Author Topic: Hunting  (Read 55128 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #125 on: January 17, 2010, 12:11:13 pm »
Thanks for offering this PaleoPhil.  This is exactly what I was getting at with my earlier comment.  Not in the mood to write a long post now though, as I'm recuperating from my first attempt at eating raw chicken (salmonella). Figured the bird would be fine, pasture raised on herbs and bugs, no crowding, butchered on-site by the farmer and not in an industrial slaughterhouse.  I must say a bout with salmonella raises a lot of questions in me regarding this raw omnivory thing, not sure anymore if I'm game to stick with it.
Hmm, that's unfortunate. I've eaten some raw beef and eggs for going on 3 or 4 years now, and have been nearly all-raw for about 6 months. I only had one mild case of diarrhea that lasted half a day. I rarely eat chicken, though, so I don't have much input there. After I developed a taste for pasture-fed venison, bison, beef and raw tallow, chicken didn't appeal to me much any more. I used to eat chicken more than any other meat but now it tastes too bland and too lean. The brown meat is OK, but not as good as red meat. My own decision was to not let a single incident sour me, especially since every time I eat raw meat and fat I get a feeling of well being and most of my symptoms continue to improve. Salmonella wouldn't scare me, but botulism would (though that would more likely have to do with poor storage on my part, rather than raw meat in and of itself).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #126 on: January 17, 2010, 01:37:26 pm »
Thanks for offering this PaleoPhil.  This is exactly what I was getting at with my earlier comment.  Not in the mood to write a long post now though, as I'm recuperating from my first attempt at eating raw chicken (salmonella). Figured the bird would be fine, pasture raised on herbs and bugs, no crowding, butchered on-site by the farmer and not in an industrial slaughterhouse.  I must say a bout with salmonella raises a lot of questions in me regarding this raw omnivory thing, not sure anymore if I'm game to stick with it.

I once ate bad raw chicken liver.  In 30 minutes I vomitted it out.  My tummy knows. 

I ate red tide / polluted oysters but I was ready with tree iodine, herbal colon cleanser.  by 9pm I felt totally awful.  I pooped and puked my way out.  What a ride.

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Offline van

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #127 on: January 17, 2010, 01:47:42 pm »
Eric,  only had chicken once, not really a fan either.  You're in the east coast, so at this time of the year there really isn't much green and bugs for chickens, so I am not sure if I am reading an earlier post or not. If not, you can be sure their calories are from grains.   Chickens routinely have samonela in and around them, their poop, water, and feed all gets contaminated.  I had a goat die because a chicken got in the goat yard and samonela got into the goats digestion and spread.  They can be sensitive.  Point is, I wouldn't compare a chickens health to that of wild meat or domesticated grass fed beef.  Not ever had samonela I can't emphathise, but hope this doesn't derail your efforts at other raw foods.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #128 on: January 17, 2010, 03:12:14 pm »
    I eat raw chicken.  Never got sick from it.  It feels soothing too.  I tried chicken ceviche and my body felt like the chicken was almost heat cooked, even though it wasn't.  I have had reactions to heat cooked chicken.  I had lots of health problems (acne, backaches, sore throats the list never ended) before I gave up cooked chicken.  Once I was cooked vegetarian, if cooked chicken juice was put in my food, I got sick (swollen and sore).  I tried eating cooked chicken one meal since I've started eating meat.  I got sick (a cold massive).  I tried cooking chicken one time.  The smell in my opinion was horrible.  The fats go rancid from cooking etc.  Cooked chicken is not for me.  I think I would prefer hunted meat over raw chicken, but that's not in the cards, so I'll stick with raw chicken.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #129 on: January 17, 2010, 09:01:46 pm »
I once ate bad raw chicken liver.  In 30 minutes I vomitted it out.  My tummy knows. 
...
Interesting coincidence. The only different thing I did when I had my one diarrhea episode was eat chicken liver the night before. I started feeling mildly ill about 4 am the next morning.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline jessica

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #130 on: January 17, 2010, 09:21:15 pm »
the chicken i have had makes me itchy, although no digestive disruption, so i have only tried a few times and given up.  i am sure its grain fed, if i can find a grass fed source this spring i will report back.......really wanting rabbits right now though!!

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #131 on: January 17, 2010, 10:34:18 pm »
Its sort of similar to how most of us found raw paleo. Everything else mainstream did not work so we gradually started looking for answers elsewhere along the fringe and came up with a solution that made perfect brilliant sense and worked wonders for us. Yet almost nobody knows that raw paleo exists and almost no main stream doctors, nutritionists think we are all that sane.

A similar sort of phenomenon I think happens when we look at the creation of our universe. There is no actual evidence that black holes, event horizons or dark matter exists. String theory is untestable. The large Hadron collider isn't working as well we thought. There is no complete unified theory of physics. But physics is substantially different than diet in that general relativity is testable and makes remarkable predictions and we have yet to have a counter-example proving it wrong. But when there is so much controversy we look elsewhere and find others with different, possibly extreme views that claim to explain the universe much better than the current theories.  

Maybe an important difference between physics and science of nutrition is also that there is less cultural, political and religious bias in physics. Our culture is a tremendous barrier that prevents basically nutrition scientists from systematically questioning an ubiquitous practice such as cooking our food, for instance. Scientists are people who ate cooked food for 2 or 3 decades when beginning their creative work. They are addicted to it as everybody else and so are those people (group of scientists and politicians) who are in charge of making the decision to fund or not a given research. Even if (highly unlikely event) a single scientist (as Dr. Seignalet here in France) overcomes his personnal relunctance or addiction and asks for funding this kind of research his application is almost certainly rejected.

Were it not for this formidable barrier, the example of the strongly adverse effects of cooking and the need to abandon it would have been clearly demonstrated in the 1960's or even earlier. There is little doubt about this because technically it is a fairly simple question to settle. So a minority of poeple such as we had to discover this along the fringe and by experimenting on themselves and ackowledge that mainstream science has failed. With the entailing natural tendency for them to reject all mainstream science.

Physics is in principle a more objective science since even black holes, whether they exist or not has little influence on our everyday activities and life. The question of universe's origin has however obviously a strong philosophical and religious resonance and so it is also highly disputed and controversial.

 It is in contrast highly amusing to note that condensed matter physics and quantum mechanics, the theories behind the invention of the transistor, computers, lasers, medical imaging and the GPS are much much less disputed. ;)

 Though quantum mechanics is in principle at least as disturbing and controversial as general relativity.

The GPS uses also general relativity corrections. General relativity has undergone a few successful tests but it remains yet just a speculative theory of gravity with at least a very annoying fundamental problem. In constrast, the so-called special theory of relativity (equivalence of mass and energy, constancy of the speed of light etc...)  is rather a law verified routinely in all laboratories all over the world in many ways.

The search for a unified theory of everything such as sting theory is most likely vain. This is at least the opinion of an increasing number of physicists. But this is by no means the end of physics, it just means that reductionism has reached its limits or that we definitely cannot hope to infer seriously most remarkable higher levels properties from elementary constituants. This view is contended for instance by Nobel Price of Physics winners Robert B. Laughlin or P.W. Anderson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Different_Universe:_Reinventing_Physics_from_the_Bottom_Down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Warren_Anderson  
      

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #132 on: January 17, 2010, 11:00:29 pm »
Sorry for the tangent from the hunting topic, but the philosophy of science is one of my interests and I'm enjoying the juicy bits this discussion is generating.

