To quote Borat, Wah wah weh wah!

As usual, you got it wrong. The 90 percent figure study has been damned as being highly biased:-

http://www.bepress.com/jhubiostat/paper135/

and just one study(or review in this case, rather) of just a few studies does not validate attacking 90 percent of absolutely all studies. You need several studies, and such studies need to overwhelm the studies showing the opposite claim.

Still doesn't prove the validity of the 90%. And everyone knows how the pharmaceutical industries twist studies to get drugs approved and vaccines validated. If 90+% of studies are for pharmaceuticals, then in my opinion, the 90% claim would make absolute perfect sense. Otherwise, we're at a stalemate here, Geoffrey.

As for Bruce Kleisner, he has proven to be even dodgier than AV. And orthorexia is not a made-up disease, it is perfectly genuine  - there are plenty of people like Bruce K who are always looking for  the "perfect diet" who, of course, never find it. As a result of his bizarre behaviour, many people have been misled into trying all sorts of dangerous, weird diets such as Matt Stone's nonsense etc. No wonder AV-Skeptics imploded.

We get it Geoffy. You want to character assassinate Bruce Lee, aka Bruce Kleisner, aka Ian C, aka the original AV skeptic, but he still had ideas worthy of hearing out. Oh please, you know how many people have obsessive behaviours in this world? Find me someone who doesn't. Matt Stone is experimenting, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't condone every aspect of his diet, but he's going off of logic, reasoning, experience, and understanding, plus some theorizing. He isn't just making up things as he goes along even if he fumbles occasionally.

You know why AV-skeptics imploded? Because there's so much truth to Aajonus's teachings, and because the aggressive, hateful, chastising approach those guys adopted just leads to anarchy in the food science forum and utter self-destruction.

And orthorexia isn't a disease. That's nonsense. If anything, it's a behaviour. There is no physical defect that can be identified and associated with the behaviour. Read the work of Thomas Szasz.

I used to dabble in chocolate pudding fruit. Then one day I ate a not so ripe raw plantain and vomited like crazy, nauseous for hours first, followed by diarrhea next day. I haven't touched chocolate pudding fruit since. And to this day, the thought of it makes me want to 

I'm off chocolate for life, thank you raw vegans with that "plantains can be eaten raw nonsense," ugghh.

I'm a bit confused by the twists and turns of this thread but will just say that anyone who "detoxes"  after eating whatever it happens to be, is a fool to keep on eating it.

Don't even get me started on Vinny..... 

On rawpaleoforum, you can expect a labrynth of discussion if you get the right set of conflicting beliefs in the same room. In fact, the beauty lies in these discussions and also attracts greater numbers of "guests" to join the community. We should all be proud of our heated discussions on this forum in my opinion, although we can do without the tarring and feathering that normally accompanies them.

Well, Raw-al, you said the magic words. What's your opinion on and beef with the self-appointed health nut guru.

Sore loser if you want… Thanks for your comprehensive answer anyway.  You can have all the dairy you want, it won’t harm me! I don’t care about Aajonus, Vinny Pinto or the other guys unknown to me you cite. I just wonder why people believe what those fanciful folks say while ignoring the scientific work of GC Burger, a work based on flawless logic, continuous questioning of all beliefs (including his own findings) and several decades of meticulous experimentations and observations.

Cheers
François

I'll make a deal with you, François. If you read Aajonus' books with an open mind and open gut (might be difficult since you're so deep into the anti-raw dairy dogma), then I'll read RC Cheeseburger's books with an equally open mind. What do you say? Not too biased to take on this challenge, are ya?

It is rather unwise to cite Bruce K on this forum as he is a notorious former troll of other raw forums, someone who randomly changes his fanatical dietary viewpoint every few months, thus making it clear he has no real credibility.  The carbs issue only applies to those who do badly on RZC, like me, and those people only need to add in a few carbs to get back to normal, they don't have to add in vast amounts.


As for the detox issue, that's invalid. That is, detox cannot be instigated by a particular food(except clay which actually has scientific data backing its detoxing abilities). So, if a particular food "causes more so-called detox than any other food", then that is a sign that that food is harming that person's health. Genuine detox does exist, such as when a rawist eats cooked food and then goes into detox to expel the poisons from that cooked food, and rawists do experience some minor detoxes at random as they slowly rebuild their bodies after decades on SAD diets, but that's all.

Bruce K may have been a troll, but his ideas weren't completely kooky, in fact some even made a whole lotta sense for a crazy troll. His change of dietary beliefs is no different than the change of beliefs that countless people across the world experience, including you yourself a long time ago. Character assination can't hide genuine intelligent pursuit, not in my eyes at least.

