Author Topic: Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism  (Read 2268 times)

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Offline goodsamaritan

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Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism
« on: March 19, 2015, 06:41:26 am »
Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism

http://www.icr.org/article/human-ape-hybridization-failed-attempt/


Ilya Ivanov (1870-1932) was an eminent biologist who achieved considerable success in the field of artificial insemination of horses and other animals. Called “one of the greatest authorities on artificial fecundation,”1 he graduated from Kharkov University in 1896 and became a professor of zoology in 1907. His artificial insemination techniques were so successful that he was able to fertilize as many as 500 mares with the semen of a single stallion.

Ivanov also pioneered the use of artificial insemination to produce various hybrids, including that of a zebra and a donkey, a rat and a mouse, a mouse and a guinea pig, and an antelope and a cow. His most radical experiment, though, was his attempt to produce a human-ape hybrid.2 He felt that this feat was clearly possible in view of how successful he had been in his animal experiments--and how close evolutionary biologists then regarded apes and humans. The experiments were supported by some of the most respected biologists of the day, including Professor Hermann Klaatsch3 and Dr. F. G. Crookshank.4 The main opposition was from "two or three religious publications."5

...

"In the end, the research failed and has not been attempted again, at least publicly. Today we know it will not be successful for many reasons, and Professor Ivanov's attempts are, for this reason, a major embarrassment to science. One problem is humans have 46 chromosomes--apes 48--and for this reason the chromosomes will not pair up properly even if a zygote is formed. Another problem is a conservatively estimated 40 million base pair differences exist between humans and our putative closest evolutionary relatives, the chimps. These experiments are the result of evolutionary thinking and they failed because their basic premise is false.11"

----

Rather interesting to know the Soviets tried this.

Can you guys dig up some other research of this nature?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 08:55:27 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2015, 07:30:13 am »
What are you trying to prove? That humans were created by aliens? The fossil record shows that current humans evolved from hominids in pretty much the same way that any species evolves.  Chromosome numbers can change over time without alien intervention, Edwin. Would you like a link on that?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 07:39:02 am »
What are you trying to prove? That humans were created by aliens? The fossil record shows that current humans evolved from hominids in pretty much the same way that any species evolves.  Chromosome numbers can change over time without alien intervention, Edwin. Would you like a link on that?

Excuse me.

I just stumbled onto this article while searching for "human reproduction" vs apes... and this interesting article came up.

Read it and leave the aliens out of this discussion.

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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 08:52:54 am »
"Chimpanzees become sexually mature between the ages of 10 and 13. Females usually reproduce every 5 years, but a mother is unlikely to raise more than 3 offspring to full maturity during her lifetime, due to a high rate of infant mortality."

http://www.janegoodall.ca/about-chimp-so-like-us.php

Hmmm... makes me wonder about the reproductive success of humans... that human females historically started reproducing at estrus... 12-15 years... and reproduced every 2 to 3 years?  As the historical 20th century fertility rates had shown, national fertility rates at peak went up 7 - 8 children per woman... before population control was implemented.

Maybe you guys have older historical records if humans had lower fertility rates or if just in the 20th century with the advancement of sanitation, humans child survival had just risen?

Or maybe by Jane Goodall's observation in the 20th century, chimpanzee habitat had already been drastically reduced so the chimpanzees did not have enough sustenance for more reproductive success?

Or maybe humans by nature are just more prolific than the chimpanzees and this is why humans came out on top?

Questions, questions.

----

Yes I found the article interesting because I would have thought since lions and tigers can be crossed or that horses and donkeys can be crossed... then certainly some "mad scientists" would have tried humans with apes.

Seems the communists almost a century ago really tried.  Could there be more trials that were made and eventually publicized?

---

Hybrid Man Found in China ???

Hybrid Man Found in China

https://youtu.be/3ZiMknx9wJE

Very interesting... human female x Yeren (chinese bigfoot).

Note... not ape... if it really was a bigfoot then that would have been a HOMINID ?

---------

Here is another take of the same Soviet experiment:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4219

Stalin's Human-Ape Hybrids

Did Josef Stalin order the creation of an army of half-ape, half-human hybrids, and did these experiments take place?

by Brian Dunning

Skeptoid #219
August 17, 2010

Podcast: http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4219.mp3

---------

Here is another article interested in the same idea: http://messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-primates.htm

« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 09:18:05 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 09:55:00 am »
I suppose if I had a problem with smart people who pursue really strange ideas, I'm in the wrong forum. Ha!

