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Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Instincto / Anopsology => Topic started by: Ungullible on April 19, 2014, 08:36:12 pm
Title: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on April 19, 2014, 08:36:12 pm
At long last, the missing link between Clara Davis experiments (1927-1930’s) on the food instinct of newly weaned and the “Stone Age diet” of W Voegtlin is gradually coming to light, thanks to the profusion of biographical details which can be nowadays be found on the web.
The following has been written by a top notch military scientist who ended his career as Head of a major public university in the US. He was also a member of a (republican) Defense Cabinet (MOD). Excerpted from a book for the larger audience , which went into a number of editions, it was published before the war broke out between Germany and the US .
It clearly demonstrates a) that the (rare ) ideational combinations of instinct + paleolithic diet theory could be found before WWII. I was pretty sure that it was the case, but never found a concrete exemple before. b) military staff were particularly interested in the subject, as they’ve always been throughout history
QUOTE “ Ceux qui sont en faveur du laissez faire en matière de nutrition , qui prétendent que les papilles gustatives sont les seuls arbitres nécessaires pour déterminer le régime adéquat, auraient eu parfaitement raison 100 000 ans en arrière, mais plus de nos jours, car nos papilles n’ont pas été entrainées de la manière dont il était prévu qu’elles le soient. Elles ont été détournées des choses simples et naturelles et exigent des stimulations artificielles. Il a été suggéré que les premiers hommes se préservaient de morts douloureuses par intoxication grace à un appareil sensitif capable de détecter les matières empoisonnées. Cela a certainement été vrai à une époque mais cela n’est certainement plus vrai de nos jours. Nos poisons se cachent dans l’art culinaire et derrière les épices, et meme lorsque la cuisine n’arrive à plus à les dissimuler, il est possible que nos papilles émoussées ne seraient plus capables de les détecter. Les enfants laissés à eux-mêmes montrent une préférence affligeante pour les sucres raffinés , les hydrates de carbone et les bonbons : ces aliments agissent sur eux comme le sang agit sur le tigre. Ils y laissent leur santé et leurs dents. Les enfants des peuplades primitives avaient les memes appétences, mais ils n’avaient pas la possibilité de satisfaire leurs envies avec des aliments industriels. Ils devaient se contenter de fruits murs et de canne à sucre sauvage , ce qui leur permettait d’absorber suffisamment de minéraux et de vitamines avec leur sucre. Tant que nous maltraiterons nos aliments par les procédés les plus divers, nous serons condamnés à tempérer nos inclinations instinctives et à modérer nos choix alimentaires par le jugement de notre raison. Il y a eu un certain nombre d’expériences consistant à nourrir des enfants en leur laissant le choix. Ces expériences ont souvent été mal interprétées ……etc etc…..»
Personal comments :
In retrospect, and taking into account the fact that hardly anybody ever since that time, has heard about an instinctual theory of human nutrition, there can be several ways of reading these past “admonitions” by a military scientist :
1) A naïve reading of the above would be “ Behold, happy citizens ! Science is on the verge of elucidating the mystery of how the food instinct of our species works. You will soon be handed out the user manual, as soon as we can find a complete version of it ! ”. May be this is what some military scientists voluntarily did, in the end , in the 1950’s when the understanding of “paleo diet- within- an- instinctual- framework” leaked out to the ears of the likes of Roger MacDougall and Burger, and from there to the larger audience ?
2) A more realistic reading/interpretation ? “ You, morons, do not deserve to be taught how to become self reliant with your food instinct . We , Grand Master of Science and Defense Technology have rediscovered a secret, which we will only partially unveil in this book so that we may keep you entirely in our power…and we will discourage you to pursue the mastery of your food instinct, by pretending that economy and society cannot go backward … ” In that case , the 1960’s repeated attempts to bring into the public light a theory on instinctive paleo diet is the result of a "Snowden like" MEAT-Y-LEAK
The distressing thing is that I don't know which one of the above corresponds to true history.......
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Iguana on April 19, 2014, 09:03:37 pm
You have to give the precise references of that book (title, author, etc) otherwise your post is unverifiable, hence useless garbage, as usual :
Quote
Excerpted from a book for the larger audience , which went into a number of editions, it was published before the war broke out between Germany and the US .
Bibliographic citation and referencing guide Why reference?
From reading academic articles and books, you should be familiar with the scholarly practice of making references in the text to other people's work and providing listings of relevant source material at the end of the text. Why is this done, and why should you adopt this approach in your own work? There are several reasons:
To enable someone reading the document to find the material you have referred to or consulted To demonstrate your width of reading and knowledge about a subject To support and/or develop points made in the text To avoid accusations of plagiarism: using somebody else's work without acknowledging the fact (...)
1. Book
Author(s) - family name, initials. (Year). Title of book. Edition. Place of publication: Publisher.
Examples
Anthony, G. (2002). UK public law and European law. Oxford: Hart. Cohen, H., Rogers, G.F.C. and Saravanamuttoo, H.I.H. (1996). Gas turbine theory. 4th ed. Harlow: Longman.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Iguana on April 20, 2014, 04:13:10 pm
You will find some biographical details on him : http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/nov/30/wolfgang-lutz-obituary (http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/nov/30/wolfgang-lutz-obituary)
Interesting article about Wolfgang Lutz. Your last post has been moved into the moderators section because it is defamatory for Lutz, Voegtlin and GCB.
Defamation is not allowed here.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on April 20, 2014, 05:37:16 pm
Of course Iguana. Of course . No defamation . Just the plain facts.
So let me rephrase the message which you just suppressed.
- In the 30's a US military scientist who will later supervise all military research in the US writes that our instinct only works under paleolithic conditions, and further states that this is the only adequate framework for interpreting Clara Davis experiments (initial message above) - In the 50' s a young german military physician who started his medical studies when Hitler came into power ( he was 20 years in 1933), states that neolithic diet is the culprit for all diseases of civilization 20 years before Voegtlin's book is issued. Because of his young age during WWII, he did not held management position in german research and was therefore an underling in the infamous Dachau experiments. - In 1957 a research director of the UK Royal Navy claims that the mixing of raw food is, in itself, sufficient to baffle our instinct and that cooked carb foods should be reduced in the diet.
The least we can say without defaming is that there seems to have been quite a bit of reflexion going on amongst scientists working in military circles AROUND the world in the 30's and 40's, on this topic. Given the wealth of french colonial/military medicine and french medical anthropology at that time, I would be extremely surprised not to find any similar attempt at theorizing these ideas in France.
And strangely, none of these XXth century theorizing efforts by military medicine ( efforts which actually started well before the french revolution) have been acknowledged by non-military litterature issued by non-physicians (neither MacDougall, nor Delteil, nor Burger were physicians - but all of them were artists ) who tried to call the attention of the public on a theory based on similar scientific tenets, after the 50's .
These are facts , Iguana. Not interpretations.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Iguana on April 20, 2014, 07:03:10 pm
So, why no references again? Are they are a secret you jealously keep for yourself? Do we have to simply believe your unreferenced, unsubstantiated rants? Did the allies won the war because their armies were on instinctive raw paleo diet? LOL.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on April 20, 2014, 08:41:43 pm
I just gave you a reference which was freely available on the Net since end of 2010 which was apparently ignored . Still, you did not like what you call my "ranting" and deleted my message, as you have done before.
Everything is on the web , waiting for you and other truth seekers to read and learn : bibliography, obituaries, books......
Everything is at hand : what you need to do is to cross information over and over and over and over again. And the truth comes up . It's a hell of a job so you have to have an enquiring mind.
I don't belong to any university. I don't have free access to any library. When I need translations from german I'm buying those translations. When I need old articles from medical journals, I'm buying the documents. When I need books, I'm buying the books.
And when I think I will have decently covered the topic , it will be time to tell everybody.
Thanks for allowing me to keep a step ahead.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on April 20, 2014, 09:00:53 pm
2) A more realistic reading/interpretation ? “ You, morons, do not deserve to be taught how to become self reliant with your food instinct . We , Grand Master of Science and Defense Technology have rediscovered a secret, which we will only partially unveil in this book so that we may keep you entirely in our power…and we will discourage you to pursue the mastery of your food instinct, by pretending that economy and society cannot go backward … ” In that case , the 1960’s repeated attempts to bring into the public light a theory on instinctive paleo diet is the result of a "Snowden like" MEAT-Y-LEAK
The distressing thing is that I don't know which one of the above corresponds to true history.......
The history of food instinct is, by essence, part and parcel of a larger history of anti bourgeois feelings (not more but not less than anti bourgeois economics, anti bourgeois educational theories, anti bourgeois philosophy…..). Since bourgeois mentality is ruling every aspects of life in the western world, it is quite difficult to think " from outside" the bourgeois matrix, or for this purpose, to get access to the quite limited pertinent "outsider" information (unless of course a good sheperd gives you a head start , which is often what happens )
Nonetheless, and in spite of this common viewpoint , it would be stupid to think that all scientists who advocated following one's food instinct would all share the same political opinion, be it only because a non negligeable part of them were homosexuals. In those days (turn of the XXth century) , people tended to have widely differing views on homosexuality, based on their political leanings (and vice versa !) .
It is therefore to be expected that those scientists in favour in an instinctual theory of human diet split in two camps in 1917 : those, on the left, in favour of the marxist (anti bourgeois) Russian revolution showed a somewhat higher degree of political "consistency" at least until the atrocities of the communist regime became known; while those on the right who adhered to the idea that the capitalist-liberal society, in spite of all its shortcomings, was the only one which could nurture the kind of scientific reform needed to "push" the instinctive diet agenda on the table, ended up associating themselves with the devil of eugenism, racial politics and antisemitism.
What happened after WWII ?
After 1945, it must have become clear to anti-capitalist scientists that military research was loosing its autonomy to be absorbed and diluted in the new militaro-industrial-capitalist complex which , in the end, would mean the betrayal the old humanist dream which could jeopardize the transmission of military traditions for the generations to come. Hence the urgent need to create a new tradition outside military circles. A new tradition which could survive the demise of the humanist ideal as transmitted by military scientists. This last paragraph is of course purely speculative but speculation is not forbidden.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on April 21, 2014, 07:13:17 pm
Did the allies won the war because their armies were on instinctive raw paleo diet? LOL.
J'ai cherché à savoir si l'intéret pour la question de l'instinct alimentaire avait été intégrée dans la rédaction des manuels de survie, notamment ceux qui étaient distribués aux pilotes d'avion et aux marins américains pendant la seconde guerre. Je n'ai pas trouvé de trace écrite, ce qui ne signifie pas que leur entrainement militaire n'intégrait pas cette question.
Quelle influence a eu la question du cru et/ la question de l'instinct alimentaire au cours des dernières guerres ?
-Guerre de 1870-71 : l'Allemagne triomphe sur la France. Discours explicatif de la victoire coté allemand : l'Allemagne est restée chrétienne et l'armée allemande est fondée sur la religion naturelle contrairement aux hordes de gaulois paiens. Je doute que cette question ait eu une incidence sur la ration des soldats allemands (pour répondre à ta question) mais, au niveau idéologique, il ne fait pas de doute que la justification de la victoire reposait, à leurs yeux, sur le respect de la religion naturelle ( il s'agit de recherches en cours donc je ne peux pas plus élaborer ) -Guerre de 14-18 : les militaires demandent aux scientifiques comment , en l'absence de fruits et légumes frais servis dans les tranchées (!!), on peut rendre plus rationnelle l'alimentation des soldats. Réponse des scientifiques alliés : donnez leur des aliments séchés et des graines germées. J'ai lu que des groupes de prisonniers (serbes je crois) en mauvaise santé, à la fin de la guerre , ont reçu des graines germées à haute dose. - Guerre de 39-45 : je n'ai trouvé que des textes coté armée américaine qui montrent que la réflexion sur l'instinct alimentaire est intégrée dans l'amélioration de la palatabilité et du plaisir de manger . Apparemment les GI devaient se plaindre que c'était dégueulasse !
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: LePatron7 on April 21, 2014, 08:23:14 pm
Wow! This confirms exactly what I knew about political and world leaders, corporate overlords, and the illuminati all eating an instinctive diet.. I mean a primal diet.. I mean getting special government (alien created) health care.. I mean using orthomolecular medicine to treat themselves.. Secretly leading really healthy lives and keeping it from the masses to control the world.. I've known all along that the NWO musicians/puppets and owners of The Disney channel have been using instinctive nutrition to control the masses. Especially at the Disney channel.. That's where they brainwash them early...
