Raw vegan/fruitarian propagandism over wellbeing and personal efficacy (a sad situation indeed)...I'm another recovering raw vegan transitioning to "no/lo carbage" RAF to find the abundance of vitamins (particularly) and whatnot that simply are not offered for our GI tracts by the flora of the Earth...(or not in my experiential growth anyway)

I once believed that if one could culture the optimal, original endogenous (as well as exogenous) ecosystem (bio-terrain, whatever vernacular you care to use), one could be self-sufficient enough to subsist on anything that could be considered seed-bearing fruit...Woe was me for that strange, misguided period in my journey to a more favourable place.

Sadly, I read odd anecdotes of teeth healing from raw vegans (without any sound substantiation, other than simply "healing"), which is the reason I originally chose raw veganism over raw paleo. My tooth enamel loss intensified with all incarnations/variations/ratios of raw veganism (with cleansing/flushing/fasting).

Let's face it, if one can't even maintain tooth enamel and/or hold teeth in the jaw bone, what else is precipitating unnoticed in your daily metabolic life?

One wonders why traditional cultures didn't have the "innate" wisdom to just stick to flora...Was it perhaps for self-preservation and self-perpetuation?!

For me, raw veganism was a means to an end, not an end...Don't believe the hype and remember that hindsight is always 20/20.

I have to thank goodsamaritan for encouraging me to join this unmatched and good-natured community of well-intentioned, sound reasoning friends (you might say efficacy-oriented, altruistic practitioners!). I was in the position that I was already well progressed in the biliary flushing, parasite cleansing etc. stakes (general debris-clearing), yet I had exhausted all of the raw vegan approaches, which were rapidly deteriorating my complete health (e.g. enamel loss starting to manifest on all teeth - chipping, translucent on edges, no strength in bite).

How are you managing with the fast moving sugars (insulin response) in most of the hybridised domesticated (often seedless and nutrient-sparse) fruits of today? What about your daily fatty acid profile (n-3, n-6, dha etc.)? What about those fat-soluble vitamins that most compromised GI tracts have difficulty in converting from the plant-based precursors? What about bile flow for uptake of fats and fat-soluble vitamins? No vegan guru ever addressed the matter of fat-soluble vitamin deficiency (the almost pathological loss of teeth being a major indicator!). All the minerals and transmutation in the cosmos won't drive substance into the tissues without their required vitamins...

If you've already lost teeth/enamel, consider the fact that your deficient diet might be tantamount to self-abuse, which is absolutely contrary to the self-preserving, self-perpetuating aspect of true nature. Man, your remaining teeth are crying out to you to change your ways and bring yourself back into bio-balance. Swallow your pride and forget the dogma of fruitarianism.

So you think your terminal ileum bacteria are producing enough cobalamin (B12) to manage potentially fatal homocysteine levels?! Let me guess, you're eating sun-dried dirt/clay from different areas of the Earth, full of many species of probiotics that will seed your terminal ileum, facilitating endogenous B12 synthesis?

If anything, know that a lack of fat-soluble vitamins is the reason why you struggled to maintain those teeth (those vitamin-activated claws in the protein matrix in the teeth/bones just letting go of their minerals and not being able to retrieve any back). Bones and teeth are not rocks but living tissues with constant mineral turnover, subject to severe loss (or rapid increase) of density and ultimately, sensitivity/weakness/loss.

Eat some raw grass-fed organs (liver, brain - maybe marinated in lemon etc.) along with plenty of raw grass-fed fats/marrow (yum, fat-soluble vitamins) and feel the density of your jaw and teeth increase along with a great, reassuring feeling of strength in your bite - argh! The difference can be felt in a matter of days...

I'll reiterate what everyone else has said...Free your mind, reject the inculcated dogma and embrace efficacy - you will fall in love with yourself on account of your swift action to safeguard what's left of your good and most noble self!

Self-preservation, self-perpetuation!

Enjoy...Bye bye so-called true heritage!

Nice one for the wisdom, although I'm loathe not always to err on the side of caution (being respectful of Gaia and all that!), albeit sometimes at the expense of trusting my innate voices (woe is me!).

Ironic you should mention that because I reckon some of my last liver meal passed through undigested - I'll endeavour to be more aware of my instinctive cravings, which sounds perfectly reasonable, although my CLO is spiced with cinnamon, so it could be deceiving me somewhat!

Admittedly, I've not quite developed my palate for liver yet, preferring the lemon+sun-dried sea salt marinade version!

