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Messages - panacea

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26
I've done some reading and I'm intrigued by the nutritional ketogenic diet, raw meat (zero carb) diet, and raw animal food diet principles, and want to combine them into an easy modern "very low carb animal food diet."

My plan is to get the benefits of being in nutritional ketosis, the benefits on digestion of eating less food mass because animal protein/fat is of higher quality and contains less fiber than plant foods, and the benefits of course of eating raw high quality bacteria-rich foods.

For this I am thinking of eating only high-quality organic/free range raw egg yolks (just the yolk, not the sac or the white), about 24 a day. Then I would eat about 13 oz of raw grass-fed grass-finished beef which is a 80/20 lean/fat grind, and every other day eat 1 raw wild caught atlantic salmon fillet and back off on the yolks some (the fattiest brand I can find which fits the wild caught parameter). On top of this I would also drink spring water as desired along with real sea salt (from ancient oceans which contains small amounts of calcium and potassium naturally) especially if I exercise, to act as a kind of electrolyte replenishing drink. All of the animal food would be divided into about 5 meals a day at first, working up gradually into 2-3 meals a day as my body learns to handle it.

The only major sources of carbs on such a diet would be the egg yolks, which contain 0.6 g of carbs per yolk, eating 24 yolks a day as my upper limit would put me at around 14.4 g of carbs per day, and whatever minute quantities I absorb from the raw beef and salmon. Still, that should keep me below 30 g of net carbs a day to remain in ketosis.

I'm waiting on a shipment of the beef to get here before I start, does anyone see anything wrong with my plan or something I'm missing?


27
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 14, 2014, 09:22:10 am »
The adult cold-exposure brown fat adaptation happens in many mammals, not just humans, however it is one of the most energy-expensive type of tissue you could store/generate, as merely 50 grams of it can use 20% of your normal daily intake. From an evolutionary perspective, it only makes sense to have brown fat if you are a hibernating animal, or are frequently cold and have access to a lot of food to sustain its energy cost (much more food than you would typically find on land without speed and tools, which you wont have if you have a lot of fat and are naked). However such food is abundant near bodies of water. Brown fat is still mostly useful for infants though, although we retain this ability through adulthood.

28
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 14, 2014, 07:41:35 am »
At last, you have, very grudgingly admitted that some humans might be better adapted to temperate climates than hot ones. Well, that is at least a start.

It's actually a completely different thing than a cold climate, lol. My opinion on this hasn't shifted in years, your delusions of me admitting something as if I ever said anything to the contrary is truly disturbing. Do you have any recollection of what we're debating?

Quote
This is particularly short-sighted an opinion  given that it is already known that pigs have too few sweat glands so need to wallow in mud or water  primarily  in order to cool off. They also use mud as sunscreen and it is claimed they may use it for scenting. This does by no means mean they are adapted to aquatic or semi-aquatic  environments. Similiarly, the fact that humans and many other land mammals may routinely wash themselves in water or swim does not make them adapted to an aquatic environment, let alone a semi-aquatic one. Besides, what about  those humans who have adapted better  to desert environments than aquatic ones?
Here's more detailed  stuff debunking the aquatic ape theory. Not difficult to find since the Aquatic Ape theory is long discredited due to having major flaws in it:-

First of all, did you wipe that egg off your face yet, because in case you missed it, in your routine ability to google something in 5 seconds and post a link, you posted something that contradicts your entire point. Just wanted to make sure that sank in. By the way, pigs/boars also need wallowing to cleanse themselves of parasites/insects . This is just how pigs/boars are, you're the one who brought it up attempting to use them as an example of an animal with subcutaneous fat that doesn't routinely submerge in water (or mud, which is soil+water, I made it easy on your brain, see?) There is simply no other reason to be relatively naked and have subcutaneous fat, do you see that now? Or have you found an animal which is an exception? Really, just answer, because you keep avoiding these great milestones your mind must be grudgingly admitting to, yet you skip them every time to save face.

Yes, our skin (external part of our body) is adapted to water, that is exactly what wallowing/swimming indicate. Do you see that now? Don't dodge the question now Tyler (;

I realize you have an irrational fear of the term "semi aquatic", as all defensive people get this way when they are wrong and not humble enough to admit it. So let's see if you can clearly state for the record that you now see that humans require water routinely applied on the surface of their skin, like all other above-ground animals with relatively naked skin and subcutaneous fat, so that we, humans, are typical in that the skin of our bodies relies on touching water. Whether or not your ignorant mind understands the connection that our natural behavior seeks out water particles so that they can routinely come into contact with our skin (all over) makes us semiaquatic is not my problem. I can't teach you common sense.

As about the adaptations of the 3 ethnic groups, I said the only dramatic difference is skin color - elongated limbs or slightly stubbier noses/body builds don't equate to major heat losses/gains. At least not anything in comparison to skin color due to sunlight intensity in those varying areas.

What you seem to fail to comprehend is the striking similarities between all three groups - all three have extremely fat infants for example, with lots of white fat (which is the worst form for insulation and body heat, but the best form for buoyancy). I know that's a shocker to you because you're wondering how babies are floating with wet cloths being scrubbed on them. There must have been some evolutionary reason though, think hard Tyler!

By the way, hilariously, the two links you've posted as of yet to "discredit" the aquatic ape theory is one website created by a single man who personally attacks elaine morgan/AAH proponents more than he pays attention to the theory itself and the other is by cecil adams which you can read all about what kind of character he is, in his own words here, http://www.straightdope.com/pages/faq/cecil or maybe click the link "Ask the master" on his website.

Tyler, you're a joke. I'm done debating with you out of pity for you, everyone here can clearly figure it out for themselves with the information I've given and some light reading. Have fun believing your right but actually being wrong for the rest of your life, just because you have know-it-all syndrome (when really we both know that's a look-up-contrary-information-on-google-read-it-for-5-secs-then-post-it-as-if-you-read-it-before-today syndrome)

29
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 14, 2014, 12:58:53 am »
Quote
Ok, if as van and co suggest, we ignore all references to technology and focus on modern humans,  not early hominids, then, obviously, East Asians are best suited for a colder climate, Caucasians for a more temperate climate, and SubSaharan Africans for a hotter climate. Seems awfully straightforward, given the various different physical adaptations of the three groups.

It's impossible to ignore technology because east asians and caucasians especially rely on technology to survive in those climates. The only significant adaptation those three groups have is adaption to sunlight exposure intensity, not temperature or the various other climactic differences. The obvious truth still stands that all modern humans the world over are better adapted to live nakedly and without technology in temperate or hot (but still close to bodies of water and tree shade) climates, not cold ones. This is without any technology whatsoever. That lets us know what our bodies are actually adapted to, regardless of where we can comfortably survive with technological aid or uncomfortably survive without technological aid. Where can thrive, be comfortable, with our naked bodies - that's our adapted natural habitat. See what common sense looks like?

30
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 14, 2014, 12:55:17 am »
Just finished reading the rest of your post Tyler, more flimsy logic:

Quote
Again, you miss the point. Wood would not always have been available for fire. After all,  the  available wood could have been soaked by storms or flooding,  for example,  plus the Yaghans could not always have been in a position to light a fire during every  single activity they did such as hunting and foraging. So, if fire was so  absolutely essential to their survival, as you claim, how come they were able to survive at times during periods with no access to any fires, such as when hunting or foraging?

If it flooded, the wood would be the least of their problems, but alas they lived near cape horn so it wasn't a problem (use your brain).
As about rain, they had rock shelters, language, boats, and fire, but weren't smart enough to protect the wood from rain? Are you kidding me? They had at least as much intelligence as you, and even you could understand the concept of protecting your firewood from rain. Your attempts to support your imaginary facts (that they didnt use fires a lot, even though reports say they did, and you weren't there) are just getting ridiculous.

31
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 14, 2014, 12:42:29 am »
Lol Tyler, from the same wikipedia page and paragraph you posted:

Quote
In order to survive in a given area, wild boars require a habitat fulfilling three conditions: heavily brushed areas providing shelter from predators, water for drinking and bathing purposes and an absence of regular snowfall



Talk about having an egg on your face.

The requirement for wild boars to survive is to be able to wallow, it's not a "I like to do it thing." They can and will die off eventually if they never do it. You're simply wrong. It's a requirement for survival. Boars need to wallow/live part of their lives submerged in water (or water in the form of muddy water) to survive, just like humans. There are no humans that live without wallowing/dousing/living without routinely applying water on the surface of their skin, besides many animals like wolves who can.

