Author Topic: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".  (Read 35970 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2009, 03:53:37 pm »
Wait, you do know about the Inuit don't you? They don't exactly keel over and die at 10, they live longer and healthier lives than most Americans on their native diet.

Last I checked, Inuit lifespan was lower, even as regards those on traditional diets, due to lack of access to medical facilities and a strong tendency towards alcoholism(a common aspect of native tribes these days).
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2009, 09:40:12 pm »
...I felt a little like eating 2 eggs today (scrambled, as I don't trust raw animal products)....
A wise decision to make at least two exceptions to fruitarianism. Food-borne illness outbreaks and recalls in recent years have involved not just lightly cooked beef, but also plant food products like raw spinach, peanut butter, sesame seeds, pistachios, "Veggie Booty," etc., as well as cooked restaurant egg and fish dishes. Why do you trust plant food products, and cooked eggs and seafood and why do you consider eggs and seafood more Paleo than land mammal meats & fats?

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For the love of god try and eat more fruit.
Yes, I decided to take your advice and have been doing that the last several days to put your approach to the test--eating more raw, organic fruits and nuts and all-natural juice with no added sugars or flavors and less meat and fat. It will also enable me to quickly get rid of the remaining carb foods so I can get going on zero carb. The results: my gums are starting to get irritated again, my teeth have that nasty carb film on them again that I try to scrub clean with an electric toothbrush, Oxycare oral irrigator, dental floss and washcloth, and I have to scrub 2 or 3 times a day, but they never seem to get as clean as they were when I was near-zero carb. I'm getting a return of dead skin on my lips, nose, forehead, and scalp, I'm not sleeping as well, waking up with pains and stiffness in the morning, and generally feeling worse. Thanks a lot!

Since you've shown no Hogan clan allegiance and don't seem overly concerned by your having to wash your teeth a lot, I'll return to asking you to please continue eating lots of fruit and please don't eat wild fish (to keep the price down for me ;-) ).

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This is as opposed to what, alleged teeth problems?
I don't want to lose my teeth like my grandparents did or have to get a permanent dental bridge like my father has, which I was close to needing. If you don't care about teeth and gum problems and pain, that's your choice.

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Palophil, let's get a bit of perspective here. I'm not a 100% fruitarian or even vegan, I have fish and sometimes eggs. I have green tea and supplements and cocoa. 90% fruitarian is VASTLY less controversial and "fruity" as 90% meat and the latter is nothing like paleo man 95% of time plus in my opinion.
Thanks for the candor. I can see your difficulty in finding a diet forum that can be your home. You would probably take a lot of flack at fruitarian and vegetarian forums for eating eggs and fish, and perhaps cheating in additional ways you haven't divulged? The PaleoFood forum you trashed is actually more in line with your diet than this forum, though you might learn more here because there are quite a number of former fruitarians and vegetarians here. The forums that come closest to matching your diet might be the Weight Watchers and Ornish forums, though they have a weight-loss orientation that may not fit your goals.

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ESPECIALLY raw meat. It's insane... sorry, I don't often go there, but I had to this time.

Animals are your relatives as well and you eat them. I'm not using this as a part of my argument as to better/worse for health, I'm just throwing you a philosophical err... bone.
Your insults really don't bother me. What is the source of your emotion on this? What is this philosophy you speak of? Did you have a bad experience with meat in your youth?

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My skin was terrible and is now slowly getting to perfection on my fruitarian-esque diet. It was terrible despite all the green tea, huge amounts of fruit, vitamins etc. etc. I was taking, the only thing to slowly kill off the little bits of acne was the fruitarian-esque diet.
Fascinating. Please share the secret of your success. What was the difference between the diet with huge amounts of fruit and vitamins that gave you bad skin and the fruitarian-esque diet that is clearing your skin?

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Don't take this the wrong way but have you ever considered writing testimonials for flashy products sites....?
There aren't a lot of large companies paying people to write testimonials for pasture-fed (or wild), raw meat/fat/organs. At least with fruitarianesque-ism you could work for a large fruit/juice manufacturer like Dole, Chiquita, etc.

Quote from: PaleoPhil on July 09, 2009, 11:08:09 AM:
"You still haven't explained where you got the idea that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. The book you mentioned, Man the Hunted, doesn't make that argument...."

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The book does make the argument a bit. Look at page 226 to page 231. They explained it better than I could....
OK, thanks for pointing to the heart of their argument. I read that and it doesn't claim that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. Instead it argues:

"…we can hypothesize that early humans were able to exploit A WIDE RANGE OF DIETARY RESOURCES [emphasis mine], including hard, brittle foods (fruits, nuts, seeds, and pods), and soft, weak foods (ripe fruits, young leaves and herbs, flowers and buds). They were also able to eat abrasive objects, including gritty plant parts, such as grass seeds, roots rhizomes, and underground tubers. … [Teaford and Ungar] state: 'The early hominids were not dentally preadapted to eat meat--they simply did not have the sharp, reciprocally concave shearing blades necessary to retain and cut such foods." [No, but they had sharp rocks. LOL Even vultures use rocks to crack open ostrich eggs, for Pete's sake. If birds can use them, why couldn't early hominids whose hands were much better adapted to hold them? Rocks would have come in particularly handy when cracking open long bones and skulls to get at the marrow and brains that other animals couldn't reach. Regardless of whether early hominids scavenged or hunted or both the end result was the same--fats and meats to eat.]

It goes on to say that humans have an omnivorous alimentary track, meaning we are adapted to eat a wide variety of plants and meats--not just fruits. I agree with this and my view has never been that we cannot eat plants.

Interestingly, they include legumes ("pods"), "grass seeds" (which would include grains and grain-like seeds) and tubers among the typical foods Paleo humans would have eaten, implying they ate far more of these than meats. What is your opinion on eating legumes, grains and tubers? Are these healthy foods? Healthier than raw, pasture-fed and wild meats, fats and organs?

Quote from: PaleoPhil on July 09, 2009, 11:08:09 AM
"Also, if so many people think that Stone Agers were fruitarians, as you seem to think, then why are there no Paleo-fruitarian diet forums?"

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Pure, unashamed, ad hominem. This is the same things you're saying over and over.
Ad hominem means attacking the person who is making the argument instead of addressing the substance of the claim. You claimed over at the PaleoFood forum that the people there who eat significant amounts of meat had "hijacked" the term Paleo diet and misused it, that you were surprised that eating peanut shells ??? was not one of the common topics there and that some Paleo dieters would eat so much protein, and basically implied that the views over there are in a tiny minority, arguing that the diets of the people there and here are very unhealthy. I asked for evidence to support your claims--if a flesh-heavy diet is so much rarer and more absurd than a fruitarianesque diet, why isn't there a fruitarianesque forum and why aren't the Paleo dieters in these forums complaining about deteriorating health and leaving for a fruitarianesque forum? That is not ad hominem, it's basic sense. If half of what you say is true then you should be able to start your own fruitarianesque Yahoo group (which doesn't take much time) and easily get people to leave here and flock to it. Why don't you? That question was asked of you at the other forum and you still haven't answered it.

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Back to the teeth AGAIN...? Fine, I do find it somewhat interesting to hear about your teeth remineralization.
Fascinating, isn't it? Here's some info on it:

"Remineralization occurs when calcium from the saliva and other sources replace a tooth's lost calcium. When the calcium is replaced, the enamel can repair itself. In order for this process to take place, the surface of the tooth needs to be very clean, there needs to be a sufficient flow of saliva, and there needs to be an adequate amount of calcium." (http://hubpages.com/hub/Remineralization-of-tooth-cavities)

So you see, we must have enough calcium in our systems, because "an adequate amount of calcium" is necessary for remineralization to occur. So our tooth remineralization also suggests that our bone density is probably improving, which Lex Rooker reports dental x-rays have documented in his case. Again, if you value your health, read all you can of Lex's bio, journal and posts.

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I don't want sound obnoxious but after hearing about remineralization I thought maybe the high animal protein diet could do that. After reading this, I'm inclined to think that it probably IS a mainly isolated phenomenon
What are you talking about, the geophagy (therapeutic ingestion of clays)?

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I DID. I tried it and I hated it. I felt terrible.
OK, care to be any more specific?

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You should call your diet the "neo diet"... the diet of Neolithic people.
The Neolithic began with the dawn of agriculture, which would mean eating foods I don't eat, such as grains, dairy, legumes, etc. You can call your diet whatever you want and I hope you'll show me the same courtesy. I tend to call mine an "ancestral diet."

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... that's a sort of gradual wear and tear that happens with a lot of things with age. I don't care how good your diet is, by the time you're 45 you won't play soccer as well as when you were 25. My dad is about 80 now and his top teeth are fully replaced...
I already explained to you--my "natural wear and tear" have been reversing--or at least they were until I followed your fruitarianesque advice.

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I used to keep off grapefruit and tomatoes but am back on them now... I admit I'm scared of my mind at the thought of going back to the dentist.
I too used to fear the painful dental cleanings. Now they feel like a pleasurable massage. I never would have guessed that such rapid improvement was possible.

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I've sent away for a big load of vitamins with fish oils etc.
Think about it, fish oils are a wild animal fat. So wild animal fats are apparently healthy--else why supplement with them? Why do you need a wild animal fat supplement and loads of vitamins if today's fruits are so healthy?

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This is flying directly in the face of high protein diets which create a VERY acidy environment inside in the body. NOONE disputes this or says that fruits will cause bad bones
Again, you're talking about COOKED meat. This is the RAW Paleo diet forum, remember? And we dispute that claim as regards raw flesh, obviously.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 10:12:46 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2009, 09:58:47 pm »
Quote
My skin was terrible and is now slowly getting to perfection on my fruitarian-esque diet. It was terrible despite all the green tea, huge amounts of fruit, vitamins etc. etc. I was taking, the only thing to slowly kill off the little bits of acne was the fruitarian-esque diet.

Wai Diet is the ultimate cure for Acne.  Wai Diet is already broadly considered as part of Raw Paleo Diet.  (raw fruit + evoo + raw eggs + raw sea food, always eat your fruit with a fat so your blood sugar does not fluctuate)
A fruit diet is a very good cleansing diet and must be considered as a temporary treatment.  To survive a fruit diet, you must have fat sources like nuts, avocados, coconut milk / meat.
I used to have cystic acne myself and I had terrible skin with folliculitis in my arms and I was ravaged with eczema in 2005.
I own and operate http://www.eczemacure.info

Superinfinity, I think you need to know that many of us in raw paleo forum were also sick, have cured ourselves, have hopped on to many diets before.  Do not be discouraged by the arguments you receive in this thread, this is all cerebral, a manly bonding thing.  I argued for fruitarian and vegan diets some time ago in Dr. Sutter's thread on Curezone and he was alarmed and told me that animal food was important.  He was correct.  I fell flat on my face after 2 months of raw vegan.  I fell flat on my face after 2 months of fruitarian.  Yesterday I thanked him for his wise remarks some time ago.  Good thing I'm not dogmatic about anything.  Not even raw paleo or its many variants or ratios.
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2009, 10:36:13 pm »
Last I checked, Inuit lifespan was lower, even as regards those on traditional diets, due to lack of access to medical facilities and a strong tendency towards alcoholism(a common aspect of native tribes these days).

This is comparable to the many scientific studies which show that eating meat is bad for us, in the sense that they never say that the meat they use is cooked.

Yes, Inuit lifespan is lower, what you ignore is that the interesting reports are of traditional or pre-contact Inuit diet, not modern. Lack of access to medical facilities results in longer life and better health - see Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.
There are no living Inuit who eat a traditional diet. AFAIK

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2009, 10:47:09 pm »
Quote
I've sent away for a big load of vitamins with fish oils etc.

??? You need vitamins and supplements ???
Whatever for?
Real raw food is more powerful than all that.
I remember my sick brother shivering to death when his psoriasis was almost terminal, we were giving him big doses of fish oil capsules.  My herbalist was angry at me for giving my brother supplements.  I acceded to her hysterics and bought my brother fresh raw tuna.  He gobbled up 1/2 kilo in 1 meal.  Next day he stopped shivering.  Just like that, he received true nutrition.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 10:54:26 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2009, 10:50:27 pm »
The PaleoFood forum you trashed is actually more in line with your diet than this forum, though you might learn more here because there are quite a number of former fruitarians and vegetarians here.

LOL
The paleofood list is a combat zone which has no common belief in what is paleofood. It is a work in progress, and "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen", which  was SuperInfinity's response to the fray.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2009, 12:27:05 am »
Hi William. Love your passion and humor, as usual.  :) 

There are no living Inuit who eat a traditional diet. AFAIK
Dr. Jay Wortman is actually working to return Namgis, Inuit and other First Nations peoples to eating more of their traditional foods. He started with himself, with amazing results, and also conducted a 12 month study. Here are some links:

Exercise and Low Carb Diets
http://www.dsolve.com/news-aamp-info-othermenu-60/23-diabetes-solution/26-news11

"Jay Wortman is a medical doctor who was born in a remote part of northern Alberta that used to be a Hudson Bay trading post. Jay was raised in a log house on the banks of the Peace River. Now he’s a Medical Doctor and Regional Director for Health Canada, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch. In this position, he’s working to help first nations people return to a diet closer to the low-carb version that kept them healthy for generations."

MY BIG, FAT DIET
http://HTTP://WWW.CBC.CA/THELENS/BIGFATDIET/

Dr. Jay’s Blog
http://www.drjaywortman.com/
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2009, 01:06:10 am »
A wise decision to make at least two exceptions to fruitarianism. Food-borne illness outbreaks and recalls in recent years have involved not just lightly cooked beef, but also plant food products like raw spinach, peanut butter, sesame seeds, pistachios, "Veggie Booty," etc., as well as cooked restaurant egg and fish dishes. Why do you trust plant food products, and cooked eggs and seafood and why do you consider eggs and seafood more Paleo than land mammal meats & fats?

Because first of all fruit is SUPPOSED to be eaten raw. Obviously the food industry and government don't give a crap about us raw foodists for other foods (they probably secretly hate raw meat eaters especially and wouldn't mind seeing them all get sick), they are NOT going to bend over backwards to make sure we're not being poisoned... consumer organisations won't be looking out so much either. If they give hormones/medication to an animal... who knows what will happen when you eat it. Cooking at least destroys those things. I actually rarely eat raw vegetables anyway... the one I eat by far the most of is organic broccoli (the non-organic stuff gives me headaches). I consider eggs and seafood more paleo because they were a lot easier for paleo men to get and show up an awful lot in the fossil record. Plus the great apes catch a lot more fish than they do meat. One Orangutan was actually photographed using a human spear to fish... probably from copying a human (on a tangent to that, Orangutans are being pushed out of their homeland and made extinct by human plantations. Please try and do what you can to help them, they're our relatives... how would you like to be forced out of your home and all your food taken from you and starved to death?? And for what, because you have a smaller brain??? It's humans' larger brain that is ruining EVERYTHING).

Yes, I decided to take your advice and have been doing that the last several days to put your approach to the test--eating more raw, organic fruits and nuts and all-natural juice with no added sugars or flavors and less meat and fat. It will also enable me to quickly get rid of the remaining carb foods so I can get going on zero carb. The results: my gums are starting to get irritated again, my teeth have that nasty carb film on them again that I try to scrub clean with an electric toothbrush, Oxycare oral irrigator, dental floss and washcloth, and I have to scrub 2 or 3 times a day, but they never seem to get as clean as they were when I was near-zero carb. I'm getting a return of dead skin on my lips, nose, forehead, and scalp, I'm not sleeping as well, waking up with pains and stiffness in the morning, and generally feeling worse. Thanks a lot!

Just because it's easier to settle into a fruitarian diet than a low-carb diet doesn't mean you can just wake up one day and decide to do it. I'm not sure if I believe that thing about "return of dead skin"...

And why the HELL do people take "juice"?? It's STUPID. People give out about blood sugar and then they go and gollup down juice!!!! Juice will raise your blood sugar like it was never supposed to, (yes... even if you take it unsweetened....). Juice is about the same as cooking lightly.... you're losing stuff out of it and just eating more calories faster. I don't know why people do juicing... you say you're worried about the bloodsugar of fruit and then you juice it? I'm not saying that it's a bad misconception or a bad mistake for you as a "newbie" fruitarian as juicing seems to be all over the place, but it is not a very smart thing and definitely not paleo.  
 
Thanks for the candor. I can see your difficulty in finding a diet forum that can be your home. You would probably take a lot of flack at fruitarian and vegetarian forums for eating eggs and fish, and perhaps cheating in additional ways you haven't divulged?

Not so much, rawfoodsupport.com is a very good one. I'd hazard a guess that there are nearly as much fruitarian boards out there than paleo ones, how about that? I told you the board I had a mishap last Saturday, but I'm "clean" ever since.  

Your insults really don't bother me. What is the source of your emotion on this? What is this philosophy you speak of? Did you have a bad experience with meat in your youth?
Fascinating. Please share the secret of your success. What was the difference between the diet with huge amounts of fruit and vitamins that gave you bad skin and the fruitarian-esque diet that is clearing your skin?
There aren't a lot of large companies paying people to write testimonials for pasture-fed (or wild), raw meat/fat/organs. At least with fruitarianesque-ism you could work for a large fruit/juice manufacturer like Dole, Chiquita, etc.

 l) The huge amount of vitamins and fruit also contained milk, biscuits, cake, bread and so on. Could a diet high in raw animal protein do it as well? Probably, as I think it was the bad foods that caused it. However I doubt it would repair my skin as fast or as well.
 
[No, but they had sharp rocks. LOL Even vultures use rocks to crack open ostrich eggs, for Pete's sake. If birds can use them, why couldn't early hominids whose hands were much better adapted to hold them? Rocks would have come in particularly handy when cracking open long bones and skulls to get at the marrow and brains that other animals couldn't reach. Regardless of whether early hominids scavenged or hunted or both the end result was the same--fats and meats to eat.]

Did you know that people who kill animals also have a propensity for killing humans? It's how many serial killers start out, by hurting and killing animals. Just a semi-random thought...

Interestingly, they include legumes ("pods"), "grass seeds" (which would include grains and grain-like seeds) and tubers among the typical foods Paleo humans would have eaten, implying they ate far more of these than meats. What is your opinion on eating legumes, grains and tubers? Are these healthy foods? Healthier than raw, pasture-fed and wild meats, fats and organs?

If the legumes, grains and tubers are raw? Yes. If they're cooked? Yes. Wrongham may be a fool, but at the end of the day a cooked potato is a very good food in my book. The main reason I don't eat them is for principle and contingency. As I have repeatedly stated, I may once a month or something eat such things again, if only for the sake of stupidity. :P
 
Ad hominem means attacking the person who is making the argument instead of addressing the substance of the claim. You claimed over at the PaleoFood forum that the people there who eat significant amounts of meat had "hijacked" the term Paleo diet and misused it, that you were surprised that eating peanut shells ??? was not one of the common topics there and that some Paleo dieters would eat so much protein, and basically implied that the views over there are in a tiny minority, arguing that the diets of the people there and here are very unhealthy. I asked for evidence to support your claims--if a flesh-heavy diet is so much rarer and more absurd than a fruitarianesque diet, why isn't there a fruitarianesque forum and why aren't the Paleo dieters in these forums complaining about deteriorating health and leaving for a fruitarianesque forum? That is not ad hominem, it's basic sense. If half of what you say is true then you should be able to start your own fruitarianesque Yahoo group (which doesn't take much time) and easily get people to leave here and flock to it. Why don't you? That question was asked of you at the other forum and you still haven't answered it.

I meant an invalid attack similar to ad hominem... antiquitarian fallacy or whatever it's called (even though that word has been used in the most incredibly retarded way to say the paleo diet is an antiquitarian fallacy). There are many fruitarian message boards out there as I've said before. Okay, you don't have to call your diet the Neo diet... but call it something other than the Paleo diet because it's contentious and just your opinion of what he ate.  

Think about it, fish oils are a wild animal fat. So wild animal fats are apparently healthy--else why supplement with them? Why do you need a wild animal fat supplement and loads of vitamins if today's fruits are so healthy?
Again, you're talking about COOKED meat. This is the RAW Paleo diet forum, remember? And we dispute that claim as regards raw flesh, obviously.

Because fruits I eat aren't fresh (sometimes weeks old), have had pesticides put on them, have been grown intensively and in poor soil and sometimes are genetically modified or artificially selected.

Wai Diet is the ultimate cure for Acne.  Wai Diet is already broadly considered as part of Raw Paleo Diet.

Wai diet says it's extremely low in raw vegetables. That's extremely stupid. What's the point in that?! Apart from salads I'm fairly low in vegetables, but that just doesn't make sense as a concept.  

(raw fruit + evoo + raw eggs + raw sea food, always eat your fruit with a fat so your blood sugar does not fluctuate)

****ING BULL****!!!!!  I HATE PEOPLE SAYING RUBBISH LIKE THAT. I *WANT* MY BLOOD SUGAR TO FLUCTUATE.

THE IDEA OF HIGH BLOOD SUGAR FROM RAW FRUIT IS COMPLETELY RETARDED NONSENSE BECAUSE IF YOU ATE TEN COOKIES, YOUR  BLOOD SUGAR WOULD GO HIGHER THAN YOU'D EVER GET WITH FRUIT!!!!

YOU NEED A LITTLE BLOOD SUGAR FLUCTUATING, THAT'S GOOD FOR YOU.

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT YOU DON'T? BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD YOU ON THE INTERNET????????? IT STEMS FROM OBESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE METABOLIC SYNDROME AND GREW TO HATE SUGAR BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE FROM YEARS AND YEARS OF ABUSE. I BET THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE HERE WHO WERE OBESE IS MONUMENTAL.

I BET ANYTHING THAT THERE ARE STUDIES OUT THERE AND THERE WILL BE MORE THAT SLIGHTLY FLUCTUATING BLOOD SUGAR AS IT WOULD IN FRUITS IS ACTUALLY A *HIGHLY* BENEFICIAL THING.

PALEO MAN DID NOT SAY: "DURRR OH GEE, I JUST ATE SOME BANANAS, I BETTER GET SOME NUTS AND FISH SO I CAN HAVE SOME FAT TO GO ALONG WITH THAT"

PALEO MAN IS/WAS PERFECTLY EVOLVED FOR IT!!!! YOU DO ***NOT*** KNOW BETTER THAN PALEO MAN!!!!! EXCUSE ME IF I'M GETTING EMOTIONAL OVER THIS, BUT THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT PALEO MAN AND IF THE PERSON WHO'S MEANT TO BE BEHIND IT IS SAYING THIS....

BLOOD SUGAR FLUCTUATING IS A STUPID *MYTH*, IT IS LIKE A *RELIGION* IT IS A *SUPERSTITION*. YOU DO *NOT* KNOW BETTER THAN PALEO MAN!!!!

BY ALL MEANS... IF YOU JUST BINGED ON RUBBISH FOODS, THEN TAKE SOME OIL/FAT. BUT DO *NOT* TELL ME OR ANYONE THAT THEY SHOULD BE TAKING THIS STUFF IF THEY EAT SOME DELICIOUS FRUIT.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2009, 01:15:20 am »
By my definition, you've crossed the line of appropriate discourse.  Rein it in, or I will start a thread in the moderators forum to discuss your suspension and banning.  Once that happens, you're well on your way out of here. 

My suggestion is that you ignore these others for the moment, and respond to my posts.  You have ignored my posts, and that's not good, because

1.  They make sense

2.  It makes me think you're trolling

Which just gets you banned. :)

So answer my posts about the 1300% difference between Masai and Kikuyu cavities,  and about the Inuit ease of birth, low rate of cavities, and lack of cancer on their all-meat/fish diet.

Or we may just ban you.

I'm doing my best to be nice, but you need to calm it down. :)

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2009, 01:46:36 am »
hey, here's a proposition: go live out in the wild. i think you'll find it would be literally impossible to stay alive if you only eat the scant amount of berries or fruits that may or may not be there seasonally. that's probably all you'll find that agrees with your proposed diet. eating animals is the only way to survive outside of civilization. and by the way, fish and eggs are probably the most difficult animal foods to obtain. eggs are extremely seasonal and there aren't enough nests to support even one human for any length of time. fish are much harder to catch if you don't have modern equipment. land animals would have been much easier to obtain by stalking and throwing something at it.

it really is common sense when you think about it. just ask yourself how an opportunistic human would sustain himself without civilization to provide his fruits and eggs regardless of season.

now, i will agree with you on part of your above post. like you said, IF paleo man found some yummy seasonal fruits, he probably wouldn't go looking for a fat to eat it with. he probably just ate it and enjoyed it. that's common sense in action again. i suggest you apply it to the big picture though. would paleo man rather have starved than eaten animals?

please, i'd like a coherent response.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2009, 03:50:13 am »
So answer my posts about the 1300% difference between Masai and Kikuyu cavities,  and about the Inuit ease of birth, low rate of cavities, and lack of cancer on their all-meat/fish diet.

