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Messages - 24isours

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Hot Topics / Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« on: February 04, 2014, 05:55:57 am »
Moreover, as Eric points out, Inuits have had plenty of access to sea mammals which are a totally different source of animal fat and proteins than beef. They live in a very different environment than our people too.

Seafood is also rich in iodine. I truly believe the extra iodine I do take does contribute to my success on RZC.

Hot Topics / Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« on: February 04, 2014, 03:34:22 am »
Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods. Don't let it progress into autoimmunity.

These are symptoms of low thyroid function. It's more than likely the people experiencing these symptoms were low on key minerals and vitamins that support the thyroid (selenium, vitamin a, vitamin d, iodine).

The thyroid tends to slow down on a low carb diet. Carbohydrates stimulate thyroid function. On a low carbohydrate diet it is especially important to include enough thyroid supportive nutrients.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Larger livers and RZC diet
« on: February 04, 2014, 03:02:26 am »
I am not so worried. There do seem to be a number of people who do well on RZC here. I am just wondering what makes them successful on it. I used to think that it was their bodies'  extreme reaction to carbs that somehow made them more able to live off a protein/fat diet.

I don't know how you went about a RZC diet but what seems to work for me is being sure to get a minimum of 75-80% of calories from fat and at least 15-20% from protein. Since I go to the gym 6 days a week, 20% of my calories from protein is more ideal. I'm also sure to include plenty of organ meat, water, some sea salt, vitamin d (whether from the sun or a cod liver oil supplement if I can't get out), and iodine.

General Discussion / Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« on: January 26, 2014, 11:05:28 pm »
The only reason I don't get my vitamin D from cod liver oil is because I can very easily overdose on vitamin A. I really don't do well if I supplement with extra vitamin A.

You might want to look into this supplement as the A to D ratio is almost equal.
600 IU of A and 400 IU of D per capsule.
I take three of these each day during the winter on top of the A I get from meat and do very well.

How do you know/feel when you are overdosing on A?

General Discussion / Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« on: January 25, 2014, 11:10:22 pm »
Why choose synthetic when whole food vitamins exist anyway? It would seem more like common sense to me that anything 'synthetic' could be of harm to the body. I myself take a form of Vitamin D from Cod Liver Oil in the winter when I'm not outside much soaking up the sun. Most, if not all vitamins and minerals are available through whole food supplements today.

WOW!!! Thanks so much for that info! I am going to try this because I have been at high doses of iodine. I am going to try to increase my liver consumption and drop the iodine. Will report.

You are welcome, Dr. D! I took Iodine for quite a while to reach 'Iodine Sufficiency' and didn't lower my dose once I was saturated and that is when the problems started. I'm at around 7mg right now and may lower my dose even more. If you have been taking it for a while at high doses it would be smart to lower your dose.  Whole body sufficiency takes about a year to achieve at 12.5mg per day.

Could you elaborate on what "protein iodination" means and also possibly post the links where you found that info?

It is basically the process of Iodine attaching to protein to increase production of Thyroid Hormones. Protein seems to stimulate thyroid function when the intake of Retinol is adequate.

Here is the link:

After doing some research for the past few days I came across some really interesting information about the relationship between Retinol (Vitamin A) and Iodide uptake: Retinol significantly increases Iodide uptake as well as protein iodination, therefore the more Vitamin A and protein one eats the more thyroid hormone the body produces.

      I've been on a high dose of Iodide for over 3 years now (50+ mg per day). My experiment for the last few days has been to completely stop my Iodide supplementation for 2 days and at the same time increase my Retinol intake. Usually, when I increase my Vitamin A intake to current levels (even initially) I get the symptoms I mentioned earlier in this post. Well, the symptoms did not show up the first two days while doing this.
      Today I decided to supplement again with a much smaller dose of Iodide (7mg) and to continue eating higher amounts of Vitamin A and so far so good! I actually feel even better!

So my conclusion:

Too much Iodide can cause Hyperthyroidism (this is proven in studies).
Combine too much Iodide and Vitamin A and you get symptoms of Hyperthyroidism which are identical to the symptoms I thought were being caused by too much Retinol.

