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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: CatTreats on April 14, 2014, 01:42:54 am

Title: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 14, 2014, 01:42:54 am
Hey guys. As some of you know I've been back to 100% raw foods for about 3 weeks now.

Since two nights ago, I've really lacked any urge to eat any raw meats (seafood included). And it's not like I'm craving cooked food either. Literally, everything just sounds bland, and it even tastes bland when I eat it (which I know is a sign that you don't need it). I've done this with an assortment of meats and fish - even cuts with lots of fat and the fat is just meh. Egg yolks have lost their appeal, too, and they were tasting delicious for a while. Fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.

What do you guys do when you lack appetite or cravings? I still feel somewhat hungry, but not ravenous.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Sorentus on April 14, 2014, 01:51:14 am
Hell I wish I knew, I crave food 24/7 no matter how much I eat and even poop seem appetizing to me (sarcasm). Apparently lack of appetite can be attributed to zinc or copper deficiency, which seems unlikely giving that it's concentrated in meat. Muscle meat barely has copper but has lots of zinc while organ has lots of copper and a good amount of zinc (depending on the organ) and oyster has lots of both.

If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 14, 2014, 02:02:54 am
Hell I wish I knew, I crave food 24/7 no matter how much I eat and even poop seem appetizing to me (sarcasm).

Yeah, I'm generally an EATING MACHINE. So this lack of interest in anything is puzzling. I just hope I can start craving raw meats the way everyone else does soon.

Apparently lack of appetite can be attributed to zinc or copper deficiency, which seems unlikely giving that it's concentrated in meat. Muscle meat barely has copper but has lots of zinc while organ has lots of copper and a good amount of zinc (depending on the organ) and oyster has lots of both.

I thought zinc was more concentrated in shellfish, and copper in organ - both of which I'm not eating enough of. I need to get organ meat into my life ... this Tuesday I will. Only been having small bits of liver as my organ meat.

If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)

No real issues with sugar, but I'd be concerned that I'll start making myself need honey with my meat just to like it haha.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 14, 2014, 02:06:22 am
What do you guys do when you lack appetite or cravings? I still feel somewhat hungry, but not ravenous.

If nothing is attractive, then what do you think we should do?

You say “fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.” Why don’t you want to eat just fruit for a day or two? Perhaps even a single meal of fruits will restore your appetite for other foods. Do you have enough choice? Celeriac, sweet potatoes, fennel, broccoli, cauliflower,  green peas, tomatoes, red pepper, various nuts, dates, honey, perhaps sugar cane, carob, etc?

 
If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)

That’s the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read.  :o Sorry, Sorentus.

I just hope I can start craving raw meats the way everyone else does soon.

Everyone? Not me, not always.

Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 14, 2014, 02:31:07 am
If nothing is attracting, then what do you think we should do?

I was going to assume fasting, but wasn't sure if that's what I need to do since I'm still feeling somewhat hungry.

You say “fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.” Why don’t you want to eat just fruit for a day or two? Perhaps even a single meal of fruits will restore your appetite for other foods. Do you have enough choice? Celeriac, sweet potatoes, fennel, broccoli, cauliflower,  green peas, tomatoes, red pepper, various nuts, dates, honey, perhaps sugar cane, carob, etc?

I don't eat many vegetables, just because I find the majority of them extremely unappealing in flavor (raw or cooked), and I don't feel as good when I eat more than just a pinch of something. Onion is the only thing I eat regularly, and mainly as a flavor/garnish to something. I also though that sweet potatoes and other tubers had more anti-nutrients than benefits when raw. Or maybe that's white potatoes.

I guess I'll just eat some fruit and see how I feel. I just worried because eating a good amount of fruit causes digestion upsets.


Everyone? Not me, not always.

Well, I just meant in general. It seems like most of the community here will have major cravings for raw meat, bone marrow, liver, etc.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Sorentus on April 14, 2014, 02:31:46 am
That’s the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read.  :o Sorry, Sorentus.
eveheart spread honey on her meat :P
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 14, 2014, 03:09:27 am
Thanks Iguana - I went ahead and ate a banana. Now, my raw fatty beef tastes delicious. Maybe that's all I needed. ^_^
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: eveheart on April 14, 2014, 04:21:17 am
eveheart spread honey on her meat :P

Never!!! And I'll thank you to let me speak for myself. At the very least, look up a possible reference and insert a link to where you find someone else's statements, but never pretend to know something that you haven't even bothered to verify.

What makes me go ballistic? Well, for one thing, I rarely eat two unrelated foods at the same time. Honey and meat don't go together at all. For another thing, meat is not a sweet food, so putting honey on it would be the same as seasoning it. All my posts on this forum pretty well support the fact that I don't season my food to alter its taste or appeal. Finally, I don't eat honey because I don't have an attraction to that intense sweetness.

Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Projectile Vomit on April 14, 2014, 06:59:42 am
I sometimes reach a point where I'm just not hungry, and a few times each year might to a spontaneous fast for as many as 3-5 days on account of never feeling hungry enough to eat. I never force myself to eat anything. I don't see a point to doing this. Sometimes our body just wants to clean itself out and rest its digestive processes.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 14, 2014, 07:06:41 am
Quote
Quote from: Sorentus on Today at 12:51:14 pm
If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)

That’s the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read.  :o Sorry, Sorentus.
Huh? It's delectable. I find that the contrasting taste of the honey complements the meat beautifully. I've seen multiple raw Paleo dieters report eating this combo in the past. Unless one is adhering to severely strict no-combining rules that are of little interest to me, or to a bland low-brain-reward diet to lose weight, or some other such approach, I can't imagine why this would be "crazy." The OP was talking about loss of appetite, which honey seems ideally suited for, not weight loss. I tend toward inadequate appetite and underweight by any reasonable standard, so I sometimes add raw (fermented) honey or other flavor enhancement to meat to help keep my appetite up towards a natural level and it seems to help.

Here's a Korean beef tartare recipe that includes honey: http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/yukhoe (http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/yukhoe)

and an American recipe (which also includes vodka, which I'll note that I'm not recommending, in case anyone gets the notion to create a straw man out of that):
http://taste.fourseasons.com/recipe/beef-tartare-with-caviar-apple-sorbet-and-green-apple-vanilla-vodka-shot/ (http://taste.fourseasons.com/recipe/beef-tartare-with-caviar-apple-sorbet-and-green-apple-vanilla-vodka-shot/)

Wild raw honey (with grubs, which is an animal flesh food that includes protein as well as fat) was also rated the top-preferred staple food by Hadza hunter-gatherer males in a study (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07601616.pdf (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07601616.pdf)), so it's perfectly natural to like honey, especially for males, apparently. Honey is an animal product and in the wild it comes naturally combined with animal food (grubs and sometimes dead adult bees). So it's actually more natural to mix it with an animal food than anything else.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Sorentus on April 14, 2014, 07:33:50 am
Never!!! And I'll thank you to let me speak for myself. At the very least, look up a possible reference and insert a link to where you find someone else's statements, but never pretend to know something that you haven't even bothered to verify.

What makes me go ballistic? Well, for one thing, I rarely eat two unrelated foods at the same time. Honey and meat don't go together at all. For another thing, meat is not a sweet food, so putting honey on it would be the same as seasoning it. All my posts on this forum pretty well support the fact that I don't season my food to alter its taste or appeal. Finally, I don't eat honey because I don't have an attraction to that intense sweetness.

My bad, it was paper_clips43, chill. I didn't mean to insult you.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 14, 2014, 08:58:52 am
I sometimes reach a point where I'm just not hungry, and a few times each year might to a spontaneous fast for as many as 3-5 days on account of never feeling hungry enough to eat. I never force myself to eat anything. I don't see a point to doing this. Sometimes our body just wants to clean itself out and rest its digestive processes.

I've had that happen before. If I'm not hungry, I don't force myself to eat. This was just a little different - nothing sounded good barring fruit slightly, but I still felt a bit hungry. Eating a little fruit did the trick though. I had a banana and then about a quarter of a pound of fatty beef. The fat tasted delicious all of a sudden, something that I normally don't like as much. I was very pleased.

