Author Topic: Lex's Journal  (Read 825604 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #625 on: September 15, 2009, 12:47:53 am »
Very interesting Phil.  The idea that the foods eaten would determine the action taken by the body to deal effectively with them seems correct.  I have no doubt that the body uses a different mix of digestive fluids depending on what was eaten.  I'm not nearly as sure that you and I are "different" in our basic dietary requirements than anyone else.  Because others aren't as sensitive or don't show outward symptoms of problems as readily as we do doesn't mean their requirements are different.  I also believe that dietary issues more often than not, manifest themselves in a way that seems unrelated to diet such as allergies, asthma, balding, scaly skin patches, etc.

There is a huge difference in amino acid profile of plant proteins vs animal proteins.  Plant proteins are also often overwhelmed by the associated carbohydrate load.  It is perfectly reasonable to me that the body would respond differently to these two protein sources.

Lex

William

  • Guest
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #626 on: September 15, 2009, 06:58:54 am »
Hi Phil,
Sorry but I can't access the link as it is requesting a login ID and password.

Lex

This one works without login:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?A1=ind0909&L=paleofood

and the thread title is:
Re: Great blog post about saturated fats

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #627 on: September 15, 2009, 07:32:13 am »
...There is a huge difference in amino acid profile of plant proteins vs animal proteins.  Plant proteins are also often overwhelmed by the associated carbohydrate load.  It is perfectly reasonable to me that the body would respond differently to these two protein sources.

Lex
Yes, both excellent points. Ron Hoggan at the other Paleo forum is a very decent and smart fellow who is co-writing a book that will likely cover this subject. So please do let either me or him know if you think of anything else, and he will wish to cite you if he uses any of your thoughts, if you don't mind.

--------

Thanks for the link, William. You're quite helpful, as usual. I don't suppose I'll ever be able to repay you, Lex, DelFuego and Ray Audette for helping guide and motivate me to get going on trying this carnivorous RPD dietary approach, and teaching me how to put it into effect, with your positive success stories and thoughts.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

  • Guest
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #628 on: September 15, 2009, 07:53:45 am »
No thanks needed, Phil.
Just my attempt to return some of the help that I think saved my life.

Passing it on.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #629 on: September 15, 2009, 08:13:55 am »
Yeah, pay it forward, as the newfangled saying goes.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #630 on: September 18, 2009, 12:54:08 pm »
Due to an elevated HBA1c of 6% I've decided to drop protein intake to 85g and raise fat to 210g. I'm currently eating 600 grams of food (that's 1.3 lbs) in one meal per day with total calories around 2,200.  I find this to be more than enough. I will have another HBA1c test done in December or January to see if glycation products drop.  I can say that in one month BG has dropped from an average of 100 to around 85 so I expect A1c will show improvement as well.

The reason I'm doing this is that A1c and blood levels of vitamin D seem to be more closely linked to death from heart and artery disease than HDL and LDL.  From what I've read, people with low levels of Vit D and an A1c level of 7% have a 19% chance of dying over a 12 month period.  People with adequate levels of Vit D and a 5% A1c level the mortality rate drops to 3% in a 12 month period.  Vitamin D also plays a critical role in maintaining bone density.

Sooooooo, I'm back on the high fat protocol but with a twist.  This time I'm controlling protein and by extension the opportunity for gluconeogenisis of excess protein, and just making up the lost calories from fat.  Current diet is about 85% of calories from fat. If I find that I start to gain weight, I'll simply drop the fat level but leave the protein constant at 85g.

In addition, I'm stripping down to gym shorts and getting as close to full body sun exposure as possible for about 45 minutes during mid day. This is how our body is designed to manufacture its own vitamin D which I prefer over taking supplements.  I will have to increase the exposure time during the winter due to the lower intensity of the sun.  I'll be requesting a vitamin D level test, (serum 25 (OH) D), at my December/January visit to the doc as well.  My goal is a serum Vit D level above 50 ng/dl.

Lex
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 01:33:46 pm by lex_rooker »

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #631 on: September 18, 2009, 01:03:33 pm »
I can say that in one month BG has dropped from an average of 100 to around 85 so I expect A1c will show improvement as well.
But didn't you indicate that around 100 is normal for VLCers?

>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #632 on: September 18, 2009, 01:18:32 pm »
But didn't you indicate that around 100 is normal for VLCers?

I've said that 100 mg/dl seems to be 'normal' for most people that have been eating VLC or ZC for any significant amount of time.  So far my experience has shown that this is almost totally dependent on the amount of protein consumed.  BG dropped when I did my initial high fat experiment and it has dropped again now that I've returned to a high fat protocol.  Is this good or bad? Who knows - but it is what it is.

Based on the more recent studies of the effects of elevated HBA1c levels, it seems prudent to see if this can be kept at 5.5% or below.  My current experiment is designed to see if the higher fat protocol will accomplish this.  Unfortunately I didn't have HBA1c levels done before and after my initial high fat adventure or we might already know the answer to this question.  Hindsight is always 20/20 as they say.....

Lex

Offline razmatazz

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #633 on: September 19, 2009, 03:36:42 am »
just read this http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/search?q=zero+carb on how excess protein can result in higher blood glucose levels...pretty interesting

Offline Danny

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #634 on: September 19, 2009, 04:12:08 am »
Hey Lex,

As you know I'm very excited about your experiment. Can you take me through your line of thought when you settled on 85 grams of protein?

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #635 on: September 19, 2009, 07:23:42 am »
Lex, do you see any potential problems with my current excretion of low-to-moderate (15-40 mg/dl) levels of ketones?

I experienced something similar to your edema experience after you ate some hotel breakfast foods. After drinking more mead than usual two nights ago, I experienced a slight bit of swelling and significant pain in my ankles and feet the next afternoon. A similar amount of mead a couple weeks ago did not produce this side effect, or if it did, I did not notice it. This pain was too strong to not notice it, though perhaps I wrote it off to other reasons last time. This sounds like the diet-induced edema you experienced. Your thoughts?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #636 on: September 19, 2009, 11:23:31 pm »
Lex, do you see any potential problems with my current excretion of low-to-moderate (15-40 mg/dl) levels of ketones?

I experienced something similar to your edema experience after you ate some hotel breakfast foods. After drinking more mead than usual two nights ago, I experienced a slight bit of swelling and significant pain in my ankles and feet the next afternoon. A similar amount of mead a couple weeks ago did not produce this side effect, or if it did, I did not notice it. This pain was too strong to not notice it, though perhaps I wrote it off to other reasons last time. This sounds like the diet-induced edema you experienced. Your thoughts?

I'd drink water instead of mead.  This way I avoid the problem altogether.  Same choice I made with the hotel breakfast foods - I now avoid them like the plague.

Lex

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #637 on: September 19, 2009, 11:30:30 pm »
As you know I'm very excited about your experiment. Can you take me through your line of thought when you settled on 85 grams of protein?

It wasn't rocket science.  I just took my weight at 160 lbs and divided by 2.2 to convert to kilograms.  Then multiplied by 1.2 too get the grams of protein I should need (85 to 90).  This disregards any conversion of protein to glucose so I may be at risk of some muscle sacrifice but we'll see.  It's part of the experiement.  Some "experts" believe that 0.9 grams of protein per Kg of body weight is enough which would work out to 65g of protein but I decided to be a bit more conservative and use 1.2 grams of protein per kg of body weight as I know that some will be converted to glucose.

Lex

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #638 on: September 20, 2009, 12:05:06 am »
just read this http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/search?q=zero+carb on how excess protein can result in higher blood glucose levels...pretty interesting

This post puts a biochemical process behind the practical experience of those of us that have been VLC or ZC for an extended period of time.  He does provide a link to a site that calculates protein need. I found, using the calculator, that I was previously consuming almost exactly what the calculator's recommended 145g protein/150g fat, and still my BG was around 100 and A1c was at 6%.  Having since dropped protein to 85g and raised fat to 200g my BG has dropped to an average of about 85.  Now the question is whether 85g-90g of protein is enough to support my body's protein requirement without sacrificing muscle tissue.  Only time will tell.

Lex

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #639 on: September 20, 2009, 12:27:33 am »
I'd drink water instead of mead.  This way I avoid the problem altogether.  Same choice I made with the hotel breakfast foods - I now avoid them like the plague.

Lex
Heh, heh, yes, from a purely medical standpoint I should avoid mead and don't consider it a healthy food. I've been experimenting with it to see if I could tolerate it during social occasions as an alternative to the beer and wine that are usually offered, since those have had much worse effects on me. Given the results of this latest experiment, it looks like I'll at least have to limit mead and may give up on it as well. I hope I didn't give anyone the impression that I thought it was actually healthy--as I never viewed it that way. I'm not a purist and was trying to meet society part way and appear less of a "fanatic" to others, but I won't do it if it harms my health significantly. Ironically, even such half measures are not nearly enough to satisfy many people, so I recognize that I can't please everyone and I'm not trying to do that either.

I was interested in your thoughts on why certain foods caused edema, or edema-like effects in both of us and why my sensitivity to "unhealthy" foods seems to be increasing (and the same thing happened when I first cut out gluten and dairy, BTW). I have some guesses of my own, but I'm interested in your perspective.

I'd also like your take on urinary ketones. As I recall from your journal, in the past when you increased fats your BG went down to 85, just like now, but your urinary ketones went up. Since you've decided to increase your fat intake, I take it that you don't see excretion of some excess ketones as being a serious issue? Some people claim that it indicates ketosis and lack of full adaptation to a ketogenic diet, though I haven't found evidence that small excesses of ketones has actually harmed someone's health and you've been eating this way long enough that adaptation should have come about by now, I would think.

I cut back on my fats after developing overly sweet saliva--which I figured was from excess ketones or other byproducts of fat consumption, as I really enjoy fat now and was eating more than in the past. The saliva sweetness went away and my urinary ketones dropped from 15-40 to 5 (trace). Since I currently don't get "stops" when eating fats, I use the first signs of sweetness in my saliva as my sign that I'm going overboard on fat.

Thanks again for all your help.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #640 on: September 20, 2009, 12:43:12 am »
Less adaptation towards alcohol does seem a common ZC feature - unsurprising as I believe the alcohol works like carbohydrates re digestion?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #641 on: September 20, 2009, 02:51:39 am »
Lex, re: your toilet stools. Did you buy or make them? If you bought them, where did you get them?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #642 on: September 20, 2009, 05:18:06 am »
Lex, re: your toilet stools. Did you buy or make them? If you bought them, where did you get them?

Mine are E-Z Fold Step Stools by B&R.  I have one white and one black and paid $9.99 each.  Here's a link on Amazon but you can find them much cheaper at camping stores, and other retail outlets so look around.

http://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Fold-9-Inch-Step-Stool/dp/B000VBH9ES/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1253394800&sr=8-1

William

  • Guest
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #643 on: September 20, 2009, 07:06:43 am »
It wasn't rocket science.  I just took my weight at 160 lbs and divided by 2.2 to convert to kilograms.  Then multiplied by 1.2 too get the grams of protein I should need (85 to 90).  This disregards any conversion of protein to glucose so I may be at risk of some muscle sacrifice but we'll see.  It's part of the experiement.  Some "experts" believe that 0.9 grams of protein per Kg of body weight is enough which would work out to 65g of protein but I decided to be a bit more conservative and use 1.2 grams of protein per kg of body weight as I know that some will be converted to glucose.

Lex

This agrees with Phinney's work as reported on the paleofood list --:
Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio

Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:58:11


1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and 
Physical Performance":

"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance 
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum 
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein 
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and 
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg 
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate 
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with 
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total 
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent 
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When 
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000–
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if 
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.

The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg 
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of 
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as 
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given 
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max 
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5 
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.

At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the 
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient 
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher 
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative 
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a 
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition, 
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise 
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean 
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to 
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of 
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and 
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among 
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."


2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low 
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start 
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.   
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your 
weight.  There are a few more calculations involved for the 
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.

Here's a quote from the book:

"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you 
can eat it in unlimited quantities.  When you eat more protein than 
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is 
largely converted  into glucose and burned as fuel.  It turns you 
into a sugar maker and sugar burner!  This is not desirable or healthy."

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #644 on: September 20, 2009, 08:59:24 am »
I cut back on my fats after developing overly sweet saliva--which I figured was from excess ketones or other byproducts of fat consumption, as I really enjoy fat now and was eating more than in the past. The saliva sweetness went away and my urinary ketones dropped from 15-40 to 5 (trace). Since I currently don't get "stops" when eating fats, I use the first signs of sweetness in my saliva as my sign that I'm going overboard on fat.

I kept mine at the same level and at times ate even more than I was eating when we made the "sweet saliva"/ketone connections a couple weeks ago. My sweetness has pretty much disappeared (I will occasionally notice it but very infrequently). Maybe you were just not keto-adapted enough to use up what you were bringing in?
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #645 on: September 21, 2009, 12:58:39 am »
My HbA1C was higher during my high fruit/veg days (5.8%) than today as a carnivore (5.5%). However, my FBG was lower (0.75) than today (0.95).

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #646 on: September 21, 2009, 07:19:19 am »
I kept mine at the same level and at times ate even more than I was eating when we made the "sweet saliva"/ketone connections a couple weeks ago. My sweetness has pretty much disappeared (I will occasionally notice it but very infrequently). Maybe you were just not keto-adapted enough to use up what you were bringing in?
I still get the overly sweet saliva if I eat too much fat and I don't care for it. So I keep my fat levels low enough to avoid it, while still well above the minimum level to avoid protein starvation.

My urinary ketones seem to range from zero at 60% fat up to 30-35 mg/dl at around 80-85% fat. I don't know whether urinary ketones means any harm is occurring or not.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 11:58:26 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #647 on: September 23, 2009, 12:07:59 am »
Dr. Kurt Harris (PaNu blog) is a radiologist by profession and was kind enough to provide an analysis of my recent DEXA bone density scan.  The analysis is very thorough, providing a good bit of background information, and is well worth reading just to gain a better understanding of bone density testing in general.  Here's the link:

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/9/22/bone-density-assessment.html

Lex

Offline Daryl

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #648 on: September 23, 2009, 02:10:25 am »
Lex, good to see Dr Harris' evaluation of your bone tests, and that they are outstanding. I'll also watch with interest your test with the lower protein.

Offline Raw Kyle

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,701
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #649 on: September 23, 2009, 09:11:54 am »
Lex, re: your toilet stools. Did you buy or make them?

This made me lol

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk