Weaning

[sabertooth]

I was forced to make mt own custom formula when my wife couldn't keep up milk production for my second and third child's ravonous appetites.

Even before I discovered raw animal food diet, I was acutely aware of the piss poor quality of nearly all commercial baby formula.

What I did was take this stuff called Baby's only toddler formula(its the only organic formula that doesn't contain the toxic genetically modified fungus oil that is being called DHA. This is my latest conspiracy.

In 2004 the FDA Made it mandatory for DHA be added to all infant formula(seems reasonable)
Wrong, the only form of DHA being used is a profanely toxic form, that is derived from a Genetically modified fungus and extracted with hexane.

The trials on this stuff they call DHA showed serious concerns about sideeffects, It was given approval anyway and is now in every commercial formula. The brains of the baby's fed this stuff may be negatively effected by this unnatural form of DHA( this is a warning please take this threat seriously

http://cornucopia.org/DHA/DHA_Update_2_09.pdf
I believe this is more sinister, the trials of this stuff proved that it is toxic but it was forced into infant formula anyway, I know this stuff causes more than Just digestive issues, It builds inferior brains.Please under no circumstance should you feed this to your infant.

Anyway I take 2 parts baby's only toddler formula(fungus oil free) and 1 part goats milk then top it off with a teaspoon of raw coconut oil, once a day I add Baby's only DHA(egg based)This is extremely digestible and has helped me to grow the most beautiful babies you ever saw:



 

[PaleoPhil]

...I'm still a little unsure what the consensus is on methods of making 'raw' pemmican particularly when my absence from the forum meant I was only sporadically following threads.  I got the impression that William heats his fat greatly in excess of 118 deg C but considers it raw because he filters out the deleterious proteins.  Inga, I believe, makes her raw pemmican using bone marrow which would be delicious but I have great trouble sourcing even tiny quantities of this, unfortunately.

Could you point me in the direction of any specific threads or links with instructions on making raw pemmican Phil?

Marrow is what I was thinking of. I gave up trying to understand why William thought his pemmican was raw. I tried coconut oil pemmican once, but it tasted so nasty to me and made me so nauseas that I haven't been able to eat coconut oil again since.

I received a late response from one of the La Leche League people. This should get Tyler good and riled up:

I asked: I have a question: do you know what the range of time that Paleolithic or modern hunter gatherer women breastfed their infants was? I have seen figures ranging from 2 to 9 years, with 3-4 years being the most commonly avg. length of time reported.

Michelle has left a new comment on the post "La Leche League":

Hi there! Sorry for the late response but for some reason I don't get notification when people respond. I was scrolling through old posts when I saw this.
From what I have read, anthropologically the weaning age is from 2 to 7 years. Sadly, most American women fall way short of this.

That fits in with what I've read in anthropology books.

That being said, I think the main reason hunter gatherer women breast fed their babies more than 6 months was because breast milk is conveniently available healthy food, so why not use it. When the baby teeth come in, I figure it's probably OK to feed an infant mostly RPD foods. Ray Audette had good results feeding his son mostly pemmican starting at the age of 6 months (that should also get Tyler going ).

[Michael]

This should get Tyler good and riled up: ..... (that should also get Tyler going ).

ha ha    Over to you Tyler!   

PaleoPhil, I'm glad that I wasn't the only one confused and mystified by William's pemmican posts!   I would dearly love a sufficient and reliable source of marrow but just can't seem to get it.  Coconut oil pemmican?!  My god, you're brave even trying it.  Just the thought makes me feel extremely nauseous right now!

My partner is still feeding vast quantities of breast milk to my son daily and, importantly, eating well herself.  He'll be 15 months old in a few days time.  I'm hoping she'll keep it up until at least 2yrs old which I'd be exceptionally happy with!  He has plenty of teeth already but rarely bites her.  No molars yet though so chewing meats etc is not possible.  I'm hoping to get him on the good stuff as soon as the molars are through and he's learned what they're for! 

