Author Topic: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked  (Read 824 times)

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Online TylerDurden

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Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« on: February 08, 2019, 07:48:34 am »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6679525/The-fish-recognise-mirror.html

I've had issues before with various people claiming that we humans have innate rights over other species, so that, for example, it does not matter how badly we treat the animals we eat, as we are supposedly  ordained by God etc. to rule over them, because we are somehow  uniquely different. I have shown time and again, that there is no obvious set of  differences between animals and humans, that even plants are extremely complex in their behaviour, that it is very important how we treat animals as the result of sick, poorly-kept animals is always reflected in the poor nutrition of their meats/milks,thus affecting our own health etc.
'We can't go to prison - the food's bad and the sex is worse': What Barclays banker accused of getting £11.8bn secret bailout from Qatar during 2008 crash said to his colleague

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2019, 09:35:56 am »
Rights have nothing to do with nutrition.

Animals can't simultaneously have "rights" and be slaughtered for food.

You can be an animal rights advocate, or you can be a regular meat eater. You can't be both. Choose.
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Offline van

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2019, 10:38:53 am »
'you' can advocate for animals being raised humanely and then eat them.  Rights?  different story.  That concept lies in the mind, and thus also in the mind of the farmer or rancher and how he or she decides to treat his flock or herd.  AND anyone who chooses anything other than a humanely raised animal for food. 

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 11:41:14 am »
Every (I/eye) thinks it self the center of the universe.... humancentric behavior and thinking is just what humans do.

“I am A man, not a sponge! If god wished a sponge to think, A SPONGE WOULD THINK!”  Inherit the wind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2JRWPWZCUM

« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 12:20:14 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2019, 12:06:33 pm »
'you' can advocate for animals being raised humanely and then eat them.  Rights?  different story.  That concept lies in the mind

What does it mean to raise animals "humanely"? Like they are humans? But you can't do that. Humans are not bred in captivity for slaughter for meat. We're not cannibals.

Rights don't simply lie in the mind, they lie in the minds of all civilized humans.

Every (I/eye) thinks it self the center of the universe.... humancentric behavior and thinking is just what humans do.

Nobody is saying that we're the center of the universe.

Rights are a tacit agreement developed to better live in harmony with one another... With other humans that is. Animals don't have rights. The very concept of animals having rights is a misunderstanding of what rights are and why they are good.

If you raise an animal in such a way that its meat becomes toxic, you have squandered good resources, and if you then sell it to customers under false pretenses, you've commited fraud. Fraud is an infringement on someone else's rights. Some other humans' rights. Animals don't have rights. Which is why we can kill them and eat their flesh and no sane person would think we are doing something wrong (militant vegans are not sane).

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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2019, 12:35:56 pm »

You can be an animal rights advocate, or you can be a regular meat eater. You can't be both. Choose.

I believe you can advocate for animal rights and still eat meat....just as you can advocate for justice and work at the top floor of the justice Department... Humans have the wonderfully convenient capacity for hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance and diabolical duplicity.

Joking aside, "rights" can mean anything to anyone. For the most part even our most cherished human rights are more guidelines than absolutes.

From the perspective of a mindful meat eater "animal rights" means good animal husbandry. Insuring a quality standard of life for the animals raised for meat, while they live, and giving them a quick death without prolonged and cruel suffering, when they are harvested.

There is also a more eastern perspective to consider that denies the separation from the self and the outside world, so to kill and consume life, is to kill and devour a part of your self....This view goes way beyond the limited  notions of individual rights, and chooses to focus more on respecting the interconnectedness between self and other, human/animal, or predator/prey. Violation of our food animals basic "humane" living standards will give rise to negative Karma in the flesh, and will have to be payed for with future negative Karma, by those who blindly feed upon their own cruelty...

For me Humane is a subjective term, in which the individual uses human judgement to decide what conditions are conducive for maximum health and minimal suffering, of another being. Being humane in regards to livestock is to put yourself in the animals position?? For example... If you were a Sheep in a shepherd's flock, you wouldn't have any  of these high falutin thoughts, or agony over injustice.... so what would be considered human to Ewe would be much different from what is humane to me.

If I were a sheep that was going to be eventually slaughtered and eaten... I would hope that I was given good pasture to eat, fresh water, protection from wild beast, the ability to move free...to spend what short time I have without suffering or trama....spending a good many beautiful days grazing, breeding, ruminating and bleeting as sheep do...blissfully unaware of the hungry reapers watch.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 01:08:02 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline van

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 03:45:15 pm »
well said   thanks

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« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 05:44:35 am by TylerDurden »
'We can't go to prison - the food's bad and the sex is worse': What Barclays banker accused of getting £11.8bn secret bailout from Qatar during 2008 crash said to his colleague

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2019, 11:47:30 pm »
I believe you can advocate for animal rights and still eat meat....just as you can advocate for justice and work at the top floor of the justice Department... Humans have the wonderfully convenient capacity for hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance and diabolical duplicity.

Well, of course you can do whatever you want. But if your own tenets that you profess and recommend to others are bound to get you killed once taken to their obvious conclusions, then there's something wrong with your system of ethics.

Joking aside, "rights" can mean anything to anyone. For the most part even our most cherished human rights are more guidelines than absolutes.

Just like some people can believe the Earth is flat when it is round, or some can believe chemical toxins are beneficial to our health, so too can plenty of people have a fundamental misunderstanding of what rights are, or what rights are correct. Remember that referring to "rights" is also a way of saying "what is right". There's only one set of rights that is correct for humans under a strictly hunter-gatherer, communal system of production, and only one, strictly opposite set of rights that is correct for humans living under an agricultural, individualistic, trade-based system of production. There can be minor disagreements as regards the specifics of how to apply those rights in very particular circumstances, but the tenets are set in stone, and they can be derived logically, using nothing other than our own understanding of what it means to be human.

From the perspective of a mindful meat eater "animal rights"  means good animal husbandry. Insuring a quality standard of life for the animals raised for meat, while they live, and giving them a quick death without prolonged and cruel suffering, when they are harvested.

The problem here is that you're using a term that means something for humans, and using it to mean something completely different for animals, all while attempting to reconcile the two in some way. This is bound to get you in trouble, as the contradictions abound and "rebels" who think they have everything figured out start killing meat eating humans in an attempt to "defend animal rights"... This is coming, and we should recognize it as possibly the biggest threat to humanity in the coming decades, or perhaps even centuries. As long as these rebels are treated as the terrorists they are, life will continue to be bearable, but once these rebels get a hold of the oppressive, criminal arm of the State, there will be dark times for many of us.

There is also a more eastern perspective to consider that denies the separation from the self and the outside world, so to kill and consume life, is to kill and devour a part of your self....This view goes way beyond the limited  notions of individual rights, and chooses to focus more on respecting the interconnectedness between self and other, human/animal, or predator/prey. Violation of our food animals basic "humane" living standards will give rise to negative Karma in the flesh, and will have to be payed for with future negative Karma, by those who blindly feed upon their own cruelty...

These religions are a part of the problem, too. They have some fundamentally anti-human tenets within their teachings. However, they have managed to keep those tenets in check for millenia, whereas the more virulent radical veganism ideology continues to prove itself more dangerous every day.

For me Humane is a subjective term, in which the individual uses human judgement to decide what conditions are conducive for maximum health and minimal suffering, of another being. Being humane in regards to livestock is to put yourself in the animals position?? For example... If you were a Sheep in a shepherd's flock, you wouldn't have any  of these high falutin thoughts, or agony over injustice.... so what would be considered human to Ewe would be much different from what is humane to me.

If I were a sheep that was going to be eventually slaughtered and eaten... I would hope that I was given good pasture to eat, fresh water, protection from wild beast, the ability to move free...to spend what short time I have without suffering or trama....spending a good many beautiful days grazing, breeding, ruminating and bleeting as sheep do...blissfully unaware of the hungry reapers watch.

Just like the hunters of old put themselves in their prey's position only to figure out how to predict its movements in order to best achieve a kill so they can eat their flesh, so too animal husbandry should concern itself with putting oneself in the animals' position only insofar as it refers to maintaining optimal health and optimal use of resources for those animals, so that their flesh is more abundant and more nourishing to us.

Again, animals should be kept in healthy conditions for the benefit of the meat and the health of the meat eating humans, not for the benefit of the animals in and of themselves.

Life is a struggle for survival and reproduction. Every animal wants to win. It's not possible for the farmer to guarantee each of its rams will be able to survive and reproduce, as inherently some will be able to mate more than the others. By selecting those rams that will make offspring that is able to produce more quantity of more nourishing meat in a shorter amount of time and with a smaller amount of food input, and also selecting for docility which will make his flock more manageable, he is doing something good for humans, but you could argue he is doing something "bad" for the sheep. That's not a problem, because our only ultimate concern should be about human health and wellbeing.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 11:54:24 pm by dariorpl »
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Offline van

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2019, 10:43:45 am »
this ranting is going on too long.  It's obvious you don't care how animals may or may not suffer for your health benefits.   Can we just leave it at that.  The rest appears to be simply verbiage wasted. 
    If you want to worry about rebels killing those who eat meat, great, go ahead. But please don't dilute the concept of raising animals in a humane way, or in a fashion that allows that animal to not suffer.  Pretty simple concept to me as I've done it for years.

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2019, 06:28:11 pm »
That's not a problem, because our only ultimate concern should be about human health and wellbeing.
You are forgetting that everything is linked in a world ecology, here. If our ultimate concern is only for human health and wellbeing, then wiping out other species, or degrading them via dysgenics/inbreeding etc.  is not going to help us in the long term.
'We can't go to prison - the food's bad and the sex is worse': What Barclays banker accused of getting £11.8bn secret bailout from Qatar during 2008 crash said to his colleague

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2019, 07:58:48 pm »
But please don't dilute the concept of raising animals in a humane way, or in a fashion that allows that animal to not suffer.  Pretty simple concept to me as I've done it for years.

Again, the very concept of treating animals "humanely" is bizarre, self contradictory, and eventually suicidal.

Likewise, animals cannot "suffer" by definition. Suffering is a human emotion.

It's interesting that those accusing others of being "humanocentric" are the ones doing anthropomorphism and trying to turn animals into humans.

You are forgetting that everything is linked in a world ecology, here. If our ultimate concern is only for human health and wellbeing, then wiping out other species, or degrading them via dysgenics/inbreeding etc.  is not going to help us in the long term.

If and insofar as some wild lifeforms are more beneficial for human health and wellbeing than domesticated ones, I'm all for them. Likewise for certain selected traits.

There is no need for laws mandating protection of wild species in private lands, or of certain selected breeds' traits, however.
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Offline thehadezb

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2019, 11:39:57 pm »
I agree with dariorpl.
Most of the animal rights advocates don't have an idea of what rights truly are and what their purpose is. We humans have developed a series of social institutions to be a able to live on a peaceful society without other people threaten our lives by means of aggression. Saying that animals have rights means that we need to live peacefully with other animals. That's absolutely non-sense. Violence is a fact. If we weren't living on a state with rights and justice we were fighting each other for resources. There is no morality or ethics impregnated on us, that is completely cultural and comes from education. If we haven't been taught about "human rights", respect, dignity, and the like, It's most probably that we would be fighting as savages for resources.

If I were to treat an animal humanely that would be because I want that animal to taste good, not because I believe it has to be treated with respect. If I were to care about the environment that is because I believe I will be affected by that (or your offspring), not because I believe we have to respect all the animals living around me. We can create this kind of narrative and make our own religion, but It will be impossible to make it a universal law.

Offline surfsteve

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2019, 12:16:41 am »
Interesting thread. I guess a lot has to do with what the definition of rights are. Though I often consume feed lot beef I feel badly for the conditions the animals have been raised and apologize to them for the way they have been treated, often in the form of a prayer before consuming them as I do for grass fed animals and even plants. I feel better about eating them knowing that they've been treated morei humanely. I purchase as much grass fed and wild caught meat as I can afford and am constantly finding new sources and ways to do so. I find that the less an animal is cooked the more I appreciate it.  Animals should be given as many rights as possible but I also have rights to purchase feed lot over grass fed and will have to pay for my actions with my health and well being. I appreciate that I am allowed to have free will to choose between right and wrong and pray for the wisdom to make the right choice. My faith in government and society doing this for me is not that great. I can also recognize my own hypocrisy and appreciate the irony. Thanks for listening!

Offline van

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2019, 01:09:05 am »
'animals cannot suffer'..  You've obviously never had a pet, or been around animals on a farm or opened your eyes and other senses, or have developed compassion for anything other than your thoughts.    I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with your persistant insisting, but can you accept that others here care about the animals that they eat?  And if so, can we leave it at that.

Offline thehadezb

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2019, 03:22:13 am »
From a scientific perspective, a pet can have a reaction similar to a human reaction in regard to a specific stimuli. Nonetheless, we can't assure that this reaction have the same dimensions as we experience. Animals doesn't have the same brain structure as us so It is most possible that the reaction It's in fact different. In any case, this is not a reason to attribute rights to an animal. We don't even attribute rights to humans because of emotions. Life it's all about suffering, scarcity and survival.

Offline thehadezb

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2019, 05:41:43 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp8-rYqCAnM

(This thread should have gone to the hot topic section)

Offline van

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2019, 10:26:44 am »
go ahead, believe your thoughts, and kick your dog.  It's ok, he won't feel it. 

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2019, 01:34:14 pm »
There is something to be said about the nature of the human capacity for taking personal responsibility.....the natural world contains elements of cruelty and carelessness...cats will often toy with their prey, causing prolonged and painful deaths.... Rising above the need to constantly test ourselves against the primal animals just to survive, our desire to continue playing the age old predator prey game within human beings began to fade, as the new practice of world cultivation took control. 

Wild animals have little concept or Idea of responsibility for their actions....having their actions primarily driven by instinctive responses to environmental conditioning...  Humans on the other hand in many ways must take responsibility for altering their own environmental conditions..... Learning to cultivate consistent sources of abundant Animal foods, independant from the wild cycles of feast or famine, has given our species great power over all others.

With this great power comes great responsibility, as well as the need for sensibility, in order to sustain  the progress of this uniquely Human state of this highly cultivated existence, that many of us have found ourselves within. The enactment of governmentally enforced Laws and Rights may in someways be necessary on some levels, to maintain this unnatural order of Mankind...and ultimately it is up to the individuals sensibility as to what is fair and just, or how one should react accordingly in support for or against societal rules. Within this dynamic interchange of ideas perhaps a median can be divined...at least for those with the ripe kind of eyes.

How is it that one couldn't see that we are responsible for the creating and sustaining the cultivated lifeforms we use for maintaining our own life's substance? and if we are now responsible for cultivation of our fate, then why not attempt to create a world where the other organisms we feed on are imbibed with the spirit of happiness we seek to find in ourselves?

What is this life for, if not to strive for such Ideals? to try and take the next leap forward. The myriads of DNA electric light crystals within each human being, receives its power from the spirit energy of the life force it consumes, so why not consciously work to cultivate a divine sustenance within a Garden full of Plants and animals that live a life of bliss?

A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2019, 04:13:50 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp8-rYqCAnM

(This thread should have gone to the hot topic section)

Thank you for posting this. I hadn't realized it had already gotten to this point. There is probably less time left than even I thought we had. Notice this came out after I made all previous posts in this thread.

It honestly looks like what could be the beginning of a real zombie apocalypse.

The naivety of most posters here (and of most people in general) when seeing such a level of violence from an insane group of people who spread their mental virus at an accelerating rate, reminds of the now cliche "first they came for the factory farmers, and I didn't say anything because I'm not a factory farmer, and I don't like them anyway" thing.

It's only a matter of time before they start targeting organic, healthy farms too, and then eventually all meat sellers and eventually all meat eaters. Why? Because of this bizarre, crazy and anti-human idea that there is such a thing as "animal rights", which most here and most people in general support. The ones you see in the video are the extremists yes, but they are simply taking this crazy idea to its natural conclusion, and increasingly more people will fall victims to the same insanity, as long as there isn't anyone shining a light and showing them the way, and simply saying: No, animals don't have rights. Animals are property.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 04:22:04 am by dariorpl »
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Offline thehadezb

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2019, 06:25:20 am »
There is something to be said about the nature of the human capacity for taking personal responsibility.....the natural world contains elements of cruelty and carelessness...cats will often toy with their prey, causing prolonged and painful deaths.... Rising above the need to constantly test ourselves against the primal animals just to survive, our desire to continue playing the age old predator prey game within human beings began to fade, as the new practice of world cultivation took control. 

Wild animals have little concept or Idea of responsibility for their actions....having their actions primarily driven by instinctive responses to environmental conditioning...  Humans on the other hand in many ways must take responsibility for altering their own environmental conditions..... Learning to cultivate consistent sources of abundant Animal foods, independant from the wild cycles of feast or famine, has given our species great power over all others.

With this great power comes great responsibility, as well as the need for sensibility, in order to sustain  the progress of this uniquely Human state of this highly cultivated existence, that many of us have found ourselves within. The enactment of governmentally enforced Laws and Rights may in someways be necessary on some levels, to maintain this unnatural order of Mankind...and ultimately it is up to the individuals sensibility as to what is fair and just, or how one should react accordingly in support for or against societal rules. Within this dynamic interchange of ideas perhaps a median can be divined...at least for those with the ripe kind of eyes.

How is it that one couldn't see that we are responsible for the creating and sustaining the cultivated lifeforms we use for maintaining our own life's substance? and if we are now responsible for cultivation of our fate, then why not attempt to create a world where the other organisms we feed on are imbibed with the spirit of happiness we seek to find in ourselves?

What is this life for, if not to strive for such Ideals? to try and take the next leap forward. The myriads of DNA electric light crystals within each human being, receives its power from the spirit energy of the life force it consumes, so why not consciously work to cultivate a divine sustenance within a Garden full of Plants and animals that live a life of bliss?

Very profound stuff
That's exactly why we humans can't attribute rights to an animal. We are only being who carry responsibility on this planet.
We have those rules. Each human being should be able to treat their animals how they like. In the case those animals are carried to market is responsibility of consumers to ask the farmer how the animals are treated and decide by themself if they want to support that kind of treatment. The consumer has the power. The problem strikes from the fact that modern urbanized people doesn't have a clue of how an animal should be raised, cared and treated.

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2019, 02:41:28 pm »
Very profound stuff
That's exactly why we humans can't attribute rights to an animal. We are only being who carry responsibility on this planet.
We have those rules. Each human being should be able to treat their animals how they like. In the case those animals are carried to market is responsibility of consumers to ask the farmer how the animals are treated and decide by themself if they want to support that kind of treatment. The consumer has the power. The problem strikes from the fact that modern urbanized people doesn't have a clue of how an animal should be raised, cared and treated.
Humans who are too stupid to be capable of treating their pets etc. well, should therefore not be allowed to have any rights at all over other species.  Also, I should point out that masses of humans often tend to have a collective IQ which is much lower than the  average IQ of individuals in any group(I'm thinking of  the Roman Mob as a typical example). The point being is that Nature is a far better master than any human could ever be. For example, we now have an epidemic of too many deer in the UK, but stupid farmers etc. are resisting fiercely the return of wolves and bears to deal with this issue - excess of deer ruin forests, incidentally. Check out what happened when wolves were reintroduced into Yellowstone, for example.
'We can't go to prison - the food's bad and the sex is worse': What Barclays banker accused of getting £11.8bn secret bailout from Qatar during 2008 crash said to his colleague

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Another idiotic humanocentric so-called "palaeo" notion debunked
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 10:18:19 am »
Indeed the shrouds of ignorance are at the crux of the issue, this is exacerbated by the trend to outsource most of modern food production away from actual human beings. Faceless corporations, now control the means of production for much of the worlds food supply. Many of these monetary machinations of Mammon have no humanistic sensibility or sense of responsibility for anyone or anything other than the monetary gain of its benefactors. For these corporate entities, if it is more economically lucrative to lobby for laws to prevent people from exposing animal cruelty, than it actually is to incorporate less cruel methods of production, then the PR order will go into effect and the cruelty will continue under the cover of darkness. In such an atmosphere it is understandable why there are so many misguided and confused about what to actually do to stop the cruelty, greed and "eco-ill-logical" idiocy of these out of control industrial combines.

Solving these problems of ethically feeding and optimally sustaining the evolution of a more human/humane world ecosystem, without going down the cynical malthusian road of Damnation for all of humanity, is not going to be easy...This new fangled phenomenon of self determination is destined to force our species to learn these difficult lessons ; The revelation will not come to us without great casualties, immense suffering, and stifling complication.

What we are now facing could be likened to life on earth reaching the next layer of the great filter. As things are today, is it possible for us to continue to evolve in more positive directions , without both losing our humanity or destroying the ecological viability of the primal womb from which it was conceived? (I honestly do not know)

Perhaps much of what is playing out on earth right now and within the epoch of humanity at large, is the growing pains of a new entity. These pervasive and collective pains experience by all of the Plants and Animals, as a consequence of human interference with the worlds ecological systems, may prompt in the ensuing generations, dramatic world wide epigenetic shifts. This new Genesis resulting mass mutation, is an eminent reality, and its task is to work as a counter balance to the destabilizing acts of ManKind. In the same spirit, earth's biome once responded to the very acts of God, that caused past mass extinctions, that gave rise to Mankind; The life forms of earth are now being forced to respond to the acts of man, with future mass extinctions eventually giving rise to a new form of life whose destiny may reach beyond this world.

Through this dynamic process of perpetual cannibalistic mutilation, know as life on earth, the children of earth just might one day be ultimately transformed, beyond the "Childhoods End", achieving the level of maturity needed to reach very edge of the Great filter....   

« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 12:01:46 pm by sabertooth »
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

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'We can't go to prison - the food's bad and the sex is worse': What Barclays banker accused of getting £11.8bn secret bailout from Qatar during 2008 crash said to his colleague

 

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