Lol please excuse the HEAVY sarcasm. First, without references it sounds crazy. Second, even with references it sounds crazy.
Here's a reference showing the NWO puppets eating their instinctive diets.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: cherimoya_kid on April 22, 2014, 10:51:13 am
Ungullible, dude, you need to just let it go. GCB did not steal his theories from anyone. Even if he had (although he didn't), who cares? The basic theory isn't what's so useful about his work. it's the 50 years of experimentation on himself and other people that is what's so valuable. It's the same type of knowledge that traditional groups around the world have/had about food...they got it through trial-and-error experimentation. And it's valuable.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on April 23, 2014, 05:27:55 am
Cherimoya Kid :
the concrete experience is much more valuable than my historical "ranting" . You are right . If I was given the choice between being brainwashed ( ie forgetting the experience) or burning all my books, I would burn all my books.
But this is not the point. The point is : is it worth the effort ? It probably isn't if you don't like history.
I'm an historian by heart ( When I was a kid I wanted to become a teacher : I wanted to teach history or philosophy . I did none of it ) . So I'm just putting my passion to good use.
If this story has to do with the history of toxicology, I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of physiology , I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of anthropology, I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of phenomenology , I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of physiology of respiration , I want to know it If this story has to do with the birth of environmental medicine, I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of mining, I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of pushing the limits of the human body , I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of the first commercial typewriter ( :)) I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of political revolutions , I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of diabetes , I want to know it If this story is intertwined with the history of Good and Bad Templars, I would like to know If this story has to do with the theories of the Fall of humanity, I want to know it IF this story has to do with the history of the (religious representations of the) Devil, I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of romantic philosophy , I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of Anti-Lumières, I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of Contre Revolution , I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of christian anarchism , I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of christian apologetics, whether catholic or protestant, I want to know it If this story has to do with the history of the Swedenborgian sect, I want to know it If this story has to do with lutherianism and not with calvinism, I want to know why. If this story has to do with the history of anti judaism, I know why, but I want to know more If this story has to do with the history of naval medicine , I want to know all of it If this story has to do with the history of aerospace medicine ( yes it does !), I want to know all If this story has to do with the history of the First, Second and third German Reich, I want to know If this story has to do with Anatole France and Chateaubriand and Huysmans, I want to know who told them I want to know how the idea of food instinct promoted new ideas in education throughout centuries If this story has to do with the history of conversion to catholicism, I also want to know it. If this story has to do with the history of pediatry as a separate medical field, I want to know it. If this story has to do with the catholic kings of Spain , I want to know it If this story cannot be separated from the history of Grossherzogtum Baden, so be it but I want to know why ! if this story cannot be separated from the history of US universities suffocating under presbytarian authorities, so be it . If this story has to do with the history of the idea of the superiority of tropical populations over white "races", I will know it. If this story cannot be separated from the history of homosexuality, I want to know If this story has to do with the history of alcohol and alcohol rehabilitation , you won't be surprised
The idea that we have an instinct and that our instinct should be considered a "moral guide" is everywhere present in the history of scientific food hygiene, and everywhere in the story of our western civilisation. Just look at the 1913 debates on the first FDA regulations : they talk about food instinct ! Things have gone very very bad in the US since then, at least on the food front !
Everywhere in science. But nowhere in the multitude of treatises written by naturopaths and alternative medicine man ( with a few limited exceptions such as Maurice Phusis " La Chute de l'humanité" )
The only recent elements in this long story are a) the clarification and (simultaneously ) the exacerbation of the cereal question which followed the great medical discoveries of the XIXth and XXth c. b) the eradication of the idea of food instinct by the new profession of nutritionnists . This eradication becomes blatant right after WWII, precisely at a time when the idea manages to gain some scientific momentum.
Not interested ? May be you are not. I'm fascinated but, granted, all researchers are "fascinated" by their choosen topic .
