Author Topic: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh  (Read 10296 times)

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Offline Craig Magnon

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Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« on: September 22, 2009, 08:27:03 am »
I adopted a standard cooked paleo diet a few years ago so those concepts are not so new to me, but the idea eating raw meat is completely novel.  I started paleo because at the time I thought I was HIV positive--I went on convinced of this for nearly five years and was too scared to deal with the repercussions, devastation it might cause for my family, etc.  I finally worked up the guts to get tested and it came back negative--turns out most of my symptoms could be chalked up to good old fashioned candida.  With dietary intervention and more infrequent caving to food addictions, I'm mentally sharper than I've been in years, but I'm still not close to 100%.  I started LDA (low dose antigen) therapy from my allergist earlier this year and am actually very pleased with the results.  The shots I'm self-administering provide a fair amount of relief although they don't work too well if my adrenal functioning starts to go downhill (adrenal problems are just my own speculation, not based on any diagnostics).  I have a number of autoimmune symptoms like tinnitus, carpal tunnel, sore knees and so on.  My tolerance to exercise doesn't go much beyond taking walks and doing stretching.

I've been reading here and there from the forum for a couple of months and started raw meat a little over a week ago.  Through experience with cooked paleo I'd already undergone all requisite saturated fat scare deconditioning and I just jumped in.  I had planned on soaking meat in lemon juice, salt, herbs, etc. but I was already picking at the fat to nibble on while preparing the brine, so I ditched that notion.  I'm laying off the fruit for a time over candida concerns and I'm just finishing up the last of my frozen vegetables, but I can't decide whether to go very low carb or carnivorous.  Any suggestions or major distinctions that might help me decide?  The only reason I'm leaning towards carnivorous is because I'm really enjoying the decrease in food prep time.  Are carnivorous eaters concerned at all about antioxidants?  I do plan on incorporating fruit at some future date if I feel confident in my candida suppression.  What vegetables are easy to digest raw?

Here are a few other questions:
-I've pretty quickly overcome the fear of getting sick from raw meat.  I saw how Tyler and a few others mentioned that there is usually a phobia phase in the beginning that most experienced RAFers overcome, so I decided to bypass that.  I was wondering though if the safety issue is tied to meat quality.  Am I less likely to have problem with high quality meat?  I'm in the process of finding good meat sources here in Pittsburgh.  Am I looking for trouble if I eat something less than grass-fed in a pinch, settling for Whole Foods or worse?

-Also tied to quality, I noticed in Lex's meat dryer instructions he purchased Costco meat.  Is this because most issues of meat quality are issues of the fat profile?--or are there other concerns?  I'm currently unemployed and looking to dine cheap; if I can find some good quality suet and organ meats, can I mix these with grain-fed lean cuts?  Any other tips and tweaks for cheap eating?

-Some cuts I've been working with seem to have a lot of connective tissue--is there any reason to go out of my way to eat or avoid this for matters of either nutrition or digestion?

-I see numerous precautions over novitiates holding off on high meat for what seems like quite a while.  Are these calls for abstinence tied in with something simple like getting used to the taste or should the warnings not be taken lightly?

-I've found a few words on this in the forum, but I'm including a fairly heavy dosing of salt to deal with adrenal problems.  Is this generally acceptable?  My understanding is that as the problem diminishes I can expect my salt cravings to subside as well.  Right now, though, I crave salt about as much as fat.

-Any good advise specific to exercise intolerance? I guess it's probably not a separate issue and most symptoms will tend to come and go together, but I believe exercise to be rather vital and would like to be able to incorporate it in my routine.

-Brain fog is also personally very impairing--any advise on dealing with this?

So far my raw meat experience has been very rewarding.  As far as health benefits incurred, I can say that my carpal tunnel has been slightly less bothersome, but I've only been on a little over a week and I'm still just finishing up my cooked vegetables.  I am really enjoying just being able to take a hunk of meat and eat it without all the prep.  My very first bite made it apparent to me why seasonings are rarely used--it tasted perfect unfussed with, though I have been salting (adrenals).  I've tried beef and lamb so far and found a nice little farmers market where I can get some good meat, but grass-fed beef is not a weekly item there.  I'll have to find other sources.  I've heard of a halal butcher that sells lamb and goat--they're rumored to have fresh meat and I think they get their animals from the Amish in Ohio.  Anyone have good experiences with halal markets?  I notice that I've been digesting very well.  I've already been able to decrease my use of betaine HCL with meals, and for the first time for years I can finish a meal with satisfaction.  I'm usually either still hungry or feel like I've got a rock in my stomach--often both--but never until now have I been simply satisfied.  Eating meat like this feels like the healthy antithesis to sugar cravings.  This is what I'm enjoying most so far.

