Author Topic: Journal of a carnivore  (Read 38912 times)

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carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2009, 03:52:26 pm »
This is the third day I eat only at the end of the day :
My symptoms seem better, except for the high pulse and the medium energy. I still don't want to work-out.
But I feel good. I think my body needs time to heal, and fasting all day is a good opportunity. It allows also the body to replenish the digestive juices, enzymes, etc.

Yesterday it was pemmican (600g in 2 sittings). If I don't overeat pemmican, I can digest it more easily than ground beef. Probably because of the reduced volume. But pemmican everyday is not a good idea for me. I alternate between pemmican/ground meat/plain meat

I want to stick to this WOE a few weeks, to see how it goes!

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2009, 04:03:02 pm »
We learn that chemical analysis of the bones of paleolithic man is identical to the chemical analysis of wild African lions.

So yes, our ancestors were omnivores, but not in the paleolithic, and not in good health.
We have been proving this for ~12,000 years. Enough!

Pre-humans, before paleotimes, were almost vegetarian. It probably remains in our body some ability to digest plants.
Vegetables have at least been used during paleotimes as medecine, and surely in times of famine. The bones you refer to is not representative of all human during the paleolithic which lasts a few million of years.

Even my dog eat grass every day (and blackberries now). Not much yes!

William

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 12:30:42 am »
Pre-humans, before paleotimes, were almost vegetarian. It probably remains in our body some ability to digest plants.
Vegetables have at least been used during paleotimes as medecine, and surely in times of famine. The bones you refer to is not representative of all human during the paleolithic which lasts a few million of years.

Even my dog eat grass every day (and blackberries now). Not much yes!

Looks like there is some confusion here - I care not for the experience of pre-humans. Irrelevant IMO.

To me, the only relevant experience is that of our ancestors who are said to be genetically identical (genes,DNA, whatever), and lived in perfect health all their lives.
The word "human" is a judgement; I think we should use "Man", as in the race of Man technically known as home sapiens sapiens.

So the bones I refer to represent those whose diet we should copy, and I do the best I can and it is working for me. Faute de mieux.



carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 02:44:50 am »
Looks like there is some confusion here - I care not for the experience of pre-humans. Irrelevant IMO.

To me, the only relevant experience is that of our ancestors who are said to be genetically identical (genes,DNA, whatever), and lived in perfect health all their lives.
The word "human" is a judgement; I think we should use "Man", as in the race of Man technically known as home sapiens sapiens.

So the bones I refer to represent those whose diet we should copy, and I do the best I can and it is working for me. Faute de mieux.

Human has a very long lineage, and a very long history as well, that have shaped him. Ignoring it, and retaining only one period, would be an error in my point of view.
We have ample exemples of people eating lots of vegetables with good health (like the Kitavan and the Kuna indians).

I don't eat a carnivore diet because one have found some bones from paleolithic that were chemically identical to carnivores.
Yes, paleolithic man was probably highly carnivore, but I can't be absolutely sure. I was not there!
I eat such a diet because it works for me. But I would not hesitate to eat a moderate amount of natural carbs if it was better for me.

Moi aussi je fais de mon mieux!

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2009, 03:19:10 am »
We have ample exemples of people eating lots of vegetables with good health (like the Kitavan and the Kuna indians).
That's true, but Western people with damaged metabolisms are unable to handle such amounts of carbs, so in order to heal they must go into low-carb diet, preferably rawpaleo
Besides there are indeed some examples of healthy tribes which ate quite a lot of fruits and vegetables; but when we are talking about superior health there is only one answer - rawpaleodiet based mainly upon meat and fat  :)
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2009, 03:00:17 pm »
That's true, but Western people with damaged metabolisms are unable to handle such amounts of carbs, so in order to heal they must go into low-carb diet, preferably rawpaleo
Besides there are indeed some examples of healthy tribes which ate quite a lot of fruits and vegetables; but when we are talking about superior health there is only one answer - rawpaleodiet based mainly upon meat and fat  :)

I TOTALLY AGREE.
My point was to say that healthy people, in  certain conditions, can handle quite a large amount of plant food without troubles apparently. And it means something about the past of human.

