Salted meat and scurvy

[aariel]

In FOTL, Stefansson writes that salted meat, unlike fresh, raw meat doesn't prevent scurvy.

Raw meat could cure/prevent scurvy by any of the following: ascorbic acid, L-DHA or hydroxlysine/hydroxyproline, displacing carb calories or some combination.
I know that ascorbic acid is destroyed by heat but I don't know what salt does to it.
I don't know much about L-DHA as the discovery of our ability to recycle L-DHA back into ascorbic acid was only recently discovered.
Also not sure about the effect of heat or salt on hydroxylysine/hydroxyproline.

Anyone have an idea why salted meat wouldn't cure/prevent scurvy?

[goodsamaritan]

I think salt is the culprit there.
Salt causes the body to be wasteful of its vitamins and minerals.
Aajonus bashed salt in his last interview at oneradionetwork.com

I personally do not add salt in my diet.  I find I am more efficient with my food and drink without salt.

Plus "salted meats" is of course less nutritious than fresh raw meat.

[aariel]

I think salt is the culprit there.
Salt causes the body to be wasteful of its vitamins and minerals.
Aajonus bashed salt in his last interview at oneradionetwork.com

I personally do not add salt in my diet.  I find I am more efficient with my food and drink without salt.

Plus "salted meats" is of course less nutritious than fresh raw meat.

How does salt cause the body to be wasteful of vitamins and minerals?

Many wild animals will walk a long way to get salt so it's not like salt is a uniquely human, degenerate behavior.

What's interesting about humans, is that salt doesn't appear to be a nutrient. Or at least we've never been able to identify a salt deficiency disease.
That being said, sodium and chloride are critical nutrients and without them we suffer a rapid death. But almost all food has enough sodium and/or chloride to meet this need, thus no need for salt.

Stefannson wrote that the Eskimos he studied considered salt to be an addictive substance like tobacco. White people were addicted to salt, Eskimos were addicted to tobacco.

[goodsamaritan]

How does salt cause the body to be wasteful of vitamins and minerals?

Aajonus has his explanation for it at http://www.oneradionetwork.com/health_-_podcasts/diet_and_nutrition/aajonus_vonderplanitz_-_we_want_to_live_-_primal_diet_-living_without_disease_-_october_15th._200910151329/

My own experience so far is I have to drink more and eat more when I'm have salt with my meat.  These days I have no craving for salt.

Maybe some salt seems like a good idea with seared meats.  But not with entirely raw.

Maybe it is because in my locale, our raw meat has lots of blood in it so I'm not looking for salt.

[RawZi]

Anyone have an idea why salted meat wouldn't cure/prevent scurvy?

I've cultured grain sprout water, and I've cultured cabbage.  I didn't use salt.  The cultures grew tart tasting and are said to have lots of bioavailable C. 

Salt cuts tart taste, both in recipes and cuisines, and in Chinese Five Phase Theory, Ayurverda, Tibetan medicine etc.

Scurvy is said to be a lack of ascorbic acid, that's where the name scurvy came from, ascorbic.

Salt preserves things by making an inhospitable in environment (the foods it preserves) for pathogens, bacterias, etc.

Lactobacteria from cultured cabbage, carrots, beets or this sprouted grain water help prevent scurvy.  Maybe all bacteria help prevent scurvy.  Raw meat may grow different bacteria, but they are bacteria none-the-less.  Maybe it's just that bacteria prevent scurvy.

I somehow doubt that Captain James Cook cured his sailors' scurvy with salted kraut.  Anyone find evidence that he salted his kraut?

Salt is also said to leach minerals out of people's bones into their bloodstreams for disposal of them (calcium etc).  I've been hearing that for decades before I knew AV existed.

[needs_and_wants]

I think salt is the culprit there.
Salt causes the body to be wasteful of its vitamins and minerals.
Aajonus bashed salt in his last interview at oneradionetwork.com

Im wondering have you heard that just about table salt and not about Himalayan mountain salt or Celtic sea salt? The latter are supposed to be very beneficial re minerals and for overall health..

[RawZi]

Himalaya mountain salt makes me swell.

[goodsamaritan]

Im wondering have you heard that just about table salt and not about Himalayan mountain salt or Celtic sea salt? The latter are supposed to be very beneficial re minerals and for overall health..

I run a family so I make it a point to buy healthy sea salt.  My wife once blew too much money to buy himalayan salt.  I think salt is for the cooked food eaters to mask the flavorless cooked food.

Yes I've heard a lot of the arguments about sea salt, mountain salt, and the nutrients and that commercial salt is worse than those salts. I also did my personal experiments with salt for quite a good amount of time and found I worked better on a salt free diet.

[alphagruis]

I somehow doubt that Captain James Cook cured his sailors' scurvy with salted kraut.  Anyone find evidence that he salted his kraut?

As far as I know one way James Cook and other sailors prevented their crews from getting scurvy was embarking barrels of sauerkraut which is lacto-fermented cabbage that contains traditionally only a tiny amount of seasalt typically about 0.5%.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauerkraut

[RawZi]

Hi alphagruis!  Thank you.

Sauer kraut.  Sauer means sour.  Kraut means cabbage.  I can sour cabbage not adding any ingredients.  Wouldn't it be cool if we could find his recipe?

[Hannibal]

I do not add any salt to my meals. But I add small amounts to water, so it's better utilized. I use Himalayan mountain salt, which I find the best.

[William]

The recipe has always been cabbage and salt, anaerobic fermentation.
I tried making sauerkraut without salt, it did not taste good, and more experienced fermenters say that it is difficult to avoid the wrong kind of microbes without salt.
I use 2 teaspoons Celtic salt/litre.

True paleo sauerkraut can be made by immersing a cabbage in the ocean.

[alphagruis]

Hi RawZi

I've made sauerkraut (or choucroute in French) with organic white or red cabbage and a smaller amount of salt than usual (0.5%). Traditionally in France one adds garlic cloves, onion slices, juniper berries and various herbs such as dill. It's a nice probiotic.

http://www.kitchengardeners.org/sauerkraut.html

As mentioned by William with no salt at all fermentation is difficult to control.

Here they claim to succeed without any salt:

 http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/1985-09-01/Easy-Salt-Free-Sauerkraut.aspx

How do you sour your cabbage?

   

[alphagruis]

As to salted meat maybe it doesn't prevent scurvy as fresh raw meat does because the L-ascorbic acid is quite completely destroyed by oxidation during the long period it may be stored before being eaten (salt is a means to preserve)

In contrast L-ascorbic acid in sauerkraut has been shown to remain perfectly intact because of the anaerobic preservation conditions.

[RawZi]

Hi RawZi

I've made sauerkraut (or choucroute in French) with organic white or red cabbage and a smaller amount of salt than usual (0.5%). ...

How do you sour your cabbage?

Hi Alphagruis,

Yes, it is difficult to control.  Like you say, you are best using organically grown ingredients.  You have to be careful every step of the ways for your best chances of the right bacteria.  I've made it several ways, from Ann Wigmore.  I only made it one of the ways basically at home.  I haven't made it recently.  I did try eating some of the traditional Amish kraut this past year, and it didn't feel right with my present diet.

One way is with fifty-percent or more red and/or white cabbage, and the rest of the ingredients are other raw crispy vegetables, doesn't matter if celery, carrot, cauliflower, cabbage, whatever you can get.  The other way is adding juniper cedar berries and soaked and drained arame seaweed.  At another health center I worked at, when ingredients outside of and in addition to cabbage were used, they were onion, garlic, ginger and some napa like a no salt added kimchee.  IMO the bacteria grow better without garlic and onion.

This recipe from the creative health institute in michigan is the closest to it I've found on the net.  Victorus Kulvinskus adds dairy culture starter to his from his recipe I saw on a site of his, as do Weston Price.  I've done it all ways that are written below and in larger quantities:

1 Gallon Sauerkraut

- 2 large heads of cabbage, red, white or mixed
- 1 beet (optional)
- 3 - 4 ground juniper berries (optional)
- 2 - 3 ounces dulse, arame, or seaweed of your preference, soaked and cut up (optional)
- 1 tsp. kelp (optional)
- 1 tsp. caraway seed ground

1. Grate cabbage and beet in a standard sized grater or food processor. Save 2 or 3 outer cabbage leaves to cover sauerkraut.

2. Place grated cabbage and beet in a sturdy bowl or pail. Don’t fill for easier pounding.

3. With heavy object, baseball bat, 2x4, masher, etc., pound cabbage so the fibers break down and some juice flows out…enzymes are thus set free. Pound 10 to 15 minutes so that each shred is translucent. This can be accomplished faster by using a Champion juicer to grind the cabbage. The more you pound, the more of a smooth velvety taste the sauerkraut will acquire.

4. Mix in rest of ingredients.

5. Place in a gallon sized crock, then cover completely with outer cabbage leaves. Put a plate on top of the leaves and a weight, such as a brick, on top of the plate. Cover the crock with a towel and set it in an evenly heated (55 – 75 degrees), dark, quiet corner for 6 or 7 days.

If no crock is available substitute a wide-mouth, preferably dark, glass jar. Tamp cabbage down and place the outer leaves on top. Place a weight on top and cover the jar with a plastic bag. Put a paper bag on top of that (sauerkraut ferments better in the dark).

6. After a week has passed, open the crock or jar. Discard the outer leaves and skim the residue from the top. Refrigerated, it will keep about a month.

The variations in making sauerkraut are endless. Experiment with your taste buds. Use different combinations of vegetables alone, carrots, beets, celery, turnips and artichokes. Try different spices, thyme, dill or basil. Additions for flavor could be onions, garlic or green peppers. Remember when making sauerkraut, do not use salt. Table salt is inorganic and often remains in the system. A better source of minerals may be found from sea vegetables, such as wakame, dulse, kelp and hijiki. Unlike table salt which is 75% sodium chloride, sea vegetables are about 18 - 20% sodium chloride.

[alphagruis]

Hi Alphagruis,

Yes, it is difficult to control.  Like you say, you are best using organically grown ingredients.  You have to be careful every step of the ways for your best chances of the right bacteria.  I've made it several ways, from Ann Wigmore.  I only made it one of the ways basically at home.  I haven't made it recently.  I did try eating some of the traditional Amish kraut this past year, and it didn't feel right with my present diet.

One way is with fifty-percent or more red and/or white cabbage, and the rest of the ingredients are other raw crispy vegetables, doesn't matter if celery, carrot, cauliflower, cabbage, whatever you can get.  The other way is adding juniper cedar berries and soaked and drained arame seaweed.  At another health center I worked at, when ingredients outside of and in addition to cabbage were used, they were onion, garlic, ginger and some napa like a no salt added kimchee.  IMO the bacteria grow better without garlic and onion.

This recipe from the creative health institute in michigan is the closest to it I've found on the net.  Victorus Kulvinskus adds dairy culture starter to his from his recipe I saw on a site of his, as do Weston Price.  I've done it all ways that are written below and in larger quantities:

Thank you very much, RawZi

Very interesting. Nice to see that you know a lot from experience.

[aariel]

As far as I know one way James Cook and other sailors prevented their crews from getting scurvy was embarking barrels of sauerkraut which is lacto-fermented cabbage that contains traditionally only a tiny amount of seasalt typically about 0.5%.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauerkraut

Sauerkraut has vitamin C. I suspect the lacto-fermentation produces more vitamin C than is in the raw cabbage.

[Hannibal]

I suspect the lacto-fermentation produces more vitamin C than is in the raw cabbage.

Have you got sth that vindicates your claim? That could be very interesting

[William]

I can't give a url either, but read years ago that sauerkraut has more vitamins and enzymes than raw cabbage.

[aariel]

I can't give a url either, but read years ago that sauerkraut has more vitamins and enzymes than raw cabbage.

From the little digging I just did, it looks like bacteria can be used industrially to make ascorbic acid. So I can only assume that there are natural bacteria that do the same:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3C-4JD0GVG-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1081683406&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=78afe359930284d569fd8276c4bc0fb5

I would like to see a study that investigated this specific question.

1. Cut a cabbage in half
2. Test one half raw for AA
3. Ferment the other half, then test it for AA

[aariel]

As to salted meat maybe it doesn't prevent scurvy as fresh raw meat does because the L-ascorbic acid is quite completely destroyed by oxidation during the long period it may be stored before being eaten (salt is a means to preserve)

In contrast L-ascorbic acid in sauerkraut has been shown to remain perfectly intact because of the anaerobic preservation conditions.

Hmm. I think you may be onto something. AA is added to many foods as a sacrificial substance.

However, recent studies show that we can converted oxidized AA (L-DHA) back into AA. I guess I don't know enough about AA chemistry to know if AA oxidizes into L-DHA exclusively or predominately.

[Matt51]

Bligh had trained under Captain Cook, and had been with Cook on his last voyage when Cook was killed. Bligh knew sauerkraut would prevent scurvy, and the men who ate the sauerkraut, did not get scurvy. Those who refused, often did get scurvy. Bligh felt fresh produce prevented scurvy, and encouraged his men to eat fresh fruits and vegetables when they were in lands which had these. Some of the men felt he was doing this to make money, as he would have to  buy less salted pork and biscuit if he fed them fruits and vegetables obtained in far away islands. His interest in providing for his men's health, in part let to the mutiny. He was truly interested in the health and welfare of his men. His navigational feat in escaping certain death, is unmatched in human history.

[raw]

I run a family so I make it a point to buy healthy sea salt.  My wife once blew too much money to buy himalayan salt.  I think salt is for the cooked food eaters to mask the flavorless cooked food.

Yes I've heard a lot of the arguments about sea salt, mountain salt, and the nutrients and that commercial salt is worse than those salts. I also did my personal experiments with salt for quite a good amount of time and found I worked better on a salt free diet.

if you drink too much coconut water, your body's already loaded with salt. also some fruits and vegetables has organic salts which is much better (the best salt) than the table salt. people who eat raw meat, they don't need any extra salt. that's nonsense to have extra table salt . GS you're very wise man. keep up with you healthy salt free eating habit. thanks.

[Michael]

I think salt is the culprit there.
Salt causes the body to be wasteful of its vitamins and minerals.
Aajonus bashed salt in his last interview at oneradionetwork.com

I personally do not add salt in my diet.  I find I am more efficient with my food and drink without salt.

Besides AV's quack science in which I have no faith gs, do you have any further sources of how salt causes the body to be wasteful of vitamins and minerals?
I'm still utilising celtic sea salt or himalayan salt in my meals and water but am conscious that it may not be the best idea.  As far as I'm aware, most other vlc/zc raw paleo dieters on here such as Lex, Andrew, PaleoPhil and van are not using salt.

What is the general consensus on salt?

[djr_81]

I've done 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off salt to test out what works for me (right now).
At least for now I need a bit of supplemental salt to maintain my most optimal health I can right now. It's not much, basically a dash or two of a shaker (fine grained sea salt) over two meals so couldn't be more than 1/16 of a teaspoon, but if I don't do it I start experience hypostatic orthotension and occasional muscle cramping. My issues could be my typically low blood pressure or salt absorption problems, not sure.