Anyway, I'd like to say hello to everyone.  I look forward to talking with you.

Thanks,
Craig

Offline djr_81

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 09:22:55 am »
Anyway, I'd like to say hello to everyone.  I look forward to talking with you.

Hi Craig. Welcome to the forum from a fellow relative newbie. :)

I was wondering though if the safety issue is tied to meat quality.  Am I less likely to have problem with high quality meat?  I'm in the process of finding good meat sources here in Pittsburgh.  Am I looking for trouble if I eat something less than grass-fed in a pinch, settling for Whole Foods or worse?

-Also tied to quality, I noticed in Lex's meat dryer instructions he purchased Costco meat.  Is this because most issues of meat quality are issues of the fat profile?--or are there other concerns?  I'm currently unemployed and looking to dine cheap; if I can find some good quality suet and organ meats, can I mix these with grain-fed lean cuts?  Any other tips and tweaks for cheap eating?
This is going to come down to listening to your body.
Since you've been lurking for a while I'm sure you've read the debates about grass v. grain, especially the Omega 3/6 ratios.
I personally have immune-system responses to grainfed which I don't have to grassfed. I actually just confirmed this unfortunately by eating some grainfed steak as it was all we had defrosted and I needed to eat again tonight. I'm now suffering from a sore throat and a runny nose which are worse than the cold my wife came down with over the weekend that I easily fought off.
Try eating grassfed for a bit then give the grainfed a shot. If you feel ok you could make do with it as required but I'd still recommend not making it your mainstay.

-Brain fog is also personally very impairing--any advise on dealing with this?
I dealt with this for years. I found that the first couple weeks eating cooked ZC helped some, changing to raw grainfed helped some but the raw grassfed has cleared it up almost completely. Maybe I might have been low in Omega 3s which could have been impairing some brain function? Whatever it was it's much better now.
I'm actually getting foggy-headed as I type so I guess it's probably not the Omega 3. Probably simple food allergy reaction on my end. l)
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 05:56:11 pm »
I'm just finishing up the last of my frozen vegetables, but I can't decide whether to go very low carb or carnivorous.  Any suggestions or major distinctions that might help me decide?  The only reason I'm leaning towards carnivorous is because I'm really enjoying the decrease in food prep time.  Are carnivorous eaters concerned at all about antioxidants?  I do plan on incorporating fruit at some future date if I feel confident in my candida suppression.  What vegetables are easy to digest raw?

Don't touch tougher, largely nutritionally useless vegetables like broccoli or kale. I myself go in for  raw samphire and raw radishes at times. Otherwise, it's mainly fruit.

As regards the VLC or ZC approach, it makes sense to try going raw, first, and then go for RZC at a much later date when you're used to the whole raw diet. No point in doing both changes at once as that will just overstrain your system. Another consideration is that going RZC just doesn't work for some people, whereas VLC can be tolerated by most.

Quote
Here are a few other questions:
-I've pretty quickly overcome the fear of getting sick from raw meat.  I saw how Tyler and a few others mentioned that there is usually a phobia phase in the beginning that most experienced RAFers overcome, so I decided to bypass that.  I was wondering though if the safety issue is tied to meat quality.  Am I less likely to have problem with high quality meat?  I'm in the process of finding good meat sources here in Pittsburgh.  Am I looking for trouble if I eat something less than grass-fed in a pinch, settling for Whole Foods or worse?

Grainfed meat is  likely to contain mutated harmful bacteria, unlike grassfed. People never get serious issues with grassfed meat//wild game meat whereas some people are highly sensitive to the chemicals/hormones in grainfed meat(like myself) or are  highly sensitive to gluten so are allergic to grainfed meats as a result.

Quote
-Also tied to quality, I noticed in Lex's meat dryer instructions he purchased Costco meat.  Is this because most issues of meat quality are issues of the fat profile?--or are there other concerns?  I'm currently unemployed and looking to dine cheap; if I can find some good quality suet and organ meats, can I mix these with grain-fed lean cuts?  Any other tips and tweaks for cheap eating?