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2009, 03:43:43 pm »
My point was to say that healthy people, in  certain conditions, can handle quite a large amount of plant food without troubles apparently. And it means something about the past of human.
I agree with you 100%, but, as you said, it regards only healthy people who haven't screwed up their organisms
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2009, 05:15:47 pm »
I agree with you 100%, but, as you said, it regards only healthy people who haven't screwed up their organisms

...which is not our case.
Carnivorism is the best we can do for us!

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2009, 05:26:51 pm »
Carnivorism is the best we can do for us!
Yeah, but it is not obligate carnivorism, so we should rather eat some fruits like berries (even coyots do eat them) - our brain (and several other tissues) needs some glucose and I think it's better to give it with food rather than resorting to gluconeogenesis, depleting the amount of proteins
human brain needs much more energy that animal's brain
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 05:33:09 pm by Hannibal »
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2009, 12:55:53 am »
Yeah, but it is not obligate carnivorism, so we should rather eat some fruits like berries (even coyots do eat them) - our brain (and several other tissues) needs some glucose and I think it's better to give it with food rather than resorting to gluconeogenesis, depleting the amount of proteins
human brain needs much more energy that animal's brain

Well, I can't eat berries because of the seeds that hurt my gut.

What will you eat when berries won't be any more available, after the season ?
What is the problem with gluconeogenesis, as long as meat is in sufficient amount ?

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2009, 02:59:50 am »
..... I think it's better to give it with food rather than resorting to gluconeogenesis, depleting the amount of proteins
human brain needs much more energy that animal's brain

What makes you believe that gluconeogenesis isn't happening all the time?  How do you know that the glycerol of the fat you are eating isn't turned into glucose as well?  Isn't it is a bit presumptuous to think that we understand these metabolic mechanisms well enough to make statements like this? 

I know that the idea that gluconeogenesis is turned on and off like a light switch is a popular theme amongst the followers of The Bear, however, he's never produced one bit of scientific evidence to back up his rather dubious pronouncements, even though it has been asked of him many times, and he insists he has it.  I believe his last excuse when challenged for evidence, was that all the studies that support his beliefs have been misplaced and he can't find them in his vast collection of data.  It is also fascinating that no one else knows of these studies that The Bear references.  If they were real, they'd be published somewhere.

My own personal experience has demonstrated that part of ALL the protein we eat has an effect in rising blood glucose - regardless of whether carbs are consumed.  The problem with seeing is effect is that in a typical modern diet the protein fraction is so small that it is totally swamped by the carb load.  If you eat a known small quantity of carb and track BG I've found BG rises.  If I follow those carbs with a meal of meat and fat, BG rises further.   There certainly was no “need” for additional BG but the body converted something in the meat to cause BG to rise.

Lex 

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2009, 03:38:47 am »
Well, I can't eat berries because of the seeds that hurt my gut.
Ok, so maybe some other fruits will be not problematic for you? What about honey/ honeycomb?
What will you eat when berries won't be any more available, after the season ?
I will eat those, which I did freeze during the season. :)
Besides honey and honeycomb.
What is the problem with gluconeogenesis, as long as meat is in sufficient amount ?
Gluconeogenesis isn't bad - I didn't say that. But I think that it is more economical to supply some carbs with food; besides, when you eat berries, for example, you've got so many beneficial ingredients, that are not present in meat
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2009, 03:14:04 pm »
But I think that it is more economical to supply some carbs with food; besides, when you eat berries, for example, you've got so many beneficial ingredients, that are not present in meat

What evidence do you have that there are ingredients in berries that our bodies require that are not present in meat?  I have eaten nothing but meat and fat for almost 4 years now and have no deficiencies and my overall health and blood chemistry continue to improve.  My health is far better today than it was when I was eating carbs of any sort and I have the lab tests to prove it.  Here is an interesting post about fruits and veggies in our diets:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Fruit%20and%20vegetables%20%281%29%20re%20post

Peter's HyperLipid blog is a wealth of information and it is all backed up with published studies and hard evidence.

Lex

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2009, 03:42:41 pm »
What evidence do you have that there are ingredients in berries that our bodies require that are not present in meat? 
Lutein in blueberries and bilberries is proven to definitely help one's eyesight. Have you got lutein in meat and fat?
I have eaten nothing but meat and fat for almost 4 years now and have no deficiencies and my overall health and blood chemistry continue to improve.  My health is far better today than it was when I was eating carbs of any sort and I have the lab tests to prove it. 
Yes, I know that meat and fat diet is very good for you. But you're not representative to overall population. The majoraty of people do better adding some carbs like berries to one's diet; but apart from that - meat and fat, of course :)
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline wodgina

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2009, 05:12:51 pm »
Does the majority really do better with some carbs? Sounds like acculturation to me.

Show me a plant product that has higher levels of lutein than meat and fat (eye balls)

There is nothing in plant matter that our bodies need.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2009, 05:48:16 pm »
Does the majority really do better with some carbs? Sounds like acculturation to me.
Many people that I know do better with even a little bit of carbs in their diet (e.g. 20 grams) than with zero-carb. I myself have got some zero-carb days and that's ok; yet not in the long term
But if you do better on pure meat and fat diet all the time - eat this way :)
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Nicola

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2009, 09:00:49 pm »
How Can Eating Excess Protein Raise Blood Glucose?

I do know that high blood glucose can convert proteins in the body to Advanced Glycation Endproducts (AGEs), that accumulate in our eyes, kidneys, arteries, nerve endings, joints and skin, causing stiffening and the physical degeneration of old age. I don't know the level of blood glucose at which these changes start to take place.

Something to consider is that the accumulation of AGEs may be the reason that the explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson noted in 1936 that Eskimo women who had lived on a zero-carb diet all their lives, "usually seem as old at sixty as our women do at eighty."


http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2009, 05:19:50 am »
My point was to say that healthy people, in  certain conditions, can handle quite a large amount of plant food without troubles apparently. And it means something about the past of human.

I find this a particularly interesting statement since it is the consuption of plant foods that have caused so much misery to so many.   I don't think your point is supported by the measurable degneration of the health of the general population as carbs in our diets increase.  It is now 'normal' to have Type 2 diabetes.  There are now more advertisments on Televsion for drugs to address the degenerative conditions caused by eating carbs than any thing else - by about 2 to 1.  Apparently as a group, we are not 'handleing' large amounts of plant food all that well.

Lex

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2009, 10:31:14 am »
Lutein in blueberries and bilberries is proven to definitely help one's eyesight. Have you got lutein in meat and fat? Yes, I know that meat and fat diet is very good for you. But you're not representative to overall population. The majoraty of people do better adding some carbs like berries to one's diet; but apart from that - meat and fat, of course :)
Yes, there is lutein in the organs and egg yolks of chickens that eat lutein-containing plants, and animal sources of lutein are actually the most bioavailable (see below), as with most nutrients. My guess is that lutein also could be obtained from the eyeballs and other flesh of chickens and other animals that eat it, since it apparently is in the eyeballs of humans (how else would it improve vision unless it went into the eyes?). Remember, people didn't used to think there was any vitamin C in meat and organs, but now we know better due to the Inuit, Stefansson and others. The quantity of a nutrient in a food is generally less important than its bioavailability. This is why vegetarians have to take vitamin B12 supplements despite there being B12 present in fermented soy products, seaweeds and algae.

I don't know whether people do better with berries in the diet or not. I hope so as I love berries. Do you have evidence to support your claim that the majority do?

Click here: Lutein in chicken liver  (see also http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17368787)

Lutein in broiler chick livers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1409229

Lutein also accumulates in the spleen: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/10/1802

Lutein: Are You Getting Enough of This Anti-Aging Antioxidant Powerhouse?
by www.SixWise.com

"Lutein is found in a wide variety of fruits and vegetables, but it appears that the best source of lutein is from egg yolks, simply because it is more readily absorbed by the body.