Tough guy (tyler durden, lol), if 90% of scientific studies according to one significant study news article are b*******, then how would your claim that only clay truly induces detox because it's backed by studies make sense? Or better yet, where are the references other than your own conclusions that prove that statement? Aajonus' claims regarding detox are based on experience, studying cadavers and how toxins store in them (he's even said that on the radio), as well as through iridological analysis of his clients over the years (which he has explained he didn't trust that science until it proved true with his girlfriend and the loose IUD in We Want To Live), not to mention testing fluids and tissue samples from detoxes for toxins resulting in positive test results. Your claims are based on your biased belief in my opinion that detox beyond colds/flus cannot exist. If not, please provide a reference or genuine expert to back up line two of your second paragraph. Also, explain Aajonus detoxifying epoxy leter on in the updated We Want 2 Live from a surgery when he was a teenager. Or explain the detoxifications in his newsletters of vaccines years later into the primal diet at random. Aajonus' own vaccine detox (tetanus; pictures included) came 50 years after recieving the vaccine!

Ok, I see. You won’t be able to highlight the nuisance of dairy products in such a situation. When we eat cooked food, our immune system is so much saturated with a ceaseless intake of abnormal molecules  that it doesn’t react anymore. It is in a state of  tolerance (like on strike because there’s ways too much work). You’ve  got to get it out of this state of tolerance, and for that you have to eat 100% raw for some time – usually a few months.

I think I hear a sore loser.  Obviously, dairy wasn't a problem for his man. Plus, how can you claim that any negative symptom is bad and should be avoided at all costs, when one of the most health giving functions of the body, infectious disease, is the quickest and easiest way to detoxify the body in a modern toxic world. Especially in those who have stuffed and snailing along lymphatic systems. And the symptoms of these VITAL detoxes can be quite horrendous, as everyone from Aajonus to Vinny Pinto has described. According to Aajonus, these sometimes awful detoxifications are the only way to truly clean your body out. Without them, you will remain toxic or only get more toxic.

So if a certain food tends to induce more detoxification (such as dairy for many people), then how is avoiding it truly benenficial? Many people claim eating "too many" eggs induces unwanted symptoms (called detox; remember how high eggs are in detox-inducing sulfur folks), yet these symptoms aren't a sign of an "intolerance" or "allergy." Same for coconut products. How can we demonize these products when in reality they're bringing us a simply more aggressive and quicker, and even better targeted, solution to our health woes, even if at the cost of a few nasty symptoms for a short span of time.

Now, as far as digestion issues and other true symptoms of "problems" on the PD or RPD, look to Bruce Lee aka Bruce K aka Ian C of HEDing or Matt Stone of Rest and Refeed. Adding carbohydrates in greater quantities to your PD or RPD can have a positive impact on your metabolism and digestion, even in the form of lots of "tooth-loosening" fruits. But again, that's a matter of not enough carbohydrates, not excessive dairy.

Well Phillip, you understand the point I was trying to make, that the whole kangaroo trial for aajonus and the primal diet is absurd, and that we're all of the same bloodline metaphorically speaking regardless of the words used to name this forum and the diet of the majority who use it.

Funny that you brought that up. Actually, Aajonus does drink coconut water. In fact, I served him a glass personally. When offered vegetable juice on the other hand, he refused it. Might have just been the occasion. Either that, or he's starting to turn raw paleo.  

Most PDers follow AV's advice and hardly eat any fruit and just drink juiced veg, not eating solid veg.

Coconut cream, like veggie juice, is indeed processed. Processing can cause all sorts of problems. I for example have no real issues with solid raw coconuts, but get appalling, nasty stomach aches after eating any raw coconut oil. Raw honeycomb is fine if eaten in small quantities(palaeo peoples would never have been able to eat much honey), but raw honey minus the wax is also a bit too processed. Raw nuts are used too much, given AV always using them in his recipes - nuts contain antinutrients so are not ideal in quantity.

Most raw paleo dieters eat no raw vegetables and minimal fruit (some even go "zero carb").

But that's coconut oil, not coconut cream. Coconut cream is just prechewed and fiber removed coconut meat. It's about as processed as chewing coconut meat counts as processing, in fact, it's even less processed since our mouths add saliva to the mix, the only true difference between coconut meat and cream.

What about the people who have trouble with vegetable fiber? Aajonus says that when we eat whole vegetables, the only portion of the vegetables we can digest is the juice of the vegetables and that our bodies separate that part from whole veggies throwing out the rest in our fecal matter undigested. So in other words, he says veggie juice is essentially just replicating what our body would extract but without the pulp it'd normally have to throw out. Veggie juice from a masticating juicer is no more processed than chewed vegetables, and in fact is less processed because of the lack of saliva in the mix.

When paleo man got a hold of honey, as I've seen the African tribes do on bizarre foods with andrew zimmerman, wouldn't they eat plenty of raw honey and honeycomb each one of them? If you just ransacked a vacant beehive, you're not gonna let any go to waste. Especially if you rarely get to feast like that. Again, that's what the African tribe did on bizarre foods.