I never said humans lived in an aquatic environment, I said our natural habitat is semiaquatic. That means living partly on land and partly in water. That is what boars and humans do. You can say that just bathing/wallowing doesn't make boars semiaquatic, but you'd be wrong, because it's essential for survival. No matter what boars are defined as on wikipedia, their actual natural habitat defines their actual natural nature, and their actual natural habitat includes wallowing in water, and roaming around on land - semiaquatic, semiterrestrial, they mean the same thing.

So, in conclusion, unequivocally, humans depend on water, not just for drinking but for the exterior of our bodies, which defines us as semiaquatic (relying on bodies of water to exist), and our bodies reflect that with our evolutionary adaptations of subcutaneous fat, voluntary breathing, natural breath-hold instincts of children, relatively naked skin, etc.

About AAH (aquatic ape theory):
Quote
Proponents of AAH suggest that many features that distinguish humans from their nearest evolutionary relatives emerged because the ancestors of humans underwent a period when they were adapting to a semiaquatic existence, but returned to terrestrial life before having become fully adapted to the aquatic environment. Variations within the hypothesis suggests these protohumans to have spent time either wading, swimming or diving on the shores of fresh, brackish, alkaline or saline waters, and feeding on littoral resources

What part of that do you not understand is obviously backed by a mountain of tangible evidence, and is not "consequently debunked" or "discredited" in any way whatsoever? What part of you are wrong are you not getting?

32
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 13, 2014, 07:29:04 am »
Quote
Try to hold your breath underwater and then tell me humans are semiaquatic. :)  I am ignorant on the subject, but I don't believe we fit the definition.

We are one of the few partly land based animals with the ability to voluntarily hold our breath, giving us temporary underwater survival.

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General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 13, 2014, 06:49:51 am »
Pigs and other "land animals" which are relatively naked either live partly underground like naked moles or are wallowers. Wild humans aren't underground animals or wallowers, so all that's left is aquatic or semiaquatic. Aquatic makes no sense, so all that's left is semiaquatic. You found an example of a land animal that has subcutaneous fat that is a wallower, which a human is not. You still cannot find an example of a land animal that does not wallow, yet is still relatively naked with subcutaneous fat, because that's just not how animals evolve. Basically, you found a way to meet the minimum requirements of what I asked you to find, without actually finding something to discredit the overwhelming evidence we are semiaquatic. Therefore, your finding is useless, although a great waste of your time.

You are resorting to posting more wild claims by cherry picking articles from Google, anyone can do that to support any crazy viewpoint. This is useless to everyone. Use your own brain for once Tyler and see what's staring you in the face.

As about the people who don't use showers, I never said they had to use showers, I also said washing with wet cloths (when bodies of water aren't around), however this is a technological substitute that doesn't exist in nature, so therefore can't be our natural habitat. Similar logic follows for wallowing in mud.

About Yaghans, if there was no wood for fire, then where did all of the plant life suddenly go and how did the Yaghans feed themselves? You completely lack the ability to use logic and reason, despite fantasizing you have the ability.

Of course, your brain is simply unable to admit you are wrong, but the others here might benefit from such an obvious fact.


34
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 12, 2014, 10:55:19 am »
By the way, it's quite funny you think we aren't semi-aquatic when the majority of humans the world over frequently (usually daily sometimes multiple times in a single day) bathe in water (showers, baths, rubbing down with wet cloths/hoses, or going oldschool with rivers/beaches/ponds/lakes), when we all know pets which are kept indoors and fed just as much processed food as we are, don't need or desire baths every single day unless they get really dirty from mud etc.

Is anyone else here not semi-aquatic and able to live nakedly without fires unless you want extra comfort in the subarctic climates without bathing except when it rains like a true terrestrial animal?

How about anyone here who could really rough it up and go all natural and live on a mild climate island with a beach you can bathe in every day, tropical fruit hanging from trees, not to mention the shade the trees provide, full of mussels, crabs, insect life etc you can feast on, without any fires (as what would be the point?) I mean, I've never heard of people getting stranded on tropical islands and surviving without fire, it's just not our natural habitat! But getting stranded in a subarctic climate with no fire that's a guaranteed survival right there.

In any case, you must not be very popular with the ladies when they come over and you tell them "by the way, I don't have a working shower, as I'm a land animal, not semi-aquatic. I don't need to bathe in water, I bathe in body odor."

