Author Topic: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD  (Read 19239 times)

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Offline A_Tribe_Called_Paleo

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2015, 04:02:15 am »
I dont know why i recieved such ignorant reposes to this question... never did i try and convert or even promote veganism... you guys have serious ego problems.

I was simply asking peoples opinions of Michael Greger, and maybe a little background information... like my background info on the WAPF, showing their studies could be flawed and biased due to the fact they receive funding from the meat and dairy industry... a valid argument

Have to say i am very disappointed with the responses i received on this post. It displays terrible ignorance of social behavior, and demonstrates this forums lack of real, unbiased, peer reviewed scientific data. All i recieved from you guys was harsh resistance, and a steady stream of logical fallacies.

I sited the work of TWO respected MDs that have sound evidence against low carb, promoting a high fiber plant based diet. Just one happens to be a vegan(Michael Greger). His dietary choices should not have any reflection on the results his research has produced... The second was Jeff Leach, of the humanfoodproject. He has spent extensive time studying the Hadza, he does not promote veganism, but still has evidence against low carb, and promotes a high fiber diet.

Judging by the responses, none of you took the time to evaluate either of these two MDs work. Furthermore, you all failed to provide evidence that could provide an alternative point of view.

Once again, i am very disappointed in everyone involved in this thread. Because of the extensive use of logical fallacies, and people's inability to control their egos, nothing was accomplished here. Good job everyone.

Offline eveheart

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2015, 08:44:51 am »
Judging by the responses, none of you took the time to evaluate either of these two MDs work. Furthermore, you all failed to provide evidence that could provide an alternative point of view.

How is that our responsibility? Looks like someone else displays terrible ignorance of social behavior. Do your own research, ATCP. We are not working for you. Maybe all that fiber has given you an inflated sense of entitlement.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2015, 08:46:41 am »
Lex, who is a longtime member here, has thrived VERY well on a zero-carb diet for years. He eats almost nothing but meat and organs. He had many health problems for about 25 years on a cooked vegan diet that pretty much all went away when he switched to very-low-carb/zero-carb carnivorous. Lex posts his blood work numbers here every time he gets blood work done, and his numbers are excellent. He's been doing this carnivore diet for about 8 or 9 years now, I think.

Sabertooth, another long-time member here who eats very-low-carb with mostly meat/organs, has a very similar story. Eveheart eats like Sabertooth as well, and she has been doing this for at least 5 years, as has Saber.

We generally value anecdotal evidence here, plus studies of hunter-gatherer and other traditional diets. Peer-reviewed lab-based studies are not well-designed to look at the multitude of effects that any given diet will have, especially effects that take years to show up.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2015, 08:48:01 am »
How is that our responsibility? Looks like someone else displays terrible ignorance of social behavior. Do your own research, ATCP. We are not working for you. Maybe all that fiber has given you an inflated sense of entitlement.

It's about to give him an inflated sense of what it's like to be banned by cherimoya_kid.

Offline A_Tribe_Called_Paleo

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2015, 09:11:19 am »
It's about to give him an inflated sense of what it's like to be banned by cherimoya_kid.

im not trying to be disrespectful here... but once again you gave a logical fallacy... it worked for this guy, so it should work for everyone....

Go ahead and ban me... i just ask that anyone who comes to this forum and has constipation problems, please guide them to the http://humanfoodproject.com, it could possibly save them lots of money on unnecessary medication.. could even save their life, prostate cancer claims many lives a year in my country. 

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2015, 09:31:26 am »
im not trying to be disrespectful here... but once again you gave a logical fallacy... it worked for this guy, so it should work for everyone....

Go ahead and ban me... i just ask that anyone who comes to this forum and has constipation problems, please guide them to the http://humanfoodproject.com, it could possibly save them lots of money on unnecessary medication.. could even save their life, prostate cancer claims many lives a year in my country. 

No, you are the one saying that fiber cured your constipation, so fiber will cure everyone's constipation. You are also trying to say that a veggie-heavy diet is ideal for everyone, but you simply lack the necessary intelligence, knowledge, curiosity, and reasoning skills to realize that our three anecdotal examples shows that there are definite exceptions to that rule. I don't have to ban you, because you're doing a better job of discrediting veganism than we ever could.

