Author Topic: How to fertilize the soil  (Read 9367 times)

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Offline Alive

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How to fertilize the soil
« on: October 29, 2012, 12:53:51 pm »
Let's get this straight. All this Brix issue is, I believe, a question of making the soil nutritious enough for a plant, so that adding manure and adding minerals in the form of powders and mixing it all up with the topsoil around the plants once a year or so should do the trick?  I am currently planning on adding a number of fruit-trees to a particular garden because such trees can go for long periods without watering and I can't be there very often. With the ones I've already planted, I've used some sort of  high-tech nutrient-rich substance provided by the shop and watered extensively, but that's all so far. Since the soil is likely pretty bad(the garden is terraced all over, after all), I think I could do better. Can one buy powdered minerals like sodium or whatever from gardening centres?

@ TylerDurden, some suggestions for your fruit trees = bury road kill close by (with dirt separation from the roots to allow decomposition), or even better since you are a RAFist how about saving up your poo in buckets - that would be absolute perfection to provide the most awesome long lasting full spectrum fertiliser for your fruit trees, and is recycling at its best : )
Just cover your daily deposits with some dirt and sawdust to reduce odours, or even get buckets with lids, until you can transport to your orchard = your trees will love you for it!

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 01:10:13 pm »
Let's get this straight. All this Brix issue is, I believe, a question of making the soil nutritious enough for a plant, so that adding manure and adding minerals in the form of powders and mixing it all up with the topsoil around the plants once a year or so should do the trick?  I am currently planning on adding a number of fruit-trees to a particular garden because such trees can go for long periods without watering and I can't be there very often. With the ones I've already planted, I've used some sort of  high-tech nutrient-rich substance provided by the shop and watered extensively, but that's all so far. Since the soil is likely pretty bad(the garden is terraced all over, after all), I think I could do better. Can one buy powdered minerals like sodium or whatever from gardening centres?

If you really want to feed the soil, seaweeds, worm castings, and calcium (from dolomite, seashells, etc.) are the way to go.

In addition, I hear good things about terra preta, although I've never used it.

It gets expensive to improve very poor soil. but it's worth it.

Generally, even if the soil itself is very poor, you can foliar-feed the plant by spraying a dilute nutrient solution directly on the leaves.  This can be difficult with a tall tree, though.

There are a couple of Yahoo Brix groups that are pretty good for this stuff.  They are overrun with raw vegans, but, if you can withstand the vegan trolling, they are useful.  I actually got banned by a vegan moderator for an anti-vegan comment I made in an email to him, once.  Prepare for the propaganda. 

Also, just read Rex Harrill's site at http://crossroads.ws/

it has a lot of good info.

Offline Iguana

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 03:16:26 pm »
Put as much organic matter as you can find, such as mulch, leaves, food leftovers and rotten fruits. I make a large hole about 10 -12  inches deep (but deeper where I'll plant a tree) and put such stuff inside. When it's full, I cover it with earth taken from the next hole I dig beside. I put the mulch on the surface and bit by bit the whole place gets fertilized that way. 

Since we ate cooked food for decades, we'd better not to use our dejections as aLive suggests because it's loaded with noxious molecules we're still rejecting. Those abnormal molecules will eventually find their way into the plants we're bound to eat... 

See Pottenger's experiments with cats. 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 03:24:51 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2012, 04:54:12 pm »
The trees might love my faeces but I would not go anywhere near the fruit of such trees!   

I think Iguana's idea is quickest re use of  leaves and rotting fruit. CK's notion re worm castings sounds like I'd have to go to a pet-shop. Without a car, that's a problem. I have vast sources of raw seaweed available  but I've been told that I would need to thoroughly  douse it in water numerous times in order to get rid of the salt-content.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 05:19:58 am »
Tyler - in terms of the soil for your trees I'm concerned about the stuff that you put down already. One of the most important things about healthy soil is the microbial life. Without balanced microbes it won't matter how much mineral supplementation you use because it is the microbes that transform it into a usable form for the plants. It is more important to feed the microbes than to feed the tree and if you use high tech stuff - you usually end up killing off the microbes and making the tree addicted to constant fertilization from the high tech stuff. The way to think about gardening is to think about making a good attractive home for the microbes and for the worms which just builds upon itself over time getting better and better with less and less effort. Bring microbes and worms and the trees will be healthiest and their fruit more nutritious. In order to know what to supplement with, you need to know what's already there, what is bio-available and what the trees you put in need in terms of ph, minerals etc. to do their best. Testing the soil before planting, unless you already know the general makeup of the area like I do here, is usually the best place to start. But NONE of that matters if you don't care for the microbes. Most fertilizers kill microbes. That's the beauty of organics. Even if you go wrong somewhat, you don't go off the deep end wrong by killing out the soil life.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 05:43:10 am »
Yes, I see. In future, I will always use rotting fruit, seaweed(minus the salt-content) and leaves for fertiliser, as they are the easiest to obtain.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 06:16:00 am »
Well, it's also not quite as easy as that. You see, when fruit etc. are decomposing they will steal the nitrogen from the soil so the plant might not have enough nitrogen if you dump fruit and other uncomposted materials on it. You can kill a plant by putting enough uncomposted materials on the soil.  It is best to put already composted materials as a wide top dressing. There is a proper mixture that makes the best compost - usually. Different kinds of trees/plants of course will need different kinds of compost. There is another aspect that must be taken into consideration - if you mulch around the tree (like with leaves) it will keep the soil more moist and attract more worms and help to keep the microbes alive - so putting mulch around the tree (but not up against the trunk) is a good idea. To feed, what is usually done is that the mulch is pushed back, the compost put down, and the mulch put back on top of the compost. In most areas the small feeder roots are concentrated at the furthest expanse of the roots, which extend to the outside reaches of the canopy. Here with so much clay and rock though our trees stay shorter and the roots can expand to twice the canopy - but that is the exception - not the rule. You don't want to feed a tree just at the trunk is what I'm getting at here. You want to feed it out to the edges of it's canopy - with well-composted material - with a layer of leaves/bark on top of that for mulch.

The best thing to add to the soil to feed the microbes, believe it or not, is molasses. I mix worm leachate, liquified seaweed and molasses to keep my vegetable garden producing even through the brutal summers. Seaweed makes plants better able to withstand drought.

But one thing you must figure out is the ph of the soil and plant only trees that can do well in that ph. It's just too hard to fight the general ph of the soil when talking about a tree.  It's do-able. I have a little tree and some berry bushes that needs an acid soil when I have extremely alkaline soil - but I go to Starbucks and get their leftover coffee grinds to make their soil more acidic (LOTS and LOTS of coffee grounds) - but those plants still don't really flourish.


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 03:58:29 pm »
Thanks. What do I have to buy/use to test soil acidity/alkalinity?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 11:06:56 pm »
I'm not familiar with what would be available to you in your country Tyler. Here, we can bring in soil to the agricultural extension units to be tested or buy a tester at any nursery or order on-line. A quick internet search would give you more information. The testing could be just ph or test other things as well - so it's up to you. You can test your soil very cheaply with a kit.

But here's at least an entertaining video with a more "paleo" way of going about it: :D

Testing Soil pH the Old Fashioned Way

Offline jessica

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 11:52:37 am »
dorothy these guys need a link to that compost thing from permies, help me find it???!!
soil is SO amazingly complicated when we are going from unhealthy soil to healthy soil...its very much like the human body in that there is no perfect formula and depending on what you are starting out with and what you are planting there are a multitude of different considerations and amendments to be made.  its also very much like the human body in that, yes good soil requires nutrition( leaf matter, decomposing bushes or trees, food wastes, manure) as well as proper amounts of oxygen and water,  dirt and minerals, fungi and all other types of biological life including microbes, nematodes, worms..etcetc.....its very fascinating


Offline Dorothy

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 11:48:43 pm »
So True Jessica!