If you eat any raw grainfed meats, at best, the only benefit you'll be getting is a reduction in the amounts of heat-created toxins within your body. Grassfed meat contains various additional nutrients such as omega-3s(useful re brain fog etc.) that grainfed meat doesn't.

Here are some links that all newbies should read:-

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/where-to-buy-cheap-raw-animal-food(please-don't-post-in-this-thread!)/msg2720/#msg2720

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/sticky-advice-for-newbies-wishing-to-slowly-ease-into-a-raw-animal-food-diet/msg110/#msg110




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-Some cuts I've been working with seem to have a lot of connective tissue--is there any reason to go out of my way to eat or avoid this for matters of either nutrition or digestion?

I don't think connective tissue is either particularly healthier than other parts or remotely harmful. You can choose to avoid it or eat it without any side-effects.

Quote
-I see numerous precautions over novitiates holding off on high meat for what seems like quite a while.  Are these calls for abstinence tied in with something simple like getting used to the taste or should the warnings not be taken lightly?

These were misunderstandings. High-meat is only recommended for advanced rawists once they've gotten used to the taste of fresh raw meats - this is solely for taste reasons, as while some people are often used to eating some kinds of raw animal foods prior to going rawpalaeo, they are much less used to the idea of eating aged raw meat.

*High meat should perhaps be eaten by newbies early on if a) they have serious digestive issues(high meat is even more easily digestible than fresh, raw meats and b) they are not so affected by the taste of high-meat as others. I for example, deliberately aged my fresh meats for up to 2 weeks early on in this diet(not to high-meat-state) because my teeth were so loosened from years of eating cooked crap, that I was terrified that chewing tough fresh meats would result in teeth falling out.
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I've found a few words on this in the forum, but I'm including a fairly heavy dosing of salt to deal with adrenal problems.  Is this generally acceptable?  My understanding is that as the problem diminishes I can expect my salt cravings to subside as well.  Right now, though, I crave salt about as much as fat.

I'm not sure if salt is that needed for the adrenals(though some people maye need it). That is, I had severe adrenal burnout prior to going rawpalaeo and salt did nothing for me, if anything in excess it caused an unpleasant sensation or two, and I took that as a sign to stop its use.

Quote
-Any good advise specific to exercise intolerance? I guess it's probably not a separate issue and most symptoms will tend to come and go together, but I believe exercise to be rather vital and would like to be able to incorporate it in my routine.

When I had severe adrenal burnout, one of the major symptoms was muscle-wastage. It took a great deal of time for me to rebuild my muscles, and, in the meantime, muscle-recovery after exercise was abysmal etc. In short, mild aerobic activity such as swimming /situps etc. is probably best until you gradually improve your physical performance so as to benefit more properly from exercise.

Quote
-Brain fog is also personally very impairing--any advise on dealing with this?

Well, I would suggest at the least using Blue Ice (fermented) raw cod liver oil. Perhaps even the Mercola Krill oil product(I've heard it's also good re this).  You might also consider buying the raw(well, freeze-dried) brain, thyroid and adrenal products from drrons.com as well.

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Anyone have good experiences with halal markets?

My experience of halal shops/markets in the UK wasn't a success. They don't seem all that bothered re the organic or grassfed issue. You might consider other ethnic markets as well(I found some good stuff in The Caribbean-derived Brixton Market, for example, and you might find something similiar in your region).
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Offline Craig Magnon

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 03:29:28 am »
Thanks djr and Tyler for the friendly welcoming.

djr:
Quote
This is going to come down to listening to your body.
I've gotten fairly good at this over the years as I'm sure many people in the forum have. My biggest problem here is that I'm usually too impatient to do elimination or any kind of very controlled testing. Usually what happens is that I get really overzealous and make a bunch of changes at once and then have to speculate at what caused me to feel better or worse. One thing that's helped looking through the forum is that I've realized that I need to get a little more serious in this regard. I eat meat alone now and keep my vegetable dishes pretty simple as far as ingredients are concerned. My inclination is to just go carnivorous for a while and experiment here and there with additions but as Tyler mentioned, this might be too drastic all at one time and also some people don't handle ZC well. I get a runny nose response with things I shouldn't eat too--I wish everything that should be abstained from had such an immediate clear indicator--most of the time it's a subtler response.

It's reassuring to know that you've had success with clearing up brain fog from grass-fed. I hope to get the results that so many here have had. I'm very happy with the progress I've made over the years compared to the lows that I've hit, but I'm still at the point where I have a finite level of mental energy for the day and I have to prioritize what I want to accomplish.

Nice to meet you and thanks for the response.

Tyler:
Wow, thanks for clearing up so many of my questions.

Your input on the bacterial aspect of grain vs. grass has given me something to think about. I had pretty well assumed it was mostly an issue of fat ratios or toxins, etc. which might be stored in the fats.

I'm glad to learn that the precautions for high meat are bound solely to taste. I think I can handle it. I immediately loved the taste of raw fat and meat. First meal of liver was not fantastic, but I overcame that by the second try. I get a certain sick pleasure out of eating things that I don't like that I'm convinced are good for me, so I think I'll give high meat a try.

I've seen that many in the forum are fans of fermented cod liver oil for omega 3's among other benefits. I take regular fish oil now. Do you know offhand if this is raw or generally ill-advised for other reasons? I'm sure this is something I can find more on in the forum.

Say I find a source for fresh adrenal, thyroid, etc.--is there a benefit to the freeze-dried over fresh?

I really appreciate the welcoming and all the info.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 04:08:20 am »
re difference between raw and freeze-dried adrenals etc.:- All I've heard is 1 or 2 claims that the raw adrenals they ate caused some reaction(due to too much dose of a particular hormone?)  but this is very rare, most people do fine on raw glands judging from reports(and, IMO, most freeze-dried versions of adrenals/brain/thyroid will either be filled with unhealthy trans-fats used as fillers(eg:- magnesium stearate) and be highly processed - or come in small doses free of all preservatives and other chemicals and  be extremely expensive(such as those from Dr Ron's website).

Re cod liver oil:- Most cod liver oil will be heated and have extra preservatives added to it. The only product I know of which sells genuine raw (fermented) cod liver oil is "Blue Ice". Other than that, unless a company specifically mentions the total lack of additives/preservatives in the cod liver oil and doesn't frequently mention it's raw, then you can be sure it's low quality, heated and filled with preservatives.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 05:53:08 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 05:37:19 am »
Hi Craig.

...I have a number of autoimmune symptoms like tinnitus, carpal tunnel, sore knees and so on.  My tolerance to exercise doesn't go much beyond taking walks and doing stretching.
When I was on Paleo with lots of plant foods (mostly raw) and mostly cooked meats I had occasional tinnitus, mild carpal tunnel pain, sore muscles, cracking joints, etc.

Quote
...I can't decide whether to go very low carb or carnivorous.  Any suggestions or major distinctions that might help me decide?
Carnivorous works well for me, but is not for everyone.  Works best if you have complete control over your food and keep plant foods out of the house.

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The only reason I'm leaning towards carnivorous is because I'm really enjoying the decrease in food prep time.
Me too.

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 Are carnivorous eaters concerned at all about antioxidants?  
No, Lex Rooker covered that in his journal, I think. Meats and animal fats appear to give me all the nutrients I need except vitamin D--whose main source for Stone Agers was the sun but which you can also supplement with fermented cod liver oil (as Tyler mentioned), but it's very expensive. Wild fatty raw fish are a decent food source of vitamin D, but they are also expensive.

Here's an opinion from the PaNu doctor on vitamin D in carnivorous diets: "The Inuit probably got both K2 and VIt D from organ meats, and obviously, fish livers." --Kurt G. Harris MD, September 22, 2009,  http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/9/22/bone-density-assessment.html. I figured there was significant vitamin D in GF animal livers too, but I don't know how much.

My potassium and zinc deficiencies actually resolved on a carnivorous raw Paleo diet (CRPD). I still have some mild magnesium deficiency symptoms, though they also improved on a CRPD. Surprisingly, meat also contains antioxidants (see http://nutrition.suite101.com/article.cfm/natural_antioxidants_in_meat_eggs_and_milk). I wonder why I never heard about that until I came to this forum?

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I do plan on incorporating fruit at some future date if I feel confident in my candida suppression.  What vegetables are easy to digest raw?
I find spring greens to be the easiest. They are very tender. I don't bother with them very often anymore, though. I mainly eat them in public situations to reduce the freaking out of other people.

Quote
I was wondering though if the safety issue is tied to meat quality.  Am I less likely to have problem with high quality meat?
I don't know the data on this, but as Tyler indicated multiple sources have claimed that grassfed meats are less likely to have pathogenic bacteria. They can still get it, though, as Lex pointed out once, because the bacteria are spreading. If you eat only raw the chances of your getting a bad reaction to pathogenic bacteria are reportedly reduced.

Quote
 I'm in the process of finding good meat sources here in Pittsburgh.  Am I looking for trouble if I eat something less than grass-fed in a pinch, settling for Whole Foods or worse?
I've been using lean commercial meats for my low-heated (uncooked) beef jerky for years now without a problem. No guarantees, though. I mainly buy grassfed for my fatty meats and fats (ground meats and suet), although I occasionally buy grainfed marrow, because grassfed marrow is rare in my area. The local bison and venison I buy are mostly grassfed, but not completely.

Quote
-Also tied to quality, I noticed in Lex's meat dryer instructions he purchased Costco meat.  Is this because most issues of meat quality are issues of the fat profile?
Yes

Quote
--or are there other concerns?
Price

Quote
I'm currently unemployed and looking to dine cheap; if I can find some good quality suet and organ meats, can I mix these with grain-fed lean cuts?  
I would think so, just don't overdo it on the liver, to avoid potential vitamin A overdose--which I have heard rumor of happening to some Weston A Price dieters.

Quote
Any other tips and tweaks for cheap eating?
Buy in bulk when you're ready. My main beverage is water from the tap, which is free. I sometimes buy mineral water too.

Here are my current prices for my staple foods (I haven't started buying in bulk yet):
grassfed ground beef: $5.84-5.99 /lb
no-antibiotics-or-hormones local ground bison (much better tasting than the national stuff): 6.99 /lb
no-antibiotics-or-hormones local ground venison (when available): 7.99 /lb
GF suet: .90-1.49 /lb
grain-fed top round steak: 2.99 - 4.99 /lb
water: free

I was eating more wild seafood in season before, but it got real pricey in my area this summer.

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-Some cuts I've been working with seem to have a lot of connective tissue--is there any reason to go out of my way to eat or avoid this for matters of either nutrition or digestion?
GF meat and suet seems to have less of the fibrous and grizzly type strings and bits in it for some reason, but I don't think it's worth going out of your way to avoid eating, as connective tissues are a natural part of an animal's body.

Quote
-I've found a few words on this in the forum, but I'm including a fairly heavy dosing of salt to deal with adrenal problems.  Is this generally acceptable?  
If you're deficient it is. There is sufficient salt in meat for people who are not deficient.

Quote
My understanding is that as the problem diminishes I can expect my salt cravings to subside as well.  Right now, though, I crave salt about as much as fat.
The carnivorous northern Inuit have the lowest tolerance for salt ever measured. My own taste for salt has diminished dramatically. Most salted foods taste WAY oversalted to me now and give me salt-induced nausea if I eat more than a little.

Quote
-Any good advise specific to exercise intolerance? I guess it's probably not a separate issue and most symptoms will tend to come and go together, but I believe exercise to be rather vital and would like to be able to incorporate it in my routine.
Exercise intolerance should resolve once you find the diet that works for you. If you get enough sleep you'll find your energy increases dramatically and you'll be itching to exercise.

Quote
-Brain fog is also personally very impairing--any advise on dealing with this?
Drastically reducing carbs down to about 2% or less of my diet was the only thing that worked for me to completely clear it. As mentioned, omega 3 fats also help (60% or more of a healthy human brain is composed of omega 3 fats).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 06:04:10 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Craig Magnon

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2009, 08:18:27 am »
Thanks Phil for the extensive response. Lots of helpful info.

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2009, 10:24:03 am »
Thanks Phil for the extensive response. Lots of helpful info.
You're welcome, Craig. I'm in the immersion phase of this WOE right now. It's had such quick, positive effects on me that I'm intrigued and trying to learn all I can about why it's working and how and excitedly sharing the results of my self-experiments and research. After I've absorbed a lot and my improvements begin to plateau my contributions will probably drop off quite a bit, but I'll try to continue to contribute now and then.

It's also nice to have an outlet like this to talk about this stuff, because other than a couple dozen people, most people in the real world are turned off by any discussion of positive health benefits. Ironically, since I'm a good listener, many people love sharing their health problems with me (Florida was the worst for this), but most react negatively when I suggest that their suffering could be alleviated. Many seem more interested in being consoled than helped. Even people on their death beds. This puzzles me a bit, because when I was chronically ill I would have tried nearly anything that didn't seem like it would do major harm if I thought it had the slightest chance of helping. But most people seem passively resigned to their fates--more committed to social conformity than they are to their own health and freedom to choose. How unfortunate.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline robbie1687

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2009, 10:35:47 pm »
-Brain fog is also personally very impairing--any advise on dealing with this?
I agree with what the others have said about omega 3 and low carbs.   My experience was the same, they made me mentally more clear.

I would just add that you might want to think about the extreme ketogenic diets that doctors use to treat epileptic children.    You can adapt the principles to a raw paleo diet.  The principles are consistent with the earlier advice.

The basic idea of these medical diets is that they force the brain to use ketones rather than glucose to the maximum extent possible.  The diets are complicated because they are used on children (who tend to be noncompliant and for whom inadequate protein has much worse consequences than it does in adults) but basically, you limit protein to what you absolutely need and maximize fat, particularly medium chain saturated fat which (for practical purposes) means you eat a lot of coconut oil.

I tried this sort of diet for about a month to see if it would help my migraines, and it did for a while.  It also seemed to increase mental clarity.

I would also add -- and I'm speculating here -- that the reason why most people benefit from omega 3 supplements is because they are eating a ton of industrial vegetable oils and grain-fed meats that contain whopping overdoses of omega 6.  But if most of your fatty acids come from grass fed meat, which has a healthy 3:6 ratio, then I'm not sure the supplements are beneficial.    I'm not an expert on this,  but since I've switched to grass-fed meat, I've stopped taking omega 3 supplements.  I've never liked the idea of of consuming artificially extracted polyunsaturated fat since it's very susceptible to oxidation.


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 06:18:27 pm »


I would just add that you might want to think about the extreme ketogenic diets that doctors use to treat epileptic children.    You can adapt the principles to a raw paleo diet.  The principles are consistent with the earlier advice.

The basic idea of these medical diets is that they force the brain to use ketones rather than glucose to the maximum extent possible.  The diets are complicated because they are used on children (who tend to be noncompliant and for whom inadequate protein has much worse consequences than it does in adults) but basically, you limit protein to what you absolutely need and maximize fat, particularly medium chain saturated fat which (for practical purposes) means you eat a lot of coconut oil.

Ketogenic diets are extremely problematic as they include artificial sweeteners and dairy and there are multiple side-effects reported such as kidney stones. Not a good model to follow, even with a raw version.



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I would also add -- and I'm speculating here -- that the reason why most people benefit from omega 3 supplements is because they are eating a ton of industrial vegetable oils and grain-fed meats that contain whopping overdoses of omega 6.  But if most of your fatty acids come from grass fed meat, which has a healthy 3:6 ratio, then I'm not sure the supplements are beneficial.    I'm not an expert on this,  but since I've switched to grass-fed meat, I've stopped taking omega 3 supplements.  I've never liked the idea of of consuming artificially extracted polyunsaturated fat since it's very susceptible to oxidation.

There's a lot of anti-PUFA hysteria by the LC crowd but it is unwarranted, really - as long as the raw/fermented cod liver oil is kept in the fridge, there's no danger of rancidity. As for omega-3s, given that most people have been eating grainfed meat for decades prior to going rawpalaeo, and given that many people are sometimes forced to eat cooked foods due to social constraints(or raw grainfed meat if grassfed meat is temporarily unavailable), it is a very good idea to take omega-3 supplements to make up for this lack(in the case of cod liver oil, the raw/fermented version).

"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2009, 05:32:42 am »
Ketogenic diets are extremely problematic as they include artificial sweeteners and dairy and there are multiple side-effects reported such as kidney stones. Not a good model to follow, even with a raw version.

The word ketogenic has nothing to do with artificial sweeteners or dairy. Just because some doctors use those things to get kids with epilepsy to be able to eat cakes and stuff and stay VLC and not get seizures, has nothing to do with the raw paleo application of a ketogenic diet.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2009, 04:27:52 pm »
The word ketogenic has nothing to do with artificial sweeteners or dairy. Just because some doctors use those things to get kids with epilepsy to be able to eat cakes and stuff and stay VLC and not get seizures, has nothing to do with the raw paleo application of a ketogenic diet.

There was a suggestion that the ketogenic diets espoused by some doctors was beneficial and I was merely pointing out that there were many side-effects involved(not necessarily related to dairy or artificial sweeteners).
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2009, 07:01:38 am »
I think the suggestion was that ketogenic diets are healthy, not the ones espoused by doctors that include artificial sweeteners. Although those diets can keep some epileptic kids from seizing, so I'd say that's healthier than the alternative SAD diet.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2009, 10:00:44 am »
I think the suggestion was that ketogenic diets are healthy, not the ones espoused by doctors that include artificial sweeteners. Although those diets can keep some epileptic kids from seizing, so I'd say that's healthier than the alternative SAD diet.
Yeah, that's what I understand people here to mean when they say ketogenic diets--healthy high-fat diets. I give people here the benefit of the doubt that they are not advocating artificial sweeteners, because those are neither raw nor Paleo and are a very recent invention, and I've never seen anyone here advocate them. It's the high-fat and low-carb aspect of ketogenic diets that people tend to advocate, not sweeteners. Artificial sweeteners are one of those compromises that doctors make for patients who simply refuse to go without sweeteners. It's unfortunate that some people feel it necessary to make such a compromise.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 10:08:16 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Craig Magnon

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2009, 03:12:41 am »
Thanks everyone for the continued replies.  I just moved to a new apartment and will probably be using the internet exclusively at the library for a while, so my replies might be sporadic.

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I'm in the immersion phase of this WOE right now.

Phil, I understood the whole of your reply, but what does WOE stand for?

Anyway, I'm still looking for good beef sources.  I've emailed two suppliers who vend at a local farmer's market that runs through November, but they're not there every week--I'm trying to track down what dates they'll be there.  There is a pastured pig vendor there who appears every week and I got some tasty back fat from him.  I'm going to try to get a load of beef suet before the season ends and render it for winter.  Does anyone have storage tips concerning appropriate containers to use.  Do you guys worry about BPA, etc. from plastic like if I were just to buy a big pail from Home Depot?  Also, I don't know why this would be problematic, but would I be ok to render suet and lard mixed together if my sources required it?

Things are going well with my experimentation with more ups than downs at this point.  I've been able to further cut back on digestive aids requiring none at all with a smaller meat only meal and within the last few days my cravings for salt have drastically diminished.  I previously found it quite satisfying to pop a bit of course grain sea salt in my mouth, but now it almost burns my mouth and makes me grimace.  I still like some on my meat at this point, but yesterday I oversalted employing my habitual amount and my lips were burning for a while after I finished eating.  The stumbling block I've had is not adapting to raw meat but to raw veg.  A small onion and daikon radish over the course of two meals gave me pretty fierce diarrhea for two days.  Most of what I've come across with candida research is something along the lines of your digestion is shot, cook your vegetables, blend them if necessary.  Have other people had past troubles along these lines?  Is the diarrhea a transitory phase that will go away as I adapt to the diet?  I think the onion was pretty harsh.  Since the bout of diarrhea I've been pretty much keeping carnivorous.  Today is also my first day experimenting coconut oil free.  I never thought it's been a source of trouble for me before, but after reading a lot of Tyler's precautions I'll give a go at abstaining for a while--the lard is much more satisfying anyway as far as warding off hunger hours after a meal.

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2009, 06:36:13 am »
Phil, I understood the whole of your reply, but what does WOE stand for?
Way Of Eating. Diet has acquired bad associations. WOE has less baggage.

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Does anyone have storage tips concerning appropriate containers to use.
The Native Americans used parfleche bags made of animal skins to hold fat and pemmican. I suppose that would be the best, but I don't know.

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The stumbling block I've had is not adapting to raw meat but to raw veg.  A small onion and daikon radish over the course of two meals gave me pretty fierce diarrhea for two days.  Most of what I've come across with candida research is something along the lines of your digestion is shot, cook your vegetables, blend them if necessary.  Have other people had past troubles along these lines?
Most plant foods seem to be a problem for me, whether cooked or raw. When I was still eating plants I ate most of them raw or steamed or briefly stir-fried because I preferred the taste. I don't care for veggies that have been cooked to death. It did seem to me that steamed or stir fried broccoli or cauliflower was easier to digest than raw, though I preferred the taste of the latter.

