Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Instincto / Anopsology => Topic started by: Ungullible on February 16, 2014, 11:29:34 pm
Title: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 16, 2014, 11:29:34 pm
For those who still think Burger may claim the paternity of instinctive nutrition, a few stunning photos taken during a Marine Corps survival exercice in the jungle, will show why this topic has been a constant matter of interest for military scientists .
If the link does not work, type the following in google images "marine soldiers cobra survival jungle "
That reminds me that a US navy pilot shot down behind the lines during the Serbia war managed to survive during two weeks by using the "taste and spit" technique which is the same as the one detailed by Burger in his introductory course. I'm surprised Burger did not claim royalties to the US Navy, since he is , presumably, the one who completely re-discovered our instinct ;D
Many physicians who developped the concept of instinctive nutrition, such as TL Cleave, belonged to the Navy ( be it the french navy, the Royal Navy or the Reichsmarine ) or to the Army in general.
Since obeying to one's food instinct is nothing but the hygienic embodiment of the concept of obedience to the natural order/ natural law, military staff had deep rooted cultural reasons to be interested in the topic, beyond the mastering of survival techniques.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Iguana on February 17, 2014, 01:01:51 am
Ok, by pasting "marine soldiers cobra survival jungle " into Google we get funny photos of these guys apparently drinking snake’s blood.
For TL Cleave, Wikipedia says: "Thomas Latimer (Peter) Cleave (1906–1983) was a surgeon captain who researched the negative health effects of consuming refined carbohydrate (notably sugar and white flour) which would not have been available during early human evolution."
Then what? Does it mean this Thomas L. Cleave developed the concept of instinctive nutrition? LOL!
For your guidance, Burger never “claimed the paternity of instinctive nutrition” because he reckons that it had been practiced during hundreds millions years by all the animals and our hominid / human ancestors! You’ve been pretending for 30 years ;D on some French forums that GCB is a plagiarist but you’ve systematically refused to provide a single verifiable valid reference!
The fact is rather the opposite: he’s been plagiarized several times, but he doesn’t care. :)
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 17, 2014, 07:56:05 am
François, we have had the discussion before.
1) The Nasa report on food instinct published in the mid 50's (at a time when all their physicians were military trained) , and Cleave's 1956 paper on the forgetfullness of the natural principles of medicine indicates that military physicians were actively pursuing the idea in order to understand how our food instinct works. The question has always been a constant matter of interest amongst military physicians for decades. Do you seriously think their collective intelligence might have been surpassed by that of GC Burger ? You must be joking .
2) Even though Cleave does not mention the names of other physicians involved in his circle, the fact that he takes for granted the existence of our food instinct in his 1956 paper ( ie without questionning its existence as the vast majority of non military nutrition experts would have it ) means that his paper was following up on previous research. Which previous research ? I give you a hint : in Germany in the mid 1950's , many german physicians were trying to hide their military activity during WWII .
3) His 1956 paper signals what Cleave's considers as a breakthrough idea : the hypothesis of the incompatibility of our food instinct with mechanically denatured raw food.
I don't know of any naturopath in the history of hygienism who can claim to have made a single medical breaktrough. Discoveries are made by professional researchers and scientists, not by naturopaths. However naturopaths have a great advantage over scientists : they generally know that the road to success means abusing their public with their alleged originality. The partition they are playing has always been written by true scientists.
So where are the names of the true composers of the instinctive symphony ? You are like a small boy waving a record in your hand and shouting " The Polonaises ! Great Music ! Written by Arthur Rubinstein. Listen to Rubinstein. What a marvelous musician he was ! " Then someone tells you " No, that's Chopin's Polonaises. Rubinstein was a gifted pianist but he was not a composer. Chopin wrote the partition and Rubinstein simply interpreted it " And you reply to him "I don't know about your Chopin. I don't see Chopin's name on the jacket. So it is Rubinstein's. That's what is written on the jacket and that's his portrait on the album "
Finally I will not disagree with your idea that Burger has probably been plagiarised many times. Originality is quite rare and plagiarism is everywhere.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Iguana on February 17, 2014, 04:31:01 pm
2) Even though Cleave does not mention the names of other physicians involved in his circle, the fact that he takes for granted the existence of our food instinct in his 1956 paper ( ie without questionning its existence as the vast majority of non military nutrition experts would have it ) means that his paper was following up on previous research. Which previous research ? I give you a hint : in Germany in the mid 1950's , many german physicians were trying to hide their military activity during WWII .
So, you’re still on your ridiculous story that the “instincto diet” origin is due to “Nazi pedophiles” (LOL!) which were plagiarized by GCB? ;D
Quote
3) His 1956 paper signals what Cleave's considers as a breakthrough idea : the hypothesis of the incompatibility of our food instinct with mechanically denatured raw food.