Here's a Korean beef tartare recipe that includes honey: http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/yukhoe (http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/yukhoe)

I'm very familiar with Korean foods, having studied in Korea, and have made Yukhoe myself a few times. It's one of my favorites. I'm just trying to make myself eat plain raw foods as well to make sure I'm not just covering up the flavors. I'm not even a fan of plain honey, actually. I don't dislike raw meat, but I haven't grown to really crave those flavors as much. Like marrow is still something I can't eat. But as I mentioned, fat has suddenly gotten more delicious, which is great progress.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: edmon171 on April 14, 2014, 10:30:17 am
Things that make me hungry: watching the food network, watching nature shows with big cats, seeing or smelling people eat around me, hand-feeding meat to the dogs. Fasting won't always make me very hungry right away, but I am starting already in ketosis. Most people suffer when starting a fast because they are still running on glucose. After a couple of days I get a little hungry here and there. If I go any longer than that, the first thing I eat will taste like the best thing I ever ate. If I do any kind of strenuous exercise while fasting I will get ravenous and have to break the fast. Also if I just put the food in front of me and smell it or touch it while fasting that will do the trick. The longest fast I've done was 14 days, which was quite an experience. After day 5 everything changed, I went into what I call "hunting mode." My vision, hearing, and smell became extremely sensitive and accurate. I felt energized and light on my feet, my thinking was crystal clear, and I was sharp as a tack. I only had hunger on days 2, 3, 5, and 7, then nothing. On day 14 I still wasn't hungry but I was contemplating breaking the fast so I had a look in the fridge and saw this enormous rib steak sitting right in front. I was like a lion stalking my prey, I couldn't look away or close the door. I actually drooled on the floor a little, which snapped me out of it. Best steak ever.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 15, 2014, 03:13:29 am
 
Huh? It's delectable. I find that the contrasting taste of the honey complements the meat beautifully. I've seen multiple raw Paleo dieters report eating this combo in the past.
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have thought something like “I’m fed of eating this raw meat alone without any mixing with a sweet food… let’s go and an get some honey on that tree top over there to poor it onto the meat, otherwise I’m gonna get underweight for eating less meat than my raw paleo tribe fellows.” Thinking further ahead, this genius anthropoid would have then realized that by grilling, salting and spicing the meat he would be able to eat even more and gain even more weight!   

Quote
Unless one is adhering to severely strict no-combining rules that are of little interest to me, or to a bland low-brain-reward diet to lose weight, or some other such approach, I can't imagine why this would be "crazy." The OP was talking about loss of appetite, which honey seems ideally suited for, not weight loss. I tend toward inadequate appetite and underweight by any reasonable standard, so I sometimes add raw (fermented) honey or other flavor enhancement to meat to help keep my appetite up towards a natural level and it seems to help.
CatTreats wrote she lost appetite for meat. Doesn’t it obviously mean that she should have eaten something else? As a matter of fact, a single banana was enough to reestablish a rough alimentary balance which allowed her to enjoy meat again.

With all the discussions we’ve had since 2009, I would have thought you know my ideas about it. Well, let’s go for one more round…

1. Meat and honey in the same meal are really a bad association, impairing proper digestion.
2. Proteins and sugars tend to combine to form AGEs during digestion, even at body temperature.
3. By mixing food before ingestion, you can’t know how much of each is the proper amount. In this example, your body may currently either need honey but no meat or meat but no honey. It may need both, but you can’t know how much of each.
4. Mixing and spicing allow yourself to ingest more of a given food than what you actually need, thus you get into an overload of some of the specific compounds contained in that food. You've  then entered into a vicious circle because as long as this overload is not spent, you won’t be able to eat the same food again without spicing it, mixing it... and eventually cooking it!


Points 3 and 4 explain why the entire human population on this planet fell into mixing, processing and cooking food, the trend being irreversible unless these points are understood.   ;) 

Quote
Wild raw honey (with grubs, which is an animal flesh food that includes protein as well as fat) was also rated the top-preferred staple food by Hadza hunter-gatherer males in a study (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07601616.pdf (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07601616.pdf)), so it's perfectly natural to like honey, especially for males, apparently. Honey is an animal product and in the wild it comes naturally combined with animal food (grubs and sometimes dead adult bees). So it's actually more natural to mix it with an animal food than anything else.
It’s natural mixed with bee brood or grubs, but you won’t find a mixture of beef and honey in nature!  :)
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 15, 2014, 05:54:21 am
 
CatTreats wrote she lost appetite for meat. Doesn’t it obviously mean that she should have eaten something else? As a matter of fact, a single banana was enough to reestablish a rough alimentary balance which allowed her to enjoy meat again.

It was more that I just had no interest in anything except for fruit really. The only reason I hesitated to just go for the fruit is because I'm always happy to eat fruit, hungry or not. So I wasn't sure if this was the right choice.


1. Meat and honey in the same meal are really a bad association, impairing proper digestion.
2. Proteins and sugars tend to combine to form AGEs during digestion, even at body temperature.

Aw! This is disappointing. As mentioned above, Yukhoe (uses both meat and honey) is definitely a treat. I've never noticed digestion issues, but I'll also say that I'm not experienced enough to tell when something is wrong unless it's directly discomforting.

 
3. By mixing food before ingestion, you can’t know how much of each is the proper amount. In this example, your body may currently either need honey but no meat or meat but no honey. It may need both, but you can’t know how much of each.

I do agree with this. If it continues to taste good, we can't know if it's because our body needs something in the honey or the meat.

  4. Mixing and spicing allow yourself to ingest more of a given food than what you actually need, thus you get into an overload of some of the specific compounds contained in that food. You've  then entered into a vicious circle because as long as this overload is not spent, you won’t be able to eat the same food again without spicing it, mixing it... and eventually cooking it!

Agreed again. I do like to enjoy fun recipes with my food, though. You have to enjoy your food, or you're not living. That's not to say that unaltered, unmixed foods can't be enjoyable. I think my favorite thing so far has been ripping apart a freshly cut sockeye salmon head and eating everything, plain of course.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: paper_clips43 on April 15, 2014, 08:00:27 am
Aw! This is disappointing. As mentioned above, Yukhoe (uses both meat and honey) is definitely a treat. I've never noticed digestion issues, but I'll also say that I'm not experienced enough to tell when something is wrong unless it's directly discomforting

I have been eating raw meat for two years now. After much experimentation I feel I digest meat better with raw honey than with out. My mood is improved as well. Meat alone or meat with fat and I feel depressed. Either lots of fruit before meat or eating honey during meat meal and I feel good.

Experimentation probably trumps all dietary advice, science, and history.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: cherimoya_kid on April 15, 2014, 08:59:04 am


Experimentation probably trumps all dietary advice, science, and history.

It's when they all agree that you should pay attention.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 15, 2014, 09:43:24 am
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have thought something like “I’m fed of eating this raw meat alone without any mixing with a sweet food… let’s go and an get some honey on that tree top over there to poor it onto the meat...
They didn't have to think about that, since honey often comes naturally with bee grub (larvae) meat, as you acknowledged, which contains animal protein and fat. The ancient ancestors of humans included insectivores and omnivores that ate insects, honey and tree saps, and sometimes at the same time. Bee grubs were a good choice by GCB to add to his diet. Bee grubs are also reportedly the favorite part of the hive for bears. It makes no sense to assume that we can't eat any raw animal protein or fat at all with honey in spite of that just because of some dietary theories of modern gurus, except maybe as a weight loss strategy (though one study found little benefit for this from food combining - "Similar weight loss with low-energy food combining or balanced diets," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10805507 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10805507)) or for people with extremely poor carb tolerance (though mine is very poor and even I can handle some RF honey with meat).

Honey ants, a favorite food of Australian aborigines, even contain sugary honeydew from tree saps within their bodies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwzzbjYHC3w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwzzbjYHC3w)

The notion that one should artificially restrict one's diet so as to never eat sweet or carby at the same meal with protein is a modern reductionist one. Even within freshly killed or fermented raw whole animal carcasses there are plenty of carbs (estimated at around 15-20% or more in the case of wild Arctic animal sources - http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html)). It's actually one of the benefits of eating meats raw (though the animal carbs and prebiotics unfortunately deplete over time if not frozen or traditionally fermented, so that supermarket meat contains much less than wild sources). Heck, you'd probably need a laboratory or to at least thoroughly cook the meat to eat a truly ZC purist meal, if it's even possible. Breastmilk, nuts, seeds and underground storage organs also contain both carbs and proteins and sometimes fats, in varying proportions. Our species wouldn't have survived long in the wild if we could only eat macronutrients separately.

I have been eating raw meat for two years now. After much experimentation I feel I digest meat better with raw honey than with out.
It seems that way for me too and there is a plausible explanation. Raw honey contains enzymes and acids that help can improve general digestion and it seems to improve mine some.

While I'm quite skeptical of some of Aajonus' claims, he seemed to have a lot of experience with honey and was quite a connoisseur, and he specifically claimed that raw honey helps digest meat, which fits with my and Paperclip's experience:
Quote
"Unheated honey contains an insulin-like substance that is produced by bees when collecting nectar. That insulin-like substance converts 90% of the carbohydrate in nectar into enzymes that help digest, assimilate and utilize protein. Unheated honey is a wonderful sweet food that helps digest all types of meat."
The Recipe for Living Without Disease, 2nd edition, p. 31
When I looked into that claim, I found that insulin-like substances were indeed found in honey, that are called insulin-like polypeptides. (For example, see Kramer K.J., Childs C.N., Spiers R.D., Jacobs R.M. (1982) Purification of insulinlike peptides from insects haemolymph and royal jelly. Insect Biochemistry 12(1):91-98.)