I was on the black soldier fly composting forum with my project of taking all the compost from a thriving Mexican restaurant - sweating out with them what kind of bacteria would be ok and if the soil amendment would then be ok to grow organic foods in. Then some wise person said to me that good soil is more microbially dense than any human being. If you take the idea that the good bacteria will fight the bad then basically healthy soil being fed all that good stuff from the black soldier flies would make the "immune system" of the soil very strong and I would have nothing to worry about. 

The richer and more complex the soil, the safer the food source and the richer and more complex the nutrients available to the plants - BUT - exactly like you said Jessica - if you try to grow a plant that doesn't like lots of nutrients or rich soil in it - it will die. There are many plants that flourish here on rocks with almost no nutrients. Some of them you plant into really rich soil with lots of worms and they die quickly and some take off like monsters. It's all about matching the plant to it's proper environment and tweeking that particular environment so that it is even better for the plant if possible.

Examples:
I never give my blueberries in their pot any manure - they hate the stuff. They however love coffee grounds and peat moss. Cactuses and succulents will quickly die if the soil is too rich and too moist - but there is are certain things when added to the sand that will make them grow like crazy. The bananas want piles and piles and piles of compost and mulch to even survive at all here.

Generally though the native plants and trees here because of the intense limestone will generally appreciate a little compost. Most places do seem to be like that I have lived in. I think you would agree with that right Jessica? At least a little compost is usually appreciated by most plants everywhere as a rule of thumb.

Jessica - what compost thing are you referring to? More description please.

I was thinking that for Tyler living in a city he might really appreciate the indoor electrical system that he can keep inside a cabinet in his kitchen and get good compost quickly out of it. The trick with the material you are saving to compost to make it not smell or attract flies is to collect it in a jar in the REFRIGERATOR! Works like a charm to keep the stuff good until you are ready for when your composter is ready for more.

That electric composter is a choice or a red wiggler worm composter would be another choice - and then becomes even a food source for you if you choose. I used to have one in a busy photography studio. I say that because most people think they will smell. They don't. People would come in and say that our kitchen smelled like a forest and they LOVED it. I have a worm composter that easily allows the worms to move from one section to another for very easy use - no sifting worms.

If you are interested in indoor composting like that Tyler I will find some links for you. There really is close to nothing as satisfying as turning garbage into a valuable resource.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 11:54:06 pm by Dorothy »

Offline Alive

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2012, 03:55:53 am »
Since we ate cooked food for decades, we'd better not to use our dejections as aLive suggests because it's loaded with noxious molecules we're still rejecting. Those abnormal molecules will eventually find their way into the plants we're bound to eat... 

See Pottenger's experiments with cats.

Iguana, while I agree with your efforts to consume only 'normal' molecules for your health, I have some reservations about aspects of the instincto theory and your advice to raw paleos not to fertilize the soil with their own excrement...

Lets start with whether the creation of heated molecules is actually abnormal in nature - there are many geothermal features on the planet that naturally cook living matter, such as underwater hydro-thermal vents, volcanoes, geysers, boiling mud etc. It is believed that billions of years ago that inside the earth was hotter than now and that there were very many more of these features. Next we have lightning strikes and forest fires, which naturally cook animal and plant matter. I believe that over billions of years microbes will have evolved that can digest these heated molecules and therefore decontaminate them.

Then there is the instincto analogy of a maze of rooms with locked doors and keys to represent our metobolic pathways. However in living things the walls are not always solid, and if a cell wants to, and has the energy to do so, it could create a pile of garbage in one corner and then reconstruct the wall so the garbage was on the outside of the cell. So while it is best for all molecules to be able to go through the 'locked doors' there are other paths that can be created. An example of this is when I was on a raw vegan diet and had a live blood analysis (looking at living blood under a microscopic) the we could see white blood cells carry around crystals that were so big they stuck out the side of the cell. The only chemical exposure I can think of that could be the cause of this is THC from pot smoking, which is fat soluble and would have been release from fat cells by the raw vegan diet.

Seafood in Europe would have been exposed to the abnormal molecules from the sewage of hundreds of millions of people eating mostly cooked foods - so if abnormal molecules are so long lived in the environment as you propose it seems that there will be a lot of these molecules in seafood.