I have a kilogram of lamb hearts, which I'm yet to dabble with - should be interesting and I've heard it's quite nice...Does anyone have any suggestions for preparing heart or is it simply a matter of draining (or not?!) and carving?

Adios!

MrBBQ

Here's the article (http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitaminasaga.html) that I read, with particular relevance in the section "THE MYTH OF VITAMIN A TOXICITY" (as below)...

The Merck Manual describes vitamin-A toxicity in less hysterical terms. Acute vitamin-A poisoning can occur in children after taking a single dose of synthetic vitamin A in the range of 300,000 IU or a daily dosage of 60,000 IU for a few weeks. Two fatalities have been reported from acute vitamin-A poisoning in children, which manifests as increased intracranial pressure and vomiting. For the vast majority, however, recovery after discontinuation is "spontaneous, with no residual damage."

In adults, according to the Merck Manual, vitamin-A toxicity has been reported in arctic explorers who developed drowsiness, irritability, headaches and vomiting, with subsequent peeling of the skin, within a few hours of ingesting several million units of vitamin A from polar bear or seal liver. Again, these symptoms cleared up with discontinuation of the vitamin-A rich food. Other than this unusual example, however, only vitamin-A from "megavitamin tablets containing vitamin A. . . when taken for a long time" has induced acute toxicity, that is, 100,000 IU synthetic vitamin-A per day taken for many months.

Unless you are an arctic explorer, it is virtually impossible to develop vitamin-A toxicity from food. The putative toxic dose of 100,000 IU per day would be contained in 3 tablespoons of high vitamin cod liver oil, 6 tablespoons of regular cod liver oil, two-and-one-half 100-gram servings of duck liver, about three 100-gram servings of beef liver, seven pounds of butter or 309 egg yolks. Even synthetic vitamin A is not toxic when given as a single large dose or in small amounts on a daily basis. Children in impoverished areas of the world are routinely given two 100,000-unit doses of retinol per year for infants and two 200,000-unit doses for children over 12 months.

I still find the YouTube anecdote worthwhile though...

MrBBQ

Hey goodsamaritan,

Thanks for the rapid response - most appreciated.

I agree - very powerful...At least I've felt its effect on my teeth already! It makes me wonder how much "high" liver one would have to eat in a week - probably just a teaspoon!

Well, like I said, I had 6ml of CLO every day for the last 2 weeks (according to most of what was said by Stephan @ WholeHealthSource blog), plus I ate the total amount of liver that I bought in a package, which was @6oz - that's probably a good 8 tablespoons in total...

Based on what I'd read from Weston Price et al, as long as the A was balanced out by D and K2 (which I've been getting from butter oil), there should be no resultant toxicity - only efficacy! My understanding is that if the ratios are correct, toxicity should not manifest, although who am I to comment?! I'm just experimenting after all...Also, if the liver is grass-finished in the case of land animals(yep, it was!), that would hopefully mean that the ratios are more according to nature...

The only thing I did in addition is buy (try for the first time) some liver from my local ethical butchers (strictly 100% grass-fed). I also believe that I skipped the CLO on the lamb liver days (can't be sure!), or maybe just took 2ml instead of 6ml over 3 servings...

Really, I think I'll leave my current batch of liver in the fridge for maybe another week or two and calm things down with those potent vitamins. Hopefully, I've provoked some awareness, if not just resurrected it...

I wonder if the true carnivore knows when to stop with these organs because I certainly didn't feel an instinctive "stop" signal (like "ugh, this suddenly seems disgusting/sickening").

Any insights/experiences would be most appreciated, thanks!

Is there any consensus on the optimal recovery from fat-soluble vitamin excess, or is this just me getting paranoid after a negative anecdote...?

Many thanks,

MrBBQ

Nice one van - seems like decent advice...What do you reckon about storing in glass containers? I have these ultra-lite glass bowls with plastic lids, which go nicely in my fridge...I have no dedicated fridge for meat and there's plenty of other stuff in there (all raw stuff like), so I wouldn't want cross contamination with salad vegetables or whatever...

@Tyler: Thanks for the concise answers - most appreciated.

@Cosmo: Thanks for the invaluable interjections. So just to clarify, you're just buying straight non-organic minced lamb from Sainsbury's (nothing about NZ on the label?)?! If I'm going through a skint period and struggling to afford decent quality meat, I'll fall back to this minced NZ lamb (or even if I just can't be bothered travelling to the other side of town, which I have to do at the moment). It's an interesting point about water...Do organic standards dictate spring water?