Raw honey is one of the most acidic (not to be confused with acidifying) natural foods (http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-acid-is-honey (http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-acid-is-honey)).

I find that eating some other food with the honey also helps avoid a burning sensation in the stomach when I eat a bit too much of such a highly acidic food alone, without benefit of meat, such as would come from the grubs that often accompany it in nature, or other food. Plus, as honey improved my digestion some over time, I became less prone to stomach burning.

Fermented honey also contains bacteria that can assist, though they likely prefer carby foods.

Plus, meat is reportedly an especially good trigger for stomach acid, which aids in digesting most foods, including carby foods.

As has been discussed by you and me and others many times before, the dose makes the poison when it comes to various plant and animal toxins. It's not possible to avoid them 100%. Small amounts may even be hormetically beneficial, giving our maintenance, repair and defense systems a workout and thus robustifying us, instead of letting our systems atrophy.

Plus, the enzymes and other elements of raw honey actually help in breaking down and detoxifying AGEs: http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/HoneyandAGEs.htm (http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/HoneyandAGEs.htm) and honeys high in methylglyoxal are actually considered more medicinal (via knowledge learned largely from actual experience), rather than less, despite the theoretical concerns about AGEs.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: van on April 15, 2014, 10:24:59 am
I have been eating raw meat for two years now. After much experimentation I feel I digest meat better with raw honey than with out. My mood is improved as well. Meat alone or meat with fat and I feel depressed. Either lots of fruit before meat or eating honey during meat meal and I feel good.

Experimentation probably trumps all dietary advice, science, and history.

I suspect that you haven't  allowed time for your body to use fat as fuel..   Fruit and meat and honey will give rise to blood sugar and hence insulin.   This may 'feel' good, but I would look into long term possibilities if I were you maintaining this dietary habit.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: van on April 15, 2014, 10:48:41 am
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have thought something like “I’m fed of eating this raw meat alone without any mixing with a sweet food… let’s go and an get some honey on that tree top over there to poor it onto the meat, otherwise I’m gonna get underweight for eating less meat than my raw paleo tribe fellows.” Thinking further ahead, this genius anthropoid would have then realized that by grilling, salting and spicing the meat he would be able to eat even more and gain even more weight!   
CatTreats wrote she lost appetite for meat. Doesn’t it obviously mean that she should have eaten something else? As a matter of fact, a single banana was enough to reestablish a rough alimentary balance which allowed her to enjoy meat again.

With all the discussions we’ve had since 2009, I would have thought you know my ideas about it. Well, let’s go for one more round…

1. Meat and honey in the same meal are really a bad association, impairing proper digestion.
2. Proteins and sugars tend to combine to form AGEs during digestion, even at body temperature.
3. By mixing food before ingestion, you can’t know how much of each is the proper amount. In this example, your body may currently either need honey but no meat or meat but no honey. It may need both, but you can’t know how much of each.
4. Mixing and spicing allow yourself to ingest more of a given food than what you actually need, thus you get into an overload of some of the specific compounds contained in that food. You've  then entered into a vicious circle because as long as this overload is not spent, you won’t be able to eat the same food again without spicing it, mixing it... and eventually cooking it!


Points 3 and 4 explain why the entire human population on this planet fell into mixing, processing and cooking food, the trend being irreversible unless these points are understood.   ;) 
It’s natural mixed with bee brood or grubs, but you won’t find a mixture of beef and honey in nature!  :)


I find your imagination limited when it comes to what might have happened over the last many thousands of years.    It's as if you draw a little cartoon, like the one where the early paleos say humorously something about getting tired of eating meat....   Maybe.   But just as likely, if you care to speculate,,,    one hunting party goes out and comes back with a fresh kill.   The tribe sits and eats, knawing  away,,,   the second hunting party comes back with a huge bee hive full of honey.   Can't you imagine how they Just might get a little honey in their mouths at the same time that they have meat in there too?   Seems likely to me that over the course of thousands of years that that very scene may have happened enough times for those peoples to make up their own mind as to whether they liked the taste combo or not. 
    And even if it never ever happened ever... so what.   They didn't create the Bible of Food. 
    And by the way, I'm not promoting in the least the combination, just promoting the idea that to define what happened is what should happen now, is conjecture at the most.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: goodsamaritan on April 15, 2014, 01:10:32 pm
Hey guys. As some of you know I've been back to 100% raw foods for about 3 weeks now.

Since two nights ago, I've really lacked any urge to eat any raw meats (seafood included). And it's not like I'm craving cooked food either. Literally, everything just sounds bland, and it even tastes bland when I eat it (which I know is a sign that you don't need it). I've done this with an assortment of meats and fish - even cuts with lots of fat and the fat is just meh. Egg yolks have lost their appeal, too, and they were tasting delicious for a while. Fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.

What do you guys do when you lack appetite or cravings? I still feel somewhat hungry, but not ravenous.


There are days when I don't feel like eating as well.  It's normal.
Some here do intermittent fasting, not eating 1 day a week.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 15, 2014, 02:53:59 pm
They didn't have to think about that, since honey often comes naturally with bee grub (larvae) meat, as you acknowledged, which contains animal protein and fat. The ancient ancestors of humans included insectivores and omnivores that ate insects, honey and tree saps, and sometimes at the same time. Bee grubs were a good choice by GCB to add to his diet. Bee grubs are also reportedly the favorite part of the hive for bears. It makes no sense to assume that we can't eat any raw animal protein or fat at all with honey in spite of that just because of some dietary theories of modern gurus, …
I didn’t assume that « we can't eat any raw animal protein or fat at all with honey » at the same meal, I only notice that’s pouring honey on beef or whatever meat / fish /eggs is a modern artifice which prevents us to properly dose the respective amounts of meat and honey and may present some digestive  issues. It can’t be matched to the consumption of bee grubs along with the honey and wax they are embedded  in, which is a perfectly natural occurrence. 

Quote
The notion that one should artificially restrict one's diet so as to never eat sweet or carby at the same meal with protein is a modern reductionist one.
I didn’t assume that either!

Quote
Even within freshly killed or fermented raw whole animal carcasses there are plenty of carbs (estimated at around 15-20% or more in the case of wild Arctic animal sources - http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html)). It's actually one of the benefits of eating meats raw (though the animal carbs and prebiotics unfortunately deplete over time if not frozen or traditionally fermented, so that supermarket meat contains much less than wild sources). Heck, you'd probably need a laboratory or to at least thoroughly cook the meat to eat a truly ZC purist meal, if it's even possible. Breastmilk, nuts, seeds and underground storage organs also contain both carbs and proteins and sometimes fats, in varying proportions. Our species wouldn't have survived long in the wild if we could only eat macronutrients separately.
Yes, I agree. Seems you read much more than I tried to say in my post!

Quote
It seems that way for me too and there is a plausible explanation. Raw honey contains enzymes and acids that help can improve general digestion and it seems to improve mine some.
Ok, I conceded that it may happen this way for some people, as long as the honey and the other foods are each properly dosed, which can only be assured by not mixed them before ingestion.

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While I'm quite skeptical of some of Aajonus' claims, he seemed to have a lot of experience with honey and was quite a connoisseur, and he specifically claimed that raw honey helps digest meat, which fits with my and Paperclip's experience:When I looked into that claim, I found that insulin-like substances were indeed found in honey, that are called insulin-like polypeptides. (For example, see Kramer K.J., Childs C.N., Spiers R.D., Jacobs R.M. (1982) Purification of insulinlike peptides from insects haemolymph and royal jelly. Insect Biochemistry 12(1):91-98.)
Everyone is different and has different needs. I currently can’t eat more than a microscopic amount of honey and although it would be fine with bee brood, I would not eat it just after meat / fish / eggs: I would wait at least a bit, perhaps half an hour or one hour to see if I’m still hungry.
 
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I find that eating some other food with the honey also helps avoid a burning sensation in the stomach when I eat a bit too much of such a highly acidic food alone, without benefit of meat, such as would come from the grubs that often accompany it in nature, or other food. Plus, as honey improved my digestion some over time, I became less prone to stomach burning.
Yes, when we eat a bit too much of something, enzymes contained in another food can help digestion. But the best would be to avoid eating too much of anything.  ;)

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Fermented honey also contains bacteria that can assist, though they likely prefer carby foods.

Plus, meat is reportedly an especially good trigger for stomach acid, which aids in digesting most foods, including carby foods.

