Author Topic: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)  (Read 18218 times)

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Offline sabertooth

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Offline ys

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2016, 12:17:45 pm »
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LIke I stated before every one the complaints against Russia could easily be applied to parts of America

You just don't get it.

It is true, many parts of the US look very different in terms of income, lifestyle, political view, etc.  Texas, NY, California, Seattle.  They all different. They all have their own pluses and minuses.

If you knew anything about Russia you would know that you can categorize the whole country into two entities: Moscow/St Petersburg and everything else.  Pick two spots on the map at random and lifestyle, political view, and for most parts income will be identical.  The exception is far northern region where income is higher due to harsh climate.

The country is exceptionally homogeneous so your comparison is completely invalid.

Quote
I know there must be a similar situation in Russia
I'm sorry to tell you but you don't know jack about Russia.  Your assumptions are taken out of thin air.

The country side is dying.  Villages get abandoned by the hundreds.
Here is a partial list
https://urban3p.ru/category/cities/?country_id=1

Quote
It is for those small family farmers, and the newly awakened millennial generation that we should give our support and attention to.......

Small family farmers are more of an exception than the rule.  And it is a dying breed.  Like I said earlier go live there for 6 months and you will see it for yourself.



Offline Iguana

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2016, 01:15:32 pm »
Thanks YS for your first hand report about Russia.

I drove into Soviet Union (Moldavia and Ukraine) about 8 times in 1974-75 and I was terribly shocked to see a country where people were so incredibly poor and where time and progress seemed to have stopped around 1918.

I supposed things had improved after the perestroika and glasnost, but I learn from you that it hasn't much. So sad.  :(
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2016, 12:47:44 am »
Thanks for the first hand ground report, and forgive my impetuous optimism..... yes I am sure that much of the bleakness and negativity is real, but I insist that there is a larger context which is not a part of your analysis. Its easy to criticize as a tourist, but god forbid you walk a mile in their shoes...Spend 6 months living on minimum wage in Hazard Kentucky and I am sure you will find there are parts of Russia that wouldn't seem that bad by comparison....

Still there is much to the story that will never be told, but I think its important to discuss a little bit of history so we can see why things are the way they are...

Russia has been historically an entity onto itself, outside invaders have always worked to subvert and plunder, so they developed within the very soul of their culture a need for a strong man to hold back the chaos from within as well as the constant threats from the outside world. There is a whole set of circumstances which explains why Russia was never right for the Kind of Western democracy or enlightenment society to evolve. So judging Russia in comparison to the west is very unrealistic.

Dig a little deeper and you will see that the revolution was totally instigated from outsiders....The Great war funded by the banking dynasties of Europe forced a population of mostly farmers into fighting for their lives in the most brutal kind of war ever.... their nation was decimated and order was lost in the apocalyptic aftermath....the very same banking dynasties that funded both sides of the great war began to fund radicals within Russia to overthrow the Czars...then when the newly established Provencal government voted out the conspirators and was desperately attempting to regain order, Lenin was sent in with 5 MILLION DOLLARS of Capitalist gold and used it to seize control.

The beast of Russia couldn't ever be controlled entirely the way that other vassal states have been, but that was never the point of the occupation, the point was to destabilize, so to keep them weak and within their boarders, there was never an endgame.... Lenin was aware that things were not going well and that the results of the revolution were not to his ideals....but he was poisoned and another strong man took hold and with the soviet union in place, the failings of the imposed system had no way to possible correct itself...
 
Perestroika was a lie.... the Soviet Union fell and was immediately infiltrated by the foreign money interest. Corrupt oligarchs took huge amounts of money and resources from the former soviet states, and kept the economic situation from improving....until PUTIN came in, and with an understanding of what was actually happening, seized the private property of the oligarchs....only to find out that many were acting as fronts of western masters and how much of the wealth was already stolen...Like him or hate him there simply was no other choice but for a strong man to come in and clean house....and indeed he did turn things around and Russia began to recover to such an extent that it threatened the financial powers of the world enough that they began waging a preemptive all out economic and information war. This is not about human rights in the Ukraine, as much as it is about the Russian people saying no to Monsanto and refusing to deal with the criminal banking cartels of the west(wake up and smell the Hypocrisy)

If it wasn't for the economic warfare being waged against the people of Russia, there would indeed be a much better standard of living, and a remarkable rate of overall improvements across the board....Personally I think its stupid to think that if Russia somehow fails and continues to flounder as a developed nation, that somehow the world will be a better place....I see them as a vital part of the global civilization, as a creature which maintains balance within the force...They are the last bastion against the likes of Monsanto, the uni-polar war state, and the Too big to Jail banking syndicate....The EU is under siege with Gladio style psyops.... Monsanto is at the Gates...the TTIP of the iceberg is dead a head....and the Russian Bear is the most formidable allies of the truth movement, which is exposing all of these issues.

"I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain"       
 Sympathy for the Devil
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 05:27:36 am by sabertooth »
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2016, 08:34:27 am »
Come on...You cannot believe that a man who, like the North Korean Presidential bloodline who manipulates the crowd into believing that there's not better leader than themselves with illusions and lies, is an ally, let alone a guide to the "truth movement". Putin is not a fighter of' and an alternative to the past communist dictators: he is one of them, in a capitalist democracy disguise.
The part about him getting one of the highest taekwondo rank without ever doing taekwondo should be enough to make you realize this. That's not the only fantasy he's made up to keep his fanclub going crazy. It's just the only one I really remember on top of my head.

Putin is as corrupt as the bankers & friends.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2016, 09:17:56 am »
Putin is useless for Russians unless they have a relative in the FSB. But they would be even worse off  under the Americans. Putin once did a wonderful job on some of the various utterly corrupt oligarchs  who rose under Yeltsin, even apparently making Berezovsky cry in one phone-call/plea to the Kremlin before the latter's suicide. Sadly, Putin is not on my good-guy list any more. His success against the Sunni fundamentalists  in Syria has directly led to the current horrendously expensive migrant crisis in Europe, as Saudi Arabia and Qatar are not willing to take in refugees despite starting the whole bloody conflict in the first place. I can see that this is Putin's revenge on the West for imposing sanctions on Russia for the annexation of the old Russian Crimean province. Assad is laughing too - according to reports, he is not only driving out Sunnis militarily and importing Shiites from Lebanon and Iran, he is also deliberately encouraging   any undesirable Sunnis  in regime-controlled areas in Syria who want to leave the country via handing out cheap passports en-masse etc., and making it as hard as possible for such undesirables  to return to Syria as well.Well, it seems that no government is the only good government.  I blame it on the Neolithic era, before that all we had were tiny tribes of no more than c.200(?) people max.Nations, cities/governments etc/ are so unnatural.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2016, 10:52:45 am »
Primates walking upright was unnatural until we started doing it. In fact, we are so prone to knee and back problems precisely because we have not completely evolved to walk upright.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2016, 12:06:55 pm »
GRRRRR......No sympathy for the devil.

The primary purpose for starting this discussion is to access the validity of Putin's proclamation to make Russia Food Independent and the number one producer of organic food in the world....I would think in this community I could find people who would appreciate such a lofty ambition....at least they are making an effort...I know cynically its for their own selfish reasons...organic produce will be at a premium once Europe falls to the TTIP and is forced to adopt the insanely genocidal agricultural practices of the United States....so what. I say lets stand back and give the country 5 years to see if they can get it together...

Come on...You cannot believe that a man who, like the North Korean Presidential bloodline who manipulates the crowd into believing that there's not better leader than themselves with illusions and lies, is an ally, let alone a guide to the "truth movement". Putin is not a fighter of' and an alternative to the past communist dictators: he is one of them, in a capitalist democracy disguise.
The part about him getting one of the highest taekwondo rank without ever doing taekwondo should be enough to make you realize this. That's not the only fantasy he's made up to keep his fanclub going crazy. It's just the only one I really remember on top of my head.

Putin is as corrupt as the bankers & friends.

Putin Bashing is fun and easy to do, but not very constructive...and I guess neither is Putin worshiping....But for the love of humanity I do not blame the Russian people for wanting to believe in their leader...after years of embarrassment with the previous slew of cronies....he is a pivotal figure and could give the people HOPE AND CHANGE....so what if the people think he is the Chuck Norris of the Asian Continent.

Is Corruption relative? can you even begin to compare the level of corruption between the Machiavellian leaders of the west, and the New guard of the land of iron curtains? How can we even know what to believe when considering the degree of secrecy that all government is engaged in? The answers my friend is blowing in the wind....

