Author Topic: drinking milk and dying earlier  (Read 5629 times)

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Offline PaganGoy

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2019, 04:33:29 pm »
There are sources to support the claims made by ajanous regarding bone health and so on in this free pdf

https://www.wewant2live.com/shop/petition-and-report-in-favor-of-natural-milk-pdf/

Offline van

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 04:55:32 am »
'fifty percent of the calcium in milk is cauterized when past...'   where does he get that number?   Are there labs on this report?   AV repeatedly made similar claims without ever showing where he got the information.  Since most of us know the word cauterized from movies or stories about how in years past wounds were cauterized on say a battlefield, the image/word carries weight and emotional strength. 
   Until I ever see any conclusive proof backing up these claims AV makes, I will simply repeat my claims that AV made up anything to back up his beliefs.  And suggest to others here to suspect the same. 
  Also question his statement that cream is the ONLY,  I repeat ONLY fat that nutrifies the brain and nervous system.  Come on think about this statement in the context of those peoples who don't keep cows.    Again, 'we' want so badly to believe him because we want so badly to have the Answer.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 04:27:43 pm »
They can "target" whatever they want. They base their whole analysis on survey data from various countries according to the comparative levels of consumption of cooked dairy. It's not me who has to prove that raw dairy wouldn't cause any problems. That's not how science works.
All this is solid evidence against dairy with multiple studies, not just surveys. By contrast, all we have are a few studies showing that raw dairy may be helpful against  asthma in some cases. Pathetic, really.
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Gotcha. So meat is very different when going from raw to cooked, but dairy isn't, because you hate dairy.
  I had simply pointd out the obvious that meat is not the same thing as dairy, whether raw or cooked.
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And the meat of a deer is meant to help the deer run around. What's that got to do with anything?
  A foolish analogy  as meat is not the same thing as raw dairy. Or to use your lack of logic ad absurdum, the leg of a deer would be useless for another species to graft on in place of a missing limb as the immune system would react against it, causing rejection of tissue, among many other health-problems.
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It's only absurd to you because you didn't understand it. All you can do is name a few species from animals of a completely different class. 
   
  Another false claim. For one thing it has been pointed out that the reason for why feral children raised by wolves could not happen in real-life is because  wolves`milk is toxic for human infants, due to excess casein in it. Also, online it has been reported that sheep, goats and chimps that are fed cows’ milk sometimes develop leukemia.

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How does that make them unscientific? Again, I think you don't understand what something being unscientific means. In fact it's you who is using unscientific reasoning by claiming to have proven that raw dairy is harmful because some people have some evidence to suggest cooked dairy might be.
  It is unscientific because cats were used not humans in the test. Cats are not humans Indeed, the thalidomide crisis was caused by the fact that the scientists were wrongly reassured by more positive tests done on animals. And the studies I mentioned did NOT focus on the issue of raw vs pasteurised but on the issue of excess calcium. Ironically, since pasteurisation makes calcium less absorbable in the body than with raw dairy, raw dairy is clearly worse as regards the excess calcium issue.
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This has nothing to do with "scientific rigor". Nobody is arguing that a diet of pure dairy is superior to other diets. That would be like telling someone who claims that some salt is healthy to put test animals on a 100% salt diet, with no other nutrients being fed to them.
  Well, that is at least something. You accept that raw dairy is not a complete food, like meat is, and is harmful  as 100% of the diet.
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The studies showed basically the same result on 2/3 dairy as 1/3 dairy.
  Wrong. The meat study showed that even including raw dairy as 1/3 of  a diet including cooked meat was not enough to counter the ill-health effects of cooked meat. Pretty useless, really.
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No, it was after. And in any case, they wouldn't have been fed dairy on a regular basis. Their feed was primarily the rodents and birds they'd catch, which is why they were kept around in the first place. They weren't pets.
  Complete bollocks. Cats were kept as pets for countless millenia and were fed by humans on the foods that humans themselves ate, including raw dairy. I could cite ancient egypt as an example, but keeping cats as pets not rodent-catchers goes WAY further back. Incidentally, you should know that human rat-catchers use terriers, not cats, for hunting rats as cats are not very good at hunting rats.
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You keep reading whatever you want into what I say. I didn't say there is more difference between a cat and a human than between a human and a cow. I said there's more difference in dygestive abilities between a cat an a cow, than between a human and a cow.
   Irrelevant, really. What we need to convince you is a study of cats fed on cat milk compared to cats fed on cows milk, all raw.
[/quote]
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That's because you're misunderstanding the actual goal of the breeding. Intelligence isn't always the best trait to have, just like for humans, it doesn't matter that much if cows aren't in perfect health, as long as they give us better health. Also, many of these problems are due to these animals being fed unnatural diets in modern times.
  It matters a great deal. If an animal is in bad health, then the meat, and especially, the milk will be harmful. For example, I have heard of mothers transmitting diseases to their babies via their breastmilk.
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Designed by who? God? Because if so, well then God probably also designed us with the ability to farm cattle and get their milk. If you mean designed by natural selection, well then again, we've selected the cows to give us better milk for us, too.
  Wrong again, human breeding, or rather inbreeding for dysgenic traits, is not the same as natural selection. It is wholly unnatural. Like we see with cooking, unnatural processes are harmful to human health.
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I didn't say it doesn't differ. Btw, in that link it kinda looks like they're not very different at all. Definitely way more similar to each other than all the other milks from all the other mammals around.