As has been discussed by you and me and others many times before, the dose makes the poison when it comes to various plant and animal toxins. It's not possible to avoid them 100%. Small amounts may even be hormetically beneficial, giving our maintenance, repair and defense systems a workout and thus robustifying us, instead of letting our systems atrophy.

Plus, the enzymes and other elements of raw honey actually help in breaking down and detoxifying AGEs: http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/HoneyandAGEs.htm (http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/HoneyandAGEs.htm) and honeys high in methylglyoxal are actually considered more medicinal (via knowledge learned largely from actual experience), rather than less, despite the theoretical concerns about AGEs.
Thanks for those interesting info. 
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 15, 2014, 03:02:38 pm
 
I do agree with this. If it continues to taste good, we can't know if it's because our body needs something in the honey or the meat.

Agreed again. I do like to enjoy fun recipes with my food, though. You have to enjoy your food, or you're not living. That's not to say that unaltered, unmixed foods can't be enjoyable. I think my favorite thing so far has been ripping apart a freshly cut sockeye salmon head and eating everything, plain of course.

I’m relieved and glad that you, at least, understand me! So I feel less lonely on this planet…  :)

The main reason why I’ve been sticking to 100% raw paleo in instinctive way since January 1987 is because I enjoy my food much more this way. Each meal is now a real enjoyment.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 15, 2014, 03:07:39 pm
 
I find your imagination limited when it comes to what might have happened over the last many thousands of years.

Van, I’m not considering the last thousands of years, but the millions years before. 
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: goodsamaritan on April 15, 2014, 06:05:45 pm

I’m relieved and glad that you, at least, understand me! So I feel less lonely on this planet…  :)

The main reason why I’ve been sticking to 100% raw paleo in instinctive way since January 1987 is because I enjoy my food much more this way. Each meal is now a real enjoyment.


I lean towards the enjoyment part too. 

Newbies need to taste and taste and taste around to get a feel of real food.  It's just like going to a fruit stand with many different fruits.  I assume even SAD people eat raw fruit.  Each has its own taste uncondimented.  It's the same for animal food and root crops and nuts and vegetables.

FYI to the original poster,  when I started out I shopped around and threw away a lot of icky stuff, bad tasting farmed fish, bad tasting grain fed meat, bad tasting fruit, bad tasting root crops, bad tasting vegetables.

I even moved my office to the big wet market so I could eat all the animal food and fruit fresh fresh fresh any time during the day.  Our office was there for a year. That much dedication.

I believe in Vitamin VARIETY.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: edmon171 on April 15, 2014, 06:44:17 pm
Mixing meat and plants should be either high fat with low carb plants or low fat with starch or sugars. This is what is seen in nature, the hunter would get the fatty tissue and organs first and maybe some stomach contents and is satisfied, the scavenger is left with pieces of lean tissue stuck to the bone and is still hungry and will seek out other sources of energy, like starchy roots and sweet fruits or honey. Otherwise you are taking two fuels and one of them will be stored while the other one gets burned, a good way to put on weight. Also a good way to cause insulin sensitivity. I would think having any two types of food separately is the more natural way and probably easier on your system in general. With the exception of fermented plants and leafy greens, as this would have been available in the stomach contents of a fresh kill. I've never seen a bear catch a salmon, carry it over to a beehive, dip it in honey, and then eat it. They just eat it and worry about what else is available the next time they are hungry.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 15, 2014, 07:17:03 pm
I don't "pour" honey. Our ancestors didn't exactly match and measure things out in precise proportions or doses, which are modern practices.

As I pointed out, a fresh raw animal carcass and various plant foods contain both carbs and proteins within them, so that in nature it's impossible to avoid mixing carbs with proteins and food combining theories are thus largely irrelevant to the natural world.

It's not a good sign if one's digestion is so poor that one can't even eat more than a microscopic amount of honey with meat.

Bee brood IS meat.

To each their own, but the original poster's question was regarding how to increase appetite, not how to avoid eating too much.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 15, 2014, 07:57:40 pm
 
I don't "pour" honey. Our ancestors didn't exactly match and measure things out in precise proportions or doses, which are modern practices.
I understood you mix honey and meat before ingestion,  am I wrong? All animals and our pre-fire ancestors precisely dosed everything they ate by using their olfactory and gustative senses.   

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As I pointed out, a fresh raw animal carcass and various plant foods contain both carbs and proteins within them, so that in nature it's impossible to avoid mixing carbs with proteins
Yes. Probably, the formation af AGEs in the stomach occurs only in insignificant amounts in normal conditions. 

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and food combining theories are thus largely irrelevant to the natural world.
In nature, there’s not so many possibilities to combine various foods because they are usually distant in space.

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It's not a good sign if one's digestion is so poor that one can't even eat more than a microscopic amount of honey with meat.
I don’t eat honey with meat. I eat it alone and I have no problem digesting it. I currently can’t eat more then half a teaspoon because it’s too sweet and it triggers a mouth burning feeling; not because I can’t digest it. 

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Bee brood IS meat.
Sorry for my misunderstanding of English. I thought “meat” = “viande” in French and for me it meant flesh of mammals, reptiles, marsupials and birds. Fish, shellfish, eggs, worms and insects were not “meat” for me, but perhaps it’s only a matter of language?

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To each their own, but the original poster's question was regarding how to increase appetite, not how to avoid eating too much. 
Ah… but if you eat too much, then won’t your appetite eventually decrease? On the contrary, if you eat little or no food for a while, wouldn’t your appetite subsequently increase?

I would think having any two types of food separately is the more natural way and probably easier on your system in general. With the exception of fermented plants and leafy greens, as this would have been available in the stomach contents of a fresh kill. I've never seen a bear catch a salmon, carry it over to a beehive, dip it in honey, and then eat it. They just eat it and worry about what else is available the next time they are hungry.

Exactly. This way was the norm during billions of years until some hominids were “smart enough” to mix and process different foods before ingestion. 
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: paper_clips43 on April 16, 2014, 05:07:03 am
I suspect that you haven't  allowed time for your body to use fat as fuel..   Fruit and meat and honey will give rise to blood sugar and hence insulin.   This may 'feel' good, but I would look into long term possibilities if I were you maintaining this dietary habit.

So what do you think my body is doing with all the fat I eat?

On average I eat 2 tablespoons of coconut oil, 4-6 tablespoons of butter, and roughly 6-8 ounces of animal fat per day.
I have no symptoms of malabsorption and I find I have increased energy with the more fat I eat. If I eat low fat I have less energy. That sounds to me like my body is using fat as an energy source. It might not be my MAIN energy source although it does seem to contribute to my increased well being, confidence, and positive outlook on life.

The more calories I eat in a day the better I feel. I have tested this many many times. Eating lots of carbs helps me eat more food.

Maybe one day I might come across evidence or self experimentation that would lead me to switch to a low carb diet with fat as my fuel source. Right now I just can not believe that is healthy for me. So why do something that I can't believe is healthy?

I am not sure why we have to debate this low carb high fat issue still. It seems, In my opinion, the answer is up to the individual and comes with no reason to question others choices unless otherwise specified to do so.

All I can do is share my experience and I try to do my best not to make assumptions about other peoples diet. Even if I had a day to day count of all the foods you eat I still wouldn't even come close to having enough information to make corrections and changes for your life.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: van on April 16, 2014, 07:24:17 am
I didn't perceive that from an earlier post, believing that mainly you were mostly eating fruit, honey and meat.    Then I don't know why you wrote how you feel when you eat only fat and meat.   So many variables here.   I know I feel better when I include sea weeds and some greens.  Now whether or not that is because they are RS or not, I don't know,, could be the trace minerals or something else.    I only have read that those who include lots of carbs with lots of fats tend not to become efficient fat burners, and maybe it simply passes out of you.  And I have also read about glycation from eating fat with sugar.     For myself, the more sugar or fruit and or honey include in my diet, the more I get blood sugar swings, and I have less stable energy, unless I treat or feed myself ongoing with more sugar.       It was interesting for me to learn years ago how the principal moderator of the WAI diet (basically fruit and fat/eggs/fish) had to add white sugar to his orange juice, and not just a little sugar, and not just a little orange juice,, for him to keep fueled throughout the day.  He would take gulps some where around every twenty minutes.  I'd love to see his blood work.
     You might want to pay attention to how often you feel the need to eat sugar/honey/ fruit to feel your best.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 16, 2014, 07:34:23 am
Sorry, Iguana, I'm not persuaded by the food combining theory. My experience with honey has been closer to Paperclips' than yours. I haven't experienced the problems you reported, nor any other noticeable problems, when eating a tiny bit of honey or fruit at the same meal as meat. Since all animals naturally come with some carbs within their tissues in the wild, not just live bee grubs in honey hives, it's natural to eat some carbs with animal foods, and since carbs in animal tissues decrease over time and thus are lower in the meats sold at markets, and since carbs are less concentrated in the muscle meats that modern diets emphasize than in other tissues, therefore including a reasonable amount of carby food with the carb-depleted meats of food markets actually makes some good sense for those who can tolerate it well. To each his own.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: goodsamaritan on April 16, 2014, 09:00:49 am
If the problem is increasing appetite, I have found salt and salty foods to increase appetite.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 16, 2014, 03:10:32 pm
Sorry, Iguana, I'm not persuaded by the food combining theory. My experience with honey has been closer to Paperclips' than yours. I haven't experienced the problems you reported, nor any other noticeable problems, when eating a tiny bit of honey or fruit at the same meal as meat.