The Chinese have been fertilizing their gardens with their cooked food excrement for thousands of years and we cannot see evidence that this has caused them harm, so therefore a raw foodists excrement should be thousands of times better for the soil due to the low levels of abnormal molecules and the high levels of beneficial bacteria.

Another anomaly in your advice is highlighted by my hens - they are fed a diet with a significant quantity of cooked food scraps from my family left overs. The advice from other RPD is for me to eat these eggs, but from your point of view their eggs will have large quantities of 'abnormal' molecules, which will be much higher than the levels of abnormal molecules found in my own excrement while on a raw paleo diet.

So therefore I reject your advice to normal raw paleo diet practitioners to not use their own excrement as a garden fertilizer.  :)
 

Offline Iguana

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2012, 03:46:25 pm »
Iguana, while I agree with your efforts to consume only 'normal' molecules for your health, I have some reservations about aspects of the instincto theory and your advice to raw paleos not to fertilize the soil with their own excrement...

Lets start with whether the creation of heated molecules is actually abnormal in nature - there are many geothermal features on the planet that naturally cook living matter, such as underwater hydro-thermal vents, volcanoes, geysers, boiling mud etc. It is believed that billions of years ago that inside the earth was hotter than now and that there were very many more of these features. Next we have lightning strikes and forest fires, which naturally cook animal and plant matter. I believe that over billions of years microbes will have evolved that can digest these heated molecules and therefore decontaminate them.
Yes, of course the abnormal molecules produced by heat are finally bio-degraded. The question I found no answer is “how long does it take?” I guess it depend. We can have a clue by comparing the taste of “organic”plant foods grown on excrement of animals (or/and of humans) eating cooked junk with the taste of the same foodstuff grown on chemical fertilizers, and also with the same ones grown with manure of raw fed animals. And the results are often not what you would expect, the first ones having the worst taste. Some even say they feel bad when eating “organic”  while they feel much better with food grown with chemical fertilizers. It’s supposed because many “organic" farmers use a lot of heating techniques.

Yes again, there have always been underwater hydro-thermal vents, volcanoes, geysers, boiling mud, lightning strikes and forest fires. Sometimes a foodstuff may also have been heated over 40°C on a rock fully exposed in the sun. But this doesn’t happen everyday and everywhere. Nevertheless, animals and our pre-fire ancestors have unavoidably eaten a heated food now and then and that’s precisely why we have detoxination programs ready to be used. These are adapted to small occasional amounts, but they tend to runaway out of control with the large incessant amounts brought by cooked standard nutrition.     

Quote
Seafood in Europe would have been exposed to the abnormal molecules from the sewage of hundreds of millions of people eating mostly cooked foods - so if abnormal molecules are so long lived in the environment as you propose it seems that there will be a lot of these molecules in seafood.
I don’t think most are very long lived, they must be slowly bio-degrading but we have no data about it, only guesses. Seas and Oceans are so huge that the dilution is overwhelming, but it’s not the case of rivers and lakes and that’s why we don’t eat fish from soft waters. They have a lot of parasites. Anyway, it’s clear that there’s no way to totally avoid pollution, either from almost non degradable chemicals and plastics or certainly more degradable organic molecules produced by heat.   

Quote
The Chinese have been fertilizing their gardens with their cooked food excrement for thousands of years and we cannot see evidence that this has caused them harm, so therefore a raw foodists excrement should be thousands of times better for the soil due to the low levels of abnormal molecules and the high levels of beneficial bacteria.
They have also been eating cooked food for thousands of years. Are there any evidence that this has caused them harm? If eating cooked food, then eating such food grown with their own excrement  is not very much more of a problem — except from parasites if a part is eaten raw.   

Quote
Another anomaly in your advice is highlighted by my hens - they are fed a diet with a significant quantity of cooked food scraps from my family left overs. The advice from other RPD is for me to eat these eggs, but from your point of view their eggs will have large quantities of 'abnormal' molecules, which will be much higher than the levels of abnormal molecules found in my own excrement while on a raw paleo diet.
Much higher? Why? No, I don’t see it that way.

