Author Topic: organic raw eggs  (Read 15858 times)

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Offline GCB

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2010, 06:30:59 am »
I read with great interest this discussion about the toxic molecules possibly conveyed by the eggs of hens fed with food unsuited to their metabolism. Since my name has been brought forward, I’d like to point out some distortions of my ideas. It seems to me that the three remarks of Alphagruis, although partly quite relevant, involve the following reasoning errors.

1: The capacity of birds to assimilate seeds existing in nature doesn’t mean that a capacity is granted to assimilate without troubles all the substances found in seeds appeared more recently, for example in seeds genetically modified or victims of mutations. The quantity or the quality of the gluten contained in wheat may well exceed the limits of adaptability of our hens. One cannot be satisfied with a probability (“it is much more likely that…”) to infer that a food is safe.

2: The ability of hens to degrade the amounts of new chemical species produced by agriculture or thermal denaturation  cannot be deduced from a necessary capability of the environment to degrade the molecules damaged under natural conditions. Concerning the environment: it is entirely possible that the amounts of abnormal molecules resulting from human artifices exceeds the degradation capacity of the natural environment. It is both an issue of quantity and quality: there can be too many manmade molecules while at the same time they resemble the natural damaged molecules; there can be new ones which do not resemble natural molecules. Concerning poultry: it’s not because bacteria or other organisms are able to degrade some molecules that the body of galliformes would definitely be able to degrade them without damage and without any diffusion in the albumin or vitellus of the egg.

3: The fact that the layers are young animals could on the contrary have for consequences that they accumulate less toxic molecules in their body and eliminates them in larger amounts in their eggs. The assumption that organic eggs do not contain more toxic residues than conventional fruit and vegetables contain pesticides is far from being ascertained, and even if it were the case the reference would not be very engaging for someone who wants to avoid poisons in his/her food. If not, why bother to eat organic fruit and vegetables…?

Concerning Mr Pasteur calf, the fact to remain young during 4 weeks with a pasteurized diet (therefore less with a cooked diet) doesn’t restore my confidence in my life expectancy with a diet of doubtful eggs… ;)

GC Burger

« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 06:43:17 am by GCB »

Offline GCB

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2010, 10:07:35 pm »
I forgot to ask: Iguana, where would I have said or written that “eating eggs off poultry fed cooked stuff is much like eating cooked food"?

Offline Iguana

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2010, 10:19:38 pm »
Well, it’s me who wrote that : it’s not from you ! I exaggerated somewhat to emphasize my point.

By the way, welcome here !
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

alphagruis

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2010, 10:22:55 pm »
Burger,

I leave to those rare forumers ever interesting in such details to find out who distorts the ideas or statements of whom and consequently ridiculously pontificates about supposed "reasoning errors" of it's interlocutor.

Offline GCB

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2010, 11:30:49 pm »
Since you call "pontifications" the simple hygiene of the reasoning, I will pontificate further for those “rare forumers” which the subject interests more than the controversy. On the other hand, I would be delighted if my interlocutors specify my possible errors of reasoning rather than bask in sterile dialectic.

Here’s a summary of my point of view (see also on my website “Instinctothérapie” the page “The theory in short”, not yet translated in english): current knowledge supports the assertion that the phenomenon is possible, i.e. some “non original” molecules that the hen’s assimilation system would be unable to degrade correctly are likely to accumulate in the body of the bird or to pass in her eggs. Such reasoning is however relevant from the qualitative point of view only: it doesn’t allow to predict the extent of the phenomenon.

It could be that the molecules of a given type, escaping normal degradation, accumulate partly in the hen’s body, others in her fat and that others are still eliminated by the intestine wall or others emunctories. The bulk will most probably be distributed between these various routes. But nothing excludes that some harmful substances pass in the eggs. The mucous membranes can certainly recognize the molecules which they are supposed to control, but they base on some characteristics of the molecules and can, like any system of information reading, be induced in error.

What then can we theoretically expect to find in eggs: either non-degradable residues deriving directly from the daily feed, or of matters accumulated in the hen’s body and rejected occasionally into the circulatory system during a “detoxination” reaction. One can fear that the concentration of undesirable matters is greater in the second case.

How to know what really happen? To search for these molecules by analysis, we would have to identify them, i.e. predict at least some of their chemical characteristics. Research knocks against the fact that they result from unforeseeable chemical reactions at the time of random molecular shocks produced by the temperature rise. It is thus definitely impossible to envisage their structure as there will always be some which could be different from those we would have identified their characteristics.

Moreover, the world of science was hardly concerned with the nutritional problem under the angle of the inadequacy of traditional food to the genetic data of the metabolism. There is hence a large delay in research. It is very recently only that the presence of AGE and ALE in processed food began to be taken into account. Even more recently still, it’s been shown that these molecules of culinary origin can find their way in the circulatory system, accumulate in living tissues and be excreted latter by various emunctories. The egg white and yolk being made by mucous membranes, we can predict without much risk of being mistaken that the latter can give way to abnormal molecules present in the serum.

The empirical observation remains. What are the effects that non-degradable molecules contained in eggs might have on the consumer body? Will it be the same effects as direct ingestion of the kind of food ingested by the hen? In fact, the problem is extremely complex, because some of the “nonoriginal” molecules contained in poultry feed can be degraded partially, have at first some specific toxicity (for example a neurotoxicity) which won’t be found in the partially degraded form, while at the same time this degraded form may have other harmful effects (to be carcinogenic), etc.

The neurotoxicity can be observed very directly, at least in some cases, whereas the carcinogenicity is expressed generally after several years only. Systematic epidemiological studies, which were never undertaken due to a lack of awareness of the problem, are needed to put some light in this area. The eggs issue hardly interested the toxicologists, considering its minor impact in the traditional food context where many other factors are by far more urgent.

Facing this imbroglio, the instinctotherapy provides us an experimentation ground unique in its kind: the removal of all factors of toxicity related to the culinary denaturizing or to the use of “new” food such as grain and milk, enables us to highlight  in a much clearer way the effects of a toxic food. Bodies nourished on the natural mode for a sufficient time, if possible ever since birth, make it possible to see things much more clearly – since there’s no interferences with abnormal molecules accumulated before and rejected into the circulatory system. Experiments on animals raised with raw food for several generations (or on wild animals) will immediately highlight a neurotoxicity.

I for example raised cats under conditions as close as possible to nature, feeding on pine voles or other small rodents present in natural areas (forest, natural meadow, no agriculture nor manure, etc). I chose several of criteria of behavior, in particular: yawn, stretching, vibrations of the tail, back arching, manner of rubbing our legs or of thrusting their claws in our trousers, level of agitation during the paradoxical sleep, crying eyes (mucus on the corner of the eye), hair quality, level of aggressiveness at the approach of a dog, vomiting, odor and consistency of droppings, urines odor, sexual behavior (growls during coupling due to the fact that the male attacks the female without her being sufficiently in rut).

I then gave to my cats by short alternate periods, hen eggs either nourished on the natural mode or alternatively receiving wheat or food denatured by heat. The results convinced me that the egg is carrying certain toxic molecules resulting from the poultry feed. I also compared the effects of the same eggs on human beings, particularly on the level of the “fixing” (excitation of the nervous system) and noted a clear parallelism. The eggs which disturbed the behavior of my cats had similar effects on humans: agitated sleep, disordered dreams, irritability, depression, sexual overexcitation, pestilential gases, eczema, etc.

A more direct experiment, based on organoleptic localization, consisted in giving fresh fish left overs in excessive amounts to hens. We could then regularly observe that the eggs gets a fish flavour, testifying the passage of some aromatic molecules through the different filters and barriers. One can easily check that the hens manage “to assume” a definite proportion of fish in their food, beyond which parasitic odors appear in their eggs. Therefore some molecules can be degraded below a particular concentration threshold and not beyond a line where the possibilities of the species and/or of the body are overwhelmed. Considering it rests on very general basis, the same model of reasoning applies very likely to other molecules like AGEs resulting from culinary denaturations or cereal’s hot drying.

It can be inferred that hens nourished in a way closer to their metabolic capacities, for example with organic food and searching for worms in free range, should lay eggs containing definitely less poisons than industrial eggs. The poisons concentration in egg is certainly not proportional to the introduced quantities, but increases quickly as soon as the threshold of adaptability of the bird is exceeded. But if we want to be sure of what we do and knowing that minor amounts of antigenic molecules can have important effects on the immune system, warden of our health (for example allergies, maintenance of tolerances), we of course have the greatest advantage  in avoiding unknown factors which consequences in terms of health are unidentified, and therefore to eat exclusively eggs form sources as perfect as possible.


Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2010, 11:37:50 pm »
GCB,

Love your theory.  Thank you very much.

This is why our primary source of eggs are fertilized duck eggs from the remote province of Palawan, the last frontier in the Philippines.  It is raised by a duck herder who lets the ducks forage for their food daily.  My wife visited the lady and saw how she did her business daily.

P.S.  Are you Guy-Claude Burger??? Wow!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 12:48:15 am by goodsamaritan »
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alphagruis

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2010, 01:08:56 am »
I will pontificate further for those “rare forumers”

Please do it, Burger

I can't wait to read your future pontifications  :D

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2010, 01:13:10 am »
Burger's scenario seems pretty doomsdayish. How long would we have to wait before commercial hens can no longer produce healthy offspring because of the accumulated toxins? Or are commercial hens hatched from good sources, so the cycle of accumulated toxins does not continue? But if todays commercial eggs are produced from many generations of chickens fed a horrible diet then it seems the tipping point is far off.

Also, wouldn't the eggs be the last place a hen would want to excrete its toxins into? Perhaps the taste difference that is reported does not correspond to toxins.

I think humans are well underway to not being able to reproduce children and the tipping point where accumulated toxins reach a point of no return (as when mr. pastuer calf was 4 weeks old) is soon approaching. I see this all day here in America. Obese diabetic teens have essentially no chance at reproducing. Maybe we'll have a huge population drop. Well, asians must get fat first, but it is coming.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2010, 01:50:03 am »
One of the most shocking things I saw in the US was the sight of hideously obese teenaged women looking like what some women in Europe only look like around 40ish. Absolutely terrible. No wonder there are so many American RPDers, as a reaction to this sort of thing.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

alphagruis

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2010, 02:56:53 am »
I think humans are well underway to not being able to reproduce children and the tipping point where accumulated toxins reach a point of no return (as when mr. pastuer calf was 4 weeks old) is soon approaching. I see this all day here in America. Obese diabetic teens have essentially no chance at reproducing. Maybe we'll have a huge population drop. Well, asians must get fat first, but it is coming.

Yes, just look at the steadily growing number of humans in developed countries who have to resort to medical crutches such as in vitro fertilizations to reproduce, because impaired fertility of either man or woman or both. In the sense of getting definitely sick as Mr Pasteur calf at 4 weaks age people in developed countries get sick at ever decreasing age as ever more inappropriate and toxic nutrition and ways of life are adopted generation after generation. A substantial part of them soon won't even reach the age of reproduction healthy enough to be capable to achieve this characteristic feature of life. Just the beginning of the end for them. 

Offline KD

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2010, 04:12:52 am »
The poisons concentration in egg is certainly not proportional to the introduced quantities, but increases quickly as soon as the threshold of adaptability of the bird is exceeded. But if we want to be sure of what we do and knowing that minor amounts of antigenic molecules can have important effects on the immune system, warden of our health (for example allergies, maintenance of tolerances), we of course have the greatest advantage  in avoiding unknown factors which consequences in terms of health are unidentified, and therefore to eat exclusively eggs form sources as perfect as possible.

Other than the last sentence, which makes perfect sense, I found the summary way more complicated than the original, and what seemed in total (both passages) to be a condemnation of all eggs to then be a minor criticism of eggs of 'organic' and commercial varieties.

prior to that my summary was

a.) that chickens are fed unnatural diets, have for ages, and therefore make for poor quality food. We cannot know for certain what is passed through to the egg. and b.) that ANY symptoms from taking in eggs among modern humans - even those raised on 100% pasteurized and cooked foods but are currently consuming natural diets/supposedly reversed to some degree such unhealthy origins, OR animals that have also been succumb also to some degeneration, but are currently consuming natural diets - is a solid indicator that chickens eggs, no matter what source can ever regain their healthfulness on natural pastured diets. This seems to be a heavy contradiction of definitions of health, the attainability of health through diet and natural living, and questions the very symptoms or lack that indicate health/ailment.

Since merely having an effect on the nervous system among many systems, and thus vast amounts of associated symptoms, is in no way an indicator that the food is in fact harmful - as any shift in bacteria, particularly in a unhealthy vessel, can create such symptoms - experiencing any negative symptom ever on a natural diet would be equally suspect as being caused by a problematic food. If no amount of breeding and diet shift of chickens can create a healthy bird and offspring, there is absolutely no chance a human in their lifetime can take some stance of health snobbery when experiencing negative symptoms over another individual who can consume natural food with no symptoms, as we can do any number of studies on vegetarians with high or past-due meats and illustrate. Any useful study in this regard cannot account for anything other than with a perfect being within a perfect environment and a perfect lineage as a test subject. If our gut instincts and taste were truly enough to ward us from such things without the use of our rational or scientific brain, then in proximity to this ideal, Mr. Coyote, not only routinely eats eggs, but caches eggs for further eating. So obviously either desperation has clouded their sense of healthfulness, or the effect of civilization has rendered the instincts of such a feral animal fairly inept, even with a conscious? decision to return to the same exact grouping of food, therefore not acting on impulse. Either way, this bodes poorly for the degenerate humans of today, at least in suppressing their brains, if not their hope for survival and healing through a natural diet, as already mentioned
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 04:22:22 am by KD »

Offline GCB

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2010, 07:03:09 am »
Hans89,
concerning seeds which germinate in spite of a temperature rise during drying: the fact that a seed manages to germinate doesn’t mean it has not been altered. Some molecules damaged by the thermal shocks can have a certain toxicity for the consumer, without this toxicity preventing germination. Moreover, the germ can appear and be apparently normal, whereas the growth of the plant will be defective thereafter.

Paleo Donk wrote:
Quote
Burger's scenario seems pretty doomsdayish. How long would we have to wait before commercial hens can no longer produce healthy offspring because of the accumulated toxins?

Commercial hens live one year only and get replaced. No problem with accumulated toxins.
In contrast, we humans accumulate toxins from eggs and toxins from meat and we live much longer, so that the problem isn't the same.

Quote
Or are commercial hens hatched from good sources, so the cycle of accumulated toxins does not continue? But if todays commercial eggs are produced from many generations of chickens fed a horrible diet then it seems the tipping point is far off.

Every commercial hen comes from an egg and accumulates the toxins brought by her food. An single egg represent a quite minor input of toxins relatively  to the 2 kg of the hen. The cycle begins every time anew. The problem is for the human consumer.

Quote
Also, wouldn't the eggs be the last place a hen would want to excrete its toxins into?

In the past, confectioners tested the smell of each egg before using it and they threw away those having a bad smell. It looks like a hen eliminates her toxins in about one egg on 25, which wouldn't be available for reproduction. Nobody knows really what happens with these bad eggs, but it's better to avoid them (their taste is anyway discouraging when eaten raw).

Quote
Perhaps the taste difference that is reported does not correspond to toxins.

It’s likely that the taste of fish doesn't reveal toxic molecules. However, such a molecular phenomenon is independent of the fact that the substances are noxious or not for man. Therefore the phenomenon which is possible with aromatic molecules is also likely with toxic substances.

gcb
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 07:13:38 am by GCB »

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2010, 08:43:17 am »
In the past, confectioners tested the smell of each egg before using it and they threw away those having a bad smell. It looks like a hen eliminates her toxins in about one egg on 25, which wouldn't be available for reproduction. Nobody knows really what happens with these bad eggs, but it's better to avoid them (their taste is anyway discouraging when eaten raw).

Thanks for the responses. This makes heaps of sense that the organism would dump all its toxins in just one egg and not equally. In the book Vegetarian Myth, the author describes how certain species of trees will purposefully let one amongst a group die off and get eaten by invaders as so that these invaders do not evolve immunities to the trees defenses. Pretty clever.

I just smoked a bowl so take the following lightly. I did a quick googling and there are supposedly reports (probably just anti-gay propaganda)  that gay men have significantly shorter life spans. For this thread's purpose perhaps the gay person is comparable to a "bad egg" and they are more easily susceptible to disease or anything really that leads to an early death. I could argue more, but this would derail the thread more.

Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2010, 12:22:14 pm »
ok wait a minute.  i been eating ( cooked ) eggs a lot in the past, up to about 10 per day.  i never noticed any adverse side effects and it was always absolutely one of my favorite things to eat.  so what is wrong with eating raw ones ?  why should i experience problems ?

also how should i eat them raw - any tips on making them more palatable ?

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2010, 12:39:03 pm »
I only eat the yolks. Adding squeezed citrus makes them decent. Adding honey makes it taