Author Topic: Lex's Journal  (Read 564700 times)

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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2008, 01:52:52 pm »
Here's the average breakdown of my daily meal.  All numbers are rounded to the nearest whole number.
                             
Total      Percent     Percent    % Calories    % Calories    Total      Total       Calories        Calories         Total Calories
Eaten        Fat        Protein         Fat            Protein       Fat       Protein     From Fat     From Protein      Consumed

633g         30%         14%          81%            19%         190g       91g         1709            391                 2100

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2008, 06:33:29 pm »


Lex,

No, I'm not suggesting you change your protocol now. I was just stating what I think's going on in your body.

How are you feeling?!   :)

Can't wait for the test results and graphics. Hang in there.

Craig

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2008, 04:00:42 am »
I got my annual blood test results today.  My doctor was amazed at the cholesterol levels.  Knowing my diet was very heavy in saturated animal fat he was convinced that cholesterol would be off the charts.  I’m glad to report that this was not true.  In fact, the number improved over my previous test. 

My scanner died so I’ll provide a summary comparison here, and will post a PDF of the actual lab report in the near future.

Last year’s lab was done while I was eating a 68%Fat/32%Protein diet.  This year’s labs were taken after I had been on the higher fat protocol of 80/20 for about 5 weeks.  The results are interesting.

                                  07/2007                07/2008
Triglycerides                      43                      52
Cholesterol Total               211                    189
HDL Cholesterol                  52                      63
LDL Cholesterol                 150                    116
CHOL/HDCL Ratio                  4.1                    3.0
Blood Glucose                    111                     97
AST                                  18                     20
ALT                                  21                     23



As you can see almost everything has improved or is well within acceptable limits.  I have 3 pages of tests and most everything is right in the middle of the acceptable range.  If there is a specific number you are interested in let me know and I'll see if that test was done.

Lex
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:10:30 am by lex_rooker »

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2008, 11:13:26 am »
Congratulations Lex! Even I didn't expect an improvement like that. Your HDL and LDL are remarkable.
Was there any change in your serum calcium?

Craig

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2008, 11:39:36 am »
Craig,
Here’s a list of the various metabolics:

                                    07/2007           07/2008
Urea Nitrogen (BUN)            25                   22
Creatinine                           1.2                  1.06
Sodium                            142                 140
Potassium                           4.1                  3.7
Chloride                           105                 105
Carbon Dioxide                   22                   27
Calcium                              9.2                  8.7
Protein, Total                      6.6                  6.5
Albumin                              4.5                  4.3
Globulin                              2.1                  2.2
Bilirubin, Total                     0.4                  0.5
Alkaline Phosphatase           89                   79

PSA                                  0.6                   1.5

Everything is well within range and most things didn’t change much at all.  I’m a bit disappointed as PSA rose more than I would like so will have to keep an eye on it. 

Lex

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2008, 06:22:14 am »
I’ve been trying to understand why Craig seemed to adapt so quickly to a Fat Based Metabolism and yet I have struggled with large swings in ketones and BG since I upped the fat content of my diet.  It became very clear that even though I had been eating only meat and fat for several years, the larger amount of protein I was eating provided enough glucose to meet my body’s needs.  This got me to wondering what was different about Craig’s environment and mine, and I think I’ve hit on a possible solution to the problem.

Craig is younger than I am and though I don’t think age itself is the major factor, he is still working, and if memory serves, his job is one that has a high level of strenuous activity.  With no disrespect and an attempt at some humor, I’ll call this “The Ditch Digging Factor”.

I, on the other hand, am retired and have no real activity other than a leisurely stroll to the market a couple of times a week.  I fall squarely in the middle of “The Couch Potato Crowd” complete, when I was working and eating a normal high carb diet, with “Bubble Butt” syndrome (also affectionately known as Secretary’s Spread).  Yes, I’m active, but none of my activity is strenuous.

Advice that I’ve received on other groups on successfully transitioning to a Fat/Ketone based metabolism has focused on manipulating both the composition of the food I eat as well as eating many times per day to spread out the effect of one large infusion of protein from a single meal.  This approach seems rather contrived and our Paleo ancestors certainly wouldn’t have worried about consuming exactly 5 grams of carbs and 20 grams of protein at each of 5 meals which must be space exactly 3 ½ hours apart, a fat only snack just before retiring, and checking BG when I get up to pee in the middle of the night and consuming more fat if BG is too high.