I still have a strong feeling the Russians can be an asset to the truth movement....The resistance of people working for their own selfish ends, regardless of how futile their lives are portrayed to be, are a bulwark against the Borgs and the Zorgs which are swallowing up whats left of the free world...

Russia State media has allied itself with the alternative media of the west and have managed to produce some much more convincing propaganda, than the overt tripe and irrelevant drivel many Americans have been force fed their entire lives.

Do people understand that In America Under the patriot act the media networks are not allowed to do negative reporting on corporations....the media is not allowed to report of the factory farms...Monsanto has an act of congress which gives them total free reign to do as it please..... while people like myself are not allowed to share stories of alternative healing through the mainstream channels(I am beginning to feel like the Network told the doctors NO, and the local news reporter hasn't gotten back with me)

Anyway, back to the mission of maintaining a positive outlook..... the frustrations of trudging through misunderstandings , brought up in these discussions are helpful developing higher levels of understanding and enables the hacking out the Memes which will transform our world....

As the saying goes "No standing army can stop a Meme whose time has come"
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 02:01:14 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2016, 12:45:56 pm »
Primates walking upright was unnatural until we started doing it. In fact, we are so prone to knee and back problems precisely because we have not completely evolved to walk upright.
Hmm, I recall coming across this claim before and did not question it as it seemed reasonable , but random googling shows it is not quite the case.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080320-biped-ancestor.html

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070531_bipedalism.htm

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2007/05/walk-orangutan
 That is, bipedalism appears to have  started to evolve  in the primates millions of years  before the advent of hominids, indeed likely well before hominids left the trees for the ground,  and apparently this conveyed a major evolutionary advantage  as regards better foraging ability etc.. So it is quite natural as regards evolution. I would also suspect  that we are almost wholly adapted already since the only disadvantages are  back-aches, knee-issues and(I vaguely recall?) more difficulty giving birth compared to non-bipedal mammals.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2016, 12:50:44 pm »
This article suggests differently:-

http://rbth.com/business/2015/03/25/sanctions_boost_russian_organic_food_production_44629.html

Sometimes one never knows what to believe in the media. If I recall my past visit to the Ukraine in the 1990s, the situation was then much like ys describes. On the other hand, maybe sanctions are forcing a boost in domestic food production of some sort?

Offline Brad462

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2016, 03:35:41 am »
Here in the USA almost 1/3 of adults are out of the work force and food stamps are at an all time high.  So it is not like the west is booming or anything.

Interview: Russian General details the structure of New World Order
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4r29jXto28
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 07:03:42 am by Brad462 »
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2016, 11:48:47 am »
"What they Feared is an understanding between the USA and the USSR"

The General makes some interesting points....He gives me the feeling that the internet conspiracy theories of the western alternative media have infected the minds of many of the highest ranking individuals in Russian political sphere, the two sides of the world are beginning to be able to understand each other in a way that has never before been possible. There is still a huge language barrier, and the cold war era brainwashing will take a new generation free of the old world view, to completely tear down these walls that divide the people from the two sides of world. This wall was constructed by slaves whom were so hopelessly enslaved that they lived their entire lives falsely believing themselves free.  Great walls and iron curtains have been used to keep the masses on both sides in their place. By imposing the eternal threats of mutually assured destruction by the other, we have all been blinded by MAD-ness.

The walls are crumbling and I say let us continue to chip away at the foundation of the old world view built by the enslaved minds of men long since dead....Ideas are more powerful than standing armies...The old cronies of Russia are wise to the dirty old tricks of the spy vs spy era, any overt attempt by the west to interfere with their political structuring will meet strong resistance...But the Gatekeepers on both sides of the great divide are in many ways unprepared for the title wave of raw truth being espoused by the liberated voices of the alternative media...whose messages know no boundaries, and is a force in and of itself.
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Offline sabertooth

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Offline ys

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2016, 01:36:50 pm »
Quote
.Spend 6 months living on minimum wage in Hazard Kentucky and I am sure you will find there are parts of Russia that wouldn't seem that bad by comparison...

LOL.  Dude, you have no idea where I've been and what I have seen and where I lived.
Your Hazard Kentucky would be a paradise compared to where I came from.

Do people in Hazard have running water?  Do they have hot water?  Can they take shower daily?  When they go to the store do they see empty shelves?  Can they buy toilet paper?