Its sort of similar to how most of us found raw paleo. Everything else mainstream did not work so we gradually started looking for answers elsewhere along the fringe and came up with a solution that made perfect brilliant sense and worked wonders for us. Yet almost nobody knows that raw paleo exists and almost no main stream doctors, nutritionists think we are all that sane.
Thanks for the explanation, that has the ring of truth. It's still fairly baffling to me, because I came to raw Paleo dieting via Boyd Eaton's theoretical model of Darwinian evolutionary dietary adaptation, which made instant sense to me in a "Eureka!" moment because of my past intensive study of biological evolution. To me the theory of evolution supports RPD and the mainstream scientists are not sufficiently taking evolution into account, rather than RPD leading me to abandon Darwinian evolution for unusual alternative views. Instead of persuading me to throw out all scientific models, RPD for me reinforces the generally-accepted model of biological evolution. So for me the problem is not so much with science as it is with the scientists.

I think we should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Quote
A similar sort of phenomenon I think happens when we look at the creation of our universe. There is no actual evidence that black holes, event horizons or dark matter exists. String theory is untestable. The large Hadron collider isn't working as well we thought. There is no complete unified theory of physics.
Humans tend to want simple, absolute solutions that answer questions for all time, which may be why dogmatic religions have great appeal. Science is not about final solutions and perfect answers--it never gets things completely right. It's more a series of conjectures and refutations, as Popper pointed out (although even that is viewed by many as oversimplified and there is still not agreement on what the scientific method is). The hope is that science will be a gradual improvement in imperfect knowledge, not a search for final truths. When scientists get some big things hugely wrong, such as diet, I see that as an opportunity for improvement in scientific rigor and an indication that we should look with a more skeptical eye at currently accepted models in other scientific fields, rather than as an opportunity to throw out all current scientific models and adopt a host of New-Agey-type views without thorough investigation. That doesn't mean I don't think the alternative views shouldn't be investigated and can't possibly be true, I just don't think we should make the same mistake of embracing these views with an uncritical eye, for this is part of what got many of us into trouble with diet in the first place--accepting the standard American diet or the standard views on "healthy" diet or the extreme views on raw veganism, etc. with little skeptical questioning of their assumptions. We shouldn't correct lack of critical inquiry of standard dogma in one area with uncritical acceptance of fringe views in other areas.

Quote
But physics is substantially different than diet in that general relativity is testable and makes remarkable predictions
This is what is remarkable about the Paleolithic model of nutrition with its mechanism of evolutionary biological adaptation. It's the first dietary model founded on a basic principle of biology rather than ad-hoc collection of hit-or-miss guesses and the first dietary model that enables us to make testable predictions.

Quote
But when there is so much controversy we look elsewhere and find others with different, possibly extreme views that claim to explain the universe much better than the current theories.
I would hope that the gross errors in the field of nutrition would make us more skeptical of these extreme views and all views in general, rather than less skeptical. In sum, lack of skepticism, critical thinking and scientific rigor should encourage us to be more skeptical, use more critical thinking, and apply science more rigorously, rather than the opposite.

...
 Though quantum mechanics is in principle at least as disturbing and controversial as general relativity.
Indeed, Feynman even said, "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics," and it was too disturbing for Einstein to ever fully accept it.

Quote
The search for a unified theory of everything such as sting theory is most likely vain. This is at least the opinion of an increasing number of physicists. But this is by no means the end of physics, it just means that reductionism has reached its limits or that we definitely cannot hope to infer seriously most remarkable higher levels properties from elementary constituants. This view is contended for instance by Nobel Price of Physics winners Robert B. Laughlin or P.W. Anderson.
I tend to agree. I'm fairly ignorant in these matters, but seeking a single unified theory smacks a little bit too much to me of seeking a final, perfectly complete answer, which is more the realm of dogmatic religion (but not all religion) than skeptical science. If they do hit upon a grand unified theory, rather than answer every significant question in the field completely, I think that it will reveal a host of new questions, just as every scientific model before it has.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2010, 06:13:01 am »

The GPS uses also general relativity corrections.
  
      

How about: GPS uses fudge factors in order to fit a failed hypothesis to a false shape of the planet?
But there is no (grant) money in that, so it will not be considered.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2010, 08:59:55 am »
I don't think that's it at all with the group of people on here.

Are you suggesting the group of people on this board weren't brought up in the neolithic age and with computers?

I don't want to be offensive, but all of the talk and concern about animals and their deaths during hunting seems to me to be only possible coming out of the mouth or typing fingers of someone who has never been hungry in the wild their whole life. I am also one of those people, and can only imagine how ridiculous these notions would seem to someone who spent any amount of time surviving in the wild, or from one of those tribes that people on here seem so eager to research and quote and learn about.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2010, 10:29:25 am »
How about: GPS uses fudge factors in order to fit a failed hypothesis to a false shape of the planet?
But there is no (grant) money in that, so it will not be considered.

William, why are your emotions so caught up in all of this?

William

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2010, 10:37:08 am »
William, why are your emotions so caught up in all of this?

Scientific propositions are criticized, and alternate ideas, if any, are proposed.
This is the scientific method, as I understand it. alphagruis could give a better definition.

What emotions?

alphagruis

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2010, 06:20:27 pm »
How about: GPS uses fudge factors in order to fit a failed hypothesis to a false shape of the planet?
But there is no (grant) money in that, so it will not be considered.

The people who developped the GPS just want it to work with highest possible accuracy. To this end the correction they have to apply to the time read on clocks in orbit and on earth happens to be in line with predictions of Einstein's theory of gravity or general relativity. It works but wrong theories may give a fairly good ansver in a few specific instances.

General relativity (as string theory) is certainly a nice mathematical construction that unfortunately fascinates too many scientists. However the only thing that counts is that it remains a largely untested and untestable speculation with "an horrible skeleton in the closet namely the cosmological constant" as Laughlin puts it.

I take this with much less emotion than you , William, but I agree that this situation has been and still is highly detrimental to the developement of alternative views and creativity.

Yet I won't dwell on this since it is completely out of topic in this thread devoted to hunting.

 

   

William

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2010, 09:58:19 pm »
Not completely off topic, as it concerns the perception that we can be and are deceived by accepted notions, such as that general relativity works, as does chasing a deer.
We are deceived because both are  true, but not all true - general relativity needs fudge factors, so does chasing.

People addicted to running present the image of the lone hunter - I object!

Man is a pack hunter, and the language  deceives us in English because we don't hunt, we know where the animal will be. In America, the animal is baited, so we just sit in wait. In Europe, I read that the animal is driven by beaters towards the guns/spears.

Wolves and coyotes use neither method, the pack sends one out to frighten the prey towards the lurkers.

As for the concerns about morality, an empty stomach has no morals.

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2010, 10:34:53 pm »
First off, thanks for posting such detailed repsonses. Its great and very lucky that this board has an actual physicist who furthermore actually wants to participate and discuss alternative theories. What I have to say is off the top of my head with little to back it up so likely filled with erroneous thoughts but its what I think for now.

Maybe an important difference between physics and science of nutrition is also that there is less cultural, political and religious bias in physics. Our culture is a tremendous barrier that prevents basically nutrition scientists from systematically questioning an ubiquitous practice such as cooking our food, for instance. Scientists are people who ate cooked food for 2 or 3 decades when beginning their creative work. They are addicted to it as everybody else and so are those people (group of scientists and politicians) who are in charge of making the decision to fund or not a given research. Even if (highly unlikely event) a single scientist (as Dr. Seignalet here in France) overcomes his personnal relunctance or addiction and asks for funding this kind of research his application is almost certainly rejected.

I'm not so sure there is less cultural bias in physics than in nutrition. Well, perhaps there is just about zero outside influence of human culture on mainstream physics but mainstream physics is a culture in of itself. I wonder if its even possible to publish anything critiquing general relativity. There is little(no?) money for experimenters who have completely different alternative theories. I keep pondering how Tesla, a man who had his own theory of the universe until the day he died (and presumably many other scientists at the time of Einstein) would fare in today's world.

Quote
Were it not for this formidable barrier, the example of the strongly adverse effects of cooking and the need to abandon it would have been clearly demonstrated in the 1960's or even earlier. There is little doubt about this because technically it is a fairly simple question to settle. So a minority of poeple such as we had to discover this along the fringe and by experimenting on themselves and ackowledge that mainstream science has failed. With the entailing natural tendency for them to reject all mainstream science.

Physics is in principle a more objective science since even black holes, whether they exist or not has little influence on our everyday activities and life. The question of universe's origin has however obviously a strong philosophical and religious resonance and so it is also highly disputed and controversial.

You are absolutely correct that I tend to naturally want to reject all of mainstream science. I am very emotionally attached to my diet though I try to speak of it objectively. I grew up trusting everything I read and everything any adult or doctor ever said to me. I never questioned anything. After suffering from many minor ailments and thankfully stumbling upon Good Calories, Bad Calories I changed my diet and found much relief. I was subsequently dumbfounded about the vast amount of misinterpretation of evidence there was on nutrition.

But I don't think nutrition is an outlier in the mess that science is. In almost every facet of life I see the enormous spread of misinformation. Its like a disease that has plagued scientific reasoning. In baseball for instance, statisticians have basically solved the game mathematically and can easily give you the best strategy. Yet we have managers that are making horrible decisions weekly that cost their team wins. Same with all other sports. The math is so simple and the decisoin making so obvious yet nearly no one employs these statisticians that would instantly make the francise better. The same goes with economics or people that think they know what they are doing trading in the market. I feel life is run so entirely suboptimally.I don't see why physics would be any different.

There is a large part of me that really WANTS mainstream phyiscs to be wrong. I am angry at hbeing decieved but at the same time take pride that I am loooking for truth or at least what I think is the truth. it makes me feel more worthwhile, unique. I also have this internal gut feeling that some time in my lifetime the truth will come out  and it won't be what it is now.

Quote

 It is in contrast highly amusing to note that condensed matter physics and quantum mechanics, the theories behind the invention of the transistor, computers, lasers, medical imaging and the GPS are much much less disputed. ;)

 Though quantum mechanics is in principle at least as disturbing and controversial as general relativity.

The GPS uses also general relativity corrections. General relativity has undergone a few successful tests but it remains yet just a speculative theory of gravity with at least a very annoying fundamental problem. In constrast, the so-called special theory of relativity (equivalence of mass and energy, constancy of the speed of light etc...)  is rather a law verified routinely in all laboratories all over the world in many ways.
I dont get the GPS corrections. Mean satellite distance is about 10k miles and so the speed of light takes about 1/10 of a second to go to the satellite and then back again. Do they really correct for this small increment of time? Has it really been proven?

But aren't there better examples that show GR to be correct such as the Mercury's hyperion shift or the orbits of jupiters moons? But these were shown in Tesla's time so he surely must have had an alternative explanation for all this evidence.

Quote
The search for a unified theory of everything such as sting theory is most likely vain. This is at least the opinion of an increasing number of physicists. But this is by no means the end of physics, it just means that reductionism has reached its limits or that we definitely cannot hope to infer seriously most remarkable higher levels properties from elementary constituants. This view is contended for instance by Nobel Price of Physics winners Robert B. Laughlin or P.W. Anderson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Different_Universe:_Reinventing_Physics_from_the_Bottom_Down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Warren_Anderson  
      

Have you seen any of the electric universe's youtube videos that GS has posted? For someone untrained like me they can say almost anything to convince me that they are right. There predictions on comets and further explanation for instance was pretty evident to me that they indeed have something worth looking into. The video is about 35 minutes is well done and might be worth taking a look at.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 10:41:12 pm by Paleo Donk »

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2010, 10:51:54 pm »
Quote
Humans tend to want simple, absolute solutions that answer questions for all time, which may be why dogmatic religions have great appeal. Science is not about final solutions and perfect answers--it never gets things completely right. It's more a series of conjectures and refutations, as Popper pointed out (although even that is viewed by many as oversimplified and there is still not agreement on what the scientific method is). The hope is that science will be a gradual improvement in imperfect knowledge, not a search for final truths.

Though I agree that science can technically never get anything completely right we can get pretty close. We know almost exactly what the correct diet is for lions but are very far away for Humans. I think the exactness of Physics and the ability to perform good experiments should eventually lead us to a simple theory of the universe. If mathematics is the only field where a proof can be had and say economics is a field where almost no experiments can be duplicated then physics must be very close to math in terms of being able to come up with absolute theories. I suppose we almost have and it doesn't seem like it should be that difficult but yet there is still so much controversy. The physical world seems so easily testable. Newtons simple equations of motions work extremely well.

alphagruis

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #141 on: January 19, 2010, 02:25:48 am »
I'm not so sure there is less cultural bias in physics than in nutrition. Well, perhaps there is just about zero outside influence of human culture on mainstream physics but mainstream physics is a culture in of itself. I wonder if its even possible to publish anything critiquing general relativity. There is little(no?) money for experimenters who have completely different alternative theories. I keep pondering how Tesla, a man who had his own theory of the universe until the day he died (and presumably many other scientists at the time of Einstein) would fare in today's world.

Physics is undoubtedly a culture in of itself as all of human creative work, I guess. There is too little work on alternative theories of gravitation because of the string theorist's hegemony. This present situation and "mess", as you put it, is very well described and analysed in a book by Lee Smolin, a physicist working on alternative theories, entitled "The trouble with Physics"

http://www.thetroublewithphysics.com/


I dont get the GPS corrections. Mean satellite distance is about 10k miles and so the speed of light takes about 1/10 of a second to go to the satellite and then back again. Do they really correct for this small increment of time? Has it really been proven?

But aren't there better examples that show GR to be correct such as the Mercury's hyperion shift or the orbits of jupiters moons? But these were shown in Tesla's time so he surely must have had an alternative explanation for all this evidence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Basic_concept_of_GPS

A GPS receiver calculates its position by precisely timing the signals sent by the GPS satellites high above the Earth. Each satellite continually transmits messages which include
the time the message was sent
precise orbital information (the ephemeris)
the general system health and rough orbits of all GPS satellites (the almanac).
The receiver utilizes the messages it receives to determine the transit time of each message and computes the distances to each satellite. These distances along with the satellites' locations are used with the possible aid of trilateration to compute the position of the receiver...

As you can see the calculation in based on the signal transit time between satellite and receiver. To this end the time of arrival measured with a clock in receiver is compared to the time of departure from satellite measured with a clock in satellite and encoded in the emitted signal itself. To get meaningful results this supposes obviously that the two clocks are first perfectly synchronized (or their offset precisely known) and then run at exactly the same pace. Experiment shows that this is not the case and the clock's actual pace or reading depends mainly on local gravity (which is a bit lower in satellite than at usual receiver's location on ground or in airplanes) and relative speed. Typically the clock in satellite ticks more rapidly than the same clock on ground by about 38 microseconds/day. Since radio signals travel about 12 km during this time it must be taken into account.        


Have you seen any of the electric universe's youtube videos that GS has posted? For someone untrained like me they can say almost anything to convince me that they are right. There predictions on comets and further explanation for instance was pretty evident to me that they indeed have something worth looking into. The video is about 35 minutes is well done and might be worth taking a look at.

I've not yet seen them seriously. I'll try do it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 02:34:56 am by alphagruis »

Offline Sully

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2010, 03:45:36 am »
Got a trout at the park. Well sort of. Someone caught one, it was hooked bad, but he wasn't keeping it and threw it near shore. He knew that was what I was after and offered it to me.

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