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Human-Ape Hybridization: A Failed Attempt to Prove Darwinism
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 02:05:19 pm »
I think that if scientists were able to succeed in human - ape hybridization... no matter how horrid that concept is... will supposedly prove how "close" humans are related to apes.

So far no success in human - ape hybrids so humans seem to be indeed further away from apes.
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Joseph Stalin's Humanzee Experiments [FULL DOCUMENTARY]

Joseph Stalin's Humanzee Experiments [FULL DOCUMENTARY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT1oPQLEi_M

Published on Feb 6, 2014

The humanzee (also known as the Chuman or Manpanzee) is a hypothetical chimpanzee/human hybrid. Chimpanzees and humans are closely related (sharing 95% of their DNA sequence and 99% of coding DNA sequences), leading to contested speculation that a hybrid is possible.

The Ivanov experiments

Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov was the first person to attempt to create a human--ape hybrid. As early as 1910 he gave a presentation to the World Congress of Zoologists in Graz, Austria, in which he described the possibility of creating such a hybrid by artificial insemination.

In 1924, while working at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, Ivanov obtained permission from the Institute's directors to use its experimental primate station in Kindia, French Guinea, for such an experiment. Ivanov attempted to gain backing for his project from the Soviet government. He dispatched letters to the People's Commissar on Education and Science Anatoliy Vasilievich Lunacharsky and to other officials. Ivanov's proposal finally sparked the interest of Nikolai Petrovich Gorbunov, the head of the Department of Scientific Institutions. In September 1925 Gorbunov helped allocate US$10,000 to the USSR Academy of Sciences (now the Russian Academy of Sciences) for Ivanov's human-ape hybridization experiments in Africa.

In March 1926 Ivanov arrived at the Kindia facility, but stayed only a month without success. The Kindia site, it turned out, had no sexually mature chimpanzees. He returned to France where he arranged through correspondence with French Guinea's colonial governor to set up experiments at the botanical gardens in Conakry.

Ivanov reached Conakry in November 1926 accompanied by his son, also named Ilya, who would assist him in his experiments. Ivanov supervised the capture of adult chimpanzees in the interior of the colony, which were brought to Conakry and kept in cages in the botanical gardens. On February 28, 1927, Ivanov inseminated two female chimpanzees with his own sperm. On June 25, his son inseminated a third chimpanzee with his sperm. The Ivanovs left Africa in July with thirteen chimps, including the three used in his experiments. They already knew before leaving that the first two chimpanzees had failed to become pregnant. The third died in France, and was also found not to have been pregnant. The remaining chimps were sent to a new primate station at Sukhumi.

Although Ivanov attempted to organize the insemination of human females with chimpanzee sperm in Guinea, these plans met with resistance from the French colonial government and there is no evidence such an experiment was arranged there.

Upon his return to the Soviet Union in 1927, Ivanov began an effort to organize hybridization experiments at Sukhumi using ape sperm and human females. Eventually in 1929, through the help of Gorbunov, he obtained the support of the Society of Materialist Biologists, a group associated with the Communist Academy. In the spring of 1929 the Society set up a commission to plan Ivanov's experiments at Sukhumi. They decided that at least five volunteer women would be needed for the project. However, in June 1929, before any inseminations had taken place, Ivanov learned that the only postpubescent male ape remaining at Sukhumi (an orangutan) had died. A new set of chimps would not arrive at Sukhumi until the summer of 1930.

Rumored humanzees

There have been no scientifically verified specimens of a human/ape hybrid. A performing chimp named Oliver was popularized during the 1970s as a possible chuman/humanzee, but genetic tests conducted at the University of Chicago concluded that, despite Oliver's somewhat unusual appearance and behavior, he was a normal chimpanzee: he had the same number of chromosomes as normal chimpanzees. The "hybrid" claims may merely have been a promotional gimmick. Despite the dismissal of the claim, Oliver's representational legacy persists in popular culture. The decades-long speculation about his possible human-chimp hybrid origins led to numerous references, many satirical or at least intended to be humorous. For example, the Church of the SubGenius, which has a feast day or holy day (and sometimes several) every day of the year, designates October 20 The Feast of Saint Oliver the humanzee.

In addition, some musical outfits reference Oliver's legacy, such Ontario's The Humanzees. Depictions like these generally ignore or predate the proof that Oliver is not a hybrid. Oliver has been regularly discussed by Karl Pilkington on The Ricky Gervais Show, in a feature called "Monkey News".
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 08:22:51 pm by goodsamaritan »
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