I grew up in the small town pop 30,000.  My family finally got a one-bedroom apartment for 5 of us on the 5th floor and no elevator.  The pumps in the water tower were not powerful enough and we would get water only at night.  So we would fill up bath tub at night and use that water during the day for cooking, washing hands, and flushing toilet with a bucket.  Every weekend we would go to public bath to wash ourselves.  The bath house had long stone benches, you would pick up zinc basin, fill it up with water, put it on the bench and wash yourself.  Bath house had an old, dark, and dirty sauna but it was the highlight of the bath trip.  I still miss russian sauna.

We had black and white TV with 2 channels and that was in 80s.   How many TV channels you had in Hazard in the 80s?

We used newspapers and magazines because toilet paper was never to be found in the whole town.  Could you buy toilet paper in Hazard in the 80's?

People had to travel several hours to the nearest big city to get most of the goods, clothing, and food such as sausage and fish.  There was decent fresh food at the wet market but it was very expensive and we could only buy small amounts every week.

The school had a single bathroom outside.  It was just wide open concrete slab with 5-6 holes in it.  The sight and smell was something else, esp in the winter where you had to be very careful not to slip on the yellow ice and not step on the piles of shit.  Have you had such a gem in Hazard?

So we lived like this for 12 years.  And it was considered decent because smaller towns or villages had it much worse.  Iguana is absolutely correct.  The country side was developing painfully slow and looked dilapidated almost everywhere.  It was everyone's dream to get out of this shit hole and relocate to a bigger city preferably Moscow or St. Petersburg.  But we did not have much freedom of movement.  It was incredibly difficult to change towns.  You could not register your new address unless you had a work in the new town.  And you could not get a work in the new town unless you register your address there.

We got lucky and moved to the US in 92.  We had no money and spoke no language.  Immediately we went to work for a minimum wage (4.25/h I still remember) during the day and in the evening we studied.  And you telling me about Hazard.  Can we stop this conversation now?

Of course it gotten much better since 80's and 90's but people have good memories and up to this day given the chance would trade countryside for a big city without much hesitation.   That's why there is no such thing as small family farmers in Russia. I am not saying they do not exist, they do, it's just there is so few of them that fact can be safely ignored.


Iguana,
It was really brutal starting around 88, 89, and all throughout 90s.  Starting with 2000 it gotten much better due to high oil and natural gas prices.  The peak of "prosperity" came around 2007.  But thanks to the imbecile Putin the country is plowing right back towards 90s.


 

Offline Brad462

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2016, 01:50:45 pm »
It is interesting to read your experience and knowledge of Russia, Thank you for sharing...  But why does it matter how poor or how rich Russia is?  Germany had really great technology under the rule of Hitler.  Material wealth is irrelevant to how moral a society is.

Say what you will about Russia, but at the very least you can say they are not actively funding and supporting ISIS and Islamic terrorism unlike the west. 
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Offline ys

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2016, 02:03:56 pm »
Quote
Say what you will about Russia, but at the very least you can say they are not actively funding and supporting ISIS and Islamic terrorism unlike the west.

Let's leave this to another thread.  The topic is Family/Organic farming in Russia.

Quote
On the other hand, maybe sanctions are forcing a boost in domestic food production of some sort?

I will explain.  Organic farming is very limited and it will stay limited because there are very few people who are health conscious to drive the demand.  At best the sanctions will result in several big industrial farms using typical industrial pesticides and fertilizers.  Nothing more.  When there is shortage of produce no one gives a shit if it is not organic.  Grow this much volume of food as quickly as possible, make it affordable for people, fill up the shelves, and hope it does not end up with unrest.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2016, 09:54:34 pm »
ys, I've driven through Hazzard and surrounding areas, and lived within 100 miles of there my whole life. Plenty of people in Hazzard don't have hot water, running water, etc.. It's actually very similar to where you grew up, in terms of poverty. However, Hazzard and a few other places in Appalachia (and inner cities, etc.) are as bad as it gets in the US. Most places are obviously much better off.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2016, 11:20:48 pm »
My mother grew up in a town poorer than many of the poor of hazard and the house where she lived with her 5 siblings my great grandparents , and grandmother didn't have indoor plumping until the 1990s, yet when ever I would go visit as a child I noticed that they were happy people and lived good lives. My grandmother told me of growing up in a cabin her grandfather built, and of how she never even knew she was poor because there was nothing to compare their conditions to.... I am a critic of the idea that somehow life got better for our family by moving to the mini metropolis of Lexington...the standard of living increase seemed to directly coincide with a loss of over all health and happiness in my mothers generation.

The exodus from the country side to the city has been just as detrimental to family farms in America as they have been in Russia...Once the interstate went in my mothers home town died, the lumber mill closed, and most of the people left... The money is aggregated to the city and like moths to a flame the people go...only recently has there been a move for a small minority of brave souls to leave Babylon and return to the land... This trend is very small in the grand scheme of things and would go unnoticed by most...I am only aware of it because of my own personal quest for Paleo Quality foods.

To me many of these comparisons between two different worlds can be as harmful as helpful, because we never know for sure what the experience of others truly is....compassion and the understanding that there are some things we will never understand is much more helpful in cultivating acceptance and peace of mind for the things we cant change, and the wisdom to know of the things we can actually do something about.



I will explain.  Organic farming is very limited and it will stay limited because there are very few people who are health conscious to drive the demand.  At best the sanctions will result in several big industrial farms using typical industrial pesticides and fertilizers.  Nothing more.  When there is shortage of produce no one gives a shit if it is not organic.  Grow this much volume of food as quickly as possible, make it affordable for people, fill up the shelves, and hope it does not end up with unrest.

Come off it, You cant know this for sure.

One of the primary incentives for the new policies of the Russian government to encourage ecologically grown foods is money....in the next few years as more people awaken to the benefits of more ecologically grown foods there will be a huge increase in demand, which if Russia is able to expand their production of Organics, they will be able to make very good economic gain....Demand already exceeds supply, so I do not see why there will not be an effort to increase production of NON GMOs that can be sold for a much higher price.

The fact that most people dont care about ecologically sound food, is a defeatist attitude, which presupposes that things will never change...but people are capable of change and all it would take is an enlightened faction within the New guard to encourage the people toward these trends and like wild fire these ideas will spread, and the next generation will be demanding the kind of changes that we would want to see in the world.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 12:02:24 am by sabertooth »
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2016, 11:41:14 pm »
On a more or less related thread, I have been studying the school of life, there are some thought provoking animated shorts, and this clip goes to the heart of the divide between the old world and new world view of money and democracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzr3AOtFA8o
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2016, 02:10:50 am »
I had always thought that "Hazzard County, Georgia" was only a fictional county derived from one of the favourite TV series of my childhood. It seems that, on checking, there is only one "Hazard Town" in the US albeit with only one "z" and in Kentucky, sadly, but CK's Freudian slip "Hazzard" made me laugh in recollection. I suppose, sadly, that the TV show bore no similiarity whatsoever  to what it was  really like in Georgia, let alone Hazard County, Kentucky....

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2016, 03:51:51 am »
Although a fictional program, characters from "The Dukes of hazzard" and much of the plot were based on truish stories from Appalachia. Kentucky was full of Boss Hogg style corruption, moon shine runners, beautiful home grown Daisies and plenty of good ol boys never meaning no harm..and to this day, still is in some ways... On some level those colorful country people forgotten by the big wide world world, may not be that much different from the Boss oligarchs, vodka brewers, beautiful Russian Daisies and good ol comrades of the Taiga 

Typical example of the Boss Hogg Corruption which continues to this day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4gPCpws60

A Notable fun fact. The actor Sorrell Booke which played Boss Hogg regularly ate Raw liver to help him get into the role.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 04:02:42 am by sabertooth »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2016, 07:46:59 am »
Roscoe P. Coltrane!

50% of 50% of 50%!

Making their waaaaay, the only way they know how...

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2016, 07:48:34 am »
My great-grandfather was a liquor-runner in Surry County, NC back when it was a dry county. I'm not sure he ever earned an honest dollar.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2016, 07:49:45 am »
A great deal of my family fits those "you must be a redneck if..." jokes.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Where Have all the Cowboys Gone (Russia?)
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2016, 12:34:47 pm »

Making their waaaaay, the only way they know how...

Thats just a little more than the law would allow...

A lot of people from our part of the world come from a long line of honorable criminals. Redneck culture is still strong with many of my kinfolk. 

My Great great grandfather "Ol Daddy" made a living making Moonshine and Medicinal Wines with elderberry during prohibition...My Granny told me about a great many many of his exploits.... During prohibition people would come all the way from Indiana to buy his stuff.....The first time she ever saw a car and black people she was four years old and a group of black Men drove out to pick up some of her Granddaddy's home brew.
 
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

 

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