I have no problems (which ones did I report??) eating a tiny bit of honey or fruit at the same meal as meat! It’s only that I don’t pre-mix anything, thus eating each food independently one after the other, preferably waiting at least some minutes and up to one hour or two in-between (depending of the amount). Don’t we e agree?

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Since all animals naturally come with some carbs within their tissues in the wild, not just live bee grubs in honey hives, it's natural to eat some carbs with animal foods, and since carbs in animal tissues decrease over time and thus are lower in the meats sold at markets, and since carbs are less concentrated in the muscle meats that modern diets emphasize than in other tissues, therefore including a reasonable amount of carby food with the carb-depleted meats of food markets actually makes some good sense for those who can tolerate it well. To each his own.

Do you buy regular commercial meat at food markets??

If the problem is increasing appetite, I have found salt and salty foods to increase appetite.

I fail to understand why someone would increase (or lessen) one’s appetite.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: TylerDurden on April 16, 2014, 06:34:26 pm
Iguana, your original definition of "meat"/"viande" is absolutely correct in English.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 16, 2014, 07:36:14 pm
Iguana, again, fresh raw wild animal/fish/insect/etc. foods contain carbs within them, so, no, I don't think it's necessary for most people to wait some minutes in between eating some meat and a tiny bit of honey or other carb.

I didn't say just "commercial meat." The carb content of any animal foods decreases over time after the kill.

If despite the key point that carbs are in all fresh raw animal foods in nature, you still think people need to wait between eating even tiny amounts of carb with protein, then perhaps we can agree to disagree. I hope you don't mind that I don't wish to debate semantics or other details endlessly.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Hanna on April 16, 2014, 09:25:54 pm
I would think having any two types of food separately is the more natural way and probably easier on your system in general. With the exception of fermented plants and leafy greens, as this would have been available in the stomach contents of a fresh kill.

… and as greens are eaten with other foods for example by apes.

I've never seen a bear catch a salmon, carry it over to a beehive, dip it in honey, and then eat it. They just eat it and worry about what else is available the next time they are hungry.

That’s how it is.  :) He also doesn’t carry the salmon to a beehive, eats the salmon, waits a few minutes and then eats the honey.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 16, 2014, 11:13:38 pm
Thanks, Tyler.

Phil, the point is that in nature we seldom find a lot of different foods at the same place and same time, unlike at home where we are in an artificial environment with plenty of different foodstuff easily available without any effort.

It’s not absolutely necessary to let a variable interlude between two foods, but it’s wise to ask oneself after having eaten something up to a point we felt we had enough of it:

- Am I still hungry?
- If yes,what other food is tempting me at the moment?
- Which one is the most appealing?
- Do I feel this other foodstuff will be ok digestion-wise with what I ate?


It’s not a matter of eating everything our instinct allow us to ingest, but to choose the food best corresponding to our current need.  It takes a certain time to check our feelings on these points.

It’s obvious to me that some foods interfere badly with the digestion of other foods. Once you got an indigestion because for example you ate bananas just after eating a good amount of meat, or durian after avocados, or avocados after almonds, or safus after meat, then you understand and you never do again such a mistake…   >:

The most different foods we mix in our stomach, the harder our digestion will be.   
   
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 17, 2014, 09:22:08 am
Phil, the point is that in nature we seldom find a lot of different foods at the same place and same time, unlike at home where we are in an artificial environment with plenty of different foodstuff easily available without any effort.
Van already addressed that here:
just as likely, if you care to speculate,,,    one hunting party goes out and comes back with a fresh kill.   The tribe sits and eats, knawing  away,,,   the second hunting party comes back with a huge bee hive full of honey.   Can't you imagine how they Just might get a little honey in their mouths at the same time that they have meat in there too?   Seems likely to me that over the course of thousands of years that that very scene may have happened enough times for those peoples to make up their own mind as to whether they liked the taste combo or not. 
And an article supporting him on this was posted today here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/do-u-think-we-have-the-same-gut-bacteria-like-this-african-tribe-for-rpd/msg121204/#msg121204 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/do-u-think-we-have-the-same-gut-bacteria-like-this-african-tribe-for-rpd/msg121204/#msg121204)

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It’s not absolutely necessary to let a variable interlude between two foods
Thanks for sharing an area of agreement.

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but it’s wise to ask oneself after having eaten something up to a point we felt we had enough of it:

- Am I still hungry?
- If yes,what other food is tempting me at the moment?
- Which one is the most appealing?
- Do I feel this other foodstuff will be ok digestion-wise with what I ate?
I didn't take Sorrentus' suggestion to imply a contradiction of all that.

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It’s obvious to me that some foods interfere badly with the digestion of other foods. Once you got an indigestion because for example you ate bananas just after eating a good amount of meat, or durian after avocados, or avocados after almonds, or safus after meat, then you understand and you never do again such a mistake…   >:
That hasn't happened to me, so apparently it's OK for me to eat some honey or fruit with meat at the same meal. It certainly makes sense for you to do what works for you. That's presumably something else we can agree on.

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The most different foods we mix in our stomach, the harder our digestion will be.
I was only inquiring about why you called the idea of eating a little honey with meat crazy, not about eating anything together with anything.

Thanks for explaining why you thought Sorrentus' suggestion was the craziest idea you've ever heard or read. Do you really think it's crazier than the reports in this forum of urine drinking and feces eating?

I'm still not persuaded that Sorenutus, paper_clips43 and Aajonus' comments about eating some honey with meat were crazy, nor CatTreats when she ate yukhoe, sorry.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Hanna on April 17, 2014, 03:08:17 pm
Quote
if you care to speculate,,,    one hunting party goes out and comes back with a fresh kill.   The tribe sits and eats, knawing  away,,,   the second hunting party comes back with a huge bee hive full of honey.   Can't you imagine how they Just might get a little honey in their mouths at the same time that they have meat in there too?

They probably had their traditions which foods to eat in which way. Up to the present day, there is or was the tradition, at least in Germany/Europe, not to eat meat and sweet foods at the same meal. In my childhood, a  dessert was only eaten on sundays, at the most, and in my parents’ childhood a dessert was only eaten at Easter, at Christmas or the like. BTW, all hunters and gatherers including those carrying foods back to their camp do cook their meat, so it seems we have to look at animals such as apes or bears.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 17, 2014, 03:32:39 pm
Van already addressed that here:
And an article supporting him on this was posted today here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/do-u-think-we-have-the-same-gut-bacteria-like-this-african-tribe-for-rpd/msg121204/#msg121204 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/do-u-think-we-have-the-same-gut-bacteria-like-this-african-tribe-for-rpd/msg121204/#msg121204)
Yes, and I answered that:
Van, I’m not considering the last thousands of years, but the millions years before. 
The Hazda bring back various foods to their camp and share it, therefore they can mix and cook these foods. I’m on raw paleo, thus I don’t take after-fire-control behaviors as a model.

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I was only inquiring about why you called the idea of eating a little honey with meat crazy, not about eating anything together with anything.

Thanks for explaining why you thought Sorrentus' suggestion was the craziest idea you've ever heard or read. Do you really think it's crazier than the reports in this forum of urine drinking and feces eating?
No, I don’t think it's crazier than the reports in this forum of urine drinking and feces eating. That is even more crazy, and thus I was wrong!  ;D

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I'm still not persuaded that Sorenutus, paper_clips43 and Aajonus' comments about eating some honey with meat were crazy, nor CatTreats when she ate yukhoe, sorry.
I wouldn’t eat honey shortly before or shortly after meat, but of course it depends on the respective amounts and on individual specificities. And eating two foods separately, without going back and forth from one to the other  is different then mixing  it, which allows us to eat too much of both those foods.

I understood that Sorentus advice was to pour  honey on the meat.  As Hanna pointed out, even Europeans on standard cooked diet don’t do that: in culinary cultured  Europe, meats are not spiced with sweets and I think it’s a sound practice.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 18, 2014, 03:03:16 am
I'm still slightly dealing with this problem. Fruit is very appealing for me everyday, but meat/organs are not except in small amounts.