Thanks for all the replies!


I got some weird increased heart beats... I wonder if I ate too much fat? I truly gorged on it.... because I thought it was so delicious, and I digest it just perfectly well....
I think I might have gotten a too deep ketosis? that is what can happen too I found out.. and increased heart beat is one symptom. Have you ever experienced this 24isours?

It could very well be your body adapting. I noticed when first adapting I had some palpitations that went away rather quickly. Did you increase your salt intake recently? Maybe you've increased it too much and are dehydrating yourself? Dehydration can cause palpitations/racing heart. It could be also be higher blood pressure (can cause faster heartbeats) due to an increase in salt as well.

Thank you for the great info, Inger! I'm going to experiment and try purchasing some lamb liver instead of beef liver in the future. Btw, the symptoms of high copper and high levels of Vitamin A are very similar. Maybe it is the copper after all. Also, Vitamin C is known to help flush out excess copper and whilst being pure carnivore (eating mostly muscle meat) I don't seem to get much of it. Maybe this is why some on this forum do better eating larger amounts of liver.

What percentage of fat intake is you diet?

It could be a Zero carb issue, especially if you are not getting enough fat, and getting to much protein

I eat a lot of different kinds of fats. The belly trimmings, intestinal fats, suet, bone marrow, brains, along with all the organ meats and blood.
When eating ZC I personally think its especially important to eat the entire animal, so that you get all the vitamins and minerals in there proper portions.

250-270g of fat per day
70g protein
The only organ meat I get in is 12.5 g of heart and 12.5 g liver mixed in my meat per day.
I make sure to soak up all the blood with the meat.
I keep my protein intake low enough to stay completely fat adapted.
I also supplement with 4-5 teaspoons of sea salt per day..
I've been doing this for a while and have not had any problems.

I eat about a pound of lamb liver per week.

Have you been eating a lb of lamb liver per week consistently for a long period of time ?

It seemed to take quite some time to start feeling the negative effects. I've been eating liver every day now for 2 years. I'd say after close to a year of doing this (@ an intake around 15,000 IU per day) the symptoms started. Obviously Vitamin A is fat soluble and builds up in the body; perhaps I was severely deficient and the body had major repairs to make before storing 'unused' retinol and now the stores are full?
If our bodies don't store excess retinol and just expel it, why has there been cases of toxicity?

I think you are talking about the conversion of beta carotene to true Vitamin A which isn't converted well at all in humans.

I'm pure carnivore and only eat ground beef (mixed with heart and liver) and beef fat.
Everything I eat is indeed 100% grass fed and quality shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for sharing. Are you certain that it was the liver that caused your symptoms? Did anything else about your diet change? I eat a lot of liver, and have never experienced the symptoms you note. I think there are a lot of other pathways involved in Vit A use that are involved in this issue, so if those are damaged or inoperable in you then you might have other issues to deal with that contribute to your problems.

With respect to the amount of VitA in liver, there's a huge amount of variability for all foods with respect to their nutrient densities. Some liver will have lower VitA, others will have much higher.

When I reduced the amount of liver I was eating I started to feel much better. That was the only dietary change I had made at that time.
Perhaps damaged pathways or perhaps optimally functioning pathways?

I've read that toxicity in the liver can occur at intakes as low as 15,000 IU per day as well as possible negative effects on bone health above 4 or 5,000 IU's (if I remember correctly).

How much liver are/were you all eating per day/week?

I am very careful when it comes to my Vitamin A intake as I have experienced some problems with too much Retinol in my diet. For a long time I went by the USDA's 'Raw Beef Liver' Vitamin A content which is completely INACCURATE. Too much Vitamin A does indeed cause problems and I'm sure most of you are aware of this.

If we look below at the Raw Beef Liver Analaysis, it tells us there is
4732 IU of Vitamin A per 28 of grams liver or 95% of our daily value.

Now when we look at the same serving size of 'Beef Liver, Cooked, Braised' it gives us a value of
8881 IU of Vitamin A per 28 grams of liver or 178% of our daily value!

