Author Topic: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land  (Read 7043 times)

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Offline BushTucka

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Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« on: December 18, 2015, 08:23:32 am »
Okay, i'm not to sure where to put this - because the diet I am trying in preparation for the wild diet I will be transitioning too in a year or so does not fit the instincto/primal/carnivorous categories well (or even paleo as I occasionally, with emphasis on occasionally - eat whole oats and fava beans) - but does share many similarities to some of these diets...

Living wild I wish to live without an agricultural set up so my people and I can live over the full 100skm territory we have been eyeing up, mostly for ethical and environmental reasons (take that agricultural vegans/fruitivores), but also to avoid being caught as what we are doing is highly illegal BUT what we call 'wild agriculture' - i.e. planting and storing seeds in liable wild locations and letting nature take its course - rather than clearing land, diverting rivers, protecting crops from animals, starving the soil, or crowding out the native flora. Potatoes, kale, cannabis, fava beans, oats, carrots, potentially blueberries if they aren't growing native in our area, amongst certain other herbs we use in food, medicine, and ritual. In autumn the deer and elk are fattening up for winter, in summer the trout and salmon are in abundance in the lakes and sea, the perch are biting in the rivers, the berries are ripe etc etc Insects/bugs are likely abundant (havent foraged for grubs or grasshopers there as of yet), and in winter the snow ground dwelling birds are still out and about. Maybe even some wolves or bears to compete with or scavenger off of - and the pines/spruce/birch/fir trees offer potential high carb famine food in their inner bark. Spring has an abundance of wild ripe flowers and buds from a variety of species... Hazelnuts are native - and a tree or two will be planted if we cannot find any in our local - so long as we can avoid harming the environment in doing so :)

So the diet will be pretty darn paleo and wild barring the oat grains and fava bean legumes (although we certainly wont be using the quackgrass grain for food - but possible in the soaking solution for oats to help get rid of the phytic acid?). My main questions come about what to cook and what not to cook, portion sizes, and WHY  as well as refuting some vegan claims about animal foods. But I will suck you all in with further talk of the diet to begin with :)

Both diets are seasonally dependant.
NOW:
50% from briefly blanched leafy greens and cruciferous vegetables (kale, spinach, cauliflower, cabbage, collards, cos lettuce)
20% from animals - muscle meat from cows, cow liver, sheeps brain, cow marrow, butterfish fillets
10% from what I classify as vegetables (which probably has nothing to do with the official classification): the plant itself (not its foliage or fruit or seed) - asparagus, potato, sweet potato, celery, carrot, beetroot.
10% from seed/nut (and occasionally certain grains or legumes - oats and fava beans from the garden - soaked, sprouted, boiled, drained, slow cooked)
10% from raw fruits (capsicum, apple, pear, orange, berries, banana, plum, chili)

Wild/Soon:

50% from briefly blanched leafy greens/foliage and cruciferous vegetables (nettle, dandelion, cannabis, kale, seaweed, thistle etc)
20-30% from animals - lots more marrow, bone broth etc plus a serve of animal protein 5 days a week - potentially:
wood grubs, crickets, grasshopers (all purged first), ants (roasted), shellfish (oysters, clams, mussels, barnacles - cooked or raw?), crayfish (crabs, crays, prawns), squid, trout, salmon, redfin perch, cod, mackeral, herring, potentially shark and tuna if we can obtain sailing capabilities, hare, squirrel, snow grouse, duck/goose, red deer, caribou, moose/european elk, wooly sheep/goat/ox...  not sure how I feel about raw snails or slugs - but of all meats to eat cooked - they seem like the worst in terms of toughness and difficulty to digest... (maybe leave them be or use for bait instead?)

Far more seasonally depending:
Vegetables/plants: Carrot, potato, cattails, lots of other roots i cannot be bothered listing (there are heeeeeaaps).
Fruits (unless we decide to plant some - probably dwarf citrus, or tart apples) if liable in the natural ecosystem) mostly berries  blue, straw, rasp, cloud, rowan, bear - all kinds - but not always available or in abundance.
Nuts, legumes, seeds, grains: oats, hazelnuts, broad/fava beans, and any fatty edible seeds we learn about in the future that grow wild.




