Author Topic: How many carbs do you need?  (Read 64587 times)

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Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2008, 07:16:32 pm »
For what I know glucose is more efficient in energy imbalance terms.

Even if you have adapted to fill your energy requirements with ketones, glucose is made from protein because it is the only brain fuel.

IMHO
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Offline JustAnotherExplorer

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2008, 04:35:50 am »
It used to be thought that the brain ran exclusively on glucose, but Barry Groves claims that this study shows that assumption to be erroneous and that the brain is just a s capable of running on FFA's as any other cells.  I have not read the study myself.

Takenaka T, et al. Fatty acids as an energy source for the operation of axoplasmic transport. Brain Res 2003; 972: 38-43


Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2008, 05:24:48 pm »

Takenaka T, et al. Fatty acids as an energy source for the operation of axoplasmic transport. Brain Res 2003; 972: 38-43



It could be very iteresting to read this study...

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Luigi

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2008, 07:52:08 pm »
Yesterday I ate my usual way:

- breakfast: 3 eggs + protein powder + 4 teaspoons of raw grinded coconut, a pear and a glass of veg juice and 25 g of raw butter
- lunch: a dish with 2 artichokes, some (little) salad and 5 very thin slices of roast beef with olive oil
- dinner: a little fennel (only the inner part), lard and some 500 g of beef
- after dinner: half a glass of wine

I didn't train.

Today I woke up and measured my pee pH (about 6.5) and ketones (none).
I have 2 hypothesis:
A - those little carbs where enough as not to kick in gluconeogenesys (no ketones produced)
B - since I am on low carb for a quite long period, I somehow "adapted" and used all the ketones produced (if we assume that, as Kyle suggests, some gluconeogesys and ketones production always occurs).

What's your opinion ?
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Luigi

Offline JustAnotherExplorer

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #79 on: November 07, 2008, 06:35:56 am »
AFAIK gluconeogenesis has nothing to do with the amount of ketones produced.  The end result of that process is glucose and you would need to be measuring your blood glucose levels to learn anything about that.  Take a look through Lex's well documented journal and you will see evidence of both his producing ketones at the same time as he is creating glucose from protein.

Lex produced many more ketones 80% fat routine than on his 65% fat routine.  It's impossible to estimate from the diet you've listed what the total amount of fat was that you consumed or what percent of your calories it was.  As I see it, it remains possible that you either a) are well adapted to using ketones for fuel and utilized all of the small amount that you created or b) consumed enough carbs that no ketones were created at all.  I realize that these are substantially similar to your options, but they do not mention gluconeogenesis.  I suspect, but by am no means certain, that you could discriminate between the two options by increasing your fat consumption while leaving the carb intake the same and keeping the protein content similar or slightly reduced.  If option A is accurate and you increase fat enough then you should see an increase in urinary ketones as more are created than you utilize.  If B is correct then you should not see any increase in ketones at all.

As I said, I'm not certain that the above scenarios accurately describe what would take place and why, but it is consistent with my current understanding of the biochemistry involved.

Offline Kristelle

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2008, 09:26:36 pm »
The brain can and does run on ketones, more efficiently, might I add. It cannot run on fatty acids because they are unable to cross the blood-brain barrier.

Offline wodgina

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2008, 10:42:20 pm »
How many carbs would you eat before/after a hard 2 hour long race Igi?
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Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2008, 11:02:17 pm »
Yes, I rode lex journal and made some consideration, indeed I realized that I was wrong or misunderstood something...

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Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2008, 11:11:18 pm »
How many carbs would you eat before/after a hard 2 hour long race Igi?

Sorry Andrew, but I'm not a good quantifier, I mosly do it empyrical and by instinct...

Anyway, I can tell you that:

1) It modstly depends on how adapted you are on running on fats (I recently knew a cyclists that needs about 100 g of carbs per hour, he is a very tough rider and aranks very well)
2) It depends on what exertion level you are going to do it (I'm not expert in running races, better on bike's)
3) Are you still doing zerocarb ?
4) What are your past experiences on carbo load/glycogen restore ?
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Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2008, 11:43:07 pm »
If I were you, Andrew, I would start carbo load 1 or 2 day before the event by introducing potoes and/or rice (or whatever carbo food you feel comfortable with). The time depending on your ability to metabolise corbos (it may take 2 day with small portions or 1 day with grater portions).

This is in order to assure you glycogen stores are full.
Be sure to be weel hydrated before the event start.
During the event you may use snacks, sport foods or simply fruits (I feel good with bananas) and drink (If the weatheer is very hot, you may put some salt in you drink in order to avoid hyponatremia).

After the event I use Friel/Cordains approach:
priority is recovery (repleniment of glycogen stores and rebuild of damaged muscle)
Immediately after (30 minutes window): easy digestable sources of glucose (honey is great, fruits, or whatever you like), and protein (or better amminoacids). Carbo to protein ratio is 4:1. The key here is to ingest nutrients that has not to be processed by the digestive system, not to stress the body anymore.
Then, the glycogen replenish takes place for a time span that is as long as the race duration (2 hors window for a 2 hour race) you can keep on eating carbs within your meals.

This is what I believe is right to manage races and hard workouts, this is what I (and others) do.
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Luigi

Offline wodgina

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2008, 06:35:31 am »
If I were you, Andrew, I would start carbo load 1 or 2 day before the event by introducing potoes and/or rice (or whatever carbo food you feel comfortable with). The time depending on your ability to metabolise corbos (it may take 2 day with small portions or 1 day with grater portions).

This is in order to assure you glycogen stores are full.
Be sure to be weel hydrated before the event start.
During the event you may use snacks, sport foods or simply fruits (I feel good with bananas) and drink (If the weatheer is very hot, you may put some salt in you drink in order to avoid hyponatremia).

After the event I use Friel/Cordains approach:
priority is recovery (repleniment of glycogen stores and rebuild of damaged muscle)
Immediately after (30 minutes window): easy digestable sources of glucose (honey is great, fruits, or whatever you like), and protein (or better amminoacids). Carbo to protein ratio is 4:1. The key here is to ingest nutrients that has not to be processed by the digestive system, not to stress the body anymore.
Then, the glycogen replenish takes place for a time span that is as long as the race duration (2 hors window for a 2 hour race) you can keep on eating carbs within your meals.

This is what I believe is right to manage races and hard workouts, this is what I (and others) do.

Thanks.I will try 100 grams a day for 2 days before and recover with carbs. I'll take your advice and see how I go.

Ok well I've already run the race on zero carb and I was running a a high anaerobic level for 1 hour and 50 minutes. The race was incredibly tough. The winner is an international professional athlete did 14km in 75 minutes which goes to show how tough the course was.

I like the Idea of being able to run this type of event aerobically but wonder if that is ever possible or how long it would take to be able to do this. To run this event aerobically it would of taken me 3+ hours!

I felt terrible during the race and craved carbs about half way through. I recovered very badly and could not think for about 20 minutes after the event. My brain had zero energy.

I will start to carbo load next time before I do a hard session. But I would also like to be able to run on fatty acids http://www.markallenonline.com/heartrate.asp...I'm torn and will have to try both.


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Offline Nicola

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2008, 10:07:16 pm »
Why don't you get in touch with "the bear"; he lives in Australia!

the-bear@thebear.org

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2008, 10:48:32 pm »
Thanks.I will try 100 grams a day for 2 days before and recover with carbs. I'll take your advice and see how I go.

Ok well I've already run the race on zero carb and I was running a a high anaerobic level for 1 hour and 50 minutes. The race was incredibly tough. The winner is an international professional athlete did 14km in 75 minutes which goes to show how tough the course was.

I like the Idea of being able to run this type of event aerobically but wonder if that is ever possible or how long it would take to be able to do this. To run this event aerobically it would of taken me 3+ hours!

I felt terrible during the race and craved carbs about half way through. I recovered very badly and could not think for about 20 minutes after the event. My brain had zero energy.

I will start to carbo load next time before I do a hard session. But I would also like to be able to run on fatty acids http://www.markallenonline.com/heartrate.asp...I'm torn and will have to try both.




Thank you very very much for this testimonial, Andrew.
This is the last piece of the puzzle: the proof that, even if one is ketoadapted (if my memory is good you are) it is impossible to practice strenuous physical activity (and a good recovery) on zerocarb.

I'm really sorry for all of the pure carnivores, but for people having athletic ambitions zerocarb is unpracticable. And Andrew's experience is another proof.

According to me even very low carb, without due recherge, is like a suicide when it comes to heavy physical activity.
Just to let you know, last Thursday, in the gym, I felt very good, I made my workout heavy workout, ùi felt good during it and it seemed like I could push it more, but I didn't...
I made no recharge after wo, and kept on very low carbing...

Get what...

I still didn't recover, I have such a pain in my legs that barely can walk, I look like a paralytic.

Never happened in this way with recharges.

Re the bear:
I tried to contact him but....
you can make you conclusions reading his reply, wich I posted.

Anyway...
Good luck for the race !!! ;) ;) ;) ;)
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline wodgina

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2008, 07:14:12 am »
Why don't you get in touch with "the bear"; he lives in Australia!

the-bear@thebear.org

'The bear' doesn't do strenuous non paleo exercise and I don't feel like being insulted either...

I would like to run on fatty acids to be honest as it makes sense but I'm not sure I will ever be able to do it. You have to run/cycle so slowly to keep in your aerobic zone that I may as well just walk. Supposedly with training you can run on fatty acids but an event which I competed in on the weekend my heart rate would of been between 180-210+ bpm

Halfway through the race my stomach was rumbling and I wanted food (even though I was running my heart out) this tells me I needed some quick fuel to resupply glycogen to my muscles. All tho pro's took on carbs at around this point but I kept running.

Hey Igi I think there are a few zero carb athletes on 'Charles's' forum. I wonder how they go? I love the idea of competing well on just meat and fat but I see it's practical to take on carbs during a long race.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

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Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2008, 06:06:08 pm »
'The bear' doesn't do strenuous non paleo exercise and I don't feel like being insulted either...

I would like to run on fatty acids to be honest as it makes sense but I'm not sure I will ever be able to do it. You have to run/cycle so slowly to keep in your aerobic zone that I may as well just walk. Supposedly with training you can run on fatty acids but an event which I competed in on the weekend my heart rate would of been between 180-210+ bpm

Halfway through the race my stomach was rumbling and I wanted food (even though I was running my heart out) this tells me I needed some quick fuel to resupply glycogen to my muscles. All tho pro's took on carbs at around this point but I kept running.

Hey Igi I think there are a few zero carb athletes on 'Charles's' forum. I wonder how they go? I love the idea of competing well on just meat and fat but I see it's practical to take on carbs during a long race.

I believe that race/train strenuously for a long duration only on fats is pure utopy.
Those situation are non physiological, so they have to be treated accordingly.

Andrew, I don't know "Charles's forum" can you post a link ?
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline JustAnotherExplorer

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2008, 07:23:49 pm »

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2008, 06:42:27 pm »
I took a look at the forum/blog.

Weel, in my opinion the situation is as usual: Charles as well, seems to train 1 every 3-4 days.
Another proof that on ZC recovery is so longer.

Again, I believe that to train consistently some carbs are needed, the amount depending on training volume.
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline Jeff

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2008, 12:16:31 am »
I took a look at the forum/blog.

Weel, in my opinion the situation is as usual: Charles as well, seems to train 1 every 3-4 days.
Another proof that on ZC recovery is so longer.

Again, I believe that to train consistently some carbs are needed, the amount depending on training volume.
While Charles does only run twice per week, he also lifts weights twice per week.  He does acknowledge more recovery time is required, but he also firmly believes that running twice per week is all that is necessary.  Training smarter, not harder.  Charles always finishes in the top 10-15% in his races.  And he usually runs in races that have several thousand runners.  Not bad, I'd say.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2008, 12:39:04 am »
While Charles does only run twice per week, he also lifts weights twice per week.  He does acknowledge more recovery time is required, but he also firmly believes that running twice per week is all that is necessary.  Training smarter, not harder.  Charles always finishes in the top 10-15% in his races.  And he usually runs in races that have several thousand runners.  Not bad, I'd say.

What about an athlete in a sport like wrestling, very anaerobic? Has anyone ever tried something like that on zero carb? My experience has been that even highly trained athletes fatigue (aerobically) more in 5 or 10 minutes of something like that than hours of running or biking, and you're muscles start to weaken (anaerobically) in a matter of less than a minute if you're constantly pushing against an immovable object (wrestling).

Offline Sully

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2008, 01:24:58 am »
What about an athlete in a sport like wrestling, very anaerobic? Has anyone ever tried something like that on zero carb? My experience has been that even highly trained athletes fatigue (aerobically) more in 5 or 10 minutes of something like that than hours of running or biking, and you're muscles start to weaken (anaerobically) in a matter of less than a minute if you're constantly pushing against an immovable object (wrestling).
Like isometrics?

Offline Guittarman03

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2008, 01:53:15 pm »
I did almost zero carbs for 4-6 weeks.  No more than 5-15 grams a day, which is basically a few strawberries and maybe a small tomato.  Some days I did no carbs at all.  I lift 3-5 days a week, sprints usually once a week, and I play D-line in IM football.  When I do any type of running I make sure to punctuate at regular intervals with anaerobic exercise. 

It worked out okay at first.  I sort of started right after a brutal work-out.  The next couple days I was constantly hungy, eating (per day) 20-25 eggs, at least 2 lbs of beef, some coconut-oil, and just a very few carbs.  I gained tremendously in a short 3 days.  The results propelled me to give zero carb a try.

But after a couple weeks I started to notice some negative changes.  First off, my breath began to smell bad.  Then I noticed I wasn't gaining really anymore in the gym, and in fact, tended to be losing strength and began to shorten my workouts.  After a few weeks my stomach felt like it was beginning to 'back up', though I was not yet in pain. 

I gave work-outs a rest for a few days, but came home on day 3 feeling terrible.  No fever (yet) but my whole digestive system felt clogged and body achy.  I had the biggest craving for sugars, so I ate alot of raw honey, rasperries, coconut oil, and a few eggs.  I immediately began to feel better (alot like the feeling after a good meal after a big workout).  I was getting sleepy, and ultimately had fever most of the night.  I had some diahhrea, and woke up 3 times to use the crapper, each time feeling better.  By morning I felt MUCH better.  No more fever, and no more diahhrea, though the bowl issues did take a couple weeks to completely clear up.  I still was on very low carb for the next 2 weeks, tho not quite as low, and felt better but still not tip top.

Earlier I mentioned bad breath.  About a week after that night, I went to the dentist (regular checkup), and for the first time in my life, I had a cavity.  In fact, I had 3 black spots on my back molars.   

Near the end of all this, I read a book [The Schwarzbein Principle II] which analyzes diet almost solely from the perspective of the endocrine(glandular) system.  While I disagree w/ much of what she recoommends (alot isn't paleo based), she convinced me that I needed more carbs.  I started eating a bell pepper/tomato/mushroom/peppers/spinach w/ my daily 1.5-2 lb of beef, some papaya/berries/coconut water/etc.  Immediately my breath got better, and despite what the dentist said is possible, the 3 black spots on my teeth began to shrink.  I only have 1 left, and it is rather small. 

I probably eat now between 70-120 grams of carbs/day.  I most definitely will eat a papaya or berries before a workout, and after most 2 hour lifting sessions (which I can regularly do nowadays) I will drink a strawberry/raw egg/honey/goats milk shake for recovery.  I believe my body is probably getting most of its energy from fats, but using carbs during strenuous exercise. 

I'm all about going with what works, and for myself, I have proven that zero carbs doesn't work.  Also, we have genetics to consider.  If you are Inuit or Northern European, it is likely you might be able to get away with fewer carbs.  If your heritage is from more southern latitudes (like the 1/2 Mexican in me), the simple fact is berries taste good, coconut water tastes good, fruit/herbs taste good.  We would definitely have eaten them during our evolutionary history, in addition to bugs which can contain quite a few carbs.  As an aside, I would imagine women to get along better with a few more carbs than men, as they would likely have been the 'gatherers' eating more foraging type foods - just a thought.

       
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 02:14:16 pm by Guittarman03 »
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline Sully

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #96 on: November 15, 2008, 12:25:51 am »
has anyone seen the persistence hunting video that David Attenburough narrated?

There is hunter gatherers in Africa deserts that do persistence hunting. They find a herd, then pick out the one with the biggest antlers/horns, because it will tire faster. Then they follow it in a persistence hunt. Soon they send off there fastest runner by himself. He is equipped with a spear on his back, and a container filled with water to rehydrate. He follows it for a long time with a slow jog. The animal tries to rest under trees for shade because of the intense heat of the desert.  But soon has to run again because the man follows. The mans ability to sweat becomes handy.The man, being bipedal is more suited for endurance running, than the four legged animal. Soon the animal collapses due to exhaustion. He then spears it, and does a little ceremony with sand.

It would be interesting to see exactly what these people consume. I think it varies from mostly plants, to mostly animal foods. In the dry season when nuts run out, meat becomes the most important food.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 12:29:28 am by Sully »

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2008, 03:15:19 am »
Like isometrics?

No, like wrestling. Actually my sports are Brazilian jiu jit su and mixed martial arts but most people aren't too familiar with them.

Offline igibike

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2008, 09:33:45 pm »
While Charles does only run twice per week, he also lifts weights twice per week.  He does acknowledge more recovery time is required, but he also firmly believes that running twice per week is all that is necessary.  Training smarter, not harder.  Charles always finishes in the top 10-15% in his races.  And he usually runs in races that have several thousand runners.  Not bad, I'd say.

In the races I got involved so far I got similar results (10-15% in the rank). I try to train smart as well. So the difficult management of a zero carb (for different reasons) keeps me off.

I did almost zero carbs for 4-6 weeks.  No more than 5-15 grams a day, which is basically a few strawberries and maybe a small tomato.  Some days I did no carbs at all.  I lift 3-5 days a week, sprints usually once a week, and I play D-line in IM football.  When I do any type of running I make sure to punctuate at regular intervals with anaerobic exercise. 

It worked out okay at first.  I sort of started right after a brutal work-out.  The next couple days I was constantly hungy, eating (per day) 20-25 eggs, at least 2 lbs of beef, some coconut-oil, and just a very few carbs.  I gained tremendously in a short 3 days.  The results propelled me to give zero carb a try.

But after a couple weeks I started to notice some negative changes.  First off, my breath began to smell bad.  Then I noticed I wasn't gaining really anymore in the gym, and in fact, tended to be losing strength and began to shorten my workouts.  After a few weeks my stomach felt like it was beginning to 'back up', though I was not yet in pain. 

I gave work-outs a rest for a few days, but came home on day 3 feeling terrible.  No fever (yet) but my whole digestive system felt clogged and body achy.  I had the biggest craving for sugars, so I ate alot of raw honey, rasperries, coconut oil, and a few eggs.  I immediately began to feel better (alot like the feeling after a good meal after a big workout).  I was getting sleepy, and ultimately had fever most of the night.  I had some diahhrea, and woke up 3 times to use the crapper, each time feeling better.  By morning I felt MUCH better.  No more fever, and no more diahhrea, though the bowl issues did take a couple weeks to completely clear up.  I still was on very low carb for the next 2 weeks, tho not quite as low, and felt better but still not tip top.

Earlier I mentioned bad breath.  About a week after that night, I went to the dentist (regular checkup), and for the first time in my life, I had a cavity.  In fact, I had 3 black spots on my back molars.   

Near the end of all this, I read a book [The Schwarzbein Principle II] which analyzes diet almost solely from the perspective of the endocrine(glandular) system.  While I disagree w/ much of what she recoommends (alot isn't paleo based), she convinced me that I needed more carbs.  I started eating a bell pepper/tomato/mushroom/peppers/spinach w/ my daily 1.5-2 lb of beef, some papaya/berries/coconut water/etc.  Immediately my breath got better, and despite what the dentist said is possible, the 3 black spots on my teeth began to shrink.  I only have 1 left, and it is rather small. 

I probably eat now between 70-120 grams of carbs/day.  I most definitely will eat a papaya or berries before a workout, and after most 2 hour lifting sessions (which I can regularly do nowadays) I will drink a strawberry/raw egg/honey/goats milk shake for recovery.  I believe my body is probably getting most of its energy from fats, but using carbs during strenuous exercise. 

I'm all about going with what works, and for myself, I have proven that zero carbs doesn't work.  Also, we have genetics to consider.  If you are Inuit or Northern European, it is likely you might be able to get away with fewer carbs.  If your heritage is from more southern latitudes (like the 1/2 Mexican in me), the simple fact is berries taste good, coconut water tastes good, fruit/herbs taste good.  We would definitely have eaten them during our evolutionary history, in addition to bugs which can contain quite a few carbs.  As an aside, I would imagine women to get along better with a few more carbs than men, as they would likely have been the 'gatherers' eating more foraging type foods - just a thought.

       

Similar result keeping carb below a certain level, so I made the same conclusions as guittarman. As far as I know  my descendance is from italian farmers.

Kyle, I guess the reason muscles fatigue quicker anaerobically is that after ATP depletion, energy is needed to resithetise it.
Resithesys may happen aerobically (slower, requires oxygen to burn fat) o anaerobically (faster, oxygen not required). Performing anaerobically we quick fall in oxygen debt, and that kiks anaerobical glucose burning. But glucose/glycogen stores are limeted, that's why we stop earlier.
That's what I know and so far what I experienced to be true.
Bye bye

Luigi

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: How many carbs do you need?
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2008, 09:55:15 pm »
I know about that, my question is that would a low carb diet (or no carb) cause you to be able to rebuild your glucose stores faster, or perhaps use a different fuel altogether, or are we looking at a situation where low carb gives you good long term energy but not short anaerobic energy as good as moderate to high carbs? It seems like most agree that on low carb the anaerobic capacity goes down and aerobic capacity goes up, and this goes along with the idea of persistence hunters chasing down prey and eating only animals.

 

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