So, depending on our Vitamin A stores to begin with this can be really dangerous for some of us; especially those who eat liver every day. When I first started eating liver every day I was eating almost 15,000 IU of Vitamin A. After a while I started getting a lot of headaches, nausea, weakness and some pain in my joints. When I lowered my intake these problems went away in a few days. I now eat no more than 12g of Raw Liver per day (a little less than 4,000 IU).

Adequate intake of Vitamin A
3,500 IU For Adult Females
4,500 IU For Adult Males

Some symptoms of too much Vitamin A:
Birth defects (> 8,000 IU / day) osteoporosis, hairloss, bone pain, elevated blood sugar, liver damage,headaches, dizziness, double vision, bleeding gums,seizures, confusion, dry / peeling skin, hydrocephaly,dry cough, asthma, liver damage (> 25,000 IU / day).

Health / Re: Help need urgent advice from strange urine after 50days ZC
« on: October 31, 2013, 08:32:47 pm »
24isours, very useful information! Thank you so much for sharing. Sounds like the perfect diet  :)
I have upped my fat a lot last days, I eat just plain GF beef fat and I can eat so much.... I am going to try your WOE and add even more sea salt to my well water. Wow... this is going to be a very cheap WOE too...  :)
I am thinking of using only seafood and grass fed organs for my protein. I have so many lamb hearts, kidneys and livers in my fridge right now!

Glad to share! Yes, it is cheap but effective :) Great, good luck! Keep us updated. I'll be lurking around, so if I could be of any help just ask!

Health / Re: Help need urgent advice from strange urine after 50days ZC
« on: October 31, 2013, 02:53:50 am »
So you believe that if more than about 12% of calorie intake is from protein that you will no longer be "fat adapted"?

It seems to be around that mark in my personal experience. My body seems to use fat most efficiently at this intake (meaning I feel overall at my best mentally and physically). I wouldn't say I'd no longer be fat adapted as a lot of us are somewhat fat adapted but I don't think I'd be completely fat adapted. My body will most likely be using some protein as a source of glucose as I notice I do gain some water weight (retain salt) if I get up to around 75g protein.

You say that if you have too much protein that you get a head ache when supplementing with salt. If, instead, you do not supplement with salt, or less salt, in order to avoid the head aches, how do you feel?
If I eat more protein and avoid the extra salt I use when I eat less protein I find myself nauseous a lot of the time. My energy also isn't as consistent and I have bouts of weakness. Exercising is much harder as I tend to run out of 'fuel'. When I keep my protein at low levels I can exercise for hours on end if I wanted to. Also, I don't have that mental 'balanced' feeling when my protein intake is above this level. I also tend to lean toward being constipated when upping protein even slightly above 70g. I would attribute most of this to being stuck in 'low carb limbo'. In other words, the body trying to adapt to using fat as fuel after the protein is used up.

Health / Re: Help need urgent advice from strange urine after 50days ZC
« on: October 31, 2013, 12:53:08 am »
Im 73inches 144lb and i do not eat any salt almost since i tried to to increase salt and got total fatigue. I could not get out of bed almost. This was salt from cheese. Im trying to gain wight by lifting weights.

My main problem is that im having this white coating on my thong no mater what i eat, it dont get better and it dont get worse. Also im never hungry or thirsty and that makes it hard for me knowing how much i should eat. I usually start to burping after i eat any crabs and when i swallow it feels like air is coming up hindering me from swallowing. I try to eat two big meals a day one in the morning and one in the night. Have tried one meal a day but that got me way to weak.

What i eat is usual (for one meal), 200g lean meat (fish, beef, moose, deer, mutton) and 200g of bone marrow, or beef fat OR 120g butter. I try to get about 2000kcal from fat and 500kcal from meet. Most often i can not eat this much.

Have you tried completely cutting dairy( including butter)? I wouldn't recommend getting extra salt from cheese, rather sea salt if you could. Dairy can cause lots of problems.