Question time:

Fruitarians claim mucus (and thus mucus forming foods like meat and starchy vegetables) are the root of all diseases... On one hand, it makes sense to me that SOME mucas is needed (just as SOME acidity is needed and that attempting to 'alkalize your system' is a long term dangerous fad) - and on the other hand have heard that cooking foods produces intestinal mucus which stops nutrient absorption - and that raw foods - including raw starches and meats do not produce mucus/excess mucus... What are people's thoughts here? Along with alkalinity/acidity - I am seeing a bit of a yin yang principle here. Those with overly acidic/mucus-y caused illness (or yang (hot and moist) overloads in tcm) are being cured with raw vegan and fruitarian diets BUT in the long term having deficiencies if they dont switch to something more balanced - and vice versa - many pure carnivores here - even those not getting animal starch from pre-rigor mortis organs, muscles, or high meats and thus on keto diets are healing their conditions - but in the long term doing damage and needing to come back to something more balanced... Again - what are people's thoughts?

I have even heard that raw meat/raw protein is an even better cleanser that raw fruits and fruit juices... I am very intrigued - and would love someone to fill me in as to why this may be the case...
Does this include mucus cleansing?

In regards to vegans/fruitarians: "Animal protein is toxic, plants are healing and perfect"... I would like to know where this idea that 'animal protein' is some kind of disease causing food? Ideology aside- what are their beliefs? Is it because TOO MUCH methionine produces toxic compounds (despite not enough damaging the liver and t's ability to detox the body)? Is it because they believe (and I am open to) too much protein being harmful? Or is it the acid alkaline diet thing? I'm open to acid forming (or excess alkaline forming) foods stressing kidneys slightly more whilst they try to maintain a healthy blood PH, but otherwise dont buy into the diet... Is it worth mixing alklaline forming kale and spinach with acid forming raw beef? Or best to eat separate? Why?

Does it have something to do with rigor mortis and lactic acid? And how does lactic acid affect the meats digestion, effect on kidneys and liver, and whatever else. Where I want to live, cold shortening will also be unavoidable, what are the pros and cons of cold shortened meat?

Also, how exactly are raw meats both healing and cleansing - what is the mechanism? I would love to be able to turn around and explain to a vegan why they are wrong ;)

Lastly, sugar, fructose, starches, lectins, anti nutrients, cooked beans vs raw beans, cooked starch vs raw starch, mixed first vs mono food, plant toxins making some of the carnivores here feel sick... what is the deal, what is going on? I know this might seem like basic paleo knowledge, but i get mixed answers everywhere I go, and would like to be able to read a summary all in one go, if that isn't too much to ask of people of course :) If not, disregard the question please :)


Thanks everyone :)

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 11:07:45 am »
Oh, for Pete's sake. I could literally write a book and still not even really fully address everything you posted. Honestly, that's at LEAST 5 different threads' worth of topic.

I guess I'll start with the mucus question--I'm not sure where the demonization of mucus and meat-eating began, but I suspect it would probably have been India, which has had a strong vegetarian bent for hundreds or thousands of years. The main problem with avoiding "mucus" is that the same goopy/fatty/mucusy foods that increase sex drive (these people often fear sex and reproduction) also are necessary for a healthy brain. So the short answer is that yes, there's a balance.

Other answers to follow when I have time.

Offline BushTucka

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 12:17:39 pm »
India and china I believe, and now the modern new age movement that seems to have infiltrated alternative media.

Thank you for your time, I eagerly await more feedback :)

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 12:58:34 pm »
Well, if you want to get technical about it, veggie-ism didn't really take off in China until Buddhism arrived in the 6th century or so. The Chinese were (and many still are) all about specific animal foods like velvet deer antler (lu rong), dog kidneys, etc. to improve health and build "jing" (literal definition is semen, but includes adrenal and glandular health too).

Don't test me, I know my shit on the topic of  Chinese herbology and nutrition. LOL

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 01:03:24 pm »
But I agree that some of the veggie movement in the U.S. does come from Chinese/Thai/etc. Buddhism. Most of it is directly from India, though, I think, either Buddhism or Hinduism. Although the Seventh-Day Adventists put up some big numbers too, in terms of sheer numbers of people trying to be veggie, or at least veggie-ish. They're irrelevant in this discussion, though--your vegan friends surely all got their veggie-ism from Buddhism (or Hinduism) of one type or another, and we don't ever get any of the SDA-type vegans trolling here.

Offline BushTucka

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 01:36:50 pm »
there were a couple of taoist extremists who thought that meat was poisonous too...
I agree with you entirely by the way :)

I would really like to be able to refute their 'meat is toxic' 'science' both to annoy them but also for me though. Being an ex vegan, much of the nutritional ideology is stuck in me and gives me anxiety about the new food I am eating.

It doesn't bother me what fruigivores say because its just an impossible diet in the wild - even high fruit diets of the equator need animal foods and starches anyway it seems... But I am going just south of the arctic circle... so maybe with some environmentally destructive agriculture (defeating the purpose of living wild if you ask me) I could be a vegan but certainly not a fruigivore - but im just not sure its the best choice for my health or the environment - and i have nil ethical concerns about bugs or fish (and being the wierdo I am believe plants are conscious in some ways and dont want to die either - science backs this up), am reasonably fine with poultry, and some days fine with ruminants and some days a little iffy about killing them - i think it comes more down to the ability to see ourselves in other life than what life actually is more important - im sure the bugs and potatos we happily eat don't like being killed...   

I just want from a nutritional perspective to be able to look at raw meat and feel 'this is healthy, cleansing, and healing' rather than 'this is toxic'.. There are just a few claims from vege 'scientists' about meat being bad, and a few claims from members here about raw meat being healing and raw protein being cleansing - that I would like to understand better - dispute the vege science, and learn the science behind cleansing meats.

The ethics are something id rather keep personal and figure out myself :)

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 03:10:39 pm »
Where will you be living wild?
How many companions will you be having?
How long do you plan on living wild?
What would you do for medical needs?
Communications for rescue?
What about self defense? Against wild animals?
If you are a guy, what about sex? (I'd find being sex less harsh).
If you have women, are you equipped with pregnancy and birthing knowledge?

---

I suggest you take wild living training courses first, especially from people who have lived wild in the area you plan to live in.

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If you've read some of my posts here, I don't think our current human form is built to live wild and alone.  At minimum we would have to be in a tribe.  We are a pretty much domesticated stock.  How much technology are you willing to live without?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 03:16:16 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline BushTucka

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2015, 07:56:52 pm »
Hey Goodsamaritan :)

We'll be going somewhere in Norway, and there are about 5 of us at this stage but people are welcome to join our little family!
We're keen on travelling the world first but otherwise we plan on living our lives there, society just isn't for us.

For medical needs I am trained in some serious first aid and have some knowledge of field surgery, and we're all pretty good at cultivating certain medicinal plants for anaesthesia, blood clotting, blood thinning, pain killing etc to help with first aid. Currently I would put us at late medieval/early renaisance era of medical expertise ;) But without a hospital we're pretty capable - I imagine serious internal injury or fractures would be problematic - we have a bit of an 'oh well' attitude about that but we do love each other and would risk getting caught by going to the closest city/town (there are 2 within a weeks walk north and south) to seek medical attention if need be.

But no communications, because it is highly illegal to be in a country without permission or identification, but it is certainly the life we prefer (we've done a little similar stuff here in australia living indigenously, and plan to travel the world that way, and only working/woofing if we have to) so we're all comfortable :)

Self defence is iffy. Myself and another are martial artists and train quite seriously (but with padding - my advice to anyone is not to feel tough and get punched or kicked in the liver or kidneys or jaw all the time - it just isnt healthy - use glovers and padding to preserve your vital organs) and have been learning the 12inch dagger and 6.5ft quarterstaff - and are somewhat less seriously studying historical fencing (longsword, sword and buckler, spear, shields, sabres) and buy all the books we can (getting all our books where we want to go is going to be tough!).... With a lit torch, our numbers, loud yelling, or a spearhead on the end of the quartestaves if need be, we'd be able to defend against bears or wolves...

But it's the 21st century, not 1350... we would be kidding ourselves if we thought we could defend ourselves from people - but we aren't the violent types anyway, we'd more likely run and hide than seek to fight people :p Which is why crossing illegally and not being known to be living there is the best defence against any human who would otherwise seek to hurt us or take us away.

Sex is tough... condoms can be made but are obviously not going to be ass fool proof... what does actually work so long as you understand the science behind it is pulling out - but you must know that after ejaculation there is still live sperm in your penis and if you have sex again that sperm/semen will contaminate pre-ejaculatory fluid - which otherwise normally doesn't contain sperm. You can urinate and otherwise just wait a few hours before 'going round 2' so to speak :p But I (dunno about others) have been learning about tantra and learning not to cum - redirect semen and have a 'dry' full body orgasm instead... not goo enough to use as a contraceptive method yet however :D

We're currently learning about birthing and child rearing. Including how to deal with complications, alternative postures, hypno births, potentially we might even look for a surgery manual somewhere and see if c-sections are within our skill set (which includes stitching wounds, clamping arteries, and setting simple fractures - so it might be stretch).