Offline A_Tribe_Called_Paleo

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2015, 09:44:29 am »
No, you are the one saying that fiber cured your constipation, so fiber will cure everyone's constipation. You are also trying to say that a veggie-heavy diet is ideal for everyone, but you simply lack the necessary intelligence, knowledge, curiosity, and reasoning skills to realize that our three anecdotal examples shows that there are definite exceptions to that rule. I don't have to ban you, because you're doing a better job of discrediting veganism than we ever could.

1) I never said it would cure everyones constipation. I presented research from 2 MDs that say high fiber diet will cure constipation, presenting an OPTION to the many people who get constipated on paleo diet. I did not say it was a cure all/cure everyone.
2) I do think a plant based diet, more fruits and tubers, minimal veggies, is ideal. This is based on my experience and the work of Jeff Leach. I never said people should go vegan, ever. I myself eat meat...
3) lack of curiosity? i have tried zero carb raw paleo, didnt work for me. Just came here to share information that sheds light onto the why...

idk why youre acting so defensive... i did not come here preaching veganism, i myself eat raw paleo... I did not viscously attack anyones lifestyle either... I just came here, presenting two MDs work on a high fiber diet(which can be paleo)...

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2015, 10:04:15 am »
Wait, you tried zero carb, got constipated, and now you're blaming us?

Sheesh. Now that's a logical fallacy for sure. Do not conflate us with a zero-carb forum. None of the mods here eat zero carb (or really even low-carb), and probably less than half of the members even eat low-carb. LOL

Offline A_Tribe_Called_Paleo

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2015, 10:10:30 am »
Wait, you tried zero carb, got constipated, and now you're blaming us?

Sheesh. Now that's a logical fallacy for sure. Do not conflate us with a zero-carb forum. None of the mods here eat zero carb (or really even low-carb), and probably less than half of the members even eat low-carb. LOL

Im not blaming anyone...

There is a zc section on this forum... and you were just giving examples of zero carb members...

I dont really care anymore man... some people get constipated on paleo... there are examples on this forum, and many other paleo forums....

Eating more fiber is a possible solution...

can we end this conversation lol...

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2015, 10:46:02 am »
Well, whatever. I didn't realize I moderated a low-carb website. Oh wait, I'm the guy always being skeptical about low-carb with Lex, Phil, etc..

*sigh* lol I can't win.

Offline eveheart

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2015, 11:01:42 am »
some people get constipated on paleo... there are examples on this forum, and many other paleo forums....

Eating more fiber is a possible solution...

Pushing fiber will relieve constipation mechanically, but that's not a solution. I was a high-fiber vegetarian for years and I was still constipated until I followed sensible ancestral-eating advice from this forum. If constipated members here follow that advice, I'm sure they will be fine. You could probably follow that advice with good benefit, instead of overloading your digestive tract all the time.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline A_Tribe_Called_Paleo

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2015, 12:13:25 pm »
Pushing fiber will relieve constipation mechanically, but that's not a solution. I was a high-fiber vegetarian for years and I was still constipated until I followed sensible ancestral-eating advice from this forum. If constipated members here follow that advice, I'm sure they will be fine. You could probably follow that advice with good benefit, instead of overloading your digestive tract all the time.

I dont think im overloading my digestive track... I just followed the advice of Jeff Leach, microbiologist who has been studying gutflora of Hadza. http://humanfoodproject.com/

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2015, 10:45:32 am »
No i dont know anyone being treated by him. My interest comes from my previous constipation experience from the paleo diet, documented on the forum. after Discovering his work, and jeff leach of the human food project, i was able to return to normal bowel function, which many said was not possible. They both recommend daily fiber consumption to be around 100g per day.

I am also not so sure about the new research floating around about saturated fat all these low carb people are promoting. I think its possible a Plant based diet, with minimal amounts of animal products is best for majority of us.
Congrats with your success, A_Tribe_Called_Paleo, and best wishes for future success! your experience matches up pretty well with my own. I prefer to call the beneficial elements other terms than just "fiber" (which is a vague and error-prone term), such as prebiotics, fermentable fiber, or Microbiota-Accessible Carbohydrates (MACs).

I also think that improving one's metabolism and nutrient status (so that one can dissipate energy efficiently without producing lots of toxic byproducts) is a good goal, and a major part of the overall picture. Of course, I could be wrong and YMMV, as always.

None of the mods here eat zero carb (or really even low-carb), and probably less than half of the members even eat low-carb. LOL
None of the mods eat low carb? That's interesting news. Strange that it seems like anyone who talks about a plant-rich approach eventually gets banned.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2015, 11:44:04 am »
There's a difference between plant-rich and vegan. But you're right, most of the people far out on the veggie-ish end of the spectrum don't do well here. I think the main reason for that is that few people have enough intelligence, curiosity, and/or persistence to recognize that ethics and nutrition are not so simply linked as they at first seem to be. Therefore, people with a veggie-ish bent for emotional reasons relating to animal rights can get easily sucked into assuming a simple 1:1 relationship between veggie diets and ethical/moral superiority.

Assuming that people such as us just need more knowledge on these issues becomes an easy trap, then. LOL

But for the record, I really don't think we have any low-carbers among the mods, except for Ioanna, and I think she's been having more carbs recently, if I remember right.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2015, 12:09:22 pm »
Skinnydevil is a high-raw-carber and has never caused any trouble, in fact he has been a worthy  asset to rawpaleoforum. I banned a tribe called paleo because he was so obviously trolling; he was deliberately trying to create conflict, and was deliberately attacking both the concept of raw and the concept of palaeo while promoting cooked vegan diets. I know some people find trolls amusing, but they give an appalling impression to newbies who do not want to read lies about how they are all going to die from parasites or whatever from eating raw meats.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2015, 09:08:37 am »
Skinnydevil is a high-raw-carber and has never caused any trouble, in fact he has been a worthy  asset to rawpaleoforum.
Good to hear that at least one intelligent and polite high carber is still around to add some breadth to the forum so it doesn't become an experiment in groupthink. :)

I banned a tribe called paleo because he was so obviously trolling
OK, I'll take your and Cheri's word for it. I haven't read enough of TCP's posts to know.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2015, 11:19:03 am »
He made the mistake I mentioned, I believe, of conflating veganism and ethical/moral superiority. It seemed that way, anyway. A lot of that type of eater tend to also conflate spirituality with veganism, like I think Dorothy does.  It's easy to do, and a lot of super-bright, nice people do make those errors, but they are errors.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2015, 07:07:30 pm »
Ironically, Dorothy used to get harassed by some members at a vegan forum where the forum owner was tolerant of dieters of all stripes (which SkinnyDevil invited me to, coincidentally) because of her consumption of animal foods and I told her that her plant-rich omnivorous diet was closer to Paleo/primal than vegan and that she would likely be more welcome here. Turns out I was wrong. -[
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline eveheart

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2015, 11:59:09 pm »
He made the mistake I mentioned, I believe, of conflating veganism and ethical/moral superiority. It seemed that way, anyway. A lot of that type of eater tend to also conflate spirituality with veganism, like I think Dorothy does.  It's easy to do, and a lot of super-bright, nice people do make those errors, but they are errors.

What I saw was ATCP's persistent posts that urged (almost begged) people to visit another website before they followed this forum's zero-carb approach. Of course, extremely few of us eat zero-carbs, but he went with that idea and ran with it. Dorothy, as I recall, turned every topic into a call for quark because she healed her mother's cancer with quark or something like that. I think this forum is fairly tolerant of diversity and innovation, but when variety turns into a call to abandon ship, that's both trolling and spamming.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2015, 09:32:48 am »
I explained that I invited Dorothy (and one other chap who posted here a few times, IIRC) here from the forum that SkinnyDevil invited me to, so she was not remotely a troll or ship-sinker and in her private messages to me she was surprised at the hostile reaction she received here after I had pointed out to her that we have pro-dairy subforums, and thus her homemade raw quark and kefir should be acceptable here. It was quite clear in her private communications that she didn't intend any harm whatsoever and was actually trying to be a helpful, constructive contributor. I guess I was wrong about the acceptability here of raw dairy and am to blame for giving her a false impression. :( I figured Tyler would argue a bit with her and I think I warned her about that, but didn't expect nearly the negativity that arose. I think my assurances inadvertently inspired her to discuss dairy here more than she had at the vegan forum.