Hey, sabertooth.  Truly beautiful babies!  Good work!

[raw-al]

Michael,
Breezed through the posts and here are a few thoughts;
Honey according to Ayurveda is only poisonous when heated hotter than then temperature of tea that you can drink. So never cook with it.
My Tibetan friend tells me that back home kids would sometimes suckle on the yaks in their youth. (obviously with their mother also)
I was listening to an audiobook recently (i forget which one) in which the author discussed a female anthropologist who worked in Africa in remote areas studying the locals who still lived as in the past. She concluded a bunch of things but a very interesting one was that the women there suckled the children for long periods and were regularly pregnant. Therefore these women had very few periods over their lives, say in the region of 100 - 125 as opposed to western women who would typically have 400 periods. She deduced from studying the effects of differing hormones on the body that the long lactation combined with the pregnancy was responsible for their remarkable lack of cancers associated with women. The menstruation in the first world countries was ravaging the women. So your wife is not just doing her child a favour. Good for her. I was breastfed.

[TylerDurden]

Well, I've already pointed out numerous ways in which pemmican can be seen as being unhealthy. As for the la leche league, they are extremists so can't be trusted re their claims. I would say, 2-4 years is more normal for HGs judging from reports, and besides the primary reason they did such breast-feeding was due to the contraceptive nature of breastfeeding. In the age of the Pill, weaning should be done much earlier. Besides, on a logical, evolutionary and scientific basis, babies should be given solid food once their first teeth are fully grown.

[PaleoPhil]

Well, Tyler, your views apparently aren't as different from mine as I expected. Yes, 2-4 years seem to be the most common weaning points for HGs, based on what I've read in scientific sources, and that fits nicely in the 2-7 years range, which is the total range (also from scientific sources)--meaning it would include the more extreme outliers of HG groups. It doesn't mean that 7 years is a common weaning age, if that's how you took it. So it looks our numbers jibe, but no doubt you'll still find a way to disagree.

I'm also not implying that 2-4 years is optimal or necessary in today's modern world. Nor am I implying that zero other foods should be eaten before weaning. IIRC, Ray Audette started giving his son pemmican (sinfully heated--bad Ray, bad! ) at the age of 6 months. Nor am I implying by mentioning Ray's version of pemmican that I think anyone should heat their pemmican the way Ray does, as I've seen enough of your rants on heated pemmican (but I hadn't seen you rant about LLL--who I'm not promoting, BTW--in quite a while, so that was entertaining--thanks. Good times, good times. ). It's been quite a while since I've eaten pemmican of any sort, incidentally.

Your apparent confusion about RAW pemmican is understandable, given William's bizarre past posts on the subject. You may have missed my original question: "I wonder if a raw form of pemmican would be tasty--like air-dried beef jerky blended with marrow or other soft animal fat that might not need to be rendered?" (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/weaning/msg42882/#msg42882; note also that it was a question, not an assertion.) Does that not qualify as sufficiently raw? It's basically Lex's RAW mix (NOT his pemmican) except that air-dried lean meat is used instead of ground beef/organs and marrow instead of suet. If you've got some aversion to the term "pemmican" (perhaps due to William-inspired flashbacks? ), perhaps you can suggest another one-or-two-word term?

At any rate, I'm pretty sure Michael understood what I meant on these subjects, even if you didn't.

[TylerDurden]

The whole point of pemmican is that it is meant to be a food stored for long periods - a raw version would not last as long and therefore be useless as a stored food. So, I don't see the point of laboriously processing raw meats via drying in order to make pemmican. 

[Michael]

I agree that 2-4 years seems the most reasonable timescale for breastfeeding/weaning.  As a note of interest, I have noticed that Charlie is becoming increasingly disinterested in breast milk already at 15 months old.  He still relishes it upon rising and before bed but, other times, is often happy to go without or takes more interest in the external environment instead.