35
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 12, 2014, 04:27:15 am »
Percentages whether 1%-4% (it's disputed, your article is one among a sea of them, some with more recent dates / better equipment / better methods) that state anywhere from 1-6% genetic difference depending on what you compare etc. As well, the genetic difference between humans/neanderthals isn't absolutely known. The point I was trying to make still stands - small genetic differences can mean dramatic physiological differences, we weren't the same species as Neanderthals, and having 1-4% of neanderthals still in us (as an article suggests it, even though you can always find one that says 10-20% to support your side of the argument) doesn't mean we are Neanderthals.

Neanderthals did have fur according to current scientific thought, your article is one among a sea of them. Again, we have two different viewpoints both backed by science, so it's useless to use these unreachable Neanderthals to support either side of the argument. All we can really use is logic. Not posting links to "consequently discredited theories" as they aren't discredited, that's just what your logical filter interpreted. I can't fix that problem you have, of not having good logical filters to interpret information. If you actually want to contribute something, then show a single reason we would evolve subcutaneous fat while not being semiaquatic animals. In case you're confused, subcutaneous fat doesn't just mean "lots of fat", it means our fat is under our skin directly, like a dolphins, rather than around our organs, like true land based animals.

Furthermore, I was not unclear about Neanderthals extinction vs. lifespan, your ignorant assumption did all of the muddying of the water for you.

I could cite book after book for you to read and it will get nowhere, your defense is looking up articles to support your view on google knowing no one has the time to read all your useless information. This is a common stance used by religious zealouts for example, quoting "just read the bible/quran/etc and you'll understand my point of view".

Again, your assumption is that Yaghans used fires for "extra comfort and that's all". You don't know this, you weren't there, yet you give facts as if you were, this is the foundation of all your problems leading to a view of reality which is based on imagined ideas assumed to be facts without ever having given a logical deduction to the idea.

Your logical fallacy in your question "if having fur was so useful why did humans lose it?" is a simple one - you are assuming that we traded fur for fat (or fur for nothing) in order to adapt to a cold environment, when this is backwards, and makes no sense obviously, and is supported by the majority of land animal life out there, you don't even need an article to know that. The logic is sound that fur is cheaper energy-wise (and therefore food-wise) than fat to keep warm. There is no reason to use fat instead, unless you are partly aquatic, since fur isn't a good insulator for vital organs in water.

There's no misunderstanding, there are of course some humans Yaghan derivatives, which are better adapted to cold climates, but there are no humans which are better adapted to cold climates than warm climates (speaking of temperatures only, not sunlight exposure), giving the obvious and unwavering fact that humans in general are better adapted to warm climates(our natural climate is therefore a warm one, even for Yaghans, even though they have been living in a cold one for 10,000 years, which to some puny minded individuals seems like a long time, but it isnt on an evolutionary scale), what the ideal warm climate is remains to be deduced.

36
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 12, 2014, 12:44:48 am »
Tyler your post is full of logical fallacies again,
Neanderthals most likely had fur, it's not nonsense. I didn't compare Neanderthals to chimps, you compared Humans to Neanderthals, I reminded you that slight DNA differences mean dramatic physiological changes (less than 1% goes from human to chimp).

I never said or implied Neanderthals had short or long lifespans, I was talking about their survival (extinction). They went extinct relatively rapidly, from when they came into existence. They didn't last long as a species when compared to other species alive today that have been around much longer than they ever were.

When I stated Neanderthals went extinct because of cold periods, I was using the latest scientific knowledge to support it, it isn't wrong. Your less-likely opinion is based on outdated information, there's no other way to look at it.

The Yaghans didn't just use fire, they used boats and animal grease also, they also were reported by early Europeans to have used "many fires." You keep insinuating they didn't as if you knew, when the only people who know are the people who actually saw and wrote about it, you're not one of those people. The records indicate "many fires", don't downplay something because it goes against what you want to believe.

It isn't likely that Neanderthals died out in a warm climate, as the most recent scientific data suggests. While no data is perfect from "what ifs", we can only go on the data we have. Everything else is absolutely meaningless speculation. If you don't agree, then don't use Neanderthals which we don't have enough data about yet in your opinion to support your flakey claims.

Fur is simply the most energy efficient method to maintain body heat on land for mammals of any significant size, which is why most land-based animals have fur no matter the climate. Subcutaneous body fat, being more expensive even though a great insulator particularly in water, is typically hoarded by aquatic or semiaquatic animal life, since they tend to have more food available to them. You can see this in many land animals that wade in water like the hippo.

In conclusion, your seemingly infinite incorrect assumptions about what I'm saying as well as your logical flaws appear to make it impossible for you to realize the common sense right under your nose. Modern humans natural/optimal habitat is not arctic or subarctic climates or anything close to it, even if we can somewhat adapt to live in those climates (with some technology) in less than 10,000 years like the Yaghans did, our population would dwindle from billions to thousands since there isn't that many cold climate areas with as much easy to find food as the Yaghans had, and their survival depended on their unique circumstances, isolated to a tiny area still with the help of boats, animal grease, fire, and language technology (practical knowledge).

There is no reason for our body to evolve subcutaneous body fat instead of fur to conserve body heat, unless we were partly aquatic. There is no land animal that has subcutaneous body fat that doesn't or didn't have a recent habitat in water or partly in water.
There is no reason for our body to evolve conscious control of our breathing (and therefore ability to speak) unless we were partly aquatic. While there are advantages to this, one person doesn't just evolve conscious breath control on land and have a great advantage (still not speaking) and then carry this genetic change over to the rest of the species. Conscious breath control doesn't directly evolve for purposes of communication, it evolves for water-survival.
Higher metabolisms and higher brown body fat equates to much higher energy needs. Much higher energy needs equates to depending on much higher food supply in any given area. Colder climates, unless accompanied by water-sources, are the world over much less rich in food supplies than warmer climates. It doesn't make any evolutionary sense to evolve higher nutritional demands, while relocating to a less abundant food supply area, unless, like the Yaghans, you are forced out of your natural habitat by enemies or some other force and forced to adapt over thousands of years (which still hasn't been shown that humans even back then could survive without technological aid, despite Tyler's fantasies about it), like modern humans today haven't been and therefore aren't adapted to such climates.

37
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 10, 2014, 09:36:15 pm »
Tayler:
Neanderthals are suggested to have had fur. The only evidence to the contrary is the yaghans which used technology to survive their climate from the start (not having natural evolution free of technology), the neanderthals which used technology were not found to always have used it and evolved fur before their technological advances and have been found to share the fur-grasping traits of their hands with chimpanzees. Neanderthals differing by .12% is still a lot different from a modern human when you realize the difference between humans and some other apes alive today is also less than 1%.  I agree that an animal has niche adaptations and isn't immune to all conditions of an environment all of the time, but the naked modern human body has never been found to be adapted to cold even marginally as well as it's adapted to other climates, even the yaghans would fare better elsewhere. The yaghans haven't had hundreds of thousands of years to develop fur, and have made use of what they can over such short time periods, yet still weren't energetically efficient or thriving or "adapted" in their forced environment. Body fat is a good insulator, especially in water as you can see in marine life, but it is an expensive insulator - it costs a lot more energy to maintain body fat (especially brown fat which generates heat) than it does to maintain body fur. This is why the yaghans depended on technology to sustain that high energy demand. And obviously, yaghans don't represent the majority of modern humans and are useless for figuring out what the natural habitat is/was for the rest of us.

I never claimed neanderthals had a shorter lifespan. I never implied it or discussed anything about lifespan of neanderthals.

About the "study" you posted, the abstract is some scientists suggesting, proposing, and guessing at adaptations of neanderthals, there isn't a shred of evidence in the abstract, and you have not read the actual full source and nor can we.

The link you posted about neanderthals dying out in a warm period is outdated information. You need to look at the dates. Carbon dating has become more accurate since then, and it's known neanderthals went extinct ten thousand years before that article estimates. I would hardly trust something talking about a warm period extinction for neanderthals when the extinction of the neanderthals themselves was off by at least 10,000 years in that article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction

In summary, modern humans are not well-adapted to cold. Even when better adapted, as yaghans are and pretty much no other peoples, the bodies of those humans are still more suited/fare better in warmer climates, whereas true cold-climate adapted animals don't fare better in warmer climates.

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General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 08, 2014, 04:45:20 am »
@eveheart
your post itself is a contradiction to the point you're trying to make
tylerdurden has replied just as many times as I have to the discussion (with much more repetitive "neanderthal and yaghan" themes which don't relate to the vast majority of humanity) we are debating
furthermore you are off topic, you can PM me with these personal issues you have instead of derail an ontopic debate

(posting this here so that everyone can learn from your mistake, otherwise I'd pm you)

39
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 08, 2014, 01:21:06 am »
About Yaghans, being somewhat adapted to cold climates (as everyone is somewhat) does not equal being adapted to cold climates. This is basic logic, even the youngest kindergartner can understand that. I'm somewhat adapted to cold, and somewhat adapted to heat, yet I cannot live in the desert heat without technology, or the arctic wtihout technology, and therefore can't evolve naturally in the desert or arctic without technology. The yaghans can't evolve naturally in their cold climate without technological aid, there is no evidence to say they can, none, no matter how much you want to believe it's possible, they just didn't. Of course, with the aid of technology, humans are able to survive harsh climates and adapt to them, that is not the same as being completely independent of technology to live in those climates as you would be if your body was completely adapted to that climate. These are obvious deductions, why aren't you getting it Tyler?

The complete disregard for logic on Tyler Durdens part makes it impossible to debate anything with him and get anywhere. He is citing abstracts from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ which are nothing more than propositions of an anthropologist, not based on proof or evidence, but guessing or speculating as he is doing.

Furthermore, neanderthals are not modern day humans, they are different, we are talking about modern day humans. Regardless, neanderthals died out because of a cold period, and they had one of the shortest existences of any large primate in terms of years of survival. Hardly a case story for "successful adaptation".

Tyler, your inability to reason is causing you to continually spew nonsense. You need to read quietly on your own, rather than keep posting incorrect information. It is well known that humans can adapt, no one is debating this, feral human children behave like dogs, baby squirrels adopted by cat mothers learn to purr, all animals can adapt. Many people generate more brown fat, muscle, and fat to stay warm in colder areas of the globe, and while this makes it more comfortable/tolerable to live in colder climates, it doesn't allow them to do so without technology, as the first humans to migrate to colder climates had technological understanding to help them - there is no evidence otherwise. Meanwhile, this topic is about modern day humans, not neanderthals, and our natural habitat, not the one the Yaghans have been slowly adapting to but not reached adaptation to yet without technological aid over the past 10,000 years. Use common sense. Re-read it over and over again if you have to.

Furthermore, the early Yaghan people were driven to their inhospitable area due to enemies, yet, they survived, despite great uncomfort. That is not the same as being optimally adapted as a chimpanzee is to a rainforest. A chimpanzee is quite comfortable in its natural habitat - Yaghans aren't, surely you know what adaptation means? Surely you know that a thread talking about a natural/optimal habitat isn't asking under what most severe conditions can a human survive with great discomfort/struggle? Surely you have the ability to grasp that much? You wouldn't have brought up the Yaghans and Neanderthals in the first place unless you were talking about natural/optimal habitats for humans right?

40
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 07, 2014, 01:33:30 am »
as to what colorles contributed, it is obvious humans expanded to colder climates with the aid of technology, but this is a relatively recent change, and not the natural habitat for our bodies, the bulk of our body is still adapted to our past before that change, the climate and conditions we lived in before technology/cold climates.
when you compare the differences between caucasian, asian, etc, you can clearly see the differences - but they are not major in terms of environmental adaptation

our adaptation of paler skin for areas away from exposed areas with intense sunlight is not in itself an indication of cold adaptation - it is an indication of sun(vitamin d etc) adaptation in those areas. there are many such areas which are not cold climates, yet still have little sun. even the rainforest is an example, or a typical less-thick forest with tree cover like on many islands and mainlands. To be clear, colorles is completely wrong about Caucasians being unable to live in exposed areas, as our skin can tan quickly and there is always shade some of the time (sleeping). Furthermore, people did not jump on airplanes and hop over to africa from far away back then, you gradually migrated to some other place like to a more exposed area slowly increasing sunlight exposure.