Or we may just ban you.

I'm doing my best to be nice, but you need to calm it down. :)

cherimoya your points/questions were a bit tangential or hard to prove/disprove and that's why I didn't answer directly. I never said anything about easy/difficulty of birth for people who eat a lot of protein... I don't know why they have a lack of cancer, that's a good point.

As for the Masai vs Kikuyus...

Quote
The Masai are tall and strong... For their food throughout the centuries they have depended very largely on milk, meat and blood, reinforced with vegetables and fruits. In the Masai tribe, a study of 2,516 teeth in eighty-eight individuals distributed through several widely separated manyatas showed only four individuals with caries. These had a total of ten carious teeth, or only 0.4 per cent of the teeth attacked by tooth decay. In contrast with the Masai, the Kikuyu tribe are characterized by being primarily an agricultural people. Their chief articles of diet are sweet potatoes, corn, beans, and some bananas, millet, and Kafir corn, a variety of Indian millet. The women use special diets during gestation and lactation. The Kikuyus are not as tall as the Masai and physically they are much less rugged... A study of 1,041 teeth in thirty-three individuals showed fifty-seven teeth with caries or 5.5 per cent. There were 36.4 per cent of the individuals affected.

http://naturalhygienesociety.org/articles/teeth1.html

The Kikyus are an agricultural people and have been for a very long time, that's a clear reason as to why they would have so many more cavities.

hey, here's a proposition: go live out in the wild. i think you'll find it would be literally impossible to stay alive if you only eat the scant amount of berries or fruits that may or may not be there seasonally.

The chimps and other primates don't have that huge a problem with it. Not only do they find enough but they also have plenty of time to relax and socialise. The way you're talking is as though no fruits or vegetables grew at all during African winter and no primates would survive without being carnivorous. 

Think about it. If a baboon or gorilla can survive while only being a little carnivorous, then why on earth couldn't a human?! I mean sure, we need a bit more food.... that's part of why we have a huge brain, the economics of ecology works that one out itself without the need for us to go extinct. I think the main reason we developed such a huge brain is because of language.
 
that's probably all you'll find that agrees with your proposed diet. eating animals is the only way to survive outside of civilization. and by the way, fish and eggs are probably the most difficult animal foods to obtain. eggs are extremely seasonal and there aren't enough nests to support even one human for any length of time. fish are much harder to catch if you don't have modern equipment. land animals would have been much easier to obtain by stalking and throwing something at it.

I don't know about that all that, not to accuse but to me it seems a bit like you're making it up a bit as you go along. Apes often fish, bears also go diving for seafood a lot as I'm sure you've seen on a nature program. Humans could have done that to animals.... maybe you're right there!!! I don't know about eggs, it seems to me they wouldn't be so hard to pilfer at all once you know the right patterns/places to check.

it really is common sense when you think about it. just ask yourself how an opportunistic human would sustain himself without civilization to provide his fruits and eggs regardless of season.

Some things grow better in the summer, some (less) in the winter. Again you're completely ignoring the fact that millions of primates are around and survive every winter just fine.

now, i will agree with you on part of your above post. like you said, IF paleo man found some yummy seasonal fruits, he probably wouldn't go looking for a fat to eat it with. he probably just ate it and enjoyed it. that's common sense in action again. i suggest you apply it to the big picture though. would paleo man rather have starved than eaten animals?

Yes exactly, it's common sense. People get weird ideas and superstitions about fluctuating blood sugar and all that when it's all just to do with modern foods. If I could name one fault with modern humans it would be that they have a huge tendency to myths and superstitions and ideas such as eating some fat every time you eat some fruit... then going off and *juicing* fruit (not directed at the person who juices fruit in this thread, just in general a lot of "raw" people do). And this on the paleo forum itself... /facepalm.

Paleo man did what he could to get by, it doesn't mean it was always optimal. Paleo man ate a lot of insects too you know. Sure I guess it's nice to know that I could also eat protein and do fairly well on it, it's only in the past about 2 million years ago at most that we really separated a lot from the great apes though, did we really evolve that much in that little time? I doubt it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 03:58:59 am by SuperInfinity »

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2009, 05:05:52 am »
OK, let me make it very, very simple.

1.  The Masai had great teeth.  They ate almost all meat.

2.  The Kikuyu had worse teeth.  They ate very little meat.

3.  The Eskimo had great teeth.  They all almost all meat.

4.  I've posted and read on raw food message boards (vegan and not) for nearly 10 years.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard of raw vegans losing teeth.  I don't hear any RAFers with that problem. EVERYBODY HERE can also corroborate that, from their own experience.

5. Wild animals almost never have cavities, and their teeth are always straight.

6.  The Peruvian Indians, in Dr. Price's travels, had the BEST teeth, except for maybe the Maori.  The Peruvians ate lots of beans and corn, not wild, CULTIVATED. 

What's it take with you?  If you just read the book carefully, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Seriously, if I have to refute you ONE more time with something simple and obvious from Dr. Price's book, I'm starting the banning thread.  I'm sick of this.  I thought you had some good point that you might make at some point.  That's why I was putting up with you.  I'm pretty sure, now, that you don't.   
 

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2009, 07:11:45 am »
OK, SuperInfinity, you do seem pretty stressed now, so I'll try to give you a break by just responding to one of your points that you seemed to aim most squarely at me. But first I'll take a moment to find something we agree on. I think we agree that grains and dairy were not Paleo staples and are unhealthy foods--especially processed versions like biscuits and cakes. Hooray!  ;D

Quote
And why the HELL do people take "juice"?? It's STUPID.  People give out about blood sugar and then they go and gollup down juice!!!! Juice will raise your blood sugar like it was never supposed to, (yes... even if you take it unsweetened....).
Very confusing and again with the ad hominem, although at least it's mostly passively indirect. You said yourself at the other Paleo forum: "I have often picked up delicious blueberry juice when they're out of season," and pure blueberry juice is what I was drinking--at YOUR suggestion! Did you forget? Maybe I misunderstood something?

