavored with gall. They also drank the milk from the slashed udders of buffalo, deer, and elk. Among their delicacies was the curdled milk from the stomachs of suckling buffalo calves, and they also enjoyed buffalo tripe, or stomachs."
I would like the quote from Wikipedia corroborated by another source before I could totally trust it.
Your wish is my command, Iguana. :D I found confirming sources. According to Noah Smithwick, a pioneer who lived with the Comanches, the Comanches drank "curdled milk taken from the stomachs of suckling fawns and buffalo calves, which they esteemed a rare delicacy." Comanche 1800-74 by Douglas V. Meed, p. 7. This was also confirmed in Empire of the Summer Moon: Quanah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Comanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History, by S. C. Gwynne.
 
And there's this about the slashed udder method:
 
"A Comanche would cut into the udder of an animal and, placing his mouth on the gash, suck the warm mixture of milk and blood with the greatest of pleasure. The curdled milk from the stomach of a suckling fawn or calf was a delicacy indeed."
The Comanches: Lords of the South Plains, books.google.com/books?isbn=0806120401, by Ernest Wallace, 1986