Very interesting. What are the references of this paper (title, name and date of publication, etc.)? Can you share with us the relevant and properly referenced excerpts?
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 19, 2014, 04:49:10 am
You must have missed the post by PaleoPhil on this forum .
Here is the link to his post (and my reply half amused, half ironic )
A couple of years ago, I visited the Royal Navy Medical Center where Cleave ended his career (in Worthing West Sussex ) and met with the local librarian. He found it quite amusing that a french researcher would do research on the history of raw diet and food instinct. Obviously this was not his vision of a typical frenchie . Guess what : the Royal Navy has been financing a research unit on "survival medicine" in Worthing for ages.
If you think food instinct is not a constant matter of interest for military medicine ( civilian medicine admittedly couldn't care less) , it's time for you to consult a military physician.....
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Iguana on February 19, 2014, 05:58:47 am
No, I had seen it but didn’t remember the details and the name of the guy.
Yes, it’s good to see the idea that humans’ alimentary instinct still works with raw unprocessed foods had been suggested before GCB thought about it. It doesn’t mean that he has not discovered it from scratch and that he’s a plagiarist as you pretend. He would certainly be glad to know that other people came partially to similar conclusions. There’s nothing new under the sun: logical ideas are ubiquitous. Anyway, I doubt very much this T.L. Cleave also developed the same completely new theories about bacteria / viruses, immune system response (tolerance – intolerance), autoimmune diseases, etc. as GCB did.
Whatever the case, such parallelism in discoveries constantly happen. It even happened to myself twice: in both cases I thought I had invented a new way to associate a diesel engine and a turbomachine, but later discovered that some engineers had the very same ideas several years ago. Some prototypes were build in the 50’s and worked just as I had calculated. On one hand I was a bit disappointed that I hadn’t invented anything new, but on the other hand I was glad that my concept was proven perfectly sound and worked fine.
An engineer friend of mine developed what everyone “skilled in the art” thought was a “new and never seen before” concept of variable compression ratio engine. One day, as we were discussing about it, I asked him: - Are you sure your idea is new? He couldn’t say he was absolutely sure. Then I searched in the series of books translated in English that I had found and bought in Colombo: a Russian guy had published those books in Moscow after spending his whole life to classify mechanisms. It took me a few minutes to find the page where the crankgear mechanism invented by my friend had been described, long before he developed the concept! He was rather taken aback…!
Note: fortunately we have Phil to provide a reference, since you never provided any!
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 19, 2014, 08:42:47 am
"it’s good to see the idea that humans’ alimentary instinct still works with raw unprocessed foods had been suggested before GCB thought about it."
You must be kidding. The idea that our instinct has been designed specifically for raw food (and only for raw food) has been around for centuries, and is certainly one of the hotest topics in the history of both scientific and naturopathic hygienism.
If you read "Lectures on the science of human life" by Sylvester Graham (1839) , you will find that the whole book deals with the matter of human food instinct although from a purely vegetarian/biblical/puritan/naturopathic point of view . Now if you turn away from naturopathic litterature to scientific litterature produced by (then) contemporary military physicians (during the so-called "Romantic" period) you will find equivalent treatises on food instinct written from a non vegetarian /non puritan/spiritual perspective. Obviously their goals and their audience were not the same : while Graham was trying to catch the largest possible audience to evangelize masses of american drunkards, military physicians were trying to elaborate a theory of human food instinct putting together elements from various disciplines, to call the attention of fellow scientists. Graham was making a business while military physicians were working behind the curtains.
Military physicians of the XIXth c. remained unimpressed by the then rising tide of vegetarian sects and their failed attempt (by Graham and the likes) to "take over" the idea of food instinct. It is an historical fact that vegetarianism , as an hygienist theory , litteraly came "out of the blue" at the beginning of the XIXth century, without any historical precedent in the western world (apart from the so- called phytagorean sect ). Military physicians who adhered to the age- old (warfare like ) tradition of instinctive hygienism, had no reason to abandon their omnivorous stronghold for a more fashionable vegetarian theory of human food instinct.
Both currents of thought (the "naturo-vegetarian" and the "militaro-omnivorous") remained opposed. But this did not prevent them from sharing all sorts of heretical findings/hypothesis on other medical subjects.
"I doubt very much this T.L. Cleave also developed the same completely new theories about bacteria / viruses, immune system response (tolerance – intolerance), autoimmune diseases, etc. as GCB did."