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I think the onion was pretty harsh.
Onion was one of the few veggies I almost always ate cooked, as it did a number on my sensitive stomach and gave me heartburn if I ate it raw. I think it must be acidic when raw.

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Since the bout of diarrhea I've been pretty much keeping carnivorous.  Today is also my first day experimenting coconut oil free.  I never thought it's been a source of trouble for me before, but after reading a lot of Tyler's precautions I'll give a go at abstaining for a while--the lard is much more satisfying anyway as far as warding off hunger hours after a meal.
I had trouble with coconut oil myself, and I'm still not sure why.

Kidney stones were mentioned--I used to get chronic kidney stones and had chronically dark and thick urine. My urologist said the stones were totally unrelated to diet. He recommended drinking 11 glasses of water a day but said I was at high risk of getting them recurrently no matter what I did. The water didn't help, but the urine cleared up and the stones went away 5 years ago when I went standard Paleo and haven't returned since. My urinary function is even better on a raw carnivorous diet.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 06:43:01 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2009, 12:29:09 pm »
Does anyone have storage tips concerning appropriate containers to use.  Do you guys worry about BPA, etc. from plastic like if I were just to buy a big pail from Home Depot?  Also, I don't know why this would be problematic, but would I be ok to render suet and lard mixed together if my sources required it?

Yes, I'm concerned about BPA/xeno-estrogens, so I only pemmican in litre freezer bags for travel and short term stores.
For long term, which I hope will be most of my stash if I can make more than I eat, Mason jars are the way.
I render fat in big enameled pots, sold for use in canning veggies.


 
Quote
Today is also my first day experimenting coconut oil free.  I never thought it's been a source of trouble for me before, but after reading a lot of Tyler's precautions I'll give a go at abstaining for a while--the lard is much more satisfying anyway as far as warding off hunger hours after a meal.

Coconut oil never did any good for me. Isn't lard somewhat perishable? For short term use I would use it if I could get the un-tainted stuff.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2009, 04:46:50 pm »
Most people have transitionary effects such as diarrhea or constipation when transferring to raw. It's just part of detox. For example, as soon as I switched to eating raw meats, I had constant green diarrhea for the first  2-3 days, forcing me to visit the bathroom every 15 minutes.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2009, 08:39:37 pm »
Curious. I didn't experience this "detox." Any idea why?

Thanks for the container tips, William. I've been gradually adopting a more natural lifestyle as I've become more educated about practical reasons for doing so, so I'll take such suggestions into consideration. I wouldn't be surprised if future studies find that ALL plastic food containers have long-term toxic side effects, not just BPA/xeno-estrogen plastics. However, I have to admit that it's not nearly as high on my priorities list as eating the right foods. There's also the question about what processes and materials the mason jar and enameled pot manufacturers are using. My guess, however, would be that they would be more natural and therefore likely safer. One thing that the field of Paleo/evolutionary nutrition has taught me is that the burden of proof should be on the NEW foods, materials, processes, etc. For ten thousand years many people have been eating agrarian foods, assuming them to be safe, all the while they were not. So if humans can go on ignorantly eating toxic foods for ten thousand years, it seems prudent to be suspicious about products invented within the last half century that are made from toxic petrochemicals.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 09:16:22 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline RawZi

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Re: Greetings and questions from Pittsburgh
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 04:53:23 pm »
Most people have transitionary effects such as diarrhea or constipation when transferring to raw. It's just part of detox. For example, as soon as I switched to eating raw meats, I had constant green diarrhea for the first  2-3 days, forcing me to visit the bathroom every 15 minutes.

Curious. I didn't experience this "detox." Any idea why?

    I went through it like you Tyler, I think for a couple of weeks instead, but in my case I was changing to (cultured raw) butter and (raw free range) egg yolks.  I counted it as a huge blessing rather than detox, as I had been bound up terribly for the better part of nine years (straight).  It may have been the butter that cleaned my intestines, rheuma and cellulite out.  Raw meat helps me do number two regularly, whereas vegan foods or cooked foods just don't.  High meat kind of has the effect of raw egg or green juice.  I rarely if ever do green juice or egg anymore, I've been eating marrow or suet, and I have high meat, but I guess I'm saving it till I need it, as I don't think there's a problem right now. 
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

 

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