Going back to the antihelmintics and stuff, I'm presuming that we're generally referring to wormwood, cloves and green black walnut hulls (amongst the more tolerable others like cayenne, garlic, onion etc.)...After reviewing a lot of the "hearsay" about regular/irregular dosing of wormwood over short or long periods, I'm wondering what a safe maintenance/proactive dose would be (during my paranoid/immature phase)...Any ideas?

Also, I've just opened a plastic bag in my fridge containing some free stuff like bones, fat offcuts and even some fatty slithers of meat. There was a very slight "off" smell, but I've just cut up some of the fat into small chunks and been munching on it throughout the morning. Where's the line between edible "off" and inedible "off", or is it down to personal taste/discretion? I don't want to go down the overgrowth/pathogenesis argument, but I'm wondering how rotten people are eating their forages, even when they're complementary?

Thanks for the typically sound attitude in this forum!

All the best,

MrBBQ

Hey Cosmo+Tyler (and my other good contemporaries, of course),

I've not been near a PC over the weekend (grafting in the heat mainly), so I've only just seized the opportunity to come back.

So, up to now, I've had 100% grass-finished Angus beef, lamb and lamb's liver...The liver did not seem bitter, but for me, it's truly a taste that I'll have to acquire (I never liked it cooked when my family used to eat it either). Anyone know any good marinades?! I've also eaten every raw flesh meal with finely chopped onion, garlic, chillies, cayenne and ginger (mixed with a little sun-dried sea salt and first cold pressed olive oil)...Does anyone know a good source for virgin macadamia oil in the UK? (I've picked up a couple of online sources, but they're approaching £15 per half litre)

I suppose it's not always that easy to source organic and grass-fed/finished meat, but like Tyler said to me, with some extra effort calling regional farms (farm shops) and maybe some regular driving (foraging!), better value meat is potentially accessible. I've just been googling for things like "grass/pasture/free range farm shop [region/county]" and asking the proprietors the usual questions. Most people are offering heart, tongue, bones, suet and other bits at a decent price (or complementary!). I've also been eating cuts that've been in my fridge for a week, which have not really diminished in taste (I suppose they keep them hanging for a while anyway).

@Cosmo: So am I right to understand that the non-organic minced lamb is implicitly from NZ? Let me ask again - is it grass or grain-finished based on your research?
@Tyler: What do you know about the finishing of the NZ lamb?!
(I mean, let's at least establish the facts)

@Tyler: I'm slightly paraniod about eating liver due to liver flukes, which grow from larvae into adults higher in the food chain. I decided to rinse the first piece of liver that I tried, plus I cut it into very thin slices and inspected each slice, including the hepatic ducts for any lesions/damage or small foreign bodies. Apparently, liver fluke is particularly prevalent in cattle and sheep, especially in the marshy pastures of the United Kingdom. Do you know if any animals with such an infection could be allowed to enter our food chain via a high quality free range/grass-finished farm/butcher, and/or otherwise, do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any knowledge/experience with liver flukes? (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascioliasis#Human_fasciolosis)

@goodsamaritan: I know you're an advocate of raw liver, particularly as a "multivitamin for tooth healing"...What's your knowledge about the prevalence of flukes and becoming a competent "liver chef" (inspecting for damage/foreign bodies)?

Ultimately, would a farmer/vet with any kind of responsibility allow a fascioliasis-diseased liver into the human food chain? Is it at all probable that asymptomatic fascioliasis could make it into a farm shop and into my gut/liver/gallbladder?!

Apparently, aquatic/marsh plants (e.g. water cress, lamb's lettuce, dandelion, ...) and some other plants are another vector/vehicle into the human ecosystem...

It's making me wonder about that cat-based brain parasite (Toxoplasma gondii) that was mentioned on here as well because my next door neighbour has 12 disgusting (ex-stray) cats and I always used to forage wild plants (dandelions, nettles) from my garden, which was a frequent dumping ground for these animals (I always did a daily check/removal of animal feces and thoroughly rinsed my wild plants, which may not have been enough!). I don't recall my personality shifting that much though!

At the moment, I'm doing a typical parasite cleanse (tincture+caps), coupled with regular liver flushes, but looking at some of the damaged animal livers, it's quite alarming what these flukes can do!

Based on what I've read, the liver fluke can often be the precursor to many/most disease processes. Really, avoiding this beast is of utmost importance...

If anyone has any flukey/fascioliasis insights, it would be most appreciated thanks (I want to keep this liver munching up, along with my high-vitamin CLO!).

ULTIMATELY, I suppose what I'm wondering is if this is russian roulette or if we have a chance through a failsafe approach to procuring/preparing animal livers...Please allay my fears!

All the best,

MrBBQ

Well, after some encouragement from my very good friends around here, I've decided to forego the searing altogether and keep the thermodynamics away from the fine flesh.

I've just taken a brand new carving knife and chopping board, and cut myself ~70g of thin slices of pastured Angus, which I placed alongside a garnish of finely chopped onion, garlic, cayenne, ginger, sun-dried sea salt and extra virgin olive oil.

I have to say that it tasted just like a butcher's shop smells - not very much like even rare cooked beef! I chewed a small slither beforehand without any adulteration, just to acquaint myself with the pure taste/texture. Quite unprecedented...Maybe I'll experiment with mustard and spices 'til I acquire the taste...

So, I'll just wait and see what happens now...I have some lamb chops and lamb's liver, as well as some beef bones in the fridge, which I'll be finishing over the next few days.

@Cosmo: Where do you order the NZ lamb from?

@TylerDurden: On a long enough time line, the survival rate of everyone drops to zero (sorry, just messing about). Do you buy grass-fed meat locally or via farms further afield? There's only one shop (it seems) in my locality that sells pastured meat and the farmer's market here is rubbish. The Angus beef that I bought worked out at £30/kg and the lamb chops a little less. I don't object to paying for quality, but I was just wondering what is actually considered reasonable to the seasoned (no pun intended) RAFer.

Thanks again for the help and support, which I really appreciate. This forum is an invaluable resource for the newbie.

Cheers,

MrBBQ

Thanks for attending to my questions/arguments. However, I'm looking to glean more information from you, if I can.

Initially, it's only by prosthetic/technological apparatus (from culture) and some adaptive intelligence that we have the capability to hunt, kill and butcher many animals - there's barely anything in our physiology that I've read that likens us to the "truer" omnivores. On many accounts, I struggle to comprehend how the human carnivore truly reconciles with nature. Having said that, maybe we adapted to raw animal foods in the presence of prosthetics/technology, yet we lack the typical short GI tract of omnivores/carnivores for rapid evacuation of putrefied matter (with it's complement of endo/mycotoxins). What's the general argument for low carbing? I mean, why have salivary amylase for carbohydrate pre-digestion if carbs are seldom ingested/masticated.

Having said all this, I shall be willing to adopt more raw animal foods along with the reduction of carbohydrates.

Also, calorie restriction with optimal nutrition in the context of optimal assimilation/absorption (quite a rare thing with all the atrophied intestinal villi, bile occlusion and the like) is a potential indicator for longevity, which is not often surveyed in a cross section of human populations...Time will obviously tell, but the Okinawans testify, along with some of the long-term CRON practitioners.

I think there's much to be said for a cross-disciplinary approach...

Once again, I really appreciate the sound attitude of everyone on this forum - definitely one of the best communities around!

All the best,

Scott M

Amazing, once again, a rapid, comprehensive response...Kudos!

I actually read your story Lex and you're certainly experiential in your approach, which I can appreciate.

My concern about parasites is based on research that I undertook when considering sashimi (WAI experimentation) for my pleasure. There were some reports (as an example) about parasite larvae from line caught mackerel sashimi causing temporary small intestine obstruction, which was very distressing for the consumer! I'd prefer not to induce my stress response on that account...I hate to involve allopathic medicine...

I'm pretty aware about the dynamics of the food chain (impact on fatty acid profile etc.), which is why I wouldn't eat non-pastured land animals or farmed fish, but one can only do one's best to bring in what one can!

Previously, my approach to transitioning between eating styles has been radical and overnight, but I'm gradually realising that the tippy toe waltz is the best facilitator of welcome change.

Tomorrow, I'll be visiting my local pastured meat supplier with the intention of picking up a nice cut of beef muscle along with some fat and bones...Can anyone recommend a particular cut for the n00b please?

Does anyone have a penchant for eyeballs or gonads (pretty high in nutrients)?! Hehe...

Incidentally, is everyone here accustomed to the practice of clearing old debris from the biliary system? Optimal bile flow is the critical factor in digestion and detoxification, amongst many other things. Bile means the difference between effective peristalsis and slowww digestive transit. I'm currently peeling the onion that is my bile occlusion and the more I kick out, the better I feel on a complete systemic scale.

I'm really wondering what it will be like to chew on raw flesh/fat tomorrow...

Does anyone use homemade mustard or horseradish, like they use wasabi/ginger with sashimi?

Oh, one more thing...dehydration!

Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?

Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?

As a n00b, sorry if I'm repeating past posts or blog FAQs...(!)

Scott M