In fact, when 10 volunteers ate different sources of lutein (spinach, eggs or one of two types of lutein supplements, each of which provided 6 mg of lutein per day), eggs came out on top. Those who ate eggs as their lutein source had blood levels of lutein that were about three times higher than that of those who ate other lutein sources.

The researchers suspect that other components in the egg yolk, such as lecithin, are responsible for its superior absorbability."

[Note: the lecithin in eggs is different from and superior to that in soy--I do not recommend soy lecithin]


>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2009, 11:55:29 am »
Yes, there is lutein in the organs and egg yolks of chickens that eat lutein-containing plants, and animal sources of lutein are actually the most bioavailable (see below), as with most nutrients.
Yeah, you are right ;)
But I think that there're some others "precious" ingredients in berries.
What about vitamin B17 (Amygdalin) that is found in aboundance in apricot seeds? Is there any animal counterpart?
I don't know whether people do better with berries in the diet or not. I hope so as I love berries. Do you have evidence to support your claim that the majority do?
I said that people generally do better with some carbs in their diet than with zero-carb. All the Polish people that I know, who experimented with zero-carb, eventutally realized that this not for them, that they do better even with a little bit of carbs (e.g. 20-30 g).
What about rawpaleodiet community? How many of us eat only meat and fat and do better with zero-carb rawpaleodiet? As I know it's definitely minority. Am I wrong?
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2009, 12:23:11 pm »
I find this a particularly interesting statement since it is the consuption of plant foods that have caused so much misery to so many.   I don't think your point is supported by the measurable degneration of the health of the general population as carbs in our diets increase.  It is now 'normal' to have Type 2 diabetes.  There are now more advertisments on Televsion for drugs to address the degenerative conditions caused by eating carbs than any thing else - by about 2 to 1.  Apparently as a group, we are not 'handleing' large amounts of plant food all that well.

Lex

You maybe all right Lex.  ;)
I should be still influenced by conventional dietetic that deified fruits and vegetables.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2009, 09:01:31 pm »
...What about rawpaleodiet community? How many of us eat only meat and fat and do better with zero-carb rawpaleodiet? As I know it's definitely minority. Am I wrong?
Yes, that is evidence and thanks for sharing what you base your view on, though I am also aware of another forum larger than this one where the people claim to do better on zero carb than they do on small amounts of carbs. I don't know who is right and it seems to be a sensitive issue, so I will try to stay out of the argument. I suspect that some people do better on VLC and some on ZC.

I was actually curious as to whether you might know of studies on this. The only study I am aware of that comes close is the Bellevue experiment, which looked only at ZC in isolation. Have there been any studies that compared ZC to VLC?

...and I am actually rooting for berries, BTW, since I like the taste of them. :D
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

carnivore

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Blood test results
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2009, 01:15:01 am »
Here are my blood test results. I am on a mainly raw carnivorous (zerocarbs) diet for 8 months, eating mainly beef (grass-fed and grain-fed), and some horse, pork, lamb. I also eat tallow and pemmican, and clarified raw organic butter.

FBG = 0.96 g/l (0.74-1.06)
A1C = 5.5% (<6%)
Urea = 0.52 g/l (0.17-0.43)

Total cholesterol = 4.31 g/l (<2)
HDL = 0.65 g/l (>0.4)
Triglycerids = 1.47 g/l (<1.5)
LDL = 3.37 g/l (0.9-1.6)
VLDL = 0.29 g/l (0.05-0.25)

Vitamin B9 (folic acid) = 2.94 (>5.38)

Fasting blood glucose is pretty high, like my A1C and my urea is too high.
LDL is very high and VLDL is a bit too high.
Folic acid is too low.
Triglycerids could be lower.

I believe I still eat too much fat, as my pulse raises to 90 after eating, and I have some unpleasant symptoms.
I'll try to stick to one meal a day for the next months, to see if health improves.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2009, 11:23:02 am »
IF we are all eating an abnormal diet, should we expect normal blood test results?
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carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2009, 03:01:56 pm »
IF we are all eating an abnormal diet, should we expect normal blood test results?

You're right.
On a carnivorous diet, HDL should be high and triglycerids should be low. The rest is pretty irrelevant.

 

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