The big thing for women is sanitation. Obviously the ladies have menstrual cups, but if for any reason we'd need more in the future... well lets just say last time we tried making our own plastic moulds (organic - starch and vinegar and glycerine - all stuff we can make from natural materials) they didnt turn out too well :p
I mean, fabric 'rags' might work - i know that iws traditional... but id feel sorry for them if they had to resort to that... bum hankies are bad enough ;)

We're super confident not only with outdoor survival, but long term living - i.e. completely competent spinning fibres by hand, wood, stone, and metal work, bow making by hand, knive making, shelter building. This is what we do for fun, I love it so much :)The only issue would be preserving fishing rods (which arent the most effective form of fishing in most parts of the river/lake/fjord/sea - they do have some good applications though), because they are either made from graphine or homemade split bamboo cane - and after 'over cultivating' some bamboo in our area and it spreading out of control, we'd rather not bring bamboo to norway - too much risk of it going feral and hurting the ecosystem, and it just wouldn't fit in.

To put into perspective our level of confidence - most of us are either unemployed or part time employed and spend a good 90% of our waking moments just reading, learning, experimenting, and practising - our camping trips are amazing - and if we are ever short on stuff like fruit or foliage or vegetables we go to a local produce shop and take all the stuff from their bins because they are very wasteful throwing away fresh produce to make room for the next days fresh produce... and it's mostly in packaging and good shape anyway :) Im getting some work to be able to pay for the new high quality meats pretty soon (seeking now), but that's besides the point - we love learning and spend our time practising and experimenting and reading and learning this stuff - in about 2 years just talking about myself I have gone from incompetent setting up a tent to not even needing a tent or a clothing shop or a sweatshop or a professional bow maker or tool maker or flint and steel or flick lighter.

And to answer your last question - we are giving up all electronics (which makes you feel amazing even after a week of camping away from towers and mobiles and computers) and internal combustion engines because we have no roads or need for motors where we are going (but please look into running IC engines on water/hydrogen from water if you want free fuel you will not be disappointed), but we are learning about sailing, medicine, crafting (metal at the moment), potentially (but this is a silly and dangerous dream really) paragliding, so the physics, chemistry, and biology is all there, and thus 'primitive' technology - but nothing we cant make/remake/service ourselves from the natural world around us - you'd be surprised what you can do though :)

Im so passionate about everything we have been learning and if anyone wants to know more I will share with you whatever you are curious about :)
But cannot stress how great it is for everyone to believe they are capable of whatever they want and just taking the plunge :) Learning - outside of a compulsory school environment - is SOOO much fun :)

Cheers
Bush :)

Offline BushTucka

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2015, 08:01:54 pm »
please forgive the typos, i will fix them very shortly :)

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2015, 10:14:35 pm »
Is meat toxic for bears? What about baboons? Chimps eat meat, they hunt and eat smaller monkeys. If it's natural for other omnivores to eat it, why not us?

Offline RogueFarmer

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2015, 05:32:55 am »
Where will you be living wild?
How many companions will you be having?
How long do you plan on living wild?
What would you do for medical needs?
Communications for rescue?
What about self defense? Against wild animals?
If you are a guy, what about sex? (I'd find being sex less harsh).
If you have women, are you equipped with pregnancy and birthing knowledge?

---

I suggest you take wild living training courses first, especially from people who have lived wild in the area you plan to live in.

---

If you've read some of my posts here, I don't think our current human form is built to live wild and alone.  At minimum we would have to be in a tribe.  We are a pretty much domesticated stock.  How much technology are you willing to live without?


I really don't think I would have a whole lot of problem living "wild" with tools by myself other than the fact that I have very little desire to do so. However in a lot of ways it would be easier and more comfortable than the domesticated life I have now. Hoping to improve upon that.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Actually moving to the wild - living off the land
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2015, 10:59:34 pm »
I would bet that wild raw meats / sea food would become your best nutrition source in Norway.  It is cold there.  Better learn how to store your meat for lean times.  You would have to find a way to survive winter.

Your future children will need all the animal food you can get.

Good luck, good skill.  And hopefully someone will document your journey for all the world to see.

May your tribe increase!

Post a picture of your tribe here!
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