PaleoPhil's Journal

[RawZi]

Jersey cows and older females produce more yellow fat

    Could that be due to rancidity or dysfunction of the liver?  Or is it like brown fat?

[van]

 I think it's completely due to the way it is.  Something to do with the way they process caratonene,  or however you spell the word.  I know for fact that it tastes far superiour  to white fat,  at least I want to think so.  No, it really is yummy.

[PaleoPhil]

The grassfed nearly-white kidney fat (the yellow is only easily visible if you melt it) I buy tastes much better than the gooey, connective-tissue-filled yellow organic grain-finished kidney fat. So the yellow color doesn't seem to make as big a difference on taste as the [100%] grassfed aspect.

[KD]

I've been confused about the fat-labeling as well. I used to be able to acquire suet that was indeed suet from local farms but it was always frozen. I've never seen anything labeled suet in conventional markets like WF, although usually displaying organs (other than perhaps chicken liver or maybe heart) is also quite rare. For people in the US, are you acquiring these directly from farms or do you have relationships with butchers that carry grass-fed? are fats and organs the kind of thing markets like WF separate on site or do all their muscle meats get shipped as it? I think in the past I've asked for various fats only to get blank stares.

It seems the majority of people here object to frozen in most cases but I also see alot of posts from people in the US ordering from sites farms like Slankers or US wellness. I personally had no problems with frozen suet but it wasn't the staple of my diet and thus not consumed in larger enough quantities to determine.

[PaleoPhil]

I can buy conventional grain-finished kidney fat labeled as "suet," as well as marrow, at one of the Hannaford conventional supermarkets (a New England, USA chain).

I can buy organic grain-finished kidney fat and 100% grass-fed kidney fat, both labeled as "suet" or "miscellaneous" at the local Healthy Living healthfood market. There is also very expensive duck fat at Healthy Living. At both Hannaford and Healthy Living the fat is wrapped in standard plastic and Styrofoam meat packaging.

I thought that the slightly musty/gamey smell and taste of grassfed meat and fat and grain-finished fat (but not grain-finished meat) was inherent to it, perhaps due to the hay the animals eat or something, but I've noticed that it disappears if I leave the meat and fat out overnight so that it air-dries. I wonder if the fact that it sits in sealed plastic for a while produces some or all of the mustiness/gameyness? Doesn't explain why I don't notice it in plastic-wrapped grain-finished meat, though.

[djr_81]

For people in the US, are you acquiring these directly from farms or do you have relationships with butchers that carry grass-fed? are fats and organs the kind of thing markets like WF separate on site or do all their muscle meats get shipped as it? I think in the past I've asked for various fats only to get blank stares.

Most places just order muscle meat and butcher these as opposed to whole carcasses so you'll rarely if ever find organs outside of liver. Of course you can scout out the supermarkets in poorer areas as these tend to have more organs in my experience (a local ShopRite store stocks liver, heart, tripe, tongues, and occasionally kidney but it's invariably grainfed). Then you have the more specialty markets who do get who animals but it's hard to find one getting grassfed animals.
Most "butchers" aren't real butchers, they're just meat jockeys. They have no clue about half of the terms you could throw at them. It's a dying art and not surprising you get blank stares.

It seems the majority of people here object to frozen in most cases but I also see alot of posts from people in the US ordering from sites farms like Slankers or US wellness. I personally had no problems with frozen suet but it wasn't the staple of my diet and thus not consumed in larger enough quantities to determine.

IMO frozen meat is denatured. It doesn't nourish the body as thoroughly as fresh grassfed meat but frozen grassfed is tons better than fresh grainfed. It's a case of the less of two evils. I personally order supplemental fat and organs from Slankers but get as much fresh muscle meat & fat as I can from my local supplier. I can only get fresh liver from them though so if I want say a tongue I need to call up Slankers.
As far as frozen suet I find it less damaged by the freezing than other fats. It's more saturated nature holds up better. I probably eat frozen suet 22+ days out of every month and have no ill effects as a result.

[miles]

Hey Phil. I don't leave it out overnight, I just leave it out on the table for a bit before I eat it, wave it around a bit, blow on it and turn it over =D And yea, any unpleasant taste/odour is gone so it's not something that should be there. i.e. if you either freshly killing an animal, or you just covered it with a breathable skin/hide or whatever it wouldn't have that... It builds up because there's no air-flow. Waste products from bacteria digesting the meat I suppose.

