Dangers of RZC article

[TylerDurden]

Here is the link:-  http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1032

It is a bit controversial and I am sure does not fit in with many RZCs' experiences. I just thought it might explain why some fail and some thrive on RZC. Perhaps successful RZCers are somehow better able to generate glucose from animal foods than someone like myself?

[ForTheHunt]

Very interesting.

[michaelwh]

I find this article puzzling. It says that the major glucose-consuming parts of the body are:
brain, nerves, immune system, gut.

But it doesn't say anything at all about muscles, when used during anaerobic exercise.

It is known that the body can adapt to ZC, where most tissues, including the brain, get the majority of their energy from fat and ketones. The only exceptions, if I recall correctly, are some cells in the brain/eyes, some cells in the kidneys, and muscles when used anaerobically. For these, glucose must come from protein gluconeogenesis.

Based on my experience with zero-carbing, I would say that muscles, when used during anaerobic exercise, are by far the highest glucose-consuming tissue. When I'm sedentary on zero-carb, I can easily live on 2lbs of meat per day. But if I do lots of anaerobic exercise, I develop the appetite of a wolf, and can easily eat 5lbs of meat per day. Aerobic exercise doesn't have this effect.

As to why some ZCers get health problems -- there are lots of wrong ways to do ZC: low-quality meat, not enough organs, not enough fat, too much cooking, etc. And it doesn't help that a certain forum *cough*ZIOH*cough* advocates a bad approach. But I'm not saying that everyone who runs into problems did something wrong. It's certainly possible that some unique health issues can prevent success on ZC.

ZC has been studied in a clinical setting (Stefansson and Anderson, who knew what they were doing), and they did not develop any deficiency diseases. Also Phinney studied athletic performance on low-carb.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that carnivores generally have smaller livers than herbivores, because they don't need to detoxify all sorts of plant toxins and antinutrients. The liver has many functions other than glucose production from protein.

[goodsamaritan]

We could take an informal survey like:

Is your daily work: MENTAL? or PHYSICAL?
Are you on ZC, VLC, LC, High Everything?

Article says brain consumes much carbs.
So it's more likely brain workers need more carbs?

[Nation]

The topic of this thread is misleading, the article doesn't say anything about "dangers of RZC".

The article is terrible, his sole argument is that our liver is small and brain is big, therefore we need to eat glucose.

[sabertooth]

I am low/Z carb for 10 months and seem to take to it like a fish to water, I certainly hope there isn't any down side I may experience long term. From where I was healthywise ; those who experience some of those bad effects are still much better off than I was pre paleo.

Perhaps people do have different capacities? I was pre diabetic, so raw Zc seemed the only road for me. I could eat a low glycemic dinner with less than 30 carbs and go to bed with a BG of 110 and wake up 130, after fasting for 12 hours, So I assume my liver made excess glucose{possibly because of some type of  damage, it always felt conjested and bloated)

Now that I have been Zc my blood sugar rarely goes out of the 80s and I actually drop to the mid 70s , I try to drink lemon water and get some carbs from coconut butter, but am still afraid to experiment leaving the Zc ketogenic zone, because of my past pancreatic issues. I would like to give ZC at Least two years in order for my glands to rejuvenate more completely, before adding more carbs(unless I develop any issues of carb deficiency)

My main issue now is fat deficiency, If I don't get enough fat(about 70% of my total calories, my blood sugars will drop along with my energy(I begin to feel mild rabbit starvation)

[sabertooth]

Is your daily work: MENTAL? or PHYSICAL?
Are you on ZC, VLC, LC, High Everything?

Article says brain consumes much carbs.
So it's more likely brain workers need more carbs?

My work is physical as well as mental, being an electrician I have to be strong nimble as well as crafty, and I think fat is a more suitable working mans than carbs. I would always have dips in energy and feel sluggish if I eat carb rich foods , but fat allows me to work non stop without any sluggishness or dip in mental acuity.

High meat seems to be a catalyst in maximizing energy especially on low carb and I use it every other morning.

Off topic observation!

Allot of big old working men I know eat fried foods and do well on high everything(carbs fats protein), Hard work can offest a lot of the negative effects of bad food. They seem to be burning the candle at both ends and they wont live to be 80, but some poor working folks just don't care to much about maintaining optimal health and when their backs go out in their fifties they blame it on work related strain and not the degenerative effects of poor diets.

Allot of brainiacts I know, overthink everything and get into whole grains and 'good wholesome' sad foods with limited fat. They eat soy and are even in worse shape than the working men(generally speaking). Low fat really makes them age faster and makes them more prone to mental degeneration , especially because  their hard working minds are desperate for essential fatty acids for fuel and when they don't have the raw matterial their brains will have to burn less than optimal fuel., which leads to damage and degeneration. Genius in itself is a very volatile phenomenon and without the proper nutrition many of the brightest minds are destroyed by the madness of nutritional imbalance.

[TylerDurden]

IFrom where I was healthywise ; those who experience some of those bad effects are still much better off than I was pre paleo.

I doubt it as my own experiences on RZC were pretty severe.

I have a thought, perhaps those who do well on RZC are those who had some diabetes-related issues before going RZC? At least several of the successful RZCers have mentioned such daibetic symptoms.

[michaelwh]

We could take an informal survey like:

Is your daily work: MENTAL? or PHYSICAL?
Are you on ZC, VLC, LC, High Everything?

Article says brain consumes much carbs.
So it's more likely brain workers need more carbs?

In my experience, "brain work" doesn't require much additional carbs. I'm a student, and if I'm studying very intensely, or working on a very hard problem, my appetite doesn't go up at all. The only thing that increases my appetite is anaerobic exercise.

[Ioanna]

I have a thought, perhaps those who do well on RZC are those who had some diabetes-related issues before going RZC? At least several of the successful RZCers have mentioned such daibetic symptoms.

no diabetes here.

zc or not my energy is just where it always is.  i do not have any kind of adaptation or symptoms of adaptation to zc.  i just eat and i'm fine.  

i have not found yet a plant food that does not give me a stomach ache, or else i would eat it  i say stomach ache, but it hurts so bad i want to shut down for a couple days. i can't live like that.

so if i have to eat carbs i really don't know what i could eat??  scallops are fine, oysters are fine, and organs so far all fine.. i guess that's where i'd have to get carbs from??  eggs are okay, they just make everything go through me a lot faster, but that's not much carbs anyway.  

[Ioanna]

In my experience, "brain work" doesn't require much additional carbs. I'm a student, and if I'm studying very intensely, or working on a very hard problem, my appetite doesn't go up at all. The only thing that increases my appetite is anaerobic exercise.

carbs for "brain work" makes me lol... i mean, brain work requires so few calories compared to the physical.  besides, we're all using our brains!.. whether we're bill gates or michael jordan. 

[Hannibal]

brain work requires so few calories compared to the physical.

Human brain requires relatively the most calories in comparison with the other animals.
It's about 20-25% of  total calories, so it's quite a lot.
Based on standard 2400 calories per day diet human needs about 500-600 calories to feed the brain.

[Hannibal]

In my experience, "brain work" doesn't require much additional carbs.  

So you're an excemption that proves the rule
I know lots of people who are on LC diet in Poland and they say that the more brain work they do the more carbs they need. When they eat to little of carbs their mental ability is much worse.

[TylerDurden]

I recall reading somewhere about how chess-masters find training for chess-matches quite gruelling despite most of them not doing any real exercise, just lots of training of the brain.

[djr_81]

We could take an informal survey like:

Is your daily work: MENTAL? or PHYSICAL?
Are you on ZC, VLC, LC, High Everything?

Article says brain consumes much carbs.
So it's more likely brain workers need more carbs?

My job is 95% mental (essentially I'm an architect but do not have a degree so can't sign/seal drawings).
Two weeks ago I completed an entire set of Construction Documents for a project in ~24 work hours. This set of drawings would have taken me ~40 hours work 12 months ago and I would have submitted a fee to the client based on that estimated time. Part of this improvement in efficiency can be attributed to refining of ability over that year's span but I can attest that I have much greater focus eating RZC and my energy levels don't noticeably decline during the day.