For the record, I did understand what you meant Phil thanks.  If I could obtain the marrow, I would have no hesitation in making some raw pemmican for Charlie as I feel it would be a wonderful food source for him and may be something that he'd eat.  I agree that perhaps we should 're-brand' it to disassociate it from it's rendered suet counterpart.  With the elements of 'pemmican', 'bone marrow as fat' and 'raw' I would suggest, perhaps, 'prawmiccone'?   

To update the thread, I can now advise that I've managed to get Charlie to eat his first bowl of RAF!  I'd frozen some wild alaskan salmon that wasn't going to get eaten in time.  With this process supposedly removing the parasite issues that are still a concern for me with raw fish/seafood, I proceeded to defrost and mash this up for him.  He spat it out as usual!  So, I added a teaspoon of raw butter and dehydrated it at 95deg for an hour or so which greatly improved the texture.  He's eaten the entire steak!    I'll be experimenting along these lines with other fish too and am hopeful that, eventually, I'll be in a position to feed him a good variety of raw fish, seafood and meats.  Of course, I won't be freezing the meats but hope he'll eat them as his teeth continue to develop.

Raw-al, thanks for your thoughts.  You're most fortunate to have been breast-fed and should thank your mother for giving you such a wonderful start in life.  I'd read about the studies you mentioned somewhere too recently.  I think the benefits of breastfeeding for mother and child are limitless!  I could relate a further personal tale which may be relevant to such discussion - My ex-partner and the mother of my 12 year old daughter sadly died 18 months ago following a long battle with breast cancer.  She was just 34.  She breast-fed my daughter for just over 12 months.  She had 2 further young children with her new husband who were aged 3 and 4 when she died (too closely spaced!) neither of which were breast-fed.  Of course, there were probably other factors too (poor diet, heavy mobile phone use, living near a pylon etc) but I think the breast-feeding and lack of spacing on her two later children were a big factor in her breast cancer.

[raw-al]

Michael,
Interesting, I know when I mention these studies I am sometimes concerned that women who are childless by choice or by chance may feel bad and I therefore feel I should withhold comments because I don't think that making someone feel bad is good.

My GF was unable to breastfeed (very long story) but she did her best and found a book written by a lady who had a theory about feeding the child with food for their brain. She diligently followed the instructions and low and behold he graduated from Yale in medicine and psychiatry at the top of his class and went to Harvard to do his fellowship in child and adolescent psy. at the top of the class. He is brilliant, athletic in a healthy way and very kind.

[Michael]

raw-al, good point.  Although I'm aware of such possibilities and manage to refrain at most times my poor memory and eagerness/passion for the subject matter can sometimes lead to small indiscretions!  I hope nobody here took offence at my comments and offer my apologies if they made anybody feel bad.  I wasn't intending to be at all judgmental and, even speaking from my social work background, am sure that all mother's/parents do the best they can given their own unique circumstances.

Wonderful success story raw-al!  That's incredible!  Congratulations and thanks for sharing.  I'm assuming this is also your son?  I'd be interested in details of the lady/book.  Of course, as parents, we all want our children to achieve great success (and happiness) and I'd be extremely proud if Charlie were to do half as well as your son.  Importantly, I think, was your final note that he's also very kind.  Without such humanity I think the rest is worthless.

[raw-al]

My GF's son is the progeny of a prior engagement. I have tried to squeeze the name of the book but it has faded from her memory. Apparently the mixture that she fed her son was quite interesting. I will try again for the name of the book or author. He is 36 now.

[PaleoPhil]

Tyler, you may not see the point, but I (and Michael) see several, many of which I have related to you in the past, but for some reason you have repeatedly ignored my answers and obsess over long-term preservation, which few here other than Lex seem interested in. I myself have zero interest currently in long term preservation except for the purpose of aging or fermenting meat.