I actually personally benefited from some info she shared about blood oxygen, which she reported had helped her and her mother, and I learned a few other interesting things from her, despite disagreeing with her on much (after all, I think I was a dairy-free carnivore at the time :P ). So raw quark was not quite the end-all and be-all for her and I've found that I can learn and benefit from people who have different opinions and approaches than my own.

Another fellow (whose handle I unfortunately forget) I invited here from Skinny's forum also did not seem to feel welcome. He didn't do dairy, but he was big on fruits and other plant foods. He occasionally ate raw fish and eggs, IIRC, and he was well liked by many at Skinny's forum, so I figured he would be another good and welcome addition, but he returned to the other forum. I suspect he was scared off by the response to Dorothy, whom he got along well with at the other forum, and some of the anti-carb and anti-plant rhetoric.

Re: ATCP, I already accepted the judgement on him and consider that case closed unless someone care's to come to his defense with new info. I trust your judgment, Eveheart, and don't have inside info to the contrary, so I doubt such info will be forthcoming.

Speaking of SkinnyDevil. Where is he and how is he doing these days? Seems like if he is going to be the model example of this forum's embrace of active plant-positive members that someone should be able to fill me in on this or at least point me to some of his recent comments. I don't read all the threads, so maybe I missed them. It was nice of him to have invited me to that vegan forum despite my carnivory at the time (needless to say, I was quite surprised :) ).

---

Re: the forum topic, I can't stand the sound of Michael Greger's voice, so I wasn't able to listen to him for long. :P I have heard from others that he's pretty smart, though, so maybe some day I'll check out some of his written stuff.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 10:10:27 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2015, 10:11:02 am »
I don't think ATCP was trolling. He just made the mistake of appearing too emotionally involved and too stubborn on some ideas of his, to the point of making dialog with him very difficult. He also criticized members for lacking something he lacked himself, which was a pile of peer-reviewed scientific papers to back up even the slightest intervention. I mean, last time he tried to scare people from eating "untreated" meat with a video of a gross parasite infection, except the parasites likely originated from infected soil, not infected meat*!

I'm not necessary saying he should not have been banned, especially if he kept on with this sort of attitude -and let's not pretend we're all saints here either-, but he has been around here for quite some time without causing any trouble in the past (that I can think of). It seems to me that you moderators were quick to pull the trigger on this one, and a serious warning would've been more appropriate.



*yes, I only read this info from the comment section. However, the person who posted the comment was not promoting a raw meat diet or anything, and gave a specific description of the parasite, which is what made me think he knew what he was talking about. Nobody disagreed with the person either.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 10:52:58 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2015, 10:21:23 am »
Many people on Aajonus's facebook forum are reporting terrible teeth problems...
Aha, just noticed this and see that this suggests that this dude was indeed likely a troll, albeit an oddly long-lasting one, as he apparently didn't know that Aajonus is dead, and thus perhaps only pretended to have been a fan of him. What do you think, JeuneKoq?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2015, 10:24:29 am »
I was ready to try to reason with him, but TylerDurden said he was really harsh and rude with a new member in a thread posted by that new member. It was apparently so out of line that he had to delete the thread. I'm not big on banning people who are into a sincere exchange of ideas, because there are dangers in eating raw animal foods, especially shellfish. I still eat them raw, mainly because I think the minerals are probably more available that way. Overstating the risks is not OK, though.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2015, 10:38:42 am »
Aha, just noticed this and see that this suggests that this dude was indeed likely a troll, albeit an oddly long-lasting one, as he apparently didn't know that Aajonus is dead, and thus perhaps only pretended to have been a fan of him. What do you think, JeuneKoq?
Well, I don't see how people reporting teeth problem on the AV forum has to do with ATCP being aware that AV is dead or not?

I mean, people can still follow his main guidelines regardless of him being alive or dead.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: What do you guys think of Michael Greger, MD
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2015, 10:41:52 am »
I was ready to try to reason with him, but TylerDurden said he was really harsh and rude with a new member in a thread posted by that new member. It was apparently so out of line that he had to delete the thread. I'm not big on banning people who are into a sincere exchange of ideas, because there are dangers in eating raw animal foods, especially shellfish. I still eat them raw, mainly because I think the minerals are probably more available that way. Overstating the risks is not OK, though.
Understood. I was not aware of this incident with the new member.

 

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