If I leave it out overnight, I have to cover it, and then I'm just leaving it again, sitting on one side... Unless you can hang it by a hook I don't see how leaving it out would do much good? It'll just get more decomposed.

[PaleoPhil]

...If I leave it out overnight, I have to cover it, and then I'm just leaving it again, sitting on one side... Unless you can hang it by a hook I don't see how leaving it out would do much good? It'll just get more decomposed.

For those who think that high meat and stink fish may be healthy, more digestible stuff, decomposed is a good thing, not bad (as long as it is done in an oxygen-rich environment). Yes, hanging would be optimal, but a the carcass of a lion's kill is just left lying on the ground (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiJBjsHEi1w--notice also that the more rotted their meat the more jealously the lions appear to guard it), so hanging isn't essential. I've been trying to think how I would hang my meats/fats. Maybe a big wooden box with hooks in it. I probably don't need the refrigeration of commercial meat lockers, since it rarely gets very hot in my home and people in Africa hang meat outdoors in hot temperatures.

Thanks for letting me know that it only takes a brief period of blowing air to get rid of the mustiness. Try air-drying a piece of suet overnight (yes, hanging is best, but it works just by leaving it on a table too) and I think you'll see what I'm talking about. I find it to be even tastier, but it may be a personal preference. A hide would be better to store in than plastic, yes. I think anaerobic, moisture-holding plastic combined with a moisture-promoting environment like a fridge is the source of the mustiness.

[Paleo Donk]

Nice vid! I wonder if the maggots would add or detract to the nutritional goodness of the meat. I've left some of my meat out at room temperature for a few days on plates making sure to rotate it every once in a while to keep it oxygenated with good results. Unfortunately the smell was too strong for the other people in the place I'm staying in so it had to go and I'm back to fresh defrosted meat again. I actually didn't think there was anything wrong with the smell.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, the social factor vs. the need to oxygenate is what I'm trying to figure out how to deal with as well. I'm thinking that a solution might be a large sealed wooden box with hooks to hang meat/fat from, maybe with the meat coated in spices if necessary and/or topped by a fragrant plant for added insurance against odor (and insects in the case of the spices).

[William]

Before refrigeration was invented, everybody kept their meat in the coolest place possible, down to 5°C, and butchers still do this to get the best tasting meat.
On ZIOH they are raving about the excellent taste of this, calling it dry aging.

Maggots probably do nothing for the meat except eat it, so they are just competition.

[PaleoPhil]

Before refrigeration was invented, everybody kept their meat in the coolest place possible, down to 5°C, and butchers still do this to get the best tasting meat.

Everybody? Including people living in the Sahara and Kalahari deserts with no electricity? Cooling may be beneficial, but I'm not convinced it's essential. I saw a video on Bushmen hunting and they just dried the meat on tree branches, without any added cooling techniques beyond a little shade from the tree. I emailed my father to ask how my Irish relatives did it before they got their refrigerator in the 1970s.

On ZIOH they are raving about the excellent taste of this, calling it dry aging.

Yes, I like the taste too.

[William]

I saw a video on Bushmen hunting and they just dried the meat on tree branches, without any added cooling techniques beyond a little shade from the tree.

In a tree is the coolest place possible.
Fresh meat is wet. Meat dries by evaporation. Evaporation cools. I learned this in school.

[PaleoPhil]

In a tree is the coolest place possible. ...

A little shade from a scraggly tree in the Kalahari desert isn't going to bring the temp down to 5°C.


Journal note:

I was recently low on fat and cheated by making up for the fat shortage by eating a small bowl of raw fruit (berries, red grapes, pineapple and melon, with a handful of spring greens) two days in a row and developed a nasty cancer sore--which was the first [canker] sore I've had since going raw carnivore, so I suspect it may have been related--pineapple is my biggest suspect because it seems acidic and acidic foods have done a number on me in the past. Since laying off the fruit again my [canker] sore has been healing.

[miles]

Canker sore?

[PaleoPhil]

LOL! Yeah, thanks for the catch. Blunder number 2,000 for me.

[klowcarb]

Phil:

Can I have your opinion on two things re: raw eggs? I really value your opinion, as you know.

1.  Is there a benefit to eating the shell? I could break up the shell into my beef bowl is there is. I'm eating Eggland Best Eggs, so not the typical supermarket brand. I'd love to get the fertilized or pastured eggs you mention.
2.  I read that soaking eggs in warm water is enough to unbind the avidin. Some suggested running the egg under hot water before using it raw.

What do you think?
Thanks, Phil!

  Kate

[PaleoPhil]

Phil:

Can I have your opinion on two things re: raw eggs? I really value your opinion, as you know.

1.  Is there a benefit to eating the shell? I could break up the shell into my beef bowl is there is. I'm eating Eggland Best Eggs, so not the typical supermarket brand. I'd love to get the fertilized or pastured eggs you mention.

I don't know. I've tried it and didn't care for it and never heard of hunter-gatherers do it, so my suspicion is that they don't. I do know that they tend to chew on bones and consume small, soft bones and bones made soft from fermentation (such as from stink fish, yay!--love every chance I get to say "stink fish").

2.  I read that soaking eggs in warm water is enough to unbind the avidin. Some suggested running the egg under hot water before using it raw....

Interesting. Hadn't heard that one. I doubt it, since the interior of the egg likely wouldn't be heated much. I could be wrong, though.

[William]

I don't know. I've tried it and didn't care for it and never heard of hunter-gatherers do it, so my suspicion is that they don't. I do know that they tend to chew on bones and consume small, soft bones and bones made soft from fermentation (such as from stink fish, yay!--love every chance I get to say "stink fish").

The first & only hit I got from ixquick was:
stink fish
fish member of the family Callionymidae. Cause immediate, forceful vomiting.
Hmm, thought I, PaleoPhil is weirder than I thought. 
Then I tried scroogle, and it said it's a traditional Inuit delicacy in Alaska. Wonder if they could be persuaded to sell some?

[PaleoPhil]

The first & only hit I got from ixquick was:
stink fish
fish member of the family Callionymidae. Cause immediate, forceful vomiting.
Hmm, thought I, PaleoPhil is weirder than I thought. 

Hahahaha! Yeeeheee!

Then I tried scroogle, and it said it's a traditional Inuit delicacy in Alaska. Wonder if they could be persuaded to sell some?

Are there some Inuit near you?

[William]

Are there some Inuit near you?

Well, there is the federal minister of health, probably some others. All too civilized.

[PaleoPhil]

Andrew Zimmern ate some stink heads in his Alaska video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUUy0ZiUnMc&feature=related) made by Lucy Crow. I like her spirit.

You can tell from Andrew's response that he didn't care for the stink head, but he tries to be diplomatic. I think I would wait until high meat tastes OK before trying stink fish/heads.

[PaleoPhil]

My increasing constipation and still too-low urine pH convinced me to broaden my experiments ahead of schedule. I've been experimenting with dairy, fruit and raw honeycomb with poor results. It stinks.

I tried making ghee from pastured cultured butter on Sunday night and ate some, finding it to taste good even though I overcooked it a bit. However, Monday morning I woke real early feeling miserable and had to call in sick. I'm surprised that only 3 or so oz. of slightly overdone ghee had such a negative effect. I'll bet I didn't get all the casein and whey out of it. Ghee tastes better than cultured butter, but is too expensive, too finicky, and appears to be too risky for me to mess with it much.


2 days ago I tried a bigger bowl of fruit and greens at work, this time leaving out tropical fruit and only including frozen strawberries and blueberries plus grapes. Later that afternoon I yawned three times in a row. It was noticeable because that's the first time in months I've yawned that many times in a row and they were gaping yawns like I used to get before I went VLC. When I eat carnivore, no matter how tired I am I rarely yawn at all and when I do it's never more than a single yawn at a time and they are always small little yawns that last hardly half a second, instead of gaping yawns.

It occurred to me--carbs provide anaerobic fuel to cells, including cancer cells that are anaerobic cells, whereas fats provide aerobic fuel. I heard that yawning is supposed to be caused by oxygen depletion in combination with tiredness. Could carbs actually deplete oxygen? I'll try to monitor this some more in the future.

I bought a pint of blueberries yesterday and ate some yesterday and today. I also added about 1/2 a tsp of raw honey to some herbal tea and ate a small chunk of the truly raw honeycomb that Tyler recommended (it is indeed different from the store stuff and tastes excellent) for an additional boost to the urine pH. It wasn't a lot of total carbs, but it was enough to get my urine pH up to 6.4. However, I also got a slight rash that was mildly itchy and dry skin on my right arm and more dry skin elsewhere, including mildly chapped lips, and a small skin irritation in my beard. Plus, a film formed on my teeth that was difficult to brush away and I developed morning breath. It's amazing how little carbs it seems to take to bring out some symptoms. The symptoms are no worse (nor better) than before, it's just easier to recognize them after getting my overall symptom threshold so low with raw facultative carnivore. I was low on fat, so I only added a little fat to the blueberries; maybe more fat would have helped.

I also ate some greens the last 3 days (and a tiny bit of kelp one day) and was hoping this might help with my constipation, but no such luck. At least I didn't notice any negative symptoms from them, and I doubt they contributed to the skin issues like the carbs may have, but I can't know for sure, since I tended to eat the greens either with the fruit or not long before or afterwards.

So far raw carnivore is the only thing that keeps all my symptoms--except for acidic, bubbly urine and constipation--away. Raw fruits bring the urine pH up, but appear to cause multiple other problems and don't help with the bubbles or constipation.

[TylerDurden]

I'm afraid it's a myth that one can make ghee that is 100% devoid of lactose or casein. There are always trace amounts left which will cause problems for those with particular sensitivity to dairy. It's worse, IMO,for those with only slight food-intolerance to dairy, as they might be able tolerate ghee in the short-term re no immediately observable symptoms, but be unaware of the longer-term harm done by ghee  until it's too late.

Are you sure it's constipation as in stools refusing to come out? My own experience when doing without carbs and just eating 1 large meal a day is that it can easily happen that I have a bowel movement once in a 3 or 4 day period, though more usually, it's more frequent than that, of course.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm afraid it's a myth that one can make ghee that is 100% devoid of lactose or casein.

You may be right. Some very believable people report being able to handle ghee despite problems with butter, but perhaps I'm more sensitive, because I did score nearly off the charts in antibody count to every dairy component that was in the test (casein, whey, lactose and "dairy"--whatever that one referred to--as I recall). It's too much of a pain anyway for me to deal with making ghee and trying to get every bit of milk solid out of it.

Are you sure it's constipation as in stools refusing to come out? My own experience when doing without carbs and just eating 1 large meal a day is that it can easily happen that I have a bowel movement once in a 3 or
4 day period, though more usually, it's more frequent than that, of course.

I don't determine it by # of times/day, I determine it by the Bristol Stool Scale and how hard it is and how difficult to pass. Lately it's been ranging from #1 to #3 on the scale. There is a correlation--the longer between BMs, the lower on the scale it goes--but I base it on the scale rather than the frequency. The good news is there isn't visible mucus like there used to be when I was eating cooked and more carbs, so my colon seems less irritated by the stools staying in it.

I see reports of people going 3 or more days without a BM and not having it go down to #1 - #3 on the scale, which I find amazing. There must be something wrong with my system that causes it to dry out the stools rapidly and causes the colon to get irritated. The latter is much improved, so that confirms it as far as the irritation goes. My stools initially normalized not long after I went ZC (I could handle a couple days without a BM and not get much constipated), but worsened again when my fecal volume declined.

It's not just a matter of not getting enough fluids, because I'm drinking more now than when I was less constipated, though I do think I'm drinking less than optimal for carnivorous diets. Part of the problem is, my bladder gets painfully bloated if I try to drink as much as Lex does--especially overnight. Maybe Inuits had bigger bladders or something. I also so far don't get thirsty enough to drink a lot more and it's time consuming to frequently drink and urinate and easy to forget to do it.

The other problem is, adding back in some carbs triggers my old skin and other symptoms, takes away the feeling of health and wellbeing, and doesn't help with the constipation. Greens haven't noticeably hurt anything, but they haven't helped either.

I think I'll try this approach: try to remember to take water, Mg and greens every day, with monthly clay for detoxing the antinutrients from the greens if I take them for long, and keep trying to increase my water intake. If my pH gets below 6.0, I may do occasional doses of carbs to get it back up again, unless the symptoms from carbs get too bad. Lex thinks the urine pH may not be a problem. I need to order the Multistix to check the urine specific gravity.