Health / Re: Help need urgent advice from strange urine after 50days ZC
« on: October 31, 2013, 12:16:05 am »
Wow that's 88% fat, 12% protein. I thought you had a little more protein than that from what I remembered. Hows your anaerobic lifting performance? Have you ever had blood ketones tested?

I've been wanting to try this more. It seems like when I control my lean meat and fat separately I lean towards higher fat. What's your lean mass?

I do fine with 70 grams and probably could even go a bit lower. I don't lift weights but I am into calisthenics as well as resistance type exercises and my performance is excellent!

I have never had my blood ketones tested.

I'm 5'10 165 Lbs. I'd say I'm around 10% Body Fat.

Something I've learned a long the way to help me find the ratio sweet spot (to stay fat adapted) is to always add an extra 5% to the total calories received from protein when I buy my ground beef. So, if the label says 65% Lean - i'll calculate it at 70%.

I'll also consider the amount of salt I need per day to be directly correlated to wether or not I am getting too much protein. So, based on my knowledge - the more salt I need per day, the better. If I need less salt, then most likely I am retaining water and some protein is being used as glucose. This is usually justifiable on the scale.

How do I know I need less salt because I'm getting too much protein?
Well, I'll get headaches shortly after supplementing my salt.
The opposite will happen when I am at the sweet spot. I'll tend to feel a little sluggish and may get headaches when I don't have enough salt and will feel better usually instantly when supplementing it.

Health / Re: Help need urgent advice from strange urine after 50days ZC
« on: October 30, 2013, 08:42:58 pm »
I've been at 250g Fat / 70g Protein daily for quite sometime.
I supplement with 4-5 teaspoons of sea salt per day to keep my body functioning optimally.

Health / Re: Help need urgent advice from strange urine after 50days ZC
« on: October 23, 2013, 09:24:23 pm »
Both sodium and chloride are important for keeping the kidneys in shape (and the body hydrated) to clear toxins. During the adaption phase of the low carb diet the body may initially need extra of both as it is getting used to the decreased potassium intake. You should make sure you are getting enough of both minerals. I would gradually increase your intake of both until you feel well. Be sure to drink enough water as well.

i understand that most on this forum don't think that a ZC diet is healthy, and that organ meats are essential. but in 7 months of ZC i've almost completely eliminated all signs of a lifelong candida infection, not to mention carpal tunnel/arthritis and a whole host of other undiagnosed mental/physical issues. no signs of any vitamin a deficiency here. the only setback i experienced was when I started eating organ meats, so based on my experiences it is not essential in a ZC diet.

That is wonderful, glad to hear it! So, how long were you without a source of Vitamin A?

Except that it often is a problem, for many people. You can't just give blanket recommendations and expect them to work for everyone.  Humans are way more complex than that.

And the goal is to figure out why it is a problem for that person, no? All I am recommending is possibly trying out something that has worked for me.

It's surprising to me that I haven't noticed more problems from liver intake, given my own zinc-deficiency and copper-overload symptoms. I can't currently explain it.

I can't recommend a muscle-meat-only diet, in part because over the past 4 years or so, most of the people I've seen adopt a ZC-type diet have eventually reported problems and added other foods back into their diets, with subsequent improvements.

With proper dietary and lifestyle adjustments ZC shouldn't be a problem.

after about a week of having 1-2ozs of raw grassfed beef liver daily, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity.. and many of my candida symptoms returned and it took me several weeks to go back to normal. have since cut out all organ meats and am doing just great on a muscle meat only diet.

I would have to agree with PaleoPhil from my experience with my ZC diet. Organ meat is a very important part of the diet. What has worked for me is finding the sweet spot for organ meat intake. I get about 3500 IU of Vitamin A per day from 20g of Liver and 20g of Heart. You may feel better now as you clear out high amounts of Retinol/Copper but you will more than likely need a good source of Retinol as your stores become used up. Balancing Vitamin A intake with Vitamin D is very important as well. I recommend getting Vitamin D from sunlight as dietary sources of Vitamin D compete with Vitamin A. Vitamin D will also help balance out the effects of over-consumption of Retinol (Vitamin A).

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