Author Topic: raw meat vs. frozen  (Read 22502 times)

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Offline Iguana

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2009, 03:22:46 am »
http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/selection-and-storage-of-foods-part-i/does-freezing-harm-foods.html :

"When a food is frozen, its water expands. This causes two immediately destructive occurrences:
(...)"

Thanks Fred, very interesting ! GC Burger told us about their experiments with their pigs left outside in freezing weather. There was frozen apples on the ground and they let the pigs eat it. They showed no sign of troubles as long as the apples were still frozen, thaw happening in the pigs mouths. But once the temperature rose over 0°C, the apples thawed on the ground before the pigs ate it. Then they showed some troubles - GC Burger didn't elaborate and we didn't ask him what kind of troubles, but here's what he told us, concluding that it's probably OK to eat frozen food as long as thawing happens inside the mouth !

Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

William

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2009, 08:34:09 am »
Yes there is sugar in raw meat. Cooking meat creates much more AGEs than aging meat. 

No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.

We do not cook.

See here: http://andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages.html
2.3    Glycations and AGEs, Defined

All the diverse sugars, and other carbohydrates we eat, are digested to simple sugars and absorbed into the blood stream.  These blood sugars, glucose, galactose and fructose are reactive reducing agents.  That is, they are capable of bonding to protein or lipid (fat) molecules, usually on an amine or a lysine group.  So, like any fuel, they can be dangerous.

Glycation occurs when a reducing sugar molecule bonds to a protein or lipid (fatty acid) molecule without the controlling action of an enzyme which would normally control where the sugar bonds and its orientation.  This puts the sugar molecule in the “wrong place,” on the protein or lipid molecule, thus forming a mis-shaped molecule our bodies cannot metabolize or dispose of easily.

carnivore

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2009, 01:55:31 pm »
No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.

You are free to believe what you want man!

Offline Hannibal

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2009, 03:18:34 pm »
No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.
Yes there are trace amounts of carbs in meat. Try horse meat and you'll see, that it is lightly sweet
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Nicola

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2009, 07:18:14 pm »
No, there is no sugar in raw meat, otherwise it would taste sweet.

We do not cook.

See here: http://andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages.html
2.3    Glycations and AGEs, Defined

All the diverse sugars, and other carbohydrates we eat, are digested to simple sugars and absorbed into the blood stream.  These blood sugars, glucose, galactose and fructose are reactive reducing agents.  That is, they are capable of bonding to protein or lipid (fat) molecules, usually on an amine or a lysine group.  So, like any fuel, they can be dangerous.

Glycation occurs when a reducing sugar molecule bonds to a protein or lipid (fatty acid) molecule without the controlling action of an enzyme which would normally control where the sugar bonds and its orientation.  This puts the sugar molecule in the “wrong place,” on the protein or lipid molecule, thus forming a mis-shaped molecule our bodies cannot metabolize or dispose of easily.

What about AGEs and protein


http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/07/14/insulin-part-one.aspx

Glycation

Everyone knows that oxygen causes damage, but unfortunately the press has not been as kind to publicize glycation. Glycation is the same as oxidation except substitute the word glucose. When you glycate something you combine it with glucose. Glucose combines with anything else really; it‘s a very sticky molecule.

Just take sugar on your fingers. It‘s very sticky. It sticks specifically to proteins. So the glycation of proteins is extremely important. If it sticks around a while it produces what are called advanced glycated end products (A.G.E.s).

That acronym is not an accident. If you can turn over, or re-manufacture, the protein that‘s good, and it increases the rate of protein turnover if you are lucky. Glycation damages the protein to the extent that white blood cells will come around and gobble it up and get rid of it, so then you have to produce more, putting more of a strain on your ability to repair and maintain your body.

That is the best alternative; the worst alternative is when those proteins get glycated that can‘t turn over very rapidly, like collagen, or like a protein that makes up nerve tissue. These proteins cannot be gotten rid of, so the protein accumulates, and the A.G.E.s accumulate and continue to damage.

That includes the collagen that makes up the matrix of your arteries. A.G.E.s are so bad that we know that there are receptors for A.G.E.s, hundreds of receptors, for every macrophage. They are designed to try to get rid of those A.G.E.s, but what happens when a macrophage combines with an A.G.E. product?

It sets up an inflammatory reaction. You eat a diet that promotes elevated glucose, and you produce increased glycated proteins and A.G.E.s, you are increasing your rate of inflammation of any kind. You get down to the roots, including arthritis and headaches.

When you start putting people on a diet to remedy all of this, patients who used to have horrible headaches or shoulder pains don‘t have them anymore.

Glycated proteins make a person very pro-inflammatory, so we age and, at least partially, accumulate damage by oxidation. One of the most important types of tissues that oxygenate is the fatty component, the lipid, especially the poly-unsaturated fatty acids, and they turn rancid and glycate.

The term for glycation in the food industry is carmelization. It is used all the time to make caramel. So the way we age is that we turn rancid and we carmelize. It‘s very true, and that is what gets most of us. If that doesn‘t get us, then the genetic causes of aging will, because every cell in your body has genetic programs to commit suicide. There are various theories for why this is, one being that if they didn‘t, virtually every cell in your body would eventually turn cancerous.

Whether those so-called applopatic genes developed as a means to prevent cancer or not is open to speculation, but it is a good theory. We know that all cancer cells have turned off the mechanisms for apoptosis, which is the medical term for chemical suicide. So we know that it plays a role.




and what about people who eat fruit (for hydration :o) and AGEs?

Nicola



William

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2009, 10:27:38 pm »
Looks really depressing, but the fact is that enough of us have used pemmican for health and healing; it does not make us sick and there are no symptoms of AGEs ALEsm or any other scary stuff.

We can go only so far with hypothesis or theory until we have nothing at all that is fit to eat.

So what do you suggest we eat?

Offline rafonly

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challenging!!!
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2009, 12:58:54 am »

i wouldn't call it depressing but challenging

{{depression, incidentally, may or may not be a sign of lack of certain nutrients; check out gardgaudas' book or listen to her free podcasts on itunes, 2 of which radio shows are on depression & anxiety
http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/}}

myself i try to use the help provided by my taste buds, my physiology in general, my insights, the environmental resources i have access to, my studies, anecdotal data from other persons.....
& keep making adjustments as needed if i find myself fallen into a rut

what to eat?
my experience suggests primal cuts of fresh local grassfed beef which has been dry aged at home for 0-6 days
nothing ground or prefrozen; nothing cooked other than the very occasional soup; no fruits or veggies either
so far this is working best for me

but, of course, every1 = an individual > some1's food = some1 else's poison

"time & gradient precede existence", me

Offline rafonly

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pace
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2009, 01:14:54 am »

something else i can mention:
al sears' pace program -- short events of progressively intensifying interval training + calisthenics

http://alsearsmd.com/pace/

it works for me, but, again, every1 = an individual

"time & gradient precede existence", me

Offline rafonly

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bag breathing
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2009, 01:49:57 am »

yet another, truly helpful, i believe, thing:
read the 2nd article by lichtfield on the mindful physiology site, the 1 on "good & bad breathing"
http://www.bp.edu/

the author provides a whole list of deleterious side effects of what he calls "bad breathing" -- which, this may surprise you, include various digestive troubles
further, he suggests simple breathing mechanics items, 1 of which is bag breathing

in my case, even w/o doing any bag breathing, just learning of these things turned out to be a +

"time & gradient precede existence", me

carnivore

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Re: challenging!!!
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2009, 02:52:00 am »


nothing ground or prefrozen; nothing cooked other than the very occasional soup; no fruits or veggies either
so far this is working best for me

but, of course, every1 = an individual > some1's food = some1 else's poison



What kind of trouble do you have when you eat ground meat ?

carnivore

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2009, 03:00:01 am »
Looks really depressing, but the fact is that enough of us have used pemmican for health and healing; it does not make us sick and there are no symptoms of AGEs ALEsm or any other scary stuff.

We can go only so far with hypothesis or theory until we have nothing at all that is fit to eat.

So what do you suggest we eat?

I repeat : there is very little quantity of AGEs and ALEs in raw food, even aged for several months, (compared to cooked food), and our body is equipped to deal with this tiny amount of AGEs. So nothing to worry about AGEs as long as you eat raw food, and avoid (or severely limit) carbs.
Pemmican is a great food if the fat is rendered at low temp and the meat is dried at low temp.

Offline Hannibal

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2009, 03:18:18 am »
I repeat : there is very little quantity of AGEs and ALEs in raw food, even aged for several months
Have you got any proof that there is little AGEs in high meats? I don't say that you are wrong, but I'm just curious
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

carnivore

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2009, 04:45:52 am »
Have you got any proof that there is little AGEs in high meats? I don't say that you are wrong, but I'm just curious

Of course : AGEs are precisely what gives cooked meat its taste, texture, aroma, color, etc.  No such dramatic changes occur during aging.

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1b.shtml :

"Browning, aromas, and flavors. So-called "Amadori products" are the result of early Maillard reactions. Then, brown pigments are created, giving the characteristic color of some cooked foods like bread crust, as well as volatile compounds which give various odors such as roasting aromas. More than 2,000 volatile compounds have been identified (and certainly many more exist) [Finot et al. 1990]. (Note: It may be that Maillard reactions are not responsible for all browning that occurs during cooking and aging; oxidation may also be responsible. For instance, meat browns quite easily despite the minuscule amounts of carbohydrates present with which to react with proteins.) "
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 05:15:56 am by carnivore »

Offline Nicola

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2009, 07:59:14 pm »
I repeat : there is very little quantity of AGEs and ALEs in raw food, even aged for several months, (compared to cooked food), and our body is equipped to deal with this tiny amount of AGEs. So nothing to worry about AGEs as long as you eat raw food, and avoid (or severely limit) carbs.
Pemmican is a great food if the fat is rendered at low temp and the meat is dried at low temp.


I asked Lex a few questions about what this Dr. Mercola mentioned in the link on "Insulin" - one of my questions was "would the glycogen (protein) metabolism produce AGE's"?
 

Of course it would.  Our bodies make and use glucose from a variety of foods (and our own body tissues if we are fasting), as glucose is needed for our survival.  Any time a substance is metabolized in the presence of glucose AGE's are produced.  Since our blood and tissues have a constant supply of glucose, AGE's are constantly being produced.  AGE's are just another waste product.  The best you can do is live a lifestyle that keeps blood glucose stable at a NORMAL level.  My BG stays around 90 to 100 all the time.  People who eat a high carb diet often have BG spikes of 200 to 300 that can last for several hours.  Much larger amounts of AGE's would be produced at these high BG levels.  I don't try to artificially control my BG level.  I just try to eat a diet that is low in carbs, keep my BG level as constant as possible, and I let my body decide how much it needs.

Nicola

 


Offline RawZi

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2009, 08:10:04 pm »
GC Burger told us about their experiments with their pigs left outside in freezing weather. There was frozen apples on the ground and they let the pigs eat it. They showed no sign of troubles as long as the apples were still frozen, thaw happening in the pigs mouths. But once the temperature rose over 0°C, the apples thawed on the ground before the pigs ate it. Then they showed some troubles - GC Burger didn't elaborate and we didn't ask him what kind of troubles, but here's what he told us, concluding that it's probably OK to eat frozen food as long as thawing happens inside the mouth !

Francois

    ... and my son always made fun of me for eating food out of the freezer rather than thawing, blending or cooking.  It seems I did something right without knowing!  I wonder what the scientific mechanism might be to make thawing in the mouth better?
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline RawZi

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2009, 08:14:20 pm »
What about AGEs and protein


http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/07/14/insulin-part-one.aspx

...

Whether those so-called applopatic genes developed as a means to prevent cancer or not is open to speculation, but it is a good theory. We know that all cancer cells have turned off the mechanisms for apoptosis, which is the medical term for chemical suicide. So we know that it plays a role.

[/i]


and what about people who eat fruit (for hydration :o) and AGEs?

Nicola

    I used to eat fruit for hydration.  I felt and looked horrible.  It's a good recipe for a swift race to death.  I wasn't eating bread or beans or fried food or soda or anything like that either.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

carnivore

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2009, 09:06:20 pm »
    I used to eat fruit for hydration.  I felt and looked horrible.  It's a good recipe for a swift race to death.  I wasn't eating bread or beans or fried food or soda or anything like that either.

Water is more appropriate for hydration, and meat for nourishing...

Modern fruits are poison, and wild fruits are inedible...

William

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2009, 10:28:33 pm »
I asked Lex a few questions about what this Dr. Mercola mentioned in the link on "Insulin" - one of my questions was "would the glycogen (protein) metabolism produce AGE's"?
 

Of course it would. 

Nicola


AGE production is described as happening in the absence of an enzyme.
It makes no sense that this enzyme is always absent, so it seems that AGE creation is evidence of deficiency disease.
Rawpaleofood is supposed to prevent enzyme deficiency, so should also prevent AGE creation.

Offline Iguana

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2009, 11:38:06 pm »
Water is more appropriate for hydration, and meat for nourishing...
Modern fruits are poison, and wild fruits are inedible...

Good joke, Fred ! I suppose you know that everything becomes a poison when eaten in excessive amount and that even a noxious chemical such as DHMO (dihydrogen monoxide, see http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html) can be beneficial to our health when taken in limited quantity.

What about modern foodstuffs such as pemmican made of the meat of modern animals like beef, pig or sheep ? How do you know when you’ve eaten enough of it, at which point any additional amount will become noxious to you ?

Cheers
Francois, omnivore
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

carnivore

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2009, 11:38:58 pm »

AGE production is described as happening in the absence of an enzyme.
It makes no sense that this enzyme is always absent, so it seems that AGE creation is evidence of deficiency disease.
Rawpaleofood is supposed to prevent enzyme deficiency, so should also prevent AGE creation.

AGEs is the result of the non-enzymatic reaction between sugars and free amino groups of proteins. It does not need enzyme to be produced.

http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009/07/glycosylation-and-glycation.html

carnivore

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2009, 11:48:40 pm »
Good joke, Fred ! I suppose you know that everything becomes a poison when eaten in excessive amount and that even a noxious chemical such as DHMO (dihydrogen monoxide, see http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html) can be beneficial to our health when taken in limited quantity.

What about modern foodstuffs such as pemmican made of the meat of modern animals like beef, pig or sheep ? How do you know when you’ve eaten enough of it, at which point any additional amount will become noxious to you ?

Cheers
Francois, omnivore


You're right, DHMO can be beneficial for some  :P :

"Can using DHMO improve my marriage?
   This is a popular myth, but one which is also actually supported by a number of scientific facts. Dihydrogen Monoxide plays an instrumental role in the centers of the brain associated with feelings of emotional attachment and love. Married couples have found that regular ingestion of DHMO can improve their marriage-related activities, while couples that never ingest DHMO often find that their marriage suffers as well.  "

Pemmican is such a concentrate food that there is no way to overeat it.
Fat, contrary to sugar, is VERY satiating and nourishing.

Offline Iguana

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2009, 12:31:24 am »
Pemmican is such a concentrate food that there is no way to overeat it.

Just like raviolis, then ?  ;D

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

carnivore

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Re: raw meat vs. frozen
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2009, 02:20:30 am »
Just like raviolis, then ?  ;D


Well, I have already overate raviolis several times. Never pemmican!
So actually no!  ;)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 03:19:07 am by carnivore »

 

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