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on April 23, 2014, 06:29:54 am
Wow! This confirms exactly what I knew about political and world leaders, corporate overlords, and the illuminati all eating an instinctive diet.. I mean a primal diet.. I mean getting special government (alien created) health care..
You totally misread my contribution. It does happen, from time to time, that original minds replete with original ideas get very close to the executive power. It never happens because of their originality. It happens rather "in spite of" their originality, and it happens because they have higher qualities which tend to hide or conceal their originality . Such was certainly the case of this scientist.
I went to Unesco library today. They have one of the best reference library in the world for biography ( if you are looking for a Columbian or a Nepalese Who's who , this is the place to go ! ) . Here is a tid bit of what I found : in 1941 this scientist astounded his colleagues of the American Chemical Society with his prediction that the sun rays would be harnessed to provide electrical power. He cautioned against the idea of postponing research until petroleum is entirely depleted. During WWII he supervised research on supersonic flying devices (which were finally manufactured right after the end of the war) including planes without pilot. He was a true mastermind, not a naturopath who has found a ready made idea.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: LePatron7 on April 23, 2014, 09:18:44 pm
You totally misread my contribution. It does happen, from time to time, that original minds replete with original ideas get very close to the executive power. It never happens because of their originality. It happens rather "in spite of" their originality, and it happens because they have higher qualities which tend to hide or conceal their originality . Such was certainly the case of this scientist.
I went to Unesco library today. They have one of the best reference library in the world for biography ( if you are looking for a Columbian or a Nepalese Who's who , this is the place to go ! ) . Here is a tid bit of what I found : in 1941 this scientist astounded his colleagues of the American Chemical Society with his prediction that the sun rays would be harnessed to provide electrical power. He cautioned against the idea of postponing research until petroleum is entirely depleted. During WWII he supervised research on supersonic flying devices (which were finally manufactured right after the end of the war) including planes without pilot. He was a true mastermind, not a naturopath who has found a ready made idea.
So what book is that from?
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Projectile Vomit on April 24, 2014, 02:59:32 am
...in 1941 this scientist astounded his colleagues of the American Chemical Society with his prediction that the sun rays would be harnessed to provide electrical power...
In 1941 solar photovoltaics had been around for over 100 years; the photovoltaic effect was first observed back in 1839. This scientist you speak of didn't 'predict' anything.
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: Ungullible on May 18, 2014, 01:37:06 am
Listen to this : when this top military scientist died , his widow received hundreds of condolences from the then "big shot" of US military research and governement officials including Richard Nixon himself and governor Rockefeller.
I browsed the list of names on cards and telegrams to try and find US military scientists : the whole list of people involved in the US air/sea Lockheed rocket programme was there plus and a few others such as
the chairman of Naval Research Advisory Committee the Chief of Research & development in the Army the Chief Naval Operations several retired Army General an assistant Secretary for Navy Research the secretary of the Army scientific advisory panel
But the ones which made me laugh are these two :
KEITH GLENNAN First NASA Administrator : Remember the Nasa report on human food instinct I mentionned earlier ?
Why is he important ? Do you remember a certain TL CLEAVE who spent all his years pondering on how our food instinct works ? Do you remember I asked you to pay special attention to the fact that he wasn't "n'importe qui" ? Cleave was Director of UK Naval research . Well, it seems Admiral Owen had the same position as Cleave but on the other side of the Atlantic.
And look what OWEN was involved in, in his later years : you will never guess !
Long term SURVIVAL Experiments......... It's here :
So funny ! This connection, I must admit , had escaped my attention until today
While soldiers were fighting on the front lines , military physicians and scientists fought their bravest war in the labs trying to unveil the secrets of our instinct for food in order to prepare for survival in an atomic age .
Title: Re: Reception of Clara Davis experiments by military scientists in the US
Post by: cherimoya_kid on May 21, 2014, 11:25:41 pm
Ungullible--I think I speak for everyone when I say I fail to see the RELEVANCE of all this to actually practicing the diet. It's mildly interesting at best. I know you don't have anywhere else to talk about this, and I wish there was a whole bunch of forums for people who loved this topic so you could feel like you're not so alone. However, we are mostly of a more practical bent here. We simply want to know what works, and the history of military research from the 1940s doesn't really help a lot with that.