I had beef liver two nights ago for the first time. It was VERY good, but I could only eat a small amount before feeling like I need to stop. Yesterday, I had a little bit of liver and some regular muscle meat. Barely anything, so I was nearly fasting. Today, I had some liver and heart. Both were good for about 7-8 small bites, then I needed to stop. Had some tuna belly, was only good for about 3 bites. Then an orange, and it tasted delicious.

I want to assume I should just eat fruit, but I was also wondering what everyone's opinion is on how much is too much for fruit?
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: goodsamaritan on April 18, 2014, 03:39:12 am
I'm still slightly dealing with this problem. Fruit is very appealing for me everyday, but meat/organs are not except in small amounts.

I had beef liver two nights ago for the first time. It was VERY good, but I could only eat a small amount before feeling like I need to stop. Yesterday, I had a little bit of liver and some regular muscle meat. Barely anything, so I was nearly fasting. Today, I had some liver and heart. Both were good for about 7-8 small bites, then I needed to stop. Had some tuna belly, was only good for about 3 bites. Then an orange, and it tasted delicious.

I want to assume I should just eat fruit, but I was also wondering what everyone's opinion is on how much is too much for fruit?


I look for variety.
I sort of follow my instincts with a lot of logic mixed in.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 18, 2014, 03:52:58 am
I look for variety.
I sort of follow my instincts with a lot of logic mixed in.

Yeah, I'm trying to vary things up but it's hard with my boyfriend's restrictions while we heal his eczema. I don't want to buy a lot of food just for myself. So I can't have shellfish. I'm not sure what other fish are good to eat raw - salmon and tuna are great, but snapper, cod, mahi mahi, and most white fish are very bland. I don't think the pork I have access to is the best, and I'm not sure pork even sounds that great. No veggies sound good at all. I can't access any other organ meats at all for the time being, just the liver and heart that I have in my freezer.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 18, 2014, 04:45:26 am
It’s no problem to eat fruits as much as you like, at least during a few days and if their quality is not too bad. What about tomatoes, green peas, avocados? Nuts? Aged meat is much tastier than fresh meat. Mackerel is cheap and usually tasty. Why can’t you buy shellfish, even if it’s for yourself only?
 
Do not force yourself to eat anything, for example organs. You’ll like it in larger amounts once your body really needs it and can handle it. Starting with small amounts like you do is fine to allow your system to gradually multiply the specific enzymes needed for their assimilation and to avoid a too intensive detox. 

Try to get fresh meat — avoid frozen one.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 18, 2014, 06:43:01 am
It’s no problem to eat fruits as much as you like, at least during a few days and if their quality is not too bad.

Good to know. We only buy fresh, local, and organic (except for things that must be imported like mango and banana). I was worried that I would do harm by eating a lot of fruit for a day or so.

What about tomatoes, green peas, avocados? Nuts? Aged meat is much tastier than fresh meat. Mackerel is cheap and usually tasty. Why can’t you buy shellfish, even if it’s for yourself only?

I'm not a fan of plain avocados, but I do love guacamole sometimes. I LOVE tomatoes, but they are nightshade so I've always limited them, despite never having actual problems when I do eat them. I had two steaks aging in my fridge, but neither smell appealing ... in fact, they have an unpleasant smell. But, these were steaks from a source that I'm not a big fan of - it's all organic, grass-fed, but the taste has always been less appealing. I've never seen mackerel actually. I guess I could buy some scallops for myself. I just feel bad eating something he can't have lol.
 
Do not force yourself to eat anything, for example organs. You’ll like it in larger amounts once your body really needs it and can handle it. Starting with small amounts like you do is fine to allow your system to gradually multiply the specific enzymes needed for their assimilation and to avoid a too intensive detox.

Interesting! I was only really "forcing" it because it was thawed and open. I hate waste, especially when I'm poor and the food is high quality.

Try to get fresh meat — avoid frozen one.

I wish that were possible. Our seafood is all fresh, but meat is impossible. The store-bought (the stuff that I said I disliked) is imported, and we only get that as a last resort. The high quality stuff is from the farmers market, and it has to be frozen. That's my only source at the moment because I won't buy from Whole Foods (too expensive), and from my understanding, they import their stuff too.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 18, 2014, 08:19:15 am
Quote from: Iguana on April 15, 2014, 02:07:39 am
Van, I’m not considering the last thousands of years, but the millions years before.
It's actually millions of years, rather than thousands. The hunter gatherer lifestyle, in which there is sharing of different foods and eating them at the same meal among foraging parties, at camp and during overnight trips, actually predates cooking, unless you think cooking goes back farther than "over 2 million years" (source: The Natural History of Human Food Sharing and Cooperation: A Review and a New Multi-Individual Approach to the Negotiation of Norms, Hillard Kaplan & Michael Gurven, 2001, http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/kaplangurven.pdf (http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/kaplangurven.pdf)) Even after the advent of cooking, many of both plant and animal foods were eaten raw, right up to the present.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: van on April 18, 2014, 10:12:20 am
It's actually millions of years, rather than thousands. The hunter gatherer lifestyle, in which there is sharing of different foods and eating them at the same meal among foraging parties, at camp and during overnight trips, actually predates cooking, unless you think cooking goes back farther than "over 2 million years" (source: The Natural History of Human Food Sharing and Cooperation: A Review and a New Multi-Individual Approach to the Negotiation of Norms, Hillard Kaplan & Michael Gurven, 2001, http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/kaplangurven.pdf (http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/kaplangurven.pdf)) Even after the advent of cooking, many of both plant and animal foods were eaten raw, right up to the present.

to my point,  all the more time for peoples to have had the opportunity to have tried honey with meat.    AND, just because they did, or do, or didn't,  doesn't mean squat, as in it's healthy to do so, that it's right for 'you', or that because they did it, then  it must be included as a new book in the old testament. 
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 18, 2014, 11:03:25 am
to my point,  all the more time for peoples to have had the opportunity to have tried honey with meat.
Yup
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 18, 2014, 04:41:14 pm
Good to know. We only buy fresh, local, and organic (except for things that must be imported like mango and banana). I was worried that I would do harm by eating a lot of fruit for a day or so.
Don’t worry! I’ve eaten a lot of fruit almost everyday during 27 years — and even before when I was still eating cooked foods as well. I’m far from being the only one doing so and being well.

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I'm not a fan of plain avocados, but I do love guacamole sometimes. I LOVE tomatoes, but they are nightshade so I've always limited them, despite never having actual problems when I do eat them. I had two steaks aging in my fridge, but neither smell appealing ... in fact, they have an unpleasant smell. But, these were steaks from a source that I'm not a big fan of - it's all organic, grass-fed, but the taste has always been less appealing. I've never seen mackerel actually. I guess I could buy some scallops for myself. I just feel bad eating something he can't have lol.
Why can’t he eat scallops? Because he doesn’t like them? And Iif he likes scallops, then there’s no reason for him to avoid them. But better avoid shelled ones, we don’t know what kind of processing they have been through.   

How do you age meat that has been frozen? I don’t eat any thawed meat, thus I wonder how would a thawed steak age.

Don’t worry about tomatoes being nightshades! What’s the hell about it? No problems have been noticed with ripe tomatoes and red peppers during 50 years of 100% raw instinctive nutrition by several hundreds people in Europe. Even Cordain (isn’t he the one who launched this nightshades’ phobia?) wrote: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/cordain-newsletter-nightshades-part-2/msg37471/#msg37471 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/cordain-newsletter-nightshades-part-2/msg37471/#msg37471)  Cordain Newsletter - Nightshades part 2
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« However, because ripe red tomatoes have such low concentrations of ?-tomatine, and because they are rich sources of vitamins, minerals and other healthful nutrients, only people with an autoimmune disease or allergies should consider limiting their fresh ripe tomato intake. »
Phil, I started reading the paper you linked.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: goodsamaritan on April 18, 2014, 09:31:20 pm
Don’t worry! I’ve eaten a lot of fruit almost everyday during 27 years — and even before when I was still eating cooked foods as well. I’m far from being the only one doing so and being well.

I eat a lot of fruit too.  I live in a tropical fruit paradise.
You have to learn how to choose.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: eveheart on April 19, 2014, 02:27:46 am
Why can’t he eat scallops? Because he doesn’t like them? And Iif he likes scallops, then there’s no reason for him to avoid them. But better avoid shelled ones, we don’t know what kind of processing they have been through.

Scallops are not a local food in the San Francisco area. I found a place to buy them in the shell... for US$7 per scallop. Almost all scallops sold here are the frozen muscle only because whole scallops spoil too quickly to make it to market here.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: TylerDurden on April 19, 2014, 03:14:20 am
That's strange. I managed to buy raw scallops in the shell for 70 pence a scallop 3 years ago in London at a farmer's market. They were definitely not prefrozen(for some reason, freezing really destroys scallops more than any other raw shellfish).
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 19, 2014, 03:43:38 am
As some people probably know from my thread, my boyfriend is in the process of healing his eczema. It was highly recommended to remove even the slightest potentially allergenic foods, which includes scallops (shellfish). As I had said before, I could easily buy some for myself. I just generally buy what we both will definitely eat. Also, I have never seen in-shell scallops.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 19, 2014, 04:28:34 am
Everyone is different and has different needs. In a family, one will enjoy something that another one loaths. But, ok, if you don’t have access to scallops in-shell, better avoid shelled ones. Maybe you could find other shellfish?

Yeah… Such medical recommendations are for people on standard cooked diet. It’s not valid for us and even opposed to what we should do!

So, what in itself is an "allergic" reaction? It is a reaction of the immune system that disturbs the host, because it is stronger than normally, resulting in unpleasant symptoms.

There is no clear boundary between so-called normal immune response against foreign molecules (called antigens to express the fact that they trigger antibody formation) and an allergic reaction, except that the latter seems to escape the normal regulatory mechanisms (which can be recognized in the silence of the organs).

Why can there be a relationship between NCS (New Chemical Species derived from processing that accumulate in the body) and common antigens (all molecules from the environment recognized as foreign by the organism: hair, dust mites etc.)?

For a very simple reason that we usually don’t think about enough: there are multitudes of "cross-reactions" between different antigens. "Cross reaction" means that two different antigens trigger the same reaction of the immune system because of similar molecular surfaces.

Principally, the immune system identifies each antigen and implements a specific reaction. Each antibody produced has molecular reliefs which correspond exactly to the reliefs of the antigenic molecule to which it is intended. There is little risk of confusion. But with the billions of possibilities, some reliefs still lead to confusion, calleds "cross reactions" by immunologist.

It is thus understandable that a reaction triggered by a new antigen may be of unexpected importance if a similar antigen has already been introduced into the body and has "sensitized" the immune system. Therefore, food antigens (incompletely degraded molecules crossing the intestinal barrier) can sensitize the immune system, so that other antigens (dust, pollen, etc.) will trigger apparently inexplicable cross-reactions. This will ultimately lead to an allergy to foreign antigens, without suspecting that the reaction itself is induced by food antigens.

The converse suggests that by stopping the penetration of these food antigens (switching to a natural diet which doesn't contain the same non-degradable molecules), the immune response to environmental antigens will decrease rapidly. This is what can commonly be observed after transition to instincto.

However, there are some cases where these reactions occur with delay. The organism can indeed learn to tolerate certain antigens, such as the effect of repetitive consumption of dairy products. Then it may happen years later that a new antigen, from an unusual food, from an insect bite, from a bacterium, will cause the awakening of the immune system (immunologists refer to it as "breakdown of tolerance"). This apparently inexplicable reaction thus may seem disproportionate.

Reactions of this type are called "detoxination reaction" in instincto slang. Note that antigens capable of "awakening" the immune system, can derive from microorganisms (bacteria, fungi, viruses, or from another organism), but foods are most often sources of antigens that provoke a breakdown of tolerance.

This concept is compatible with conventional notions of immunology, except that immunologists have not yet realized the importance of food antigens since they are unable to show their effect in the too repetitive context of a traditionally cooked diet.

Regards
GCB

Phil, I read the paper you linked. A boring read written by scholars unable to understand the ways of thinking of hunther-gatherers or even of Polynesians. It says they share food, something that we already know; we also know that they not only share food, but everything within the tribe including sexual partners and children, something these researchers don’t seem to be aware of. Chimps and moreover bonobos also share food, partners and offspring.

It doesn’t mean that as far back as 2 millions years ago our ancestors regularly mixed foods and often had simultaneously access to meat and honey. Even if they would by chance get both at the same time, they probably would not even eat both at the same meal, but rather gorge on what they preferred until their instinctive stop by total repletion, like animals do.

Cheers
François
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: eveheart on April 19, 2014, 04:35:24 am
That's strange. I managed to buy raw scallops in the shell for 70 pence a scallop 3 years ago in London at a farmer's market. They were definitely not prefrozen(for some reasin, freezing really destroys scallops more than any other raw shellfish).

Nothing strange about it. You are in the north Atlantic, where scallops are from. We just don't have them in the waters of the west coast of the US. Japan has cultured scallops, but they are shipped here cooked whole and out of the shell.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: CatTreats on April 19, 2014, 05:23:27 am
Everyone is different and has different needs. In a family, one will enjoy something that another one loaths.

We generally get the same exact cravings day in and day out. Things have changed since we've started his healing since he's taking some supplements and focusing on eating other foods, so I can assume our nutrient balances are not in sync anymore. Sounds silly, but we did go months of having the exact same cravings/interests each day.

But, ok, if you don’t have access to scallops in-shell, better avoid shelled ones. Maybe you could find other shellfish?

Are shelled that bad? Just wondering because I do really love raw scallops. We can definitely get shrimp, had that a couple of times. Oysters come and go, so that's an option at times. Whenever I think of clams and mussels I feel like I'd be lazy opening all of those shells hehe.

Yeah… Such medical recommendations are for people on standard cooked diet. It’s not valid for us and even opposed to what we should do!

I do doubt that raw shellfish or eggs are going to be harming him. But in order to just get this healing done once and for all, I'm taking all precautions. Even if it's over the top or might seem unnecessary. And things are improving now, so I don't want to do anything that might stall it.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 19, 2014, 07:00:54 am
It doesn’t mean that as far back as 2 millions years ago our ancestors regularly mixed foods and often had simultaneously access to meat and honey. Even if they would by chance get both at the same time, they probably would not even eat both at the same meal, but rather gorge on what they preferred until their instinctive stop by total repletion, like animals do.
By "probably" do you mean you're not sure of that?
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 19, 2014, 07:27:54 am
Somehow, yes...!  ;D 

By "probably", I meant "most of the times", but there would certainly have been exceptions, just like animals and pre-fire-control-hominids would once in a way have access to grilled meat or tubers after a wildfire ignited by a lightning or after a volcanic eruption.

Or perhaps someone would have eaten some honey as a dessert.

Even monkeys recently learned to wash their sweet potatoes in the sea, thus salting them, which is a recipe...   ;)
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: van on April 19, 2014, 11:16:17 am
I don't see the value in relating our past eating habits (an unknown) to animals.  For humans do so many things differently to begin with, as in cook, dry, powder or grind, mix, freeze, ferment, and the list goes on.    Yes, I would never doubt the intelligence of many animals, but creativity is something different.  And boredom is another, something rarely seen with animals in the wild, but groups of humans living together most likely not,, especially when the food is plentiful. 
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 19, 2014, 08:38:43 pm
Yes, humans have done those things ("cook, dry, powder or grind, mix, freeze, etc.") for a few millennia  and since they do that they also have set up armies, police, judges, prisons, huge hospitals, barbed wire fences, frontiers, weapons of mass destruction, they rape, torture, kill each other, do genocides and  horrifying wars, spoil the environment, pollute the air, rivers, lakes and seas, deplete the wildlife and fish stocks, destroy countless entire species, burn and destroy the primary forests, make deserts, consume in a century or two all the oil nature made in rare instances 100 or 150 millions years ago, etc.  -d  How boring life would be without that, isn’t it?

The point in relating our past habits to animals is that our far ancestors were animals and thus behaved like animals, and that we are still animals although  we think we are so much superiors and so great creators.  ;D     
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 19, 2014, 09:48:29 pm
Somehow, yes...!  ;D 

By "probably", I meant "most of the times", but there would certainly have been exceptions, just like animals and pre-fire-control-hominids would once in a way have access to grilled meat or tubers after a wildfire ignited by a lightning or after a volcanic eruption.

Or perhaps someone would have eaten some honey as a dessert.

Even monkeys recently learned to wash their sweet potatoes in the sea, thus salting them, which is a recipe...   ;)
OK, then at least we can agree on probably. You say probably not and I say probably so :D and I could be wrong. No way of definitively proving it, so we're left with our own experience, Stone Age evidence, and observations of recent HG's, to go by and draw our own conclusions/hypotheses.

When the practice of bringing various foods back to the camp and sharing them began is an interesting question. I have read an account in the past of HG's doing something along the lines of getting lots of honeycomb from a hive, eating some of it, and then on the way home, spotting and killing an animal and then sharing and enjoying both together at a meal back at the camp. Wish I could find the link.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: van on April 20, 2014, 12:05:08 am
Yes, humans have done those things ("cook, dry, powder or grind, mix, freeze, etc.") for a few millennia  and since they do that they also have set up armies, police, judges, prisons, huge hospitals, barbed wire fences, frontiers, weapons of mass destruction, they rape, torture, kill each other, do genocides and  horrifying wars, spoil the environment, pollute the air, rivers, lakes and seas, deplete the wildlife and fish stocks, destroy countless entire species, burn and destroy the primary forests, make deserts, consume in a century or two all the oil nature made in rare instances 100 or 150 millions years ago, etc.  -d  How boring life would be without that, isn’t it?