Ask most long-term PDers, not just starting noobs, and they'd confirm for ya, we don't eat much raw nuts. That's a myth and misconception. Why? Because most of us have experienced no added benefits to our health eating them, not even for high adrenaline/high hormones (I have plenty and only exercise does the trick). I personally stopped eating nuts at all many many months ago after noticing this. Most PDers would agree. And most PDers who do recipes, only do sauces for meats, like that guy who posted his testimonial on youtube. His sauce was avocado, tomato, cucumber, etc. if I recall correctly. No nuts involved.

What symptoms have you noticed arise when people eat too much unheated honey? I'm hoping you don't ring off a list of genuine detox symptoms, but rather that you say genuine reactiosn to the honey itself as a substance.

Also just realized something, we all better stop driving cars, using running water, etc, because it turns out this forum is named:

Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

In other words, lifestyle, as in, technologies and all, are inclusive.  

Isn’t this forum about diet? Driving a car and using modern technological devices such as computers and washing machines does not forbid you to eat raw paleo, as far as I know.

On the opposite, would it be ok to eat processed food and drink cow milk because you drive a car and use other modern technological devices?

This forum is mainly about diet, sure, but not completely. There are plenty of subsections on things other than diet, as well as even Geoff makes posts that are related to all sorts of alternative subject including one of his more recent postings. In fact, it appears less and less about diet, this forum, and more like a forum should be. About COMMUNITY and OPEN COMMUNICATION. And SHARED INTERESTS.

Again, you drive a car, use running water, etc. If you use all those things, then there's no reason to count out without any consideration any completely raw and unprocessed, health-giving foods based on the evolution myth or PURPORTED (not conclusive) dietary habits of a past era's people.

You're right Iguana, just because we drive cars doesn't magically spare us from the damage of modern processed foods. It's an irrelevant argument often used by the critics of Paleo diets.

Exactly, PROCESSED FOODS. Raw milk, more than 4 or 5 raw eggs a day, greater quantities of raw honey, are far from being processed foods.

Also, if raw paleo man (if such an evolutionary concept truly exists) had access to health-giving raw honey, large quantities of eggs, vegetable juicers, unpasteurized dairy including milk and butter, and even raw tomatoes (nightshade), it doesn't take a scientist to know that paleo man would have utilized these foods to his benefit. The concept that these foods would have negatively affected him/harmed him, these raw health-giving foods, is preposterous and based on biased and restrictive thinking.

You're a Primal Dieter! I'm a Primal Dieter! We're all Primal Dieters! Na na na na na, na na na!  (There's no guitar playing/rock n roll face)

Yes, and by the way the name of this forum is Raw Paleo Forum.

Animal milk was not consumed by humans in the paleolithic era (and even neither in South East Asia and Africa until very recently). Wild animals don't drink milk from other animal species and not even milk from their own specie when adults. Thus I fail to see what all these biased pro dairy arguments are doing here.

Do you drive a car? Surely that's not paleolithic. Nor is washing your clothes in a washing machine, storing your food in Ball jars with accompanying lids, and of course, cleaning your dishes with running water. The main reason, and only reason this forum is named raw paleo forum (or raw paleo diet forum as of the recent change), is because this site's creators edited their primal diets to remove all dairy and severely limit vegetable juice, only 2 factors of the primal diet, before creating this forum to pave the way for newcomers interested in raw animal food dieting. The raw paleolithic diet does not resemble the Loren cordain true paleolithic diet in any way other than being dairy free. Even the loren cordain paleolithic diet is known to contain large quantities of both fruit and vegetables (whole, raw), making it vastly different from raw paleo and making raw paleo look more and more like what it is, a slightly modified standard high fat/low carb primal diet.

Aajonus even counsels a primal dieter who will not eat meat for ethical reasons, as an example for my argument. Yet this man is considered a primal dieter on the primal diet by both himself and Aajonus. The modern term raw paleo diet as coined by Geoff and everyone's favorite self-appointed health guru, Vinny Pinto, who was the equivalent of the founding father, was created to branch off and dissociate from their dietary roots the normally dairy-rich primal diet as coined by Aajonus Vonderplanitz. To sum it up, it's complicated, but really we're all alike with different approaches to our raw primal diets. One last point: many people here on this forum will recognize Steffanson's research and other research Geoff has pointed them toward, but we gotta remember that Geoff found his raw diet thanks to Aajonus mainly with the other research only supplementing the original teachings of Aajonus that got him and consequently the rest of us going in the raw meat-based direction.

Sorry guys for the long drawn out reply.

Hi there Monk. Do you have a dropbox? I'd like to see the video of him preparing coconut cream. I'm supposed to make that for the first time tomorrow, but aren't sure about the loosening the coconut from the shell part. You're help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

When being American stinks..... We can screw up the rest of the world with ease, but we can't read your measurements. 

Actually, they have those here. Minus the massages, of course. I know a WAPF chapter leader who is a mother of five with one more now starting to cook. She has a helper/nanny. The only issue with the concept, is that it's not for the faint of wallet. In other words, they're rich, and other traditional/raw moms don't have that kind of money.

It'd be interesting if they had some sort of organization that paid the helpers and the helpers would help the individual families at no cost to the families themselves.