I don't "juice" fruits or veggies like a lot of people you've apparently encountered--maybe at your raw vegan forum. I know that fruit juices are not healthy. They are also addictive and I was trying to kick the habit (and I was already consuming far better beverages in general than the average person) until you came along and started talking about "delicious blueberry juice" (though I'm not blaming you, you were just the one who gave me the idea, I put it into action). I decided to give your suggestions a try before I go fully zero carb, to see how much fruits and carbs I can handle these days, and I need to clear out my remaining carb foods before going ZC anyway. I was amazed at how rapidly they affected my health in a negative way. Luckily, I know that ZC RPD just as rapidly rejuvenates the health and I think I'm in decent enough shape to experiment with your unique diet without doing serious harm to myself.

So tell me what to eat then and I'll consider giving it a try--although I'll definitely be skipping the peanut shells ;D --and this time please don't change your mind after the fact.

BTW, isn't it interesting, in comparison to fruit juice, that beef and chicken broth do not seem to have the same negative effect and are actually used to treat illness (especially when bones and marrow are included)? Why do you think that is?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2009, 07:21:20 am »
we are not "other primates." i dont know about you but i consider myself a homo sapien. i require different foods than other monkeys and apes. if your only rebuttal is that other primates eat lots of fruit then i guess im kind of done with the conversation... good luck

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2009, 07:50:56 am »
Homo sapien as exclusive frugivore is a myth...Accept that self-evidence as manifest in your tooth compromisation (I did!)...

Fruitarians are always thinking how they can select correctly tree-ripened wild/heirloom fruits or adopting mouth rinsing protocols to keep the pH of the mouth's microenvironment balanced...Typically, this pathetic practice is far removed from the rugged survivalism that brought us thus far in the complex of Earth's challenges (to the point of undermining our nature!). Gaia does not respect human fruitarianism (there's only nature's version of animal welfare, which is kill naturally, or be killed (or defend/poison/paralyse/run/hide/etc.))

It's all nonsense when you realise that your teeth can match any offense, given correct nutrition, particularly an abundance of fat-soluble vitamins - those same vitamins that past tribes presented in abundance to their burgeoning/young families (knowing that their so-called equivalent precursors in the plant kingdom were far less than equivalent (or available/bio-available) by many measures!). Some tribes even file(d) teeth to increase sharpness, which heal(ed) quickly on their traditional diet abundant in animal lipids.

Surely, after some ass-kicking from nature already, you'd understand that your dietary principles do not reconcile with her good will?!

Your long-flogged, futile argumentation now constitutes a waste of time and surely now, the thread must be reaching its conclusion...

I suppose that good people can be at different points in their journey, but given something as severe and previously well-recognised as fruitarian tooth loss, you must really be uttering your cry for help with the intention of changing your ways given the appropriate prompting...

I'd urge you to be open-minded and ignore the fruitarian propagandism (a la durianrider, 80/10/10 crew et al)...Listen to the internal/innate voice of reason and load up on your already massively depleted store of vitamins, before more metabolic manifestations begin to take their toll on you...
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2009, 08:06:50 am »
By the way, I like your alias SuperInfinity! I might adopt SuperPrime as my alter-ego alias...
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2009, 08:26:09 am »
Okay I have to say something first. Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. I am feeling good with it, it's just annoying to have such a cold. I honestly don't know how I could have gotten it. I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? Well I do know that young people tend to get more colds than older people but when older people get them it hits them much worse... and I certainly feel good even with this cold. I don't know.

And the second thing is... (after I got the cold), when I was shopping I decided to get peanuts and fish rather than my usual fruit and veg. I don't really know why, possibly because of I just wanted to eat them fast and also listening to people like you. I also got a small bottle of cod liver oil while waiting for my fish supplements... so... I'm not really a fruitarian anymore... not that I ever really was, except according to beyondveg.com which takes the percentage by WEIGHT. The funny thing is I ate the big bag of peanuts anyway and gobbled down two tins of fish... my alimentary canal gets what it wants. I wanted it so I ate it. It's always worked for fruit and I even lost substantial weight on it... but the whole concept of wanting food and yet not eating it is a big no-no for me... and in fact probably everyone long-term. Call it vanity but I wouldn't be comfortable with the weight I would put on and call it self-gratification but I wouldn't like to eat so little or to miss out on so much good fruit. *shrugs* I don't know what will happen. If you're honestly trying to pick out Herbert Shelton who lived until he was 90 as a 100% fruitarian as being proof that fruitarianism is bad then I don't know what to say. I genuinely hope people on your diet live until 100 as well, but I truly believe only if you take it a lot more in moderation. Look how moderate I am with what I ate today... I somehow feel like this was a slip or falling off the wagon... but I premeditatively did it, I do it a lot. I'm not trying to be a fruitarian... I have coffee and tea every day. *shrugs* I don't know. You're the guys mainly saying that I am.
  
OK, SuperInfinity, you do seem pretty stressed now, so I'll try to give you a break by just responding to one of your points that you seemed to aim most squarely at me.

You know that's funny because I was going to say something like "note: this isn't being aimed at anyone in particular in this thread". But then I thought better of it because I didn't want to mention your name!

But first I'll take a moment to find something we agree on. I think we agree that grains and dairy were not Paleo staples and are unhealthy foods--especially processed versions like biscuits and cakes. Hooray!  ;D

Wooh! I agree that most people here are very smart and savvy about their foods. If you even mention or condone raw in other forums you can get very strange and hostile reactions, calling it bs and all that... these are the people that will get diabetes and cardiovascular disease one day.  

Very confusing and again with the ad hominem, although at least it's mostly passively indirect. You said yourself at the other Paleo forum: "I have often picked up delicious blueberry juice when they're out of season," and pure blueberry juice is what I was drinking--at YOUR suggestion! Did you forget? Maybe I misunderstood something?

Ha... I meant the people who go home and throw everything into a juicer!!!!! NOT people who take the best fruit that are out of season like that. I find it bad that even on the raw forum that I like they even have their own *board* about it. Well I give you props for the illusion of a contradiction and pulling that out... blueberry juice is the ONLY juice I have taken like that in a very long time though and ONLY when blueberries aren't available. This year I'm not sure I'll take it anymore, I can probably find frozen blueberries somewhere... or maybe I can freeze them myself. I also try to eat apples or some other fruit with it... so I get fibre and perhaps other things in the original blueberries!!!! I'm sorry if I appeared to cross lines with you a bit there, but some juice like that with other fruit isn't much of a problem I think.

I don't "juice" fruits or veggies like a lot of people you've apparently encountered--maybe at your raw vegan forum. I know that fruit juices are not healthy. They are also addictive and I was trying to kick the habit (and I was already consuming far better beverages in general than the average person) until you came along and started talking about "delicious blueberry juice" (though I'm not blaming you, you were just the one who gave me the idea, I put it into action). I decided to give your suggestions a try before I go fully zero carb, to see how much fruits and carbs I can handle these days, and I need to clear out my remaining carb foods before going ZC anyway. I was amazed at how rapidly they affected my health in a negative way. Luckily, I know that ZC RPD just as rapidly rejuvenates the health and I think I'm in decent enough shape to experiment with your unique diet without doing serious harm to myself.

Oh god I'm losing hope for you...

So tell me what to eat then and I'll consider giving it a try--although I'll definitely be skipping the peanut shells ;D --and this time please don't change your mind after the fact.

Eat whatever fruit you want... try eating a few apples instead of your usual raw animal protein. Apples are a nice, easy food to eat. They don't give too much harsh sugar and are nice to digest. I love them.

BTW, isn't it interesting, in comparison to fruit juice, that beef and chicken broth do not seem to have the same negative effect and are actually used to treat illness (especially when bones and marrow are included)? Why do you think that is?

I do not know why that is but considering it's either mainstream medicine or local tradition that are behind it... I don't have much faith in either so... I wouldn't count on it being down to any actual valid or half-INTELLIGENT reason.

we are not "other primates." i dont know about you but i consider myself a homo sapien. i require different foods than other monkeys and apes. if your only rebuttal is that other primates eat lots of fruit then i guess im kind of done with the conversation... good luck

You discount the argument that there is NO other ape that's carnivorous...? That's fine, but considering we're only about 3.2 million years departed from them and share many, many other traits I doubt we're really that different.

Homo sapien as exclusive frugivore is a myth...Accept that self-evidence as manifest in your tooth compromisation (I did!)...

Fruitarians are always thinking how they can select correctly tree-ripened wild/heirloom fruits or adopting mouth rinsing protocols to keep the pH of the mouth's microenvironment balanced...Typically, this pathetic practice is far removed from the rugged survivalism that brought us thus far in the complex of Earth's challenges (to the point of undermining our nature!). Gaia does not respect human fruitarianism (there's only nature's version of animal welfare, which is kill naturally, or be killed (or defend/poison/paralyse/run/hide/etc.))

It's all nonsense when you realise that your teeth can match any offense, given correct nutrition, particularly an abundance of fat-soluble vitamins - those same vitamins that past tribes presented in abundance to their burgeoning/young families (knowing that their so-called equivalent precursors in the plant kingdom were far less than equivalent (or available/bio-available) by many measures!). Some tribes even file(d) teeth to increase sharpness, which heal(ed) quickly on their traditional diet abundant in animal lipids.

Surely, after some ass-kicking from nature already, you'd understand that your dietary principles do not reconcile with her good will?!

Your long-flogged, futile argumentation now constitutes a waste of time and surely now, the thread must be reaching its conclusion...

I suppose that good people can be at different points in their journey, but given something as severe and previously well-recognised as fruitarian tooth loss, you must really be uttering your cry for help with the intention of changing your ways given the appropriate prompting...

I'd urge you to be open-minded and ignore the fruitarian propagandism (a la durianrider, 80/10/10 crew et al)...Listen to the internal/innate voice of reason and load up on your already massively depleted store of vitamins, before more metabolic manifestations begin to take their toll on you...

Again, I am not a fruitarian. 80/10/10 is what you'd get from being a pure vegan as there is substantial protein in raw plants. What you crowd seem to be suggesting is 10/20/70, which is far worse.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 08:34:09 am by SuperInfinity »

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2009, 08:28:38 am »
Superinfinity said:

Quote
Okay I have to say something first. Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. I am feeling good with it, it's just annoying to have such a cold. I honestly don't know how I could have gotten it. I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? Well I do know that young people tend to get more colds than older people but when older people get them it hits them much worse... and I certainly feel good even with this cold. I don't know.

In 1.6 years of my raw paleo diet since began with wai diet and slowly increasing my fat intake and lowering carbs... I have never gotten a cold.  Amazing huh? 
----


Come on guys... Let's put this thread in perspective:

(1) What paleo diet, in which region, at what period in time are we talking about?
- and were the paleo people at that time and that region healthy or just surviving?
- honestly, everything is speculation.

(2) My modern idea of Paleo Diet is does it work?  Especially on you.  And how long has it been working so far.  Can you replicate this success with your kids and loved ones?
- I'm not practicing raw paleo diet because of any dogma, I'm just looking for what makes me achieve higher levels of health.

I'm sure all of us are in search of better health and not just about imitating some conceived cavemen.  Where earth conditions, flora, fauna, air, gravity, temperature, solar, lunar may have been pretty much different than it is today.  

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2009, 10:27:22 am »
Okay I have to say something first. Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. I am feeling good with it, it's just annoying to have such a cold. I honestly don't know how I could have gotten it. I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? Well I do know that young people tend to get more colds than older people but when older people get them it hits them much worse... and I certainly feel good even with this cold. I don't know.

    I tried loading up on the best quality vitamin C supplements, back when I was vegan.  They didn't do much more than make me gassy and stink.  My health did not improve on them.

Eat whatever fruit you want... try eating a few apples instead of your usual raw animal protein. Apples are a nice, easy food to eat. They don't give too much harsh sugar and are nice to digest. I love them.

 
    Raw animal protein works for my body.  Raw apples really not.  There is no reason for me to go against my body like that by eating food that disagrees with it rather than food that assists my health.