The point in relating our past habits to animals is that our far ancestors were animals and thus behaved like animals, and that we are still animals although  we think we are so much superiors and so great creators.  ;D     


  you sure can meander.  If you actually relate what I wrote to the mainstay of this discussion,,  at least for the last two pages,,  no animal mixes, freezes, powders, dries, ferments, cooks, etc..  But man does, and my guess is that early man,,  thousands or millions of years ago did the same.  Why, because he's possibly more curious, or creative than an animal.  And, hence, trying honey on meat is Not such an inProbable occurrence.   Again, I'm not saying its 'healthy' or that it was their mainstay, or that we should do it or not do it.    But to insist that early man acted just as animals or were completely in alignment with only animal practices/instincts is in my opinion Instincto Dogma.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 20, 2014, 01:08:55 am
OK, then at least we can agree on probably. You say probably not and I say probably so :D and I could be wrong. No way of definitively proving it, so we're left with our own experience,...
Yeah, that’s the point: it doesn’t really matters if consumption of meat and honey at the same meal occurred often or seldom and since how long ago.

In principle, in instincto nothing forbids to eat different foods one after the other. Thus, and still in principle, there’s no reason why we could not eat honey soon after meat or meat soon after honey. But experience  has shown that this is generally prone to cause poor digestion and overloads. Anyway, it depends on the person and the respective amounts; it may perhaps be ok for some people. It’s a matter of feeling and if we feel hungry enough and feel that we’ll be able to digest such a combo, then let’s try it. But most of us have neither the digestive capacity of a healthy hunther-gatherer  nor as much physical activity.

As a European, I’m not used to eat sweets along with meats, eggs or fish: it’s something completely alien to our culture, something typically North American that we tend to regard as coarse ways and lack of proper culinary customs. But most of all, I find it crazy to mix honey and meat to increase one’s appetite also because:

- We should eat according to our spontaneous appetite and if we have none, the natural thing to do is not eat.
- In nature, honey is in comb and thus we can’t pour it on meat
- By premixing raw foods, we can’t know how much of each we should eat and experience shows that by doing so we can easily overtake our digestive capacity, thus have an indigestion and/or  get into an overload of various nutrients


  you sure can meander.  If you actually relate what I wrote to the mainstay of this discussion,,  at least for the last two pages,,  no animal mixes, freezes, powders, dries, ferments, cooks, etc..  But man does, and my guess is that early man,,  thousands or millions of years ago did the same.

Cooking  couldn’t have been done millions years ago because our ancestors have used the fire since a few hundred thousands years only. As for food processing  such as powdering or freezing, technology is needed. “Early man” lived in the tropics and thus could not let his food naturally freeze.

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Why, because he's possibly more curious, or creative than an animal.
I’m not sure about that.

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And, hence, trying honey on meat is Not such an inProbable occurrence.  Again, I'm not saying its 'healthy' or that it was their mainstay, or that we should do it or not do it.    But to insist that early man acted just as animals or were completely in alignment with only animal practices/instincts is in my opinion Instincto Dogma.
It’s unfortunate that you don’t understand French and hence could not follow GCB’s seminar in which he explained  in great length that his theories are more questions than the ultimate truth, that the practice is an experiment to try to find provisional answers, like all scientific theories propose. Therefore it’s a stupid mistake and total lack of knowledge to call it “dogma”. Sorry, but I would rather not have to read such nonsense. 
 
The transition from apes to “early man” was of course gradual, there’s no clear boundary between apes and hominids. Moreover, we are apes.

Christopher Ryan & Cacilda Jethá assert that we are apes  (http://www.sexatdawn.com/page11/page10/page10.html)(thanks to GS for the info about these authors):
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Forget what you’ve heard about human beings having descended from the apes. We didn’t descend from apes. We are apes. Metaphorically and factually, Homo sapiens is one of the five surviving species of great apes, along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans (gibbons are considered a “lesser ape”). We shared a common ancestor with two of these apes—bonobos and chimps—just five million years ago. That’s “the day before yesterday” in evolutionary terms. The fine print distinguishing humans from the other great apes is regarded as “wholly artificial” by most primatologists these days.
Cheers
Francois
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: van on April 20, 2014, 01:46:58 am
I'm not referring to any of GCB's investigations, but more to those who set them in stone,  as in here,  where you are saying that early man could not have put honey on their meat (comb or honey,  and by the way if you've ever broken apart a wild comb you'd have noticed that liquid  honey is running everywhere, and hopefully into their baskets or goat stomach bags)    let alone taking a bite of meat and then a bite of comb  ( Your limitations to back your argument are getting absurd).     All because he is an animal or ape and is strictly following his overriding instinct as an ape.  Now that is Dogma.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 20, 2014, 02:56:57 am
 
I'm not referring to any of GCB's investigations, but more to those who set them in stone,  as in here,  where you are saying that early man could not have put honey on their meat

I didn’t say exactly that:
- In nature, honey is in comb and thus we can’t pour it on meat
Yeah, a bit of honey could be put on meat in the way you say. Even if it had been sporadically been done since 2 million years, then what? As I said, grilled meat could always have been sporadically found too after a wildfire.
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five million years ago. That’s “the day before yesterday” in evolutionary terms.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: eveheart on April 20, 2014, 03:08:03 am
It’s unfortunate that you don’t understand French and hence could not follow GCB’s seminar in which he explained  in great length that his theories are more questions than the ultimate truth, that the practice is an experiment to try to find provisional answers, like all scientific theories propose. Therefore it’s a stupid mistake and total lack of knowledge to call it “dogma”. Sorry, but I would rather not have to read such nonsense. 

GCB's original intent may have been to explain his one, simple theory: Processing food messes with the instinctive process of the human appetite. Quoting GCB and treating his experiences as universally instructive make his words sound like dogma to me, too. As far as I am concerned, the minute someone says, "GCB says....," we are witnessing the birth of more dogma.

If, as you say, he goes to great lengths to explain that his "theories" are "questions," they why quote his words as if they were the truth? Why not let each natural eater ask his own questions and find his own provisional answers?
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 20, 2014, 03:12:45 am
Did I write "GCB says"?? Did I quote his words as if they were the truth??

When you read "Aajonus says", doesn't it sound like dogma to you? Why nobody reacts when reading that?

Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: eveheart on April 20, 2014, 03:19:48 am
Did I write "GCB says"?? Did I quote his words as if they were the truth??

Yes, you often do.

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When you read "Aajonus says", doesn't it sound like dogma to you? Why nobody reacts when reading that?

Yes, it does. People do react strongly to Aajonus's dogmatic side. Of course, AV had the added charm of having a quirky, eccentric, and fanciful side.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 20, 2014, 03:27:06 am
Yes, you often do.

Not that I'm aware of. It would be helpful if you give a precise quote or reference.

I often quote him, but in my mind it's to make members aware of his ideas (because members seem to ignore them) and in hope to have a rational discussion about it with a  questioning  of these ideas (which could be wrong, of course). It seldom happened.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 20, 2014, 08:29:01 am
Yeah, that’s the point: it doesn’t really matters if consumption of meat and honey at the same meal occurred often or seldom and since how long ago.
Yup, that's one of the points that Van and I have been trying to make, and thus absolute rules for everyone, based on unproven theory, prohibiting eating honey or spices at the same meal as meats seems more crazy than occasionally adding a tiny bit of flavour to or with meat by someone who says they have insufficient appetite.
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: Iguana on April 20, 2014, 03:45:48 pm
Appetite is obviously an automatic natural regulation process which shouldn’t be disturbed by intellectual speculations based on our vastly incomplete knowledge.

There’s no “unproven theory prohibiting eating honey or spices at the same meal as meats”. A theory doesn’t prohibit any actions. I only mentioned a practical recommendation  based on experience,  and particularly an advice not to pre-mix meat and sweets — a mixing which by the way is not specific to the instincto practice but also part of traditional culinary customs, as Hanna pointed out.

Have a nice day
François
Title: Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 20, 2014, 09:29:31 pm
The intellectual speculations we have been discussing are the food combining theory and to some extent the broader Instincto theory and more specifically your speculations about pre-fire Stone Agers not eating certain foods at the same meal, such as here:
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have...
and your calling something "the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read" based on your speculations and theories.

"I doubt" suggests a lack of certainty, which I commend. What say we agree that we're not certain and agree to disagree on what "probably" happened? After all, endless debate about theories doesn't do much to help the OP.