Author Topic: De Vany vs. Graham  (Read 47555 times)

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Offline majormark

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2010, 07:00:49 am »
    Some time back he showed pics of someones finger growing back, if I do recall.  I didn't pay attention, but recently an eye witness told me the whole story, from their perspective.

How is that possible ?


Offline KD

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2010, 06:13:39 am »
I don't think you can deem someone healthy on the basis of their looks which can be deceiving (as commented on Bear etc..), the converse I think isn't as absurd -especially in person (but also from photographs) to bring criticism to their ideas. Although also as pointed out sometimes this can be a transition/healing period where people can not look so well, but with long term proponents and "experts" I don't think this is the issue

When people make claims about their diet using the words "ultimate" "diet meant for humans" "healing/detoxing" "most efficient use of fuel" "regenerative" it is perfectly natural for someone to expect that this will manifest physically in a positive way, not necessarily compared to various ideals of beauty but have a visible vitality.

also worth mentioning most people that eat conventional 'healthy' diets that happen to look well usually don't make these claims, and will tend to talk more about "moderation" "exercises" etc...

I can say from working in photo industry that while its very true that just about anything can be done with still photography and that virtually all print and web based media is retouched, it still remains that video can only distort via makeup and lighting. Minus the unlikely budget of Graham or Aajonus for CGI. Granted that webcams will not be the most flattering, but especially something shot outside in the sun is open game for commentary IMO.

If I'm not mistaken, another excuse (or sidenote) often responding to Grahams appearance is his claimed high level of fitness, and success (they claim) of increased fitness with aging athletes. It's fairly ironic that few of his disciples actually can create any muscle definition at all in comparison to his build, which is actually quite tiny in person. Another give away (which on top of pictures as I've said I do think can be a window into their program/success) Is that through his message boards etc.for a time he was just a completely irate intolerable son of a bitch. This seems to have improved (probably pointed out by an underling) and he tends to pull it together during interviews via my next point which is he's known to chomp down on bagles and such. Caught also by an intern at his fasting camps with Subway wrappers in his car. That said I think he does for the most part follow his low fat raw vegan regime, and the fact that being the most successful long term example of his ideas his actual results should have more of an impact on people than they do.

As for Aajonous I've never seen him personally, discounting pics I think he looked like a badass in the Ripley's episode on "high meat" which clearly tried to paint him as a creep. More recently on "The Doctors" I thought he was looking not so well (although for someone in his 60's definitely healthy enough) but perhaps due to the antiseptic and ignorant panel and audience he seemed a bit jittered in presence as well.

Offline invisible

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2010, 07:00:20 am »
As for Aajonous I've never seen him personally, discounting pics I think he looked like a badass in the Ripley's episode on "high meat" which clearly tried to paint him as a creep. More recently on "The Doctors" I thought he was looking not so well (although for someone in his 60's definitely healthy enough) but perhaps due to the antiseptic and ignorant panel and audience he seemed a bit jittered in presence as well.

How long is there between those two shows? In the former he looks really healthy, in the latter he looks very bad. Lost lots of hair and aging skin and appearance. Really looks like he is 15 years older.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2010, 07:54:30 am »
A TV news story was published on Art today: Utahn's ‘Caveman Diet' catching on worldwide, http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9618138

For those who are paranoid about Art's other pictures, this is a TV news video this time. The idea that all these videos and images are being doctored in some massive conspiracy just gets more and more ridiculous with each image and video that comes out.

Reminder: once again, we're not proving anything here--just observing and asking questions. I haven't noticed anyone claiming that these images are hard evidence that proves anything, so that remains a red herring.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 08:04:32 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline RawZi

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2010, 08:03:12 am »
How long is there between those two shows? In the former he looks really healthy, in the latter he looks very bad. Lost lots of hair and aging skin and appearance. Really looks like he is 15 years older.

    I've seen him before kind of like this.  Seems like every few years something happens to him, a poisoning or a major accident.  Then he looks like crap for a couple of months, and looks much better later on.  I think the way he looked on the doctors was from still healing from one of those accidents.  I really think it's amazing that when I've seen him after these events, a month, with another event two or three months after, that he didn't look worse than he did.

    Saying this all reminds me of one time with Ann Wigmore.  She lifted the bed and pulled her back.  She was 80something years old at the time.  So, from pulling her back out, she rested upstairs for the rest of the morning instead of coming down and teaching class.  I expected her to have problems for weeks, just because of age in years.  I was in sorry shape myself, pinching my back from next to nothing and taking over a decade to heal.  Anyway, by afternoon class she was fine, as if nothing had happened.

    IMO it just shows various raw food diets without garbage in it, with lots of bacteria and amino acids do heal people faster than they heal eating a cooked or semi-cooked diet.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2010, 08:07:27 am »
I think we're starting to veer off topic with the claims about Aajonus and Wigmore, folks. This thread was meant to promote skepticism about gurus who make extreme claims with little solid evidence, like Doug Graham on 811--in part by contrasting De Vany with him--not to promote a cult following for De Vany, Bear, Aajonus or Wigmore.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2010, 10:55:03 am »
   I've seen him before kind of like this.  Seems like every few years something happens to him, a poisoning or a major accident.  Then he looks like crap for a couple of months, and looks much better later on.  I think the way he looked on the doctors was from still healing from one of those accidents.  I really think it's amazing that when I've seen him after these events, a month, with another event two or three months after, that he didn't look worse than he did.

    Saying this all reminds me of one time with Ann Wigmore.  She lifted the bed and pulled her back.  She was 80something years old at the time.  So, from pulling her back out, she rested upstairs for the rest of the morning instead of coming down and teaching class.  I expected her to have problems for weeks, just because of age in years.  I was in sorry shape myself, pinching my back from next to nothing and taking over a decade to heal.  Anyway, by afternoon class she was fine, as if nothing had happened.

    IMO it just shows various raw food diets without garbage in it, with lots of bacteria and amino acids do heal people faster than they heal eating a cooked or semi-cooked diet.

This is one of the most precious things to me about eating raw...I recover from muscle pulls/soreness many times faster than when I was a much younger man, simply because of the change in my diet.


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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2010, 12:11:25 am »
An example of a person who has been eating a high fruit diet (not strictly 801010) for 18+ years and done a lot of fasting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_mjpuMZQIA

His biography:

http://www.tanglewoodwellnesscenter.com/staff.php


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2010, 08:30:45 pm »
Interesting. Has he been 100% raw vegan during that time?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Nation

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2010, 09:00:45 pm »
Interesting. Has he been 100% raw vegan during that time?

That's what he has said, he posts alot on one of the raw forum, he's one of the nicer guru imo but he promotes long water fast, is against animal food, thinks you should have 3 bowel movements a day or you'll accumulate toxins which could lead to colon cancer.

Offline RawZi

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2010, 01:57:00 am »
... promotes long water fast, is against animal food, thinks you should have 3 bowel movements a day or you'll accumulate toxins which could lead to colon cancer.

    3 movements, but never an enema.  Is against any and all food that has protein.  Is against LFLs(tm) bcause it has a good balance of amino acids.  Eats mostly fruit, juicy fruit only, a little lettuce or other delicate leaf.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Nation

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2010, 07:32:25 am »
RawZi, did you know Loren fled the US and relocated to Panama after one of his patient died under his care?

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/tanglewood.html


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2010, 10:52:56 am »
Wow, that's pretty serious negative evidence. It does say that one of his clients died! Thanks for sharing that important info, Nation.

It's interesting too that the court report says that Loren allowed fish in his diet. So [if the court record is accurate] he hasn't gone 18+ years as a 100% raw vegan. I've never seen him posting about the benefits of fish. Wild fish is one of the more common elements among many of the healthiest nations and peoples in the world.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 10:06:28 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2010, 11:21:45 am »
When I first got into raw (vegan) foods, this had happened not too long ago and my mentor of sorts really tried to hammer home how dangerous these guys were. I ended up eventually following more or less a fruit based approach anyway unfortunately. He would say - of which I agree - that even these guys who have claimed to do all this water fasting, live in the tropics and grow there own foods etc... i.e. done everything RIGHT according to their own rules, there is still something not right about em' how they think/talk/look etc...often coming from more or less good/average health or minor health issues.

I was somewhat impressed with Trader for a time (heres some shots of him looking physically impressive) http://www.vegetarianusa.com/rawenergy/

but I've seen more current pics of him at talks and such and hear from others that he is looking terrible and is always caught sleeping all the time. same goes for Matthew Grace, who wasn't a low fatter but claimed he got his Schwarzenegger type build eating tons of fruit and avocado, and also is not holding up over the years.

Loren might have more tact then graham, and have some ideas that seem sound in comparison to 811 like not eating a million calories a day etc...but unfortunately its likely people will after poor results on 811 go to someone like Lockman, trying more dangerous fasts and limited calorie intake.

at the same time, I guess it is impressive for statistical reasons that people are even alive decades into some of these regimes, but you never know what is really going on. I mean, he isn't exactly exuding health in this video, but I can see him being pretty convincing to someone already convinced that fruit based diets are ideal.


Offline RawZi

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2010, 02:16:30 pm »
It's interesting too that the court report says that Loren allowed fish in his diet. So he hasn't gone 18+ years as a 100% raw vegan. I've never seen him posting about the benefits of fish. Wild fish is one of the more common elements among many of the healthiest nations and peoples in the world.

    I never heard, read or knew anything about fish with him.  Is the court report correct?  Could he have said he ate fish so that the court would think he's "normal".  I don't think he's a liar.  I don't know why it said he eats fish.  Did they hold him and he was hungry and maybe fish was what he chose between that and hotdogs?  That happened one time to me about a year into veganism.  My Dad took me hundreds of miles away from everything but hot dogs and a lake.  After a week of only water, I ate a fish.  Then he took me back and I went back vegan.    

RawZi, did you know Loren fled the US and relocated to Panama after one of his patient died under his care?

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/tanglewood.html

    Yes, I know he relocated to Panama.  I know a woman died in hospital at the end of fasting at his center.  This is cause for alarm, in addition to his protein-less unhealthy diet and words.  I don't believe this makes him any worse than any other fasting supervisor.  I've encountered worse ones.  The difference with him I think is that he has a bigger heart than them.  He allows sicker people in, so there is more life and death chance involved, but she may have died anyway.  

    Does it say there that she was sneaking insulin injections in at the end of her life?  No disrespect meant toward her.  She was a human life.  No one should die young.  I really don't know what happened.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2010, 04:55:46 am »
The dude in the video looks malnourished and I for one would not take any nutrition advice from him.  I don't see how people think they're going to get all their nutrients from fruits.  It's only a little better than candy. 
Opening Pandora's boxes, one box at a time.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2010, 09:31:41 am »


at the same time, I guess it is impressive for statistical reasons that people are even alive decades into some of these regimes, but you never know what is really going on.


Raw vegan gurus are neither raw nor vegan.  If they say they are, they are lying.  Period.  Pretty much nobody can eat that way for more than a few years at a time. 


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #92 on: February 19, 2010, 10:04:23 am »
   I never heard, read or knew anything about fish with him.  Is the court report correct?
Why not read the Loren Lockman court report and decide for yourself?

Final decision and order In the matter of Loren Eric Lockman, Respondent, Before the Maryland State Board of Physicians
http://www.mbp.state.md.us/forms/Lockman08.317.pdf


I found some more links re: Lockman. Again, I'll leave it to you to decide for yourself what to believe:

My Tanglewood experience
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showpost.php?s=8f940ef0dd4e64206e33fafc7f194e9b&p=285940&postcount=13

Tanglewood/may not be so good
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showpost.php?s=6a8e2d04801f4b79a8f798b0450afcb7&p=286162&postcount=7

Quote
 Could he have said he ate fish so that the court would think he's "normal".  I don't think he's a liar.
Well, there's a claim in this thread that he has been a 100% raw vegan for 18+ years and there's a court report that says he claimed to eat fish. They can't both be right.

Quote
   Yes, I know he relocated to Panama.  I know a woman died in hospital at the end of fasting at his center.  This is cause for alarm, in addition to his protein-less unhealthy diet and words.  I don't believe this makes him any worse than any other fasting supervisor.
Wow! So all the others are that bad or worse?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2010, 12:46:43 pm »


My Tanglewood experience
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showpost.php?s=8f940ef0dd4e64206e33fafc7f194e9b&p=285940&postcount=13


Oh man this was quite a piece of entertainment, something about this guys writing style just cracks me up." Loren charges 10 cent for the computer, 50cent to get your clothes washed. "Loren has a small gift shop, he charges double the price of a shop just down the street." I've added my own Dave Chapel voice

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #94 on: February 20, 2010, 11:08:52 pm »
I used to hear good things about Tanglewood.  It sounds like Loren has gone over-the-top with the fasting.

Offline miles

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2010, 04:23:50 am »
These people are crazy...
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Offline RawZi

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2010, 04:33:51 am »
Well, there's a claim in this thread that he has been a 100% raw vegan for 18+ years and there's a court report that says he claimed to eat fish. They can't both be right.
Wow! So all the others are that bad or worse?

    Maybe he started with fish.  I haven't had anything to do with him in a couple of years, besides posting at GI2MR that he is ok, and because I eat raw meat, vegans/vegetarians there decided to tear him apart.

    Yes, there are worse fasting supervisors.  
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2010, 05:11:12 am »
   Maybe he started with fish.
Perhaps, but remember that the claim was that he was 100% raw vegan for 18+ years, not "he included fish at first and then eventually became 100% raw vegan." As has been mentioned by others, there seems to be a disturbing tendency among raw vegan gurus to lie or exaggerate about what they eat, or conveniently leave out mention of fish, eggs, raw dairy, etc. until someone discovers it.

Quote
   Yes, there are worse fasting supervisors.  
Amazing! Why do you think people pay them for their advice and insane programs?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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