I agree with michaelwh that anaeorbic activity requires the highest intake, or internal creation, of glucose. My brain runs just fine on fat but I take longer to recover from truly strenuous activity.

So you're an excemption that proves the rule
I know lots of people who are on LC diet in Poland and they say that the more brain work they do the more carbs they need. When they eat to little of carbs their mental ability is much worse.

I can run mental laps around many others in my field without any problems while eating RZC.

[miles]

Wearable computing researcher Thad Starner, in a paper (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISJ/is_n3-4_v35/ai_18891267) he wrote (while a graduate student at MIT) on powering wearable computers with energy harvested from the human body, included a table of total body heat dissipation (the corollary of total body energy consumption):


Table 2 Human energy expenditures for selected
activities (derived from Reference 3)

Activity Kilocal/hr Watts

Sleeping 70 81
Lying quietly 80 93
Sitting 100 116
Standing at ease 110 128
Conversation 110 128
Eating a meal 110 128
Strolling 140 163
Driving a car 140 163
Playing violin or piano 140 163
Housekeeping 150 175
Carpentry 230 268
Hiking, 4 mph 350 407
Swimming 500 582
Mountain climbing 600 698
Long-distance running 900 1048
Sprinting 1400 1630

[yuli]

My work is completely mental, it involves both right side mental activity (programming/code) and left side activity (design/art)...
When doing the both together it can be tiring on the brain and carbs I find definitely help me during this time. Not too many but at least some carbs, like a little honey or some fruits.

carbs for "brain work" makes me lol... i mean, brain work requires so few calories compared to the physical.  besides, we're all using our brains!.. whether we're bill gates or michael jordan. 

Ioanna I don't think about mental work as to how many calories it requires, of course its negligible.
I think of it in terms of certain brain chemicals being released in the required amounts, like brain food, nothing to do with the calories.
For example coffee (for SOME people) can be a brain food (not trying to say coffee is healthy so relax ppl  ) and it has no carbs or calories, so can honey.

[RawZi]

I'm a student, and if I'm studying very intensely, or working on a very hard problem, my appetite doesn't go up at all.

    I haven't practiced 100% 0 carb, but I have come close.  I've also eaten high carb.  Low carb seems to agree better with my appetite and how I feel more than high carb.  One thing I noticed is that I could resolve a lot of thought stuff better after cutting most carbs out, just coming to epiphanies right and left.  Also, as far as being a good student and appetite, I never had an appetite in school, never ate much, very little.  I was a good student though, always at the top of my classes, yet that was easy, I didn't have to think much but others did.  Eating high carb for me though, after a while it seems like there can be too much thinking, but never figuring out what you need.  I was talking with my son's doctor about thinking and raw animal foods a little bit the other day.  He wants to learn more, and likes the cultured butter we make, now that he's tried it finally.  He was doubtful, as fiber, complex carbs etc are pushed so much in his profession and saturated fats out (as well as the devious germs of raw).  

[Louna]

I did 2 weeks LC and one last week ZC and my mental was far more clear, much more efficient.
On fruitarism for comparaison, I used to have many ideas at one second, but in all directions.
One zero carb, last week I did a lots of thing I was planning to do for a long time and did it very simply, with heart.

Today I crave on three (good) apples, one before my yoga class, it was quite ok but a little bit too much exciting I feel, and two apples on the beginning of the afternoon, and I feel like I was going averywhere and nowhere with my mental, so much dissipated, wanna do that and that and finally get tired of all this reflexion and did nothing !
So... I take it for a lesson (note I have opcs which is known for its link with an insulin resistance, that may explain in some part my high sensibility to glucose).


I go more slowly apparently one ZC, but feel much more powerful in all levels.

I think about swiss, maybe you heard that they are known to talk and act very lento.
I remembered a (big) forester who seemed to do things like a snail but though when you see all what he did at the end of a day, it was impressive.
It may have a relation with the tons of animal products they eat in Switzerland ?! Also they have a high level of thinking.

[Louna]

Studies observing the link between high fat and brain, on pilots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAEyorZ9vyc