the reason all of this is important is another matter
one that has to do with even more advanced logic than people here are displaying they are capable of
for example, if we adapted to colder environments on the fast track using technology (shortly followed by cooking, farming, etc), then our digestive system has not had a chance to genetically catch up all the way
meaning the best foods are still ones we adapted to pre-technology, as well as countless other logical deductions you can make from the truth rather than speculations on fantasies

to be completely clear, skin color (or color of hair, eyes, etc) is one of the first genetic adaptations to take place to a new environment as it isnt a complex change (white bunnies, brown bunnies, black bunnies), changing a digestive system's workings is a slower adaptation. even so, skin color has nothing to do with cold/hot climate, and everything to do with sun exposure

41
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 07, 2014, 01:04:01 am »
your ignorant assumption has made you look like a fool, I never claimed we couldn't live healthily in a cold environment when aided by technology.
the topic's title is natural/optimal habitat, I'm talking about the natural part of that topic title, not "healthy living in a cold environment with technology" as you are, please stay on topic you're filling this thread with irrelevant posts. read more slowly if you're so confused and stop applying your own little viewpoint to my words.

42
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 06, 2014, 11:54:47 pm »
tyler:
yaghans used:
some minimal clothing to shelter from the elements
rock formations to shelter from the elements
boats to shelter from the elements
fires to generate heat
animal grease to shelter from the elements
defecation position as resting position to reduce surface area to keep warm

if you think this is evident of our bodies natural ability to survive in that climate, you really are as lost as I thought. on the contrary, incidentally, that is all evidence that our naked bodies, even when adapted over a lifespan to build more brown fat (which generates more heat) and have higher metabolisms, is unable without technological aid to survive in that climate. incidentally, you are completely incorrect, still, after all of these posts.

incidentally, it would be nice to know how you propose they "hunted" or got food in any way since we know they at least had knowledge of using rocks, boats, fire, clothes, and animal grease. are you proposing they "hunted" (or fished, or maneuvered) in this climate without those aids? or are you merely using them as an incorrect example to support your ridiculous position?

it is known that humans can adapt to cold and survive in cold weather, just as many other animals can adapt and survive in climates/habitats other than their natural climate/habitat, that doesn't mean that without help, luck, or severe struggle, that we are genetically adapted to that environment! seriously wake up

43
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 06, 2014, 05:47:40 am »
You can disagree with the definition of technology as much as you want, but communicating with other people isn't going to work, as evidenced by posters confusion of your contradictory post (unless we knew beforehand that you have an incorrect definition/meaning of technology), until you accept the actual meaning of the word technology rather than your incorrect version.

The debate here is what is our natural habitat that we evolved in - without technology (or tools), Tyler Durden was incorrectly proposing that our natural naked habitat could extend to cold climates, when it's not even valid as a hypothesis because it's so ridiculous. I postulated that our natural habitat could've been semi-aquatic (coexisting with bodies of water and frequently making use of them), which by itself is not invalid based on ridiculousness, as there is nothing (like death from too-cold temperatures) which invalidates it. My problem was that this topic was taking the direction of ignoring physical evidence (such as our skin, relative lack of thick hair, and ability to sweat to rapidly cool) and proposing contrary ideas which completely lack physical evidence. We might as well just go back to being mayans if we're going to completely ignore logic like that.

44
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 05, 2014, 10:57:52 pm »
Some people really have no idea what a cold climate is like... sigh
here's how we deal with too-cold temperatures: hypothermia/focus bloodflow on vital organs and get frostbite (conserve and spend tons of energy)

here's how we deal with too much heat: sweating (relatively painless, only need to eat minimal energy and some water which is usually abundant in areas with fruit)

even if you have no idea what a cold climate is like, just looking at the facts should make it obvious to you we are not adapted for colder climates, but more on the warm side, despite having some resilience to temporary cold

45
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 05, 2014, 08:12:41 am »
um no, inuit tribes / american indians in cold climates use technology, we are talking about natural habitats here, without technology, pure naked human skin against the elements. we are also assuming that these humans didn't try to survive in colder climates than was comfortable for them, because why would they? wild animals simply don't migrate to colder climates than they would prefer to start making/raising young (without genetic adaptations) yet you can compare the northern human evolution to the equatorial human evolution and the only dramatic difference is skin color, which makes sense given the sun changes, but there is no evolutionary difference which shows cold adaptations.

what people did after technology is a completely different story as we had/have all kinds of stupid ideas like chopping human heads off for sacrifice to the gods or talking about theories that naked apes natural habitat is a cold climate when it goes against all reasoning that many children and all reasonable people who aren't deluded by gods, fairytales, and the validity of their own abstract daydreams can see.

in short, the argument is what is the natural habitat for humans, how did it get so far off base from choosing between warm climates? because there are people who have been staring at a computer screen, the walls of their heated home, draped in clothing, totally oblivious to what a cold climate feels like on a naked body 24 hours in a row, day and night, that's how. It simply can't be done over a span of 10,000 years with our current bodies. We are talking about thriving here, animals don't last as long as we have by "barely hanging on by a thread" in climates that constantly torment them (they evolve dramatic genetic changes if they are forced with extended stays).

46
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 05, 2014, 07:56:10 am »
thank you for that unrelated and abstract polar bear reference which doesn't have anything to do with humans, lol.

fact: human babies naturally hold their breath underwater, an evolutionary adaptation due to human babies being in water
fact: human babies will die in cold climates when they go for a swim and/or emerge drenched in water
obvious conclusion: naked babies don't keep behaviors having to do with swimming when they're living in a cold climate
obvious conclusion: your theory is shown to be completely bogus, without having to rely on polar bear references

ignoring infants, your theory is still invalid however, as young children are not going to huddle up all day in a burrow to survive and stay warm, and evolve that way over tens of thousands of years. you clearly know nothing about the behavior of these nearly naked (no armpit hair, genital hair, and very little body hair) young children which in nature run around and walk around to stay healthy, rather than huddle up in a shelter for 3/4 or 1/2 the year.

the fact that you cannot see that virtually all great apes have trouble with cold climates without technology is the underlying fundamental foolish ignorant belief on your part, you need to open your mind to other ideas rather than keep listening to your own delusions

47
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 04, 2014, 05:36:05 am »
Tyler I'm curious, when you talk about humans being adapted to cold, do you envision newborns, or in your perverted mind is the human race populated only with healthy adults that might be able to last a trivial time in high wind cold weather without clothes/technology?

48
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: October 04, 2014, 02:30:48 am »
Tylerdurden: We are are one of the most naked land mammals that doesn't live underground, yet your idiotic theory is that we are better adapted to cold weather than many animals which actually have furs. There is no reasoning with such a moronic view. It is one thing to stand outside in snow in still air, and a whole other thing to get blasted by wind chill, among countless other common sense facts against your delirious theory. Our sweating mechanism gives us one of the most rapid cooling mechanisms of all mammals our size when out in the heat, but yeah, we totally evolved in cold climates. Many people here don't have research under their belt so I can't label them idiotic, just ignorant, but you're actually an idiot - unable to reason despite reading a lot.

49
General Discussion / Re: Humans Natural/Optimal Habitat
« on: September 18, 2014, 07:22:38 pm »
So, using the least common denominator here and logical deduction, who else believes that we were relatively naked scavengers in very cold climates, and adapted to that lifestyle over hundreds of thousands of years without developing a much thicker coat of fur, being one of the naked above-ground mammals with subcutaneous fat (attached to our skin) like seals and other aquatic/semiaquatic life? Sometimes the idiocy of self-appointed know-it-alls on the internet is exhausting.

We all know that nature, like a river, goes against the simplest path. Why would a river flow down the easiest path of a landscape and why would a human develop thick fur to conserve energy in a cold environment when we can expand nostrils and increase metabolism like no-other-animal-on-the-planet-ever-did without developing thick fur as well?

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If you fast on grass fed raw milk assuming it's fresh, it's fine in moderation, and if it's even processed a little it won't hurt you nearly as bad as many other foods out there, such as heavily processed foods or grains, after all it's a raw animal food, but it's still not balanced nutritionally at all, and there are far better animal foods, like raw beef, or for hydration - raw fruit juice, which are better at their specific roles.

People can be cured of "incurable" diseases just by fasting, breathing correctly, etc. It's simply doing something better than you were before. For example, if when people go up in spaceships, they suddenly became healthier, a logical person doesn't assume that outerspace is healing, but rather that their lifestyle radically changed.

So, when you fast on nothing but raw milk, the major change here is that you aren't eating all of the worse foods you were before, not that raw milk is balanced or magically healing in any way.

Of course, to simple minded common folk, the idea that people are cured while fasting on raw milk or using pyramid crystals is undeniable proof that those diets or methods are absolutely correct. These people need to read books on logic and deduction, rather than debate with other humans.

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