Unless one is trying to save money or time or ferment foods, I don't see a lot of point in making foods last forever in the modern world, as fresh food is always readily available. I do have an interest in making tasty healthy foods that I can port around and easily and quickly chew and digest and that might help keep my food intakes and body weight up. RAW pemmican (such as raw, air-dried jerky plus raw marrow) has NOTHING to do with long term food preservation (as far as I know--unless one can make high meat with it). I cannot account for why you would imagine that someone would be talking about long-term food preservation when discussing fully RAW pemmican.

---*---

Sidebar:

I know you see heated pemmican as evil, so please spare us the diatribes, but there's also a potential reason for me (not you) to consider eating heated pemmican and heated beef jerky instead of raw beef. According to studies, heating the lean portion of beef denatures the bovine serum albumin (a potentially antigenic protein which can trigger antibodies that I tested positive for) and thus partially inactivates it. This is something that has been discussed in this forum multiple times in the past.

"Recent findings: Heating generally decreases protein allergenicity by destroying conformational epitopes."

([urel=http://journals.lww.com/co-allergy/Abstract/2009/06000/Rare,_medium,_or_well_done__The_effect_of_heating.11.aspx]"Rare, medium, or well done? The effect of heating and food matrix on food protein allergenicity,"[/url] Current Opinion in Allergy & Clinical Immunology)

It's interesting that you yourself have argued in the past that heating the lean portion of meat is less of a problem than heating the fat, and you've apparently even eaten cooked lean meat at times, and the BSA issue coincides interestingly with this. Maybe one option for me would be raw marrow mixed with heat-dried jerky. I'm also considering spending more to buy other meats that I don't develop as much antibodies to, but I've got to find my test results. Please note: I'm not advocating this for anyone else, so spare me the lectures.

My hair loss and constipation seem to have increased a bit over the last few months, so I think my sensitivity to the BSA in raw lean beef may be increasing mildly. Danny Roddy's experience seems to also suggest that BSA in raw beef may be the main issue:

Yes, my hair loss has ceased for the time being. My hair has gotten thicker and more robust as well. The pain and inflammation I used to experience is no more on pemmican.

In the interest of full disclosure a week on raw introduced me to shedding. I'm back on pemmican.

I'm not sure if there's a direct correlation, but I've noticed that my five o' clock shadow has gotten a little darker since I switched to muscle fat.

January 11, 2010 |  Danny Roddy
http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/5/17/diseases-of-civilization-hair-loss.html#comment6889599

My overall experience is not identical to Danny's, though, as he said he gets colder when he eats ZC and gets warmer when he eats carbs like potatoes. For me it is the opposite.

[TylerDurden]

My point was simply that pemmican was always meant as a food to be brought along while travelling, because of its long-term durability . Otherwise, if long-term storage is not an issue, it makes more sense to just bring along some raw animal foods. in the form of raw eggs or raw muscle-meats or whatever. Though perhaps raw pemmican might look more like a cooked/processed food once it's been ground up or whatever? That would be useful in social situations, I suppose.


I am deeply sceptical re notions of allergenicity of raw meats. Granted, there are now more and more people with very unusual allergies due to faulty environment(lack of exposure to sufficient bacteria etc.) but there are better ways to get round this sucha s sensitisation over time rather than processing a food. Anyway, last I checked, cooking usually increases the allergenicity of a food(that's already been proven as regards comparison studies between raw and pasteurised dairy).

I am not so bothered re your mention of "raw pemmican", I do draw the line though at frequent mentions by others re rendering fats, which is extremely unhealthy.

[PaleoPhil]

I came across another source on weaning age among traditional peoples that fits in pretty well with the others:

"Babies are wholly breast-fed until the end of the 2nd year when meat is added to their diet. Children often nurse irregularly until the age of 4 or 6." (Studies on the Metabolism of Eskimos, by Peter Heinbecker, the Departments of Biological Chemistry and Physiology, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis. Received for publication, July 9, 1928. http://www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf)

Weaning seems to have been a gradual process, rather than an instant cut-off age.