All this is leading to a hypothesis.  I believe that our muscles and liver store carbs in the form of glycogen.  My low level of activity draws on these stores when I go for my walks, but there is sufficient time between these minor increases of activity to allow what glucose is manufactured from the protein I eat to replenish these glycogen stores.  This means that I’m always using glucose as my body’s preferred fuel as there is always sufficient glucose available.  Since Craig is forced to do strenuous physical activity almost every day as part of his job, his glycogen stores are always depleted, so his system had no choice but to convert to using a different primary fuel – fat and ketones.  Craig’s level of activity made it impossible for him to eat enough protein to make sufficient glucose to replenish reserves.

I’m in reasonable shape so I’m going to test this idea by increasing my activity enough every day to try to deplete my body’s glycogen reserves.  This should have a profound effect on BG and ketones.  I’m eating less than 100g of protein per day so I have less than 58g of glucose available to support the glucose driven systems and replenish glycogen stores.  I’m going to start off with a slow 2 mile daily jog.  This should do a number on any stored glycogen and with less than 58g of glucose available from my daily food intake, there shouldn’t be enough to fully replenish glycogen stores and my body will be forced to use ketones and fat.

If my activity level is high enough then minor differences in protein and fat ratios should make little difference.  Also, there should be no requirements to eat more meals or any other artificial manipulation as the total raw materials consumed each day just won’t be enough to allow my body to continue using glucose as its primary fuel.  Our paleo ancestors certainly had a much higher level of activity than I do and this may have been the key to their success.

Thoughts?

Lex

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2008, 11:05:30 am »
Lex,

My thoughts are that you have something there. The ketogenic studies claiming a two-week adaptation period have been done primarily on athletes, haven't they?

Craig

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2008, 11:37:56 am »
Attached are the PDF's of last year's and this year's blood tests.  I've also added them to the very first post of this journal directly under the chart.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2008, 02:16:06 pm »
Brilliant analysis. I was wondering about long distance athletes that consume carbs and appear to be keto-adapted and perhaps extreme depletion of glycogen might cause adaptation in a person who is not even eating a ketogenic diet.

For example triathalon or marathon athletes who may use over 10,000 calories of energy in a day of exercise for those long events; the body could not possibly store enough glucose in any form for that kind of expenditure. This is why many of those athletes must consume carb foods during their events; but I've heard of some who eat more fat in their diet and they claim to not have to rely on food during events.

To put it simply it may be that the level of carbs you can still consume and become keto-adapted on is proportional to your level of activity; in particular your level of calories consumed in strenuous exercise that would use up all glycogen stores.

With enough studies a loose equation might even be possible like if you increase calorie expenditure X amount you can increase carb or protein (protein would be .58xcarb increase) intake by Y and still stay keto-adapted.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2008, 06:15:36 pm »
I feel better when I go for walks, run, go swimming; it gets the food working in the system and helps with brain work as well.

This ionized water gives me the kick...

Nicola

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2008, 11:29:19 pm »
Attached are the PDF's of last year's and this year's blood tests.  I've also added them to the very first post of this journal directly under the chart.

I'm curious. What is your doctor's chicken scratch around the circled lipid profile in your recent test?

Craig

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2008, 12:13:02 am »
The hen scratchings are a note to his Admin Aid to mail me a copy of the report.  Unfortunately, the Aid got sick and I had to go pick them up.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2008, 10:38:39 am »
The first day of added exercise has definitely shown significant changes in BG and Ketones.  BG has dropped into the 70's most of the day and ketones went off the chart to the highest color patch - level 4 or above.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'm forcing my body to metabolize stored body fat as fast as possible to free the glycerol for converting to glucose.  This frees a bunch of fatty acids that I'm not currently using so they're disposed of as ketones in the urine and through the lungs.

Time will tell if this strategy will work.

Lex

Satya

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2008, 11:50:35 pm »
The first day of added exercise has definitely shown significant changes in BG and Ketones.  BG has dropped into the 70's most of the day and ketones went off the chart to the highest color patch - level 4 or above.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'm forcing my body to metabolize stored body fat as fast as possible to free the glycerol for converting to glucose.  This frees a bunch of fatty acids that I'm not currently using so they're disposed of as ketones in the urine and through the lungs.

Time will tell if this strategy will work.

Wow, BG in the 70s!  How do you feel?  Good for you for beginning an exercise program, especially in summer.  I tend to focus more on weight training in winter as I tend to get minor injuries in the cold ... and age will expedite those problems methinks.  I am sure you are proceeding at a good progressive pace.  Go Lex!

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2008, 12:39:23 am »
The first day of added exercise has definitely shown significant changes in BG and Ketones.  BG has dropped into the 70's most of the day and ketones went off the chart to the highest color patch - level 4 or above.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'm forcing my body to metabolize stored body fat as fast as possible to free the glycerol for converting to glucose.  This frees a bunch of fatty acids that I'm not currently using so they're disposed of as ketones in the urine and through the lungs.

