More evidence that Cro-Magnon/Neanderthals were fitter/stronger than us

[TylerDurden]

http://phys.org/news/2009-10-modern-men-wimps.html

Hmmm, the above article implies that a better diet would make our descendants more like our ancestors. I doubt it as natural selection I am sure played a large part in the differences. But I am sure that some benefits would occur. For example, are children of RVAFers(who had gone RVAF before having children) more likely to be taller on average than the children of cooked-foodists?

[JeuneKoq]

Are you implying that being taller means being healthier/fitter? It's not necessarily true in our modern world, where people have been steadily increasing in size thanks to a "richer" diet, and especially thanks to cow dairy. Interesting thing that the Scandinavians, one of the tallest people on the planet, are also a population that suffers the most from osteoporosis.

Now Asians are getting taller too, and are beginning to see more cases of hip fracture (proportionally to their population), and more cases of mental development delay, since the introduction of cow milk in their diet through westernization.

There must be a difference between "healthy" taller children brought up on a RPdiet (and who knows, the first generation might be smaller than their parents who drank milk), and "unhealthy" taller children who got tall thanks to natural and synthetic growth hormones in cow milk, and will probably suffer from it in the long run.

[sabertooth]

I grew 10 inches in my 16th year and am taller than anyone in my family for the last three generations...likely due to the fact that I drank three cups of the hormone laced milk per day during that growth period. I remember distinctly that prior to my growth spurt I avoided drinking milk, yet during the spurt I craved it strongly, and around that time I also would drink a couple of raw eggs a day.

I had many symptoms of negative side effects, that went undiagnosed at the time, acne insomnia, depression, moods (typical teenage issues and growing pains, that were probably made worse by poor diet choices) I think many of the negative effects were offset because I did spend a lot of time outside in the sun, I played sports regularly, I learned to do stretching exercises real early in life, so my bones are fairly strong despite the sub optimal nutritional conditions.

The bone health issues of modern Scandinavians is irrelevant because of the complete adulteration of the environmental conditions. Historically the larger framed breeds of humans lived in a way that would prevent loss of bone density and other degenerative conditions. They would nurse their children for the first three years, giving them maternal antibodies which would make them adapted to the raw cow dairy they would consume later in life. The raw foods, fermented foods, and active lifestyle would allow for optimal D levels and other endo-hormones which are responsible for maintaining strong bones.

It is very likely that many of these larger framed northern peoples which subsisted heavily on the highest quality raw animal foods, were extremely healthy, strong and intelligent. Living in abundance they didn't have to restrict their capabilities like other subgroups who had to adapt to nutritional austerity. Though because they traditionally didn't undergo the adaptation to austere conditions their descendants who maintain the larger frames may indeed suffer when the optimal conditions from which they evolved are taken away.

You can be born with the Genes of Arnold Schwarzenegger, and grow up to be a degenerate weakling if you are living the typical modern lifestyle.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, the point I was making was that the average human height is still well below what it was in Palaeolithic times despite a so-called "richer" diet. Now, granted, certain ethnic populations which have adapted to being much smaller even in palaeo times  might not benefit from being taller(eg:-  African pygmies, some East Asian ethnic groups), but I would have thought that being taller would be therefore a good thing for those whose ancestors in palaeo times were much taller?

Suffering from osteoporosis or hip fracture might very well be due to dairy consumption but is not related to increased height, I would think? Could you, out of curiosity,  please provide a scientific link as regards increased mental development delay among East Asians? I assume by "Asians" you mean  specifically "East Asians" as the US weirdly does not seem to distinguish between South Asians and East Asians?

[JeuneKoq]

Hmm, the point I was making was that the average human height is still well below what it was in Palaeolithic times despite a so-called "richer" diet. Now, granted, certain ethnic populations which have adapted to being much smaller even in palaeo times  might not benefit from being taller(eg:-  African pygmies, some East Asian ethnic groups), but I would have thought that being taller would be therefore a good thing for those whose ancestors in palaeo times were much taller?

Maybe, I guess if you intent to live a life where strength and height (eg: elongated body for extra running speed) is necessary for survival, like in paleo times. It sure doesn't hurt to be tall and strong, even today. And most women find it attractive.

Suffering from osteoporosis or hip fracture might very well be due to dairy consumption but is not related to increased height, I would think? Could you, out of curiosity,  please provide a scientific link as regards increased mental development delay among East Asians? I assume by "Asians" you mean  specifically "East Asians" as the US weirdly does not seem to distinguish between South Asians and East Asians?

Lets just say that dairy consumption leads to both increased height and osteoporosis (especially, as Sabertooth points out, if you don't live and eat in a way that helps prevent it), but one doesn't necessarily affect the probability of developing the other.

As for increased mental development delay in Asians (in that case, Japanese people), I read it in GCB's "Manger Vrai", and I trust that he had access to valid info on the matter in order to make such claims, as he was able to back up some of his claims with scientific articles.

I'll still look out there if I find something about it.

The bone health issues of modern Scandinavians is irrelevant because of the complete adulteration of the environmental conditions. Historically the larger framed breeds of humans lived in a way that would prevent loss of bone density and other degenerative conditions. They would nurse their children for the first three years, giving them maternal antibodies which would make them adapted to the raw cow dairy they would consume later in life. The raw foods, fermented foods, and active lifestyle would allow for optimal D levels and other endo-hormones which are responsible for maintaining strong bones.

Don't forget that cow milk has only been made available since the Neolithic, so those "large Scandinavians" probably didn't look the same in paleo times.

[TylerDurden]

Maybe, I guess if you intent to live a life where strength and height (eg: elongated body for extra running speed) is necessary for survival, like in paleo times. It sure doesn't hurt to be tall and strong, even today. And most women find it attractive.

Increased height is also linked to higher intelligence:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_and_intelligence

Lets just say that dairy consumption leads to both increased height and osteoporosis (especially, as Sabertooth points out, if you don't live and eat in a way that helps prevent it), but one doesn't necessarily affect the probability of developing the other.

Other sources online claim that it is overall-increased meat-consumption, not increased dairy-consumption, that is the cause of the increased height.

Average height for Palaeo peoples(presumably White Cro-Magnon fossil evidence mainly  in Europe)=5.9.7 ft-in for men, 5.5.6 for women; average height for modern US Whites; men= 5.8.6 ft/in; women=5.4.3 ft/in according to beyondveg.com:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/angel-1984/angel-1984-1a.shtml

[JeuneKoq]

Increased height is also linked to higher intelligence:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_and_intelligence

Tall and intelligent modern people are not necessary healthier though, as they seem to suggest.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200901/why-are-taller-people-more-intelligent-shorter-people

"First, both height and intelligence may be indicators of underlying health.  According to this view, people who are genetically and developmentally healthier simultaneously grow taller and become more intelligent than those who are less healthy, producing the positive correlation between height and intelligence.

This is a plausible theory.  In our paper, however, Reyniers and I produce evidence against it.  In the analysis of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, we control for the respondent’s health, by using four indicators of health and producing a latent variable for health using principal component analysis in order to eliminate random measurement error.  The association between height and intelligence does not diminish at all when we control for health.   In fact, once we control for other demographic and social variables, health is not significantly correlated with intelligence at all; it actually has a nonsignificantly negative association with intelligence.  So, at least in our sample, health is unlikely to be the common cause for both height and intelligence."

Other sources online claim that it is overall-increased meat-consumption, not increased dairy-consumption, that is the cause of the increased height.

I don't know, were our hunter-gatherer ancestors not supposed to have eaten plenty of meat? I mean, they basically made a great part of the mega-fauna go instinct from hunting, if I'm correct. Perhaps it's a mix of both.

Effect of cow milk consumption on longitudinal height gain in children:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/4/1088.2.full

"In summary, in our prospective study, we observed a height gain in the children who consumed a high amount of cow milk."

"Several previous studies showed an effect of milk on height gain in pubertal children. In 1984 Takahashi (4) reported an acceleration of growth in Japan from the 1950s and suggested the importance of milk consumption. And this increase in height was prominent during puberty. In a cross-sectional study, Jirapinyo et al (5) reported that milk intake and parents' height contributed to adolescent height in females. Bonjour et al (6) found that prepubertal girls who consumed a diet including calcium-enriched foods grew in height in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. In our longitudinal study, the mean height gain in the high-consumption group was higher than that in the low-consumption group, and the difference in height gain between the 2 groups was 2.5 cm/3 y. "


About hip fracture in Japan and other westernized Asian cities (Hong Kong, Singapore...):

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2010/757102/

"A major study concluded that in a Japan population aged 35 years or older the crude incidence of hip fracture was 244.8 per 100,000 person years from 2004 to 2006, and the gender-specific incidence was 99.6 per 100,000 person years for men and 368 per 100,000 person years for women [12]. When data was analysed and compared with that from 30 years ago it was also concluded that there is an increasing incidence of hip fracture in Japanese populations. The highest incidence of hip fracture from Asia has been reported from Singapore. A study by Koh et al. revealed that hip fracture rates from 1991 to 1998 (per 100,000) were 152 in men and 402 in women, and this was 1.5 and 5 times higher than corresponding rates in 1960s [13]"

[sabertooth]

Don't forget that cow milk has only been made available since the Neolithic, so those "large Scandinavians" probably didn't look the same in paleo times.

Im aware of this, and it is a curiosity as to how those people of northern Europe transitioned from 6'6" cro magnon to the still relatively tall dairy drinking modern humans. The very large and uber powerful ancestors must of been apex predators who had access to limitless animal foods from the mega fauna and fish. They could gorge on the most nutrient rich parts of the animals and throw out the lean, this abundance must of allowed for them to maintain very large frames, as well as extremely powerful brains... one can only assume that there must of been a transitional period in which the big game became more scarce, and they had to adapted to living as herds people...so in conditions of scarcity they began drinking milk as a way to provide for their greatly increased energy needs. The larger brains which were evolved during the Cro Magnon period were still crucial for survival and by biological survival imperatives the bulk of the large brained traits were maintained, even when the physical prowess and strength were becoming less necessary due to the development of labor saving technologies.

Think about how the Giants from the north evolved thier great stature and strength before turning to milk out of desperation. They were able to nourish their entire tribes peoples from the crem dala crem of growth promoting raw animal supper foods. All you can eat bone marrow, glands, organs, brains. Think of the growth promoting factors that would of been acquired from gorging oneself in Mammoth marrow. For generations the mega fauna hunters built up huge and powerful vessels upon the fat of the land.

The trend of entropy of our physical forms out of nutritional austerity when the mega fauna bonanza ended is an on going phenomenon, it waxes and wanes through the generations in accord with the epigenetic understanding of how environment scarcity of nutritional resources directly affects genetic expression.

The intelligence, physical size and strength traits "inherited by" and "xpressed in" some modern humans should be seen a a throw back from previous ages where the resources needed to produce such traits were abundant.....and the failings of many of those humans to maintain a high level of health and strength...while falling into patterns of degenerative disease should be seen as evidence that they are not living in accord with their evolutionary environmental template.

Growing a large brain and body frame on a diet heavy in cooked grain and dairy has left many of the descendants of the ice age hunters to make trade offs in their health... by maintaining the larger more powerful brain and skeletal structure at the expense of many other traits....but if the environmental conditions where somehow returned to a resemblance of the ice age nutrition, then I'd say within three generations the epigenetic pattern of Cro Magnon could be reincarnated and human beings would once again live like giants, while maintaining a level of health and intelligence that hasn't been seen for ages.     

[TylerDurden]

Interesting. Quite obviously increased height does not necessarily equal increased health. This would especially apply to African pygmies or other populations that are genetically designed to be smaller than average due to DNA. However, I think it is reasonable to assume that the average height in Palaeo times for European Cro-Magnon should be the desirable average height for modern Caucasians.


One major caveat in my previous data re "Modern US Whites" and height:- The US statistics on race/ethnic groups are inherently misguided. For example, government statistics frequently refer to  someone  as "White" who is of Middle-Eastern/North African origin(and therefore often instead  either, technically, mixed-race, or even a Negro according to the weird one-drop-rule used by Americans). People who are 97% white and 3% black, for example,  are erroneously designated "black/negro" and FBI/police  statistics show a   "Hispanic effect" in that they mostly designate Hispanic criminals as being "White", not "Hispanic". The point being that, quite possibly, modern Caucasians/Northern Europeans  worldwide actually may already  have attained the average height of Palaeo-Caucasian peoples, or may even have exceeded them(for example, the Dutch(of European descent?) have a reported average height of  6ft 1 for men and 5ft 8 for women; and increased dairy consumption has been linked as regards the extra height of the Dutch. Interestingly, prior to modern mass immigration, Americans of Northern European descent  were known to be the tallest in the world, on average, in the 18th and 19th centuries, and much taller even  than their ethnic counterparts in Europe at the time:-

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X03001011

[TylerDurden]

3 generations to counter the disastrous epigenetic effects of 300,000 years of partially-cooked diets, and another 10,000 years of increasingly processed , Neolithic foods etc. with little emphasis on raw among settled societies, along with the associated, accumulated  deleterious DNA slowly built up due to the  lack of natural selection/survival of the fittest for those 10,000 years?  I suspect it would take a LOT longer for us to regain Palaeo standards(perhaps  400 generations/10,000 years?), and then only under certain conditions, a better (RPD) diet being only one of them.

[ys]

the above article implies that a better diet would make our descendants more like our ancestors

That's probably true.  What I noticed is people prefer abundance of lower quality food than limited amount of higher quality food.  Especially during unstable times such as war and other political turmoil.  Some animals exhibit similar behavior.

[sabertooth]

Im being an optimist, and three generations is merely the starting point for the return to the ascent of man line of evolution....still I insist in the unfathomable power and resolve built within the Genetic Matrix. There is a latent resonance of the distant past which exist in many people today and after three generations of realignment and purification could reach a point very close to the primal ideal.....which would then take many subsequent generations to optimize.