Quote
So therefore I reject your advice to normal raw paleo diet practitioners to not use their own excrement as a garden fertilizer.  :)
You’re absolutely free to reject my advice since you experiment at your own risk!  ;)
Quote
http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggraw_eat4.html
In fact, I was telling you about those cats because they enabled Pottenger and his teammates to take note of something, quite by chance, that directly pertains to our concern_that is, once everything was finished, the grounds where the animals had lived were turned into a market garden to supply food for the dining hall. But, there were complaints. From the spots where the soil had got manure from droppings of cats that had eaten cooked food, the peas had an aftertaste of cat ordure, whereas, in the other parts of the garden, they tasted perfectly good.
That can be accounted for if one is prepared to admit that some molecules adulterated from cooked meat had been passed on into the excrement of those animals without having been broken down properly, then from the earth they were taken up by the plants without having been broken down any further.

Some other texts about it found by Google, for further info.
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil#Sanitation_issues
The use of human feces as fertilizer is a risky practice as it may contain disease-causing pathogens. Nevertheless, in developing nations it is widespread. Common parasitic worm infections, such as ascariasis, in these countries are linked to night soil, since their eggs are in feces. There have also been cases of disease-carrying tomatoes, lettuce, and other vegetables being imported from developing nations into developed nations.[citation needed]

Human waste may be attractive as fertilizer because of the high demand for fertilizer and the relative availability of the material to create night soil. In areas where native soil is of poor quality, the local population may weigh the risk of using night soil.

The safe reduction of human waste into compost is possible. Many municipalities create compost from the sewage system biosolids, but then recommend that it only be used on flower beds, not vegetable gardens. Some claims have been made that this is dangerous or inappropriate without the expensive removal of heavy metals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9463654
The use of human faeces for fertilizer is associated with increased intensity of hookworm infection in Vietnamese women.
Humphries DL, Stephenson LS, Pearce EJ, The PH, Dan HT, Khanh LT.
Division of Nutritional Sciences, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA.
Abstract

To investigate different factors associated with hookworm infections we conducted 2 studies in a commune in northern Viet Nam. The first was part of a larger study on anaemia and covered 213 women (15-49 years of age) and their 92 children (6 months to 5 years of age) in one commune; 90% of the families reported using human faeces for fertilizer. Women who reported using fresh human faeces as fertilizer had significantly higher hookworm egg counts than women who either used treated human faeces or who did not use human faeces as fertilizer. The second study examined how human faeces were used for fertilizer in 30 selected families. Women participated in preparation and application of human faeces to crops in 81% of the families using human faeces for fertilizer. Two methods of preparing the faeces were described: 48% of the families mixed the faeces with ash before applying them to the field; 18% mixed the faeces with water; 33% used both methods.

In most cases, the excrement is used on cereal or grain crops, which are eventually cooked, minimizing the risk of transmitting water-borne pathogens and diseases, IWMI's Drechsel noted.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/08/080821-human-waste.html
Human Waste Used by 200 Million Farmers, Study Says
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 04:02:41 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2012, 04:06:14 pm »
The argument that the Chinese haven't been harmed by millenia of cooking is throughly dubious. I wouldn't be surprised if the shorter stature of Orientals was partly due to millenia of eating grains like rice. It is noteworthy that Oriental immigrants to the US are getting slightly taller, for example.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2012, 04:32:36 pm »
Do imply that I mean that? It's not at all what I wanted to say: I meant that since they eat cook food, they may as well eat foods grown with their own excrement without it adding much more harm. If you are in a deep fog, a little more added fog won't cause much difference.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Alive

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2012, 04:47:25 pm »
@Iguana,
Regarding the hens, my thinking is that if they eat 10% of their diet as cooked food then there is a significant source of these abnormal molecules to be made into the eggs, on the other hand if a RPD person ate no cooked food then their excrement could only have abnormal molecules that had previously been stored in their body, which I assumed would be a less amount (as you say no data available)

Regarding Pottengers cats, you are providing an account of the excrement of animals fed a cooked diet being harmful to the soil, while I am suggesting the excrement of RPD people eating a raw diet is beneficial to the soil, so these two opinions agree.

Regarding Wikipedia on the dangers of night soils, these will be from people eating mostly cooked foods and even worse cooked grains, so its obvious that the results are going to be toxic. Since you are following Wikipedias advice I think you need to start cooking your food:
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_meat The risk of disease from ingesting pathogens found in raw meat is significantly higher than cooked meat, although both can be contaminated. Meat can be incorrectly or insufficiently cooked, allowing disease-carrying pathogens to be ingested.
  ;)

Offline Iguana

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2012, 06:14:53 pm »
Regarding Pottengers cats, you are providing an account of the excrement of animals fed a cooked diet being harmful to the soil, while I am suggesting the excrement of RPD people eating a raw diet is beneficial to the soil, so these two opinions agree.
Sure, but as I tried to show with the example of the plastic can in this post http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/can-we-do-without-vegetablesgreens/msg101244/#msg101244, it takes a lot of time till our excrement are clear of abnormal molecules. Check their smell and compare it with the smell of a wild animal's ones…!
 
Quote
Regarding Wikipedia on the dangers of night soils, these will be from people eating mostly cooked foods and even worse cooked grains, so its obvious that the results are going to be toxic. Since you are following Wikipedias advice I think you need to start cooking your food:   ;)
Good advice, thanks! Sorry, I don’t follow Wikipedia’s advices, just put it for info, heh!. Apparently it’s not more toxic for them than cooked food, except for parasites. The experience shows that we are not immune to parasites either if we eat meat from junk fed (or having access to junk) animals. The guy "Zephir" in Hawaii almost died of trichinosis after eating the raw liver of a mongoose he probably caught when it tried to come out of a garbage can.  :o

I never had any parasites problems in 26 years, but I care about the source of my meat.

 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 02:07:39 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Alive

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2012, 01:41:53 am »
Hi Iguana,
I have done one experiment where I pooed in a pot of soil while on cooked food and the deposit got covered in fungus and did not break down, versus while on raw food it quickly became part of the soil without any smell.

To be honest at the moment I hate gardening and buy all my food from the shop, and out of habit I just use the toilet. But this discussion has got me interested in fertilising our fruit trees this natural way.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2012, 10:54:28 pm »
The argument that the Chinese haven't been harmed by millenia of cooking is throughly dubious. I wouldn't be surprised if the shorter stature of Orientals was partly due to millenia of eating grains like rice. It is noteworthy that Oriental immigrants to the US are getting slightly taller, for example.

Actually, the second-generation Chinese in the US are nearly a foot taller than their parents, on average. Of course, their parents often have better jaw formation, cheekbone formation, and less crooked teeth.  I think you're right, that the grains cause health problems, but I really think it's the lack of animal products in the Chinese diet that keeps them so short.

Interestingly, short people tend to be longer-lived than taller people. This is completely irrelevant to the discussion, however.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2012, 10:56:28 pm »
The guy "Zephir" in Hawaii almost died of trichinosis after eating the raw liver of a mongoose he probably caught when it tried to come out of a garbage can.  :o

So THAT'S what happened.  I had always wondered.  That makes sense, if the animal was living near humans, that it was eating human cooked/processed foods, and it would really be not much different than simply eating factory-farmed meat...except that at least clean factory-farmed meat has been kept free of parasites, generally.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 01:10:00 am by TylerDurden »

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Re: How to fertilize the soil
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2012, 07:30:37 am »
Sure, CK!

Hi Iguana,
I have done one experiment where I pooed in a pot of soil while on cooked food and the deposit got covered in fungus and did not break down, versus while on raw food it quickly became part of the soil without any smell.

Very interesting. It seems to mean that at least the bulk of those, when eating raw, is fine. But there remains certainly a tiny fraction of abnormal molecules, especially when we are detoxing — which happen seemingly by waves.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

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