You must be kidding. Burger has no more invented those theories than he has invented the durian or the idea of food instinct. In every field of science , you will find heretic minds who constantly produce heretic theories which can be made compatible with an heretic food hygiene theory . You may even find scientific medical journals publishing research papers which are considered too hypothetical or too heretical to be published in mainstream scientific journals. The choice is yours : if you need an alternative, all-encompassing, theory in the field of virology, immunology, allergology, I can fetch a dozen for you.
Cultural differences also account for the variety of alternative theories. In allergology , the UK approach to natural "immunization" against environmental antigens has gone as far as recommending to shake the dust bag of your vacuum cleaner above the nose of your baby so that his immune system may be in touch with natural antigens at the earliest stage of his life. From a french physician point of view , this recommendation may border on insanity .
Have you done any research in history of immunology to determine whether Burger is a true genius or a mere plagiarist ?
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 19, 2014, 09:29:08 am
You say "Paleophil gives references and I don't" . That's perfectly true.
But look here : Paleophil does not appear to make sense of his discovery about Cleave's paper. On the one hand, he realizes that Cleave and Burger share the same theoretical background/ source of inspiration (which is obviously true). On the other hand , he is confused by the fact that Cleave, contrary to Burger, does not recommend to follow a purely raw diet.
Paleophil does not seem to understand that : a) had Cleave concluded his article by proposing to adhere to a strictly raw diet, his article might have been rejected by the editors of the medical journal . b) Cleave's intention was not to create a raw food sectarian movement, but simply to promote fresh ideas on how the food instinct theory could inspire physicians to help improve the daily fare of the average english household.
So I'm helping you realize the importance of CLeave's paper, and its significance for the history of food instinct.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Iguana on February 19, 2014, 04:47:50 pm
OK, we won’t start it all over again in English. For those interested in your stance that GCB is vile plagiarist, here is the link to the comprehensive witness given by Jean-Daniel Delévaux who has been there ever since the very beginning of the instinctive nutrition development in 1964 and closely took part in this research along with his friends Guy-Claude Burger and wife Nicole. The answer of GCB is also there, 2 posts below. http://paleocru.rawpaleodietforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,27.msg459.html#msg459 (http://paleocru.rawpaleodietforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,27.msg459.html#msg459) Google translation http://tinyurl.com/qhzeaov (http://tinyurl.com/qhzeaov)
You obviously have a personal grudge with GCB. I guess he offend you somehow and you’ve been seeking vengeance for a quarter of a century! Or perhaps you’re so bitter that despite your terrific intelligence you couldn’t discover yourself what he discovered, thus you assume he couldn’t possibly discover it himself out of the blue from scratch…
So, according to you, it’s now military physicians who pioneered the instincto! What about the Nazi pedophils or the “right wing Christian” (LOL) you talked about previously in your senseless rants?
Cleave's intention was not to create a raw food sectarian movement
If you mean that GCB is a plagiarist whose intention was “to create a raw food sectarian movement”, that is a plain defamation which will require the locking of this this topic.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 21, 2014, 07:14:20 am
...Paleophil does not appear to make sense of his discovery about Cleave's paper. On the one hand, he realizes that Cleave and Burger share the same theoretical background/ source of inspiration (which is obviously true). On the other hand , he is confused by the fact that Cleave, contrary to Burger, does not recommend to follow a purely raw diet.
Paleophil does not seem to understand that : a) had Cleave concluded his article by proposing to adhere to a strictly raw diet, his article might have been rejected by the editors of the medical journal . b) Cleave's intention was not to create a raw food sectarian movement, but simply to promote fresh ideas on how the food instinct theory could inspire physicians to help improve the daily fare of the average english household.
If Cleave avoided "proposing to adhere to a strictly raw diet" because "his article might have been rejected," then that doesn't mean I'm confused or don't understand, it means only that Cleave did not include that proposal.
Since I have no dog in this hunt and you two have access to information that I do not, I'll leave this debate to you two.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 21, 2014, 08:14:47 pm
Iguana : you might have an engineering background, you seem to be lacking some basics in history.
a) Amongst all the areas of medical specialization, military medicine is the one who values the most the tradition and the knowledge from the past. b) Even though it would be hard to demonstrate, it is very likely that, compared to other medical specialties, it has been thoroughly moved/ infused by Christian values for a much longer period of time . c) It is an undisputed fact that there has always been a greater proportion of devout Christians in the profession of arms than in any other professions. This is true throughout the Christian world, and it is also true in France. d) unless you prove me wrong (my documentation might not be complete), the only article favourable to paleo diet (not to instincto though ) which was ever published in a french newspaper ( the latter term to be understood as "journal d'opinion politique", ie excluding scientific magazines ) was published in a far right newspaper with a strong "catholique nationaliste" leaning called "Minute". e) On the other hand, if you want to know what the French Christian leftist press think of paleo diet, you have to buy the December 2013 issue of Golias ( I have the pdf file of the issue) . A perfect illustration of the old saying which goes that journalism is about talking on issues on which you don't have the slightest clue; and a sad exemple of french gloubi boulga intended to scare the most destitute and generous minds amongst our compatriots.
One thing the Golias journalist has perfectly understood, however, is that there must be somehow a link between the sectarian movements of Dr Joyeux (a French Catho-traditionalist, cancer specialist, who openly favors an all-raw diet) and the likes of Burger, Comby , the cereal free movement ..... However, I'm afraid this link goes well beyond his reckoning capacity. As much as it goes well beyond your reckoning capacity.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 21, 2014, 08:17:24 pm
c) It is an undisputed fact that there has always been a greater proportion of devout Christians in the profession of arms than in any other professions. This is true throughout the Christian world, and it is also true in France.
What about the clergy profession? :D
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: JeuneKoq on February 23, 2014, 01:31:48 am
I think it doesn't matter who was the one to put the dietary instinct to light first, be it GCB or the army...
Earth didn't start rotating around the Sun when Copernicus discovered heliocentrism, as evolution did not take its first step when Darwin initially published his works on it. It doesn't matter as long as the individuals remain enlightened and truthful in their sayings and writings.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Iguana on February 23, 2014, 02:02:04 am
Absolutely! It matters for Ungullible only. ;) It even matters so much to him that he's been unsuccessfully searching in ancient obscure texts during about 25 years to try to prove that GCB is a plagiarist...
He even offered 1000 € to get a recording of one of GCB seminars and paid that amount to... GCB himself who gladly send it on a CD! But we haven't got any news about it ever since. ROFL! ;D
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 23, 2014, 02:14:58 am
It doesn't matter as long as the individuals remain ...... truthful in their sayings and writings.
That's the whole point of the story. When you know someone is a pretender, it is easier for people to keep their critical sense awaken ( admittely, there are great individual differences in this respect ).
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: eveheart on February 23, 2014, 02:41:14 am
Earth didn't start rotating around the Sun when Copernicus discovered heliocentrism,...
... and further to punctuate the excellent point you are making, Copernicus is said to have been influenced by drawings and texts in Latin translations of the works of medieval Islamic astronomers, who made heliocentric orbital observations centuries earlier.
That's the whole point of the story. When you know someone is a pretender, it is easier for people to keep their critical sense awaken ( admittely, there are great individual differences in this respect ).
If we are to be on the lookout for these so-called pretenders, then every paleo diet book that arose after the first observation of the diet of paleolithic man would fall under suspicion.
GCB wrote a set of guidelines for modern man to rediscover instinctive eating. The book would not be needed by someone who was on a survival exercise in a jungle, but it helped clarify instinctive eating for me, living here in California's third largest city. His term, instinctotherapie, while a little too French for my everyday use, was useful when I read English translations of his works.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: JeuneKoq on February 23, 2014, 04:25:33 am
... and further to punctuate the excellent point you are making, Copernicus is said to have been influenced by drawings and texts in Latin translations of the works of medieval Islamic astronomers, who made heliocentric orbital observations centuries earlier.
That is perfectly true. According to wikipedia the first mention of heliocentrism dates back even further: it was originally mentioned in an Indian text that was written in between the ninth and thirteenth century before Jesus-Christ! Personally I think they already had the intuition Earth turned around the Sun even in the prehistoric era, man already trying to figure out the mysteries of this giant ball of light in the sky... Anyway I should've probably written "rediscovered heliocentrism" instead. Thanks for pointing that out Eve :)
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: eveheart on February 23, 2014, 07:31:50 am
Anyway I should've probably written "rediscovered heliocentrism" instead.
Not at all. Your example shows that, in discovery, only the expression is new. The truth that is discovered was always there, and must be discovered anew all the time.
Title: Re: Instinctive nutrition and the Army
Post by: Ungullible on February 23, 2014, 08:01:34 pm
He even offered 1000 € to get a recording of one of GCB seminars and paid that amount to... GCB himself who gladly send it on a CD! But we haven't got any news about it ever since. ROFL! ;D
Hold your breath Iguana : I'll retire in a couple of years. I will then have ample time to immerse myself again in Burgers' introductory course, to prepare my future seminars on food instinct in a scientific, religious and political perspective. The seminars will be given alternatively in french and english and they will cover several centuries in the history of physiology and medicine, until the death of those german physicians who were trained during the nazi era.
For the time being, I have several other irons in the fire.