Time will tell if this strategy will work.

Lex

I wonder with the increased activity if your appetite will return.

Craig

Offline akaikumo

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2008, 08:59:03 am »
This is REALLY interesting. I appreciate all the data you're taking.
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. - Anais Nin

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2008, 09:34:11 am »
Killer day today.  I think I used up all my glycogen reserves yesterday and today was a real struggle to complete my two mile jog.  I had to walk/jog as I couldn't jog more than 100 paces at a time, stop and walk until I recovered a bit, and then jog another 100 paces.

BG was in the high 60s most of the day, 66-71 area.  I expect it will rise into the 80s after my meal but it really is low.  Ketones were again off the charts at level 4+.

Lex

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2008, 12:51:33 pm »
I've added a PDF of my latest 24 hour BG curve to my initial post as well as to this post below.  Comments are in the the PDF.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2008, 04:11:04 am »
Really tough couple of days.  I did manage to do my two miles yesterday and was able to up the jog/walk from 50/50 to 60/40.  The day went down hill from there.  Felt very tired and just didn't want to eat anything. I was only able to eat about half my normal food and even that was a struggle.  I'm craving carbs so it appears my body is not amused with the added exercise.  I'm hoping that this is a good sign and that when I don't give into the cravings my body will be forced to switch to burning ketones which are still off the chart at level 4+.

BG has also gone up almost 20 points in the past 48 hours into the high 80s/low 90s - this even with eating about half my normal food intake.  I've also lost 5 lbs of weight; 160 again, down from 165.  Much of it appears to be fat.  Previous caliper readings one week ago were Abdomen:14 Chest:9  Thigh:13 for a body fat of about 14%.  Today's caliper readings were Abdomen:12 Chest:8 Thigh:10 for a body fat of 12%.  This is a drop of about 2%.  I seem to be sacrificing fat to keep fatty acids and glucose high enough to support the increased muscle activity. I don't think this can continue much longer without my body switching to ketones which are currently in great abundance.

Things are definitely moving, the only problem is I feel terrible.

Lex

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2008, 01:25:28 pm »
This is REALLY interesting. I appreciate all the data you're taking.

I just noticed that this is the second most popular thread having 529 unique views - second only to a much older thread.
Not many people are posting in it but they sure are reading it!

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2008, 01:47:01 pm »
Really tough couple of days.  I did manage to do my two miles yesterday and was able to up the jog/walk from 50/50 to 60/40.  The day went down hill from there.  Felt very tired and just didn't want to eat anything. I was only able to eat about half my normal food and even that was a struggle.  I'm craving carbs so it appears my body is not amused with the added exercise.  I'm hoping that this is a good sign and that when I don't give into the cravings my body will be forced to switch to burning ketones which are still off the chart at level 4+.

BG has also gone up almost 20 points in the past 48 hours into the high 80s/low 90s - this even with eating about half my normal food intake.  I've also lost 5 lbs of weight; 160 again, down from 165.  Much of it appears to be fat.  Previous caliper readings one week ago were Abdomen:14 Chest:9  Thigh:13 for a body fat of about 14%.  Today's caliper readings were Abdomen:12 Chest:8 Thigh:10 for a body fat of 12%.  This is a drop of about 2%.  I seem to be sacrificing fat to keep fatty acids and glucose high enough to support the increased muscle activity. I don't think this can continue much longer without my body switching to ketones which are currently in great abundance.

Things are definitely moving, the only problem is I feel terrible.

Lex

Lex,

The suspense just kills me. There are so many unexpected twists and turns. The 60/40 jogging is very quick. Your body must be getting the energy that that increase took from somewhere. I'm hoping it's from some of the ketones since your blood sugar didn't drop this time. I'm hoping you've already hit bottom and are now on the rebound. Once you're keto adapted and able to jog 100%, you can take a month off and go right back to it with no problem. Whenever I'd take time off from cardio on a high carb diet, I'd be almost completely back to square one.

Craig

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2008, 02:39:22 pm »
Glad I'm adding some value to the forum.

I've been trying to reconcile my 4 day weight loss that seems to have lead to a 2% body fat reduction with only a relatively minor increase in activity.    I'm sure some of the weight I lost was water which was released when the glycogen was used and not replaced.  My understanding is that for every gram of glucose or glycogen the body must also store 6 grams of water.  I lost 5 lbs but the caliper measurements said that 2% of that weight or 3.2 lbs was fat. So it looks like I lost 3.2 lbs of fat and 1.8 lbs of water.  The issue is this: to lose one pound of fat you must burn around 3,600 calories. The 3.2 lbs of fat represent 11,500 calories and therein lies the conundrum, where did all those calories go?

The only change I made was to increase my activity by adding a very slow 2 mile jog to my daily routine.  If I remember correctly the body burns about 100 additional calories above baseline per mile when jogging.  This means that I was burning and additional 200 calories per day for a total of 800 additional calories over 4 days. Even if you double this amount it only accounts for about 10% or less of the fat calories I lost, again where did they go?

What do we know: I burned an extra 800-1000 calories over 4 days, ketones rose to level 4+ and stayed there, I lost enough fat to account for 11,500 calories, and I really feel tired.

Here's my best guess on what's going on, and if anyone else has thoughts please chime in.  Most of my body functions are still using glucose - especially the muscles.  We can tell this by the fact that ketone levels don't drop after exercise so they aren't being burned as fuel.

The added exercise is demanding more glucose than I'm supplying in my daily food intake.  I'm eating zero carbs and protein intake is 90-100 grams per day which is the only external source and this is not sufficient to replace the glycogen used by the added jogging activity.  The body has to get the glucose from somewhere - either by sacrificing muscle tissue to get protein to convert to glucose or from fat stores.

I may be sacrificing some muscle tissue but not much as I'm using the majority of my body's muscles in the act of jogging so I don't believe the body will sacrifice tissue from the muscles that are calling for the increased fuel unless there is no other source.  I had a good bit of fat at 14% so I expect this is what was used to create the needed glucose/glycogen for the muscles.

But the body can't really make much glucose out of fat, and my body isn't burning the fat so what gives?  Fat moves in and out of the fat cells as Triglycerides.  A Triglyceride is a Glycerol molecule that binds with 3 fat molecules. The liver can easily convert a glycerol molecule into a glucose molecule.  My theory is that the body is calling for glucose to feed the muscles, the muscles are active so they won't be sacrificed if the body has any other alternative.  There is fat available so it is being called out of storage and the the triglycerides are moving to the liver where the 3 fat molecules are stripped off, converted to ketones and sent to the kidneys and lungs for removal from the body hence level 4+ ketones in my urine.  The remaining glycerol molecule is then converted to glucose and sent to the muscles to be used as fuel.

In other words, very little of the fat that is being pulled out of the fat cells is being used - it's being thrown away.  Only the carrier molecule, glycerol, is useful while my body is running on glucose, so it is the only part of the triglyceride molecule that is being used.  So that is what's happening to the majority of the 11,500 fat calories - their being thrown away at the rate of 3 fat for every 1 glycerol just so the body can free up the glycerol molecules to make glucose! 

If this theory is correct it's clear that this is a stop-gap measure and can't continue very long as it is incredibly inefficient and I have limited stores of fat.  I'm sure the body won't use 100% of my fat so there has to be a limit at which point it will be forced to convert as many systems as possible to ketones and fatty acids as these are in abundance where glucose and the raw materials to make it are scarce.  I expect that as time goes on, if I continue the increased activity, there will come a time where weight loss will stop and ketones in the urine will drop to Trace level as they will now be used as the primary fuel for most body activities. At that point the body will be using 100% of the energy in the triglyceride molecule as the body will be running mostly on fat and ketones but will still need a little glucose for some critical systems.  Hence both the 3 fat molecules as well as the glycerol molecule will be fully metabolized again.

Time will tell if this idea is born out.

Lex
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 02:46:49 pm by lex_rooker »

xylothrill

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2008, 03:47:11 pm »
That didn't make sense to me when you were gaining weight but it makes perfect sense now. I'm glad you're able to analyze this in your condition. How's your thinking? Besides feeling awful, you believe your brain is keto-adapted. Do you have any brain fog or episodes of seeing spots or can you still think clearly.

Craig

Offline Lauren

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2008, 10:02:40 pm »
I just noticed that this is the second most popular thread having 529 unique views - second only to a much older thread.
Not many people are posting in it but they sure are reading it!

Yes, many outside of this forum are reading this thread. The only reason I used to log on to the MB was to read Lex's proposed experiment. I wondered what happened when it never surfaced and was happy when Nicola mentioned this thread on another forum.

Thanks Lex for doing this. I'm reading along with great interest.

Offline caroline

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2008, 12:14:02 am »
Hi Lex!

Thanks for your efforts--I found you through Lauren on the Living La Vida Low Carb Forum.  I guess my prayers were answered b/c I have been hard pressed to find a site where someone is doing zero carb other than Charles on the Livng La Vida Low Carb Site. 

I can't understand all of what you are talking about, but just to have someone out there doing this kind of work is great! 

Thanks to you Lauren, for pointing out this site!

 

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