Also, keep in mind that the selection of cow milk may not be to suit the needs of baby humans the best, but adult humans.
  Cows milk is a ruminant milk. To get healthier milk, one would have to drink chimpanzee milk as a human. As regards babies,  most humans gradually develop more and more lactose intolerance over time as adults, as adult mammals are not supposed to be drinkng milk, however raw, past infancy.
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Looking at people's teeth is quick and easy, and through his studies he found that this correlated to general health in peoples whom he had studied more in deph. Also, look at Pottenger's studies again. Tooth decay corresponds with all the other health problems caused by the cooked foods diet.
  Tooth decay is also mainly caused by excess sugar and processed foods. So the absence of such foods, rather than the raw dairy is the most likely cause for good dental health. I am suspicious of WP as he was very selective in his photos. I mean, given a lack of dentists and the incidence of disease and famine, it is impossible for more than a few HGs to have had perfect teeth throughout their lives.
[/quote]
They were also stronger than modern day hunter gatherers. There's many other reasons to explain this, rather than simply blame dairy. They were cooking more of their foods, for starters, even if they weren't eating much grains.[/quote]  It at least shows that raw dairy is so useless as a health-food that it cannot counteract the consumption of cooked animal foods.
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Not really. Bread and other grains and legumes have always been associated with the poor. In the middle ages the nobility would use bread as a plate to serve food in, they didn't eat it, they just gave it to the poor to eat after the meal.
This is simply not true. Poor people would poach wild animals to get meat. They would also seek out frogs legs and raw oysters and lobsters  and wild mushrooms, all of which were deemed disgusting poor-man`s food centuries ago.  And upper classes did indeed eat bread as a staple.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 04:54:26 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 04:57:05 pm »
AV was a fraud to a partial extent. When challenged, he made up claims about doing a multitude of studies showing how healthy raw animal foods were, and when asked to produce them, claimed they had all been burned in  a fire.  I mean, this is a guy who borrowed from the bible( re 40 days and 40 nights in the desert!).
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 12:39:15 am »
All this is solid evidence against dairy with multiple studies, not just surveys.

Epidemiological studies are pretty much the same as surveys.

And again, it's all from cooked dairy consumption.

By contrast, all we have are a few studies showing that raw dairy may be helpful against  asthma in some cases. Pathetic, really.

No. Pottenger's studies clearly proved that raw dairy is health giving while cooked dairy harms health and causes all sorts of disease and degradation, which intensifies with each generation. You can say it's only so for cats, and not humans, but you can't say cooked and raw are the same.

Or to use your lack of logic ad absurdum, the leg of a deer would be useless for another species to graft on in place of a missing limb as the immune system would react against it, causing rejection of tissue, among many other health-problems. 

Lol? We are talking about food consumption, not grafts and transplants.

Another false claim. For one thing it has been pointed out that the reason for why feral children raised by wolves could not happen in real-life is because  wolves`milk is toxic for human infants, due to excess casein in it. Also, online it has been reported that sheep, goats and chimps that are fed cows’ milk sometimes develop leukemia.

Pretty irrelevant. But in any case, was this cooked dairy?

As for the casein and wolves milk, that's just a hypothesis with no backing. I also believe the story of children raised by wolves is likely fake, but not for that reason.

It is unscientific because cats were used not humans in the test. Cats are not humans Indeed, the thalidomide crisis was caused by the fact that the scientists were wrongly reassured by more positive tests done on animals.

Nobody claims that cats are humans. Pottenger certainly never did. It is interesting, however, how you bring up animal studies when they suit your biases, but discard them when they don't.

And the studies I mentioned did NOT focus on the issue of raw vs pasteurised but on the issue of excess calcium.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. "focus" is irrelevant when all the source data is coming from populations consuming cooked dairy only.

Ironically, since pasteurisation makes calcium less absorbable in the body than with raw dairy, raw dairy is clearly worse as regards the excess calcium issue. 

Are you now saying that raw dairy is worse for health than cooked dairy?

Well, that is at least something. You accept that raw dairy is not a complete food, like meat is, and is harmful  as 100% of the diet.

Not harmful, insufficient. Some people think drinking water is good for health. It would be ludicrous to propose that they show a 100% water diet is good.

Wrong. The meat study showed that even including raw dairy as 1/3 of  a diet including cooked meat was not enough to counter the ill-health effects of cooked meat. Pretty useless, really.

The studies showed that cooked milk causes disease and degeneration while raw milk prevents disease and slowly cures it and regenerates health.

  Complete bollocks. Cats were kept as pets for countless millenia and were fed by humans on the foods that humans themselves ate, including raw dairy. I could cite ancient egypt as an example, but keeping cats as pets not rodent-catchers goes WAY further back. Incidentally, you should know that human rat-catchers use terriers, not cats, for hunting rats as cats are not very good at hunting rats. 

Cats were not domesticated to be kept as pets. People back then were much more practical. If they kept an animal around, there was a material, tangible goal to it. The whole notion of keeping a pet for its own sake didn't develop in great numbers until the 19th century, and it didn't affect the masses until the 20th century .

   It matters a great deal. If an animal is in bad health, then the meat, and especially, the milk will be harmful.

Sure. but if the animal's health is only a little bit worse, but you get much more healthgiving milk out of it, then it could very well be worth the tradeoff.

Wrong again, human breeding, or rather inbreeding for dysgenic traits, is not the same as natural selection.

I didn't say its the same thing. However, there is the possibility that it's even better in some cases. For instance, do you prefer to eat wild leaves with their high toxicity, or domesticated varieties where breeding has significantly lowered the toxin loads?

It is wholly unnatural. Like we see with cooking, unnatural processes are harmful to human health. 

By that definition all human activities are unnatural, including hunting wild game. It's not simply the being natural or artificial that makes something improve our health or damage it. It's a little more complicated than that.

Tooth decay is also mainly caused by excess sugar and processed foods. So the absence of such foods, rather than the raw dairy is the most likely cause for good dental health.

Again, Pottenger's studies showed that no, cooked dairy helps cause tooth decay whereas raw dairy does the opposite.

This is simply not true. Poor people would poach wild animals to get meat. They would also seek out frogs legs and raw oysters and lobsters  and wild mushrooms, all of which were deemed disgusting poor-man`s food centuries ago.

I didn't say they ate no meats. But they ate plenty of grain. Keep in mind that the best quality meat, such as wild deer, was only for the rich.

And upper classes did indeed eat bread as a staple.

No.

We now live in a world where medicine destroys health, law destroys justice, education destroys knowledge, government destroys order, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and banking destroys the economy

Offline PaganGoy

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2019, 04:37:47 am »
@van
quote
" The cream in it is the only fat that ***completely*** nutrifies the brain and nervous system. Butter can do it about two thirds, but raw cream and milk does it 100%."

In the short time I have looked into AV I have seen far more misquotes targeted toward him then accurate ones.

Offline van

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2019, 07:43:39 am »
Ok,' completely'.   No matter, still the same delusion.

Offline Grey-Cup

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2019, 12:36:25 am »
Im curious about your total daily macro intake norawnofun? This is an impressive number of calories from dairy alone. What else do you eat and how often do you train?

Since I eat a lot of raw dairy and find it very important for my wellbeing, I started to look at the calcium issue that you posted in this link. http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm It is indeed very interesting. Then I had a look at the recommended daily calcium intake, which seems to be 1000-1200mg per day, which equals around a liter of raw milk per day http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/calcium.html.

Whenever I am abroad I drink a liter of raw cows milk from (IMO) predominantly older A2 breeds with every meat meal, which means 2-3 times a day. Sometimes I drink more in between. To each meal I eat around 250 grams of raw cheese. So to summarize I have 3 liters of milk, plus 750g of cheese. So my daily calcium intake is 1200mgx3 + another lets say 1200x3 from the cheese. = 7200mg daily intake. When I am at home, I have less goat dairy but it seems that the calcium content is higher, so i might have a similar intake. Considering the fact that milk has vitamin D in it, the absorption should be ok. Then comes the calcium to phosphorus ratio (Ca/P), cows milk seems to be slightly higher than goat http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/05/is-milk-good-sheep-milk-dairy/. More on that below. Either way, thinking about it I have a extremely high daily calcium intake, so I thought if I should be concerned. But then I had a look at this:

https://www.atkins.com/how-it-works/library/articles/calcium-protein-strong-bones

And here https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/calcium-and-milk/calcium-full-story/

I found quite some people which do a carnivore diet and eat/drink lots of raw dairy, and it seems to do them very well, like me. They heal all kinds of things. Now when looking at the above one could possibly conclude that a carnivore diet, which consists of a very high intake of animal protein, needs a very good amount of calcium to counterbalance the calcium excretion by eating a good amount of raw dairy or animal foods high in calcium.

So basically one could think that a high raw dairy intake on carnivore is no problem, but it is a problem when you eat a normal low animal protein diet, like many "normal" people do, as the general consent is that animal protein is unhealthy and vegetables, whole grains and fruit are better. Then you might be in trouble. None of the links posted from some of you take a high animal protein diet such as carnivore into account. So then it´s normal that many westerners drink lots of milk, but then have big issues like osteoporosis later, because of low meat consuption, as I think that vegetables are useless for calcium intake.

And if you now say that there is no different between raw milk and pasteurized milk in terms of (Ca/P) ratio and absorption, I recommend looking into this study: http://www.jbc.org/content/79/1/283.full.pdf There are, for example, HUGE differences between dried and raw milk. I also noticed that when I eat pasteurized joghurt, my bones sometimes crack, and I get tartar. So there is no way that somebody can tell me that raw milk and heat-treated milk is the same. So all these amazing studies showing how bad milk can in my optinion, be thrown in the trash!

Offline ys

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2019, 08:23:14 am »
A little off topic.
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Offline van

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2019, 10:27:57 am »
what?  how round they are

Offline norawnofun

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2019, 03:47:54 am »
Im curious about your total daily macro intake norawnofun? This is an impressive number of calories from dairy alone. What else do you eat and how often do you train?

I never track my macros, don´t care much about that tbh. I do almost daily simple youtube exercise, no proper work-out. No time really. During my half a year carnivore experiment (still counting) I was eating meats such as beef, chicken and home cured bacon. Plus eggs, raw goat cheese and raw goat milk mainly, plus joghurt if i didnt have raw dairy. I stopped lamb. I did a 2 day water fast now, broke it today with beef, lard and an egg. The goal is to no longer do dairy until my stomach acid is back to how it was years ago. I noticed that digestion was easier without dairy today, time will tell. I´m also curious about my tartar, if that will go away. I got a lot when I ate pasteurized joghurt. Another issue was the goat dairy, it used to do me well initially, but cow dairy is way better for me. Goat milk is more alkaline, I think that was the problem as I drank it with every acidic meat meal. Plus, AV used to say that goat milk is good for obese and sluggish people, and cow is for underweight and kinda nervous ppl. In my case he was right about that. Plus its not fatty enough. Therefore I concluded goat is useless to me, for vegans it might be a good addition to their plant based diet but not for me.

The plan is incorporate more steaks, since I always ate ground due to low HCI, have more tougher meats and try liver and bone marrow (raw) again. And have butter plus hard cheeses (since some like parmigiano romano contain 0 carbs) I want my stomach acid to be top notch again. And I think the carbs in dairy was hindering that. Used to have issues with butter, but no longer I found. I think the carnivore diet gave me back certain things to digest saturated fats again.



Offline van

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2019, 08:33:10 am »
chew your steaks till liquid.  Enjoy the process.  Also, as mentioned, get a really sharp knife and wetstone to sharpen as you go, and slice as thin as possible, as you chew and eat fat during the meal.  Thinly sliced meat has a better chance of becoming liquid in the mouth and tastes excellent stimulating digestive juices in the stomach.   
    Never ate lard ( rendered fat ). So can't say it will be a hindrance, but experiment, it may cause some sluggishness for raw folks.

Offline norawnofun

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2019, 04:26:39 pm »
@van I am chewing as much as I can, taking it easy till my body says stop. I notice that my stomach is working more and my (i think) pancreas are much more active. Did you notice any dairy withdrawal/detox symptoms like eye discarge, red skin and so forth? And how long did they last? I plan to get into keto and see how that feels. I am still not sure if to drink with meals or not.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2019, 11:11:03 pm »
Epidemiological studies are pretty much the same as surveys.

And again, it's all from cooked dairy consumption.
I already pointed out that  the issue was poor bone-health caused by excess calcium consumption, the issue of raw vs cooked is not just irrelevant here, it is bogus. You see, the calcium in raw dairy is far more absorbable than with pasteurised dairy, thus making raw dairy far MORE likely to cause poor bone-health than pasteurised dairy.
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No. Pottenger's studies clearly proved that raw dairy is health giving while cooked dairy harms health and causes all sorts of disease and degradation, which intensifies with each generation. You can say it's only so for cats, and not humans, but you can't say cooked and raw are the same.
Wrong again.  I had already pointed out re Pottenger`s meat study that the inclusion of raw dairy did not counteract the presence of cooked animal food given in the test as well. If raw dairy were genuinely healthy to cats, then one would have expected some evidence that raw dairy could counteract the effects a lot.
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Lol? We are talking about food consumption, not grafts and transplants.
Your absurd contrast was simply countered by my taking the piss as well. Anyway, the point is that raw dairy of whatever kind is designed specifically to feed the infants of one particular species. As we see re humans, adults gradually lose the ability to digest lactose as they get older, anyway, so that is another factor. Raw cows`dairy is best for calves below the age of weaning and that is that.

Quote
Pretty irrelevant. But in any case, was this cooked dairy? 
    http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=120246 Yes, it was from raw cows milk. Pasteurisation kills the stuff.



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Nobody claims that cats are humans. Pottenger certainly never did.
  Pottenger  implied it, and you made all sorts of bogus claims that cats were just like humans.
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I don't know how many times I have to say this. "focus" is irrelevant when all the source data is coming from populations consuming cooked dairy only.
  The issue of raw vs cooked is only 1 issue among many. In this case, the focus is on excessive calcium. Now since calcium from raw dairy is more absorbable than from pasteurised dairy due to lack of heat, one can convincingly argue that raw dairy does not provide good bone-health at all, given the various studies. That is, so far, no evidence shows that pasteurising dairy makes the calcium in it  highly toxic in particular , to bone-health.
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Are you now saying that raw dairy is worse for health than cooked dairy?
  In this one instance, re excess calcium, yes.


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The studies showed that cooked milk causes disease and degeneration while raw milk prevents disease and slowly cures it and regenerates health.
  Wrong. The studies showed that including raw dairy did not counter the negative effects of cooked animal food.
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Cats were not domesticated to be kept as pets. People back then were much more practical. If they kept an animal around, there was a material, tangible goal to it. The whole notion of keeping a pet for its own sake didn't develop in great numbers until the 19th century, and it didn't affect the masses until the 20th century .
  That is, of course, nonsense, as cats were kept as pets in ancient egypt and there is solid evidence for cats being kept as pets 1000s of years before that:-  https://myria.com/animals-when-were-cats-first-kept-as-pets
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Sure. but if the animal's health is only a little bit worse, but you get much more healthgiving milk out of it, then it could very well be worth the tradeoff.
    You are, as usual, missing the point. If the raw milk is even slightly infected,  well, it`s very easy to get infections from raw dairy. Not worth the risk.
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I didn't say its the same thing. However, there is the possibility that it's even better in some cases. For instance, do you prefer to eat wild leaves with their high toxicity, or domesticated varieties where breeding has significantly lowered the toxin loads?
  No, human dysgenics has always been a bad idea. Humans do not eat raw leaves as a staple of their diets so that example is bogus. Also, the excess sugar in domesticated fruits is bad for us whereas wild varieties have far less sugar so do not contribute to obesity, diabetes etc.
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By that definition all human activities are unnatural, including hunting wild game. It's not simply the being natural or artificial that makes something improve our health or damage it. It's a little more complicated than that.
  Grossly wrong example as hunting wild game is perfectly natural - our palaeo ancestors did it, so do many other wild species
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Again, Pottenger's studies showed that no, cooked dairy helps cause tooth decay whereas raw dairy does the opposite.
  Wrong. Taken from skeptvet:-  "Yes, Pottenger’s study comes up often in discussions of raw diets. Though not bad for his era, his work with the cats is pretty sloppy by modern standards, and there is not enough information in his published writings to determine crucial things like whether there were differences other than cooking between the food the two groups received, whether the groups of cats themselves were different in terms of condition, health, age, sex, and all sorts of other relevant variables. And even from the information that is out there, it is clear that neither group received an adequate diet, especially in terms of taurine, not discovered to be an essential amino acid for cats until after Pottenger’s time. So his work cannot legitimately be regarded as scientific evidence in favor of raw diets, though it is often cited as such."
Quote
 

No.
Easily disproven with links:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_dining_in_the_Roman_Empire (most Romans would have eaten 70 percent at least of their diet in the form of cereals and beans.

https://healthandfitnesshistory.com/ancient-nutrition/medieval-european-nutrition/ shows that upper classes also ate lots of grains, and so on and on.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2019, 12:29:32 am »
I already pointed out that  the issue was poor bone-health caused by excess calcium consumption, the issue of raw vs cooked is not just irrelevant here, it is bogus. You see, the calcium in raw dairy is far more absorbable than with pasteurised dairy, thus making raw dairy far MORE likely to cause poor bone-health than pasteurised dairy.

  The issue of raw vs cooked is only 1 issue among many. In this case, the focus is on excessive calcium. Now since calcium from raw dairy is more absorbable than from pasteurised dairy due to lack of heat, one can convincingly argue that raw dairy does not provide good bone-health at all, given the various studies. That is, so far, no evidence shows that pasteurising dairy makes the calcium in it  highly toxic in particular , to bone-health.

How dumb can you get? We've been through this time and again, you can say whatever you want is "the issue" or "the focus", but when all you can show is a correlation between cooked dairy consumption and bone problems, that in no way implicates raw dairy.

Wrong. The studies showed that including raw dairy did not counter the negative effects of cooked animal food.

Quite the opposite.

  That is, of course, nonsense, as cats were kept as pets in ancient egypt and there is solid evidence for cats being kept as pets 1000s of years before that:-  https://myria.com/animals-when-were-cats-first-kept-as-pets

It seems you don't understand the difference between pet keeping and domestication. Cows are domesticated animals, but they're not pets. Likewise, whoever wrote the study is calling cats "pets" with no evidence whatsoever that they would be considered pets. In fact in the article itself it mentions that people kept cats not as pets, but as a means to control rodent infestation. Which makes sense because mice are primarily grain eaters, and ancient egypt and china were the first big mostly grain fed societies.

Wrong. Taken from skeptvet:-  "Yes, Pottenger’s study comes up often in discussions of raw diets. Though not bad for his era, his work with the cats is pretty sloppy by modern standards, and there is not enough information in his published writings to determine crucial things like whether there were differences other than cooking between the food the two groups received, whether the groups of cats themselves were different in terms of condition, health, age, sex, and all sorts of other relevant variables. And even from the information that is out there, it is clear that neither group received an adequate diet, especially in terms of taurine, not discovered to be an essential amino acid for cats until after Pottenger’s time. So his work cannot legitimately be regarded as scientific evidence in favor of raw diets, though it is often cited as such."

That's written by people who will tell you to feed your pets dry pellets of processed food. The foods were the same whether raw or cooked, so the issue IS cooking, and whatever "nutritional deficiencies" cats had on the cooked diet were caused by the cooking, not by eating different foods. Likewise, cats were selected at random for each group, so keeping track of age, sex, health condition and so forth is irrelevant as it would even out over the 900 cats that were used for the experiments.


Easily disproven with links:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_dining_in_the_Roman_Empire (most Romans would have eaten 70 percent at least of their diet in the form of cereals and beans.

https://healthandfitnesshistory.com/ancient-nutrition/medieval-european-nutrition/ shows that upper classes also ate lots of grains, and so on and on.

The romans were a decadent, degenerate society, so it could be that they were foolish enough to prefer grain over meat. In medieval europe, however, meat was regarded as the superior food. Even your own link mentions that people didn't eat more meat than they normally did because it was expensive, and not due to a concern about health.
We now live in a world where medicine destroys health, law destroys justice, education destroys knowledge, government destroys order, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and banking destroys the economy

Offline van

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2019, 02:17:46 am »
@van I am chewing as much as I can, taking it easy till my body says stop. I notice that my stomach is working more and my (i think) pancreas are much more active. Did you notice any dairy withdrawal/detox symptoms like eye discarge, red skin and so forth? And how long did they last? I plan to get into keto and see how that feels. I am still not sure if to drink with meals or not.

 no withdrawals for me when I stopped.   Not sure what you mean by drinking with meals, milk or water? I would suggest neither. 

Offline norawnofun

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2019, 03:52:35 am »
I meant drinking water. Might try sparkling again. But I´ll see how it goes. So far no stool since 3 days. Never had that without feeling uncomfortable, seems a lot of the meat and fat is absorbed.

Offline van

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2019, 04:53:12 am »
for most it normalizes out and once a day will eventually be the norm. I went through the same.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2019, 04:57:28 am »
How dumb can you get? We've been through this time and again, you can say whatever you want is "the issue" or "the focus", but when all you can show is a correlation between cooked dairy consumption and bone problems, that in no way implicates raw dairy.
  No , I also showed a direct correlation between introduction of raw dairy consumption in the Neolithic era and a corresponding drop in bone-health/bone-strength in Neolithic-era peoples. Also, you cannot see the forest for the trees, as you keep on whining about raw vs pasteurised when many other issues exist. Take the calcium issue, since calcium is more absorbable when in raw dairy, it follows logically that it is more harmful as regards excess calcium than pasteurised dairy. Then there are the hormones in raw dairy, and the fact that becoming infected from raw dairy consumption is far more likely than re consumption of pasteurised dairy.

Quote
Quite the opposite.
Pure drivel on your part. I had already pointed out links re Pottenger's meat study which proved my point.

Quote
It seems you don't understand the difference between pet keeping and domestication. Cows are domesticated animals, but they're not pets. Likewise, whoever wrote the study is calling cats "pets" with no evidence whatsoever that they would be considered pets. In fact in the article itself it mentions that people kept cats not as pets, but as a means to control rodent infestation. Which makes sense because mice are primarily grain eaters, and ancient egypt and china were the first big mostly grain fed societies.
Quite dumb. I already pointed to evidence of cats being kept as pets  as far back as 9500 years  ago at least. People would not put mere domesticated animals into the same grave as their human owner, but they would indeed put that human owner's favourite pet in the same grave. Also, cats aren't ideal hunters of  rats, for example - that is why people who want to kill rats prefer to use terriers, among other more suitable dog breeds for that purpose.Oh, and Ancient Egyptians kept all sorts of animals as pets(such as hippos,crocodiles etc.:-
https://www.ancient.eu/article/875/pets-in-ancient-egypt/ . Hippos and the like do NOT make suitable domesticated animals. Oh, and the ancient egyptians did not only regard cats as pets but also had an egyptian cat-goddess, Bastet. Oh, and here's more:-
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2013/12/16/cats-became-pets-much-earlier-than-thought-according-to-neolithic-fossils/

Quote

That's written by people who will tell you to feed your pets dry pellets of processed food. The foods were the same whether raw or cooked, so the issue IS cooking, and whatever "nutritional deficiencies" cats had on the cooked diet were caused by the cooking, not by eating different foods. Likewise, cats were selected at random for each group, so keeping track of age, sex, health condition and so forth is irrelevant as it would even out over the 900 cats that were used for the experiments.
Regardless of what they believe in, they have the right to criticise various dodgy aspects of the studies.

Quote
The romans were a decadent, degenerate society, so it could be that they were foolish enough to prefer grain over meat. In medieval europe, however, meat was regarded as the superior food. Even your own link mentions that people didn't eat more meat than they normally did because it was expensive, and not due to a concern about health.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_cuisine#Class_constraints In this link, it shows that the upper classes in the Middle-Ages mainly went in for  meat and many other foods due to the extra variety signifying higher social status, as well as the greater cost, not because meat was viewed then as being superior. Oh, and the romans were only decadent and degenerate near the end of the empire.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 04:17:27 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline thehadezb

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2019, 02:38:38 am »
I never track my macros, don´t care much about that tbh. I do almost daily simple youtube exercise, no proper work-out. No time really. During my half a year carnivore experiment (still counting) I was eating meats such as beef, chicken and home cured bacon. Plus eggs, raw goat cheese and raw goat milk mainly, plus joghurt if i didnt have raw dairy. I stopped lamb. I did a 2 day water fast now, broke it today with beef, lard and an egg. The goal is to no longer do dairy until my stomach acid is back to how it was years ago. I noticed that digestion was easier without dairy today, time will tell. I´m also curious about my tartar, if that will go away. I got a lot when I ate pasteurized joghurt. Another issue was the goat dairy, it used to do me well initially, but cow dairy is way better for me. Goat milk is more alkaline, I think that was the problem as I drank it with every acidic meat meal. Plus, AV used to say that goat milk is good for obese and sluggish people, and cow is for underweight and kinda nervous ppl. In my case he was right about that. Plus its not fatty enough. Therefore I concluded goat is useless to me, for vegans it might be a good addition to their plant based diet but not for me.

The plan is incorporate more steaks, since I always ate ground due to low HCI, have more tougher meats and try liver and bone marrow (raw) again. And have butter plus hard cheeses (since some like parmigiano romano contain 0 carbs) I want my stomach acid to be top notch again. And I think the carbs in dairy was hindering that. Used to have issues with butter, but no longer I found. I think the carnivore diet gave me back certain things to digest saturated fats again.

I'm also trying to improve my meat digestion. I have problems digesting meat or fat (not sure). What I'm planning to do is quite the opposite to you. I'm planning on pateeing my meat and avoid eating steaks.

My main fat source is butter. I would like to try beef fat or any other source of fat such as suet but It is not possible.

How do you know you are not digesting the meat right? The feeling I have is a weight on my stomach for at least 4 hours. I'm also gassy and bloated all day. Even that I'm zero carb.

Offline norawnofun

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2019, 04:22:37 am »
I had the worst digestion when I only ate meat now, even fatty cuts, so I stopped that experiment and re-evalutated everything. I think the mistake that I did was that I ate way too many dairy carbs and too less fats. The problem is that I can´t get any quality animal fats here. So I can either have lard, dairy, tallow, goose fat and bone marrow. I tried eating goose fat by the spoon, its disgusting, same as lard, its pointless. Even fatty cheap cuts of meat didn´t do the trick. And I can´t eat bone marrow all day long, too costly, so I need to stick to dairy for now. But I did 2 mistakes here

1. I ate raw Goat dairy which is watery, alkaline, lower in fat and super expensive. And im sure it interfered with my acidic meat digestion. So I stopped.

2. The other mistake I made was that I focused on soft cheeses and milk. My tartar was growing because I was eating lots of pasteurized cows joghurt and other soft or liquid dairy. So this is all very high in carbs and low in fats. I changed plans and bought the highest fat cheese that you can get, which is hard cheeses, or something like cheddar. Which has round 35 percent fat and 0.1 carbs. The other high fat dairy would be mascarpone, which is cheese made out of cream. 40 percent fat and around 2 carbs. And obviously butter, which is super high in fat (around 80 and has 0.1 carbs). My plan is to go into keto, which is around 20 carbs max per day. Within 2 days of changing the fat/carb ratio I already see my tartar getting less. So by going the keto way I let my body adjust more to digesting fats, which was impossible before since I ate too high dairy carbs.

And I also think, but I still need to experiment, that I need to drink water with my foods. For years I didn´t really do that, but I think that one of the main issues why my HCI is not top notch is that the food is not liquid enough, so it is not moving fast enough, therefore not much HCI will be produced as the food is "stuck".

You can try and pate your foods, i used to eat plenty of raw ground beef when I was still in a shitty state. But I always mixed some vegetables or herbs in it. Not a good idea. I´d recommend eating carnivore, so animal foods only until your HCI get´s better. Doing that since half a year and saw huge improvements, which I hope will become better by applying the 2 things mentioned above. And I know that I did not digest the meat well, because I was bloated, constipated like hell, which resulted in anger, brainless thinking, shitty sleep and weight loss. But you can try the suggestion of sabertooth. Do a 2-3 day water fast and break it with a very small piece of fatty meat (don´t overeat). But if you cook it I´d recommend drink water with it as it would be too dry.

Edit. Instead of making a pate to your meat you could try and make the cuts more tender by either adding rock salt or ground pineapple juice on top. As seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahe9xtwwUlA
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 04:43:51 am by norawnofun »

Offline PaganGoy

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2019, 07:55:28 am »
@norawnofun
I am losing brain cells reading this comment, what a toxic forum.
You were incredibly fresh raw fat deficient.

1. You should NEVER eat pasteurized dairy or cooked fats
2. even verifiably raw cheese must be eaten with at least an equal amount of raw never frozen fat
3. drinking water with food dilutes digestive juices horribly. 
4. rock salt is poison
5. fasting is fucking pointless.
6. goat dairy is very high in protein and very low in fat.
7. tartar on teeth/tongue is detox

Have you read the recipe for living without disease yet?




Offline TylerDurden

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2019, 01:11:33 pm »
Err, fasting is a very good idea indeed for those transitioning from cooked to raw, so as to detox the accumulated poisons. I personally found raw goat dairy to be "less worse" than raw cows' dairy, and it is possible, imo, for a few people to adapt to non-cows' dairy even if they do badly on the latter. I also disagree with number 2.
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Offline norawnofun

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2019, 10:52:52 pm »
I read and have both of aajonuses books. Were an interesting read, but I don´t follow all his advice religiously and I don´t try to be too paranoid of what I do. If you get too much trapped into your diet and study your behaviour 24/7 like a freak and think about it every day, then it´s not a healthy thing to do and in my opinion you will trap yourself in the mindset of being sick and you will hardly heal. The problem is also when people only listen to other peoples advice rather than listen to their own body. It´s no different than with a vegan diet. These people listen to 'experts' too and still don´t heal, rather than listen to their own body and realize that their health is slowly going down the drain.

You can have an impeccable diet, but if your mindset is not positive you cannot heal. One of my best friends sister has bone cancer, metastases all over her body, she tried many things, but the only thing that made it regress is talking to a psychologist. When I am at home I don´t do well, when I am abroad I am happy, gain weight and feel good, even though I do dietary exceptions, sometimes not the healthy ones. I strongly believe that being in a good mental state makes the microbiome work better and more efficient, and makes proper detoxification possible. So yes, I know pasteurized dairy and cooking ain´t good, drinking water during eating is bad, salt is apparently poison and so forth. But then again I could counterargue that the vegetables you eat all have anti-nutrients in them, so you should not touch them either. AV recommended nightshades, fruits high in sugar, gluten breads and each one of them contains something malicious. I do support studying other 'experts' advise, but I never recommend applying their rules without first consulting your own body. If I were to follow AVs or your advise without thinking, I might end up like Tyler wasting away my teeth due to his dairy intolerance. To say tartar is a ONLY a positive thing is dangerous advice. The only thing I would agree with on the points you made is about raw fats. For ex I find that raw cream is perfect for me only.

Offline PaganGoy

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2019, 02:11:38 am »
Maybe you should re read them then because you are obviously lost.
Ajanous NEVER reccomended eating bread unless you were a quote un quote "wife beater" he has stated the one time he did it in his book he had not eaten it in 15 something years and that was because when he did his son was supposedly in a paralyzing car accident.

fruits high in sugar, really? The guy ate fruit once every 3 days maximum and when he did he ALWAYS ate fruit unripe or mostly fruit low in sugar
(8 tbsp max), he allegedly used to have juvenile diabetes before the diet.
If anything he was incredibly cautious about sugar and talks about the effects of AGES (for example in honey) quite alot in his workshops and books.
Since when did I say I eat whole vegetables?
If you only do well on cream its probably because your farmer is freezing your butter but refrigerating your cream like mine is.
Frozen butter is TOXIC even when it is raw to me.  If that is the case buy cream, wait for it to warm then get a small blender and make it into butter yourself (frozen fat is trash imo).

The misinformation I see on this forum about Ajanous especially is just phenomenal.

edit* I never said tartar on teeth is "only positive" you are moving from one extreme to the next.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:52:58 am by PaganGoy »

 

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