Again, I am not a fruitarian. 80/10/10 is what you'd get from being a pure vegan as there is substantial protein in raw plants. What you crowd seem to be suggesting is 10/20/70, which is far worse.

    I vote by experience for 5/5/90 as the healthiest diet for me.


BTW, isn't it interesting, in comparison to fruit juice, that beef and chicken broth do not seem to have the same negative effect and are actually used to treat illness (especially when bones and marrow are included)? Why do you think that is?

    I find fruit juice way too acidic.  I'll only drink it if where I am has nothing else to offer in the way as calories, like at a Whole Foods Market juice bar.

I try almost every food out on myself, and then don't necessarily adopt it, even if it doesn't affect me; because I prefer raw.  Example in case is I have made a beef bone broth and I have made a chicken both broth.  The beef bone broth actually went down very well and I got no reactions.  The chicken bone broth was a totally other story.  Then I read on WAP about fats in marrow and which species of animals' marrow cooks well and which don't healthwise and why, and now I understand.  I would take juice over chicken broth, and beef broth over juice.
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2009, 10:49:48 am »

In 1.6 years of my raw paleo diet since began with wai diet and slowly increasing my fat intake and lowering carbs... I have never gotten a cold.  Amazing huh? 

Well my cold seems to be going now, I hope it will be gone by the morning perhaps. It really didn't make me "miserable" or anything, colds never do that to me. The very, very weird thing is that I seem to be getting more colds lately and this one struck me as I have never had as much watery fluids come out my nose in one day my life! Could it be that the fruits *caused* the colds? No.... because my diet beforehand was objectively worse. I'm not making it up about not liking meats much, they actually don't really appeal to me... except cooked chicken at my parents' house or sausages if I get them (which I don't anymore) maybe. I haven't gotten a cold that lasted over a day for years, I'm sure it's because of my hugely better nutrition all that time.

Come on guys... Let's put this thread in perspective:

(1) What paleo diet, in which region, at what period in time are we talking about?
- and were the paleo people at that time and that region healthy or just surviving?
- honestly, everything is speculation.

(2) My modern idea of Paleo Diet is does it work?  Especially on you.  And how long has it been working so far.  Can you replicate this success with your kids and loved ones?
- I'm not practicing raw paleo diet because of any dogma, I'm just looking for what makes me achieve higher levels of health.

I'm sure all of us are in search of better health and not just about imitating some conceived cavemen.  Where earth conditions, flora, fauna, air, gravity, temperature, solar, lunar may have been pretty much different than it is today.  

I'll let others answer those questions as I don't want to be hogging the topic.

However isn't it good that at least we know we should live as we were evolved to live? Many people don't seem to know or understand that at all... they fiddle around with diets, and cookbooks, and recipes, and mixing, and taking oils with fat (sorry Goodsamaritan!!!) etc. It's basically pseudoscience... at least we're wise enough to look at paleo man and what he ate.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2009, 12:43:17 pm »
However isn't it good that at least we know we should live as we were evolved to live? Many people don't seem to know or understand that at all... they fiddle around with diets, and cookbooks, and recipes, and mixing, and taking oils with fat (sorry Goodsamaritan!!!) etc. It's basically pseudoscience... at least we're wise enough to look at paleo man and what he ate.

If you are referring to extra virgin olive oil in Wai Diet, I never indulged in extra virgin olive oil because it tasted bad from my point of view.  I did the fruits, eggs and raw fish and Wai Diet did wonders for my health.  It just got boring so I added land animals and now technically I'm on raw paleo diet.
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2009, 03:42:45 pm »
... Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. ... I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? ... I don't know.

... I also got a small bottle of cod liver oil while waiting for my fish supplements... so... ... The funny thing is I ate the big bag of peanuts anyway and gobbled down two tins of fish... ... Look how moderate I am with what I ate today... I somehow feel like this was a slip or falling off the wagon... but I premeditatively did it, I do it a lot. I'm not trying to be a fruitarian... I have coffee and tea every day. ..

    Do you realize this is supposed to be a raw forum and tins of fish are never raw?
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2009, 03:59:20 pm »
Peanuts?  --- Barf
Tins of fish? --- Barf
MegaDoses of Vitamin C? --- Barf

I understand those are wartime / emergency time food.
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2009, 04:05:54 pm »
    I got very sick last time I ate peanuts, and the peanuts were local, fresh and raw.  I'm not talking a cold.  I'm talking my lymph system stopping.
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Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2009, 10:13:53 pm »
    Do you realize this is supposed to be a raw forum and tins of fish are never raw?

I told you, I don't really trust the people behind the raw animal protein. I'm going to try to get raw tuna as I hear that's supposed to be an exceptionally safe one, but whether I'll stick to it or not I don't know. Idealistic as you may like it, sometimes you have to just do as 99%+ of other people are doing. I wouldn't dream of just pulling red meat off the aisle and eating it raw.

It's not the being raw that I don't trust (even though there are many fools out there that would think like that), it's the people behind it. The people who give the animals chemicals etc. You're putting your trust in them. I personally need to find out lots more about pesticides etc. in my life (and it seems really hard to really get into this and get this sort of information, textbooks on pesticides go for over $100 on Amazon and might end up being next to useless)... but at least I'm falling in with the crowd and am not exposed to animal medications/hormones. It's a bit like drinking milk!!! Going with the crowd sometimes can actually be a good idea. Let's remember: l love fruit so much I want to eat it all the time... I'm just talking about my comparatively small about of animal protein per week.

Eggs have all of the amino acids we need and in the right quantaties. They also have choline, lecithin(?)... I'm no expert, but I think they're a pretty good source of meat as well. I scramble them just a little bit... partly for the taste and partly because again, neither the agriculture sector or government health regulator give a rat's ass about people who take them raw... they'd likely just say "we told you so". Otherwise I would absolutely take my fish raw and probably eggs as well depending on how they taste.

Wrongham et al may be stupid, but I'll bet you that if you ate a raw + lightly cooked/steamed paleo diet, that you may be worse off... you may be a fatter... you may not enjoy your food as much.... but you would still be doing extremely well compared to people who take dairy, bread, cake, alcohol etc. all the time who are in another league entirely.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 10:21:43 pm by SuperInfinity »

 

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