Eating cooked meat leads to lower AGEs serum than eating carbs!!!

[Raw Kyle]

My point is that it has many definitions, depending on whether you're in a lab for safety reasons, or whether you're in the woods foraging for food, or whether you're designing labels for food additives. It is a loaded word with no strict definition, therefore it's use in this debate will, imo, not lead to logical conclusions or discovery of any "truths."

[William]

"Poison" is a common word understood by everyone, which is why bullshit artists avoid using it.

[TylerDurden]

I think the word "toxins" has been destroyed in it's meaning as thoroughly as the word "natural."

"A toxin (Greek: ?, toxikon) is a poisonous substance produced by living cells or organisms.[1][2] (Although technically man is a living organism, man-made substances created by artificial processes usually aren't considered toxins by this definition.)"

So by Wiki's definition all those chemicals in cooked food would not even be called toxins.

You're quibbling over mere semantics. Technically, the term for the toxins in cooked foods and other poisons derived from artificial processes would be "toxicant"(plural "toxics"). However, the English language changes continually, and so the word "toxins" is more frequently used nowadays in a more general sense, than the word "toxicant".

My understand of a toxin is that it is a substance that is more expensive for the body to get rid of versus what benefits it gets. You build up enough toxins, and then it reaches a deadly dose where it then could be called a poison. So a toxic dose would be general negative effects, not deadly, or at least not acutely.

I'm afraid now you've seriously got your definitions wrong, now! According to the dictionary the term "poison" does not merely refer to a deadly dose but to any substance which  causes " injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means" taken from:- 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poison

Given that cooked foods undoubtedly do cause illness of various sorts, it would be legitimate to call cooked foods "poisons". However, the term "poisons" is a more vehement word than the term "toxins" so the latter is likely the best term.

Furthermore, every substance, including water and protein and fat, has a toxic and poisonous dose. So to call something a "toxin" is a rather silly description, as one molecule would not be a toxic dose of anything, and a certain number of molecules would be a toxic dose of anything.

Again, this is meaningless.  I am perfectly well aware that all substances in excess are harmful(as originally stated by  Paracelsus), however some substances are particularly harmful in the long-term at much lower amounts than most other substances.




[/quote]

[instant]

1) Study after study has shown repeatedly not only that vegetarians have a longer lifespan than people on cooked diets but also that the more cooked meat there is in the diet, the lower the lifespan . So the claim re AGEs and carbs is problematic at best.

tyler lol
its not because of cooking meat thats causing the problem because of all the sugar processed foods there eating.
See everyone eats meat, but they all eat all the other crpa.


one if vegetarians generally live a healthier life style, ie more active, dont smoke/drink, overall pay attention to what there eating..


look im all for raw food.. but the more and more i dig deeper into a diet that brings optimal health,, eating raw meat is optional. if you like it eat it, if not oh well.. you can be just as healthy eating cooked foods , the main key is what someone is not eating. Why do i know this because everyone over 100 years old eat cooked meat and every tradition eats cookd foods.. Thats why people have great benefits on all different diets, vegetarian, paleo, atkins, mediterrian, all these diets have one thing in common, its avoiding poor food.

A lot of doctors that promote a paleo dont really suggest raw foods that much, ie gary taubes, michael eades. etc.

i dont mean to troll but to suggest all food must be raw is achieve optimal health is just not correct.

[Raw Kyle]

Yes it's semantics, but that's the world of the spin and I'm trying to avoid that world in my discussions. You can easily damn a food by saying it has "toxins" without having to take the time to explain what it may actually do to your body. And in most cases, you don't know what it will do. There are of course toxins in some raw foods, and some members claim those can be medicinal. I could just as easily claim that, since there's no way to prove it.

[instant]

well i always try to todo raw foods but then always eat cooked..

then i find more good information on raw then go back to all raw, then i read cooked food isnt really that bad then i start eating cooked

i can never make up my mind.. 
i mean do like the the way raw makes me feel, but when i cook a meal it makes me feel warm and good.
its very hard

[TylerDurden]

tyler lol
its not because of cooking meat thats causing the problem because of all the sugar processed foods there eating.
See everyone eats meat, but they all eat all the other crpa.

Most unfortunately for you, the studies all show that eating lots of cooked crappy  animal foods, and, by direct  implication, eating fewer amounts of other cooked sugary crap, leads to a lowered lifespan and greatly increased ill-health, overall. And there is suffcient scientific evidence re the direct harm caused by toxins in cooked animal foods, such as AGEs, for no one to convincingly claim that cooked meat is remotely healthy.

one if vegetarians generally live a healthier life style, ie more active, dont smoke/drink, overall pay attention to what there eating..

This is an old canard and forgets that the primary reason why people become vegetarian is not for health reasons but due to concerns re animal rights/-animal-welfare. Plus, vegetarian diets are often just as highly processed as other modern cooked diets, given artificial meat-substitutes etc,, so , clearly there is some other factor present which causes higher ill-health  among consumers of cooked meat - and toxins in cooked meats is the best explanation given so far, in terms of science.

look im all for raw food.. but the more and more i dig deeper into a diet that brings optimal health,, eating raw meat is optional. if you like it eat it, if not oh well.. you can be just as healthy eating cooked foods , the main key is what someone is not eating. Why do i know this because everyone over 100 years old eat cooked meat and every tradition eats cookd foods.. Thats why people have great benefits on all different diets, vegetarian, paleo, atkins, mediterrian, all these diets have one thing in common, its avoiding poor food.

It is very easy for people to become a little healthier by adopting almost any diet other than a junk-food diet. That's because most other diets avoid trans-fats, extremely high cooking temperatures, industrial processing and the like. However, it is seriously misleading to suggest that all these diets are fully healthy- and as we've seen from Price's dodgy claims, tribes on different cooked (but otherwise unprocessed) diets had widely different mortality and health.

Also, it's seriously conceivable that someone eating a rawpalaeo diet might live much longer than anyone else on cooked diets. And lifespan is not necessarily an indication of good-health - look at Winston Churchill who lived till 90 on a cooked diet, but suffered incredibly  poor health in the last few decades of his life.

i dont mean to troll

but to suggest all food must be raw is achieve optimal health is just not correct.

[/quote]

Well, this is the right forum for spouting such far-out claims as the above.

[William]

you can be just as healthy eating cooked foods , the main key is what someone is not eating. Why do i know this because everyone over 100 years old eat cooked meat and every tradition eats cookd foods.

i dont mean to troll but to suggest all food must be raw is achieve optimal health is just not correct.

Yes, a mere 120 or so. We have no reference for those who ate raw paleo. Possible lifespan is unknown.

What is optimal health? For paleoman it was perfect, compared to any modern standard, according to their bones.

[instant]

but its all guess work, we definitely dont know eating all raw lots of meat will bring optimal health; for some may enjoy this and feel good but someone like me i always crave cooked food; i dont know why maybe social conditioning. Theres really no living proof. I dont know of anyone over 100 year olds that even eats close to this way from what i been studying

I did find someone who died that recommended a raw food diet; Armand Tanny, people say he use to eat everything raw including meat, he lived to 90. Im not sure if he only folllowed this diet when he was young or continued to when he was 90.

I want to find the optimal human diet, do i guess and hope that a raw meat based diet is best? or do i study living proof? I dont know.

this is why i am here to learn more about this way.

maybe i'll just force myself todo 100% raw for awhile....

[TylerDurden]

Yes it's semantics, but that's the world of the spin and I'm trying to avoid that world in my discussions. You can easily damn a food by saying it has "toxins" without having to take the time to explain what it may actually do to your body. And in most cases, you don't know what it will do. There are of course toxins in some raw foods, and some members claim those can be medicinal. I could just as easily claim that, since there's no way to prove it.

Perhaps. But while there is some scientific evidence to back the notion of phytochemicals in some raw plant foods being healthy, the only scientific evidence has shown that cooked foods are unhealthy or less healthy. There are no current scientific claims that the heat-created chemicals found in cooked foods, such as AGEs, are beneficial for humans.Not even the dodgy Wrangham makes that claim.

[TylerDurden]

but its all guess work, we definitely dont know eating all raw lots of meat will bring optimal health; for some may enjoy this and feel good but someone like me i always crave cooked food; i dont know why maybe social conditioning. Theres really no living proof. I dont know of anyone over 100 year olds that even eats close to this way from what i been studying.

The cooked food issue is purely social conditioning, given that most of us have no problem(eventually) switching to and enjoying the taste of raw foods over cooked foods. I nowadays gag(and even vomit) after eating many cooked foods, and I suspect that part of the reason is simply switching over to raw and therefore gaining a new kind of conditioning(albeit not social).

And craving a particular food doesn't make it healthy, per se. I used to have enormous cravings for dairy, even when I'd discovered it was clearly doing me harm(indeed cravings are a common characteristic of foods causing allergenic effects).

I did find someone who died that recommended a raw food diet; Armand Tanny, people say he use to eat everything raw including meat, he lived to 90. Im not sure if he only folllowed this diet when he was young or continued to when he was 90.

  I suspect he did this solely as a bodybuilding thing- raw foods were very important in bodybuilding at the time.

I want to find the optimal human diet, do i guess and hope that a raw meat based diet is best? or do i study living proof? I dont know.

Granted, these particular raw animal and vegetable food diets have not , technically, been around for a long while.But there is plenty of evidence re ancient native tribes on rawer, more palaeo diets having much lower rates of health-problems than modern-day cooked-dieters. And the current scientific literature on the heat-created toxins found in cooked foods is now so overwhelming that no one seriously tries to promote well-cooked foods as being healthy - so the argument is already partially won.

As for reasons for going raw, if it makes you feel good to eat cooked foods, fine. But, you will find that the benefits are temporary and come with serious long-term  negative consequences - . For example, early on in the diet, partly for sourcing reasons and because I found the winters very cold while skiing at the time(due to poor circulation), I would eat some cooked meats in the ski-restaurants. Sure, I'd feel hotter, temporarily in the stomach, but I would get headaches and other stuff as my body detoxed the various toxins from my system.

[instant]

I guess the biggest problem for me is texture of raw meat in my mouth... But i have no problem consuming medium rare steaks.
But i do enjoy raw eggs and i take raw liver tablets.

[William]

I guess the biggest problem for me is texture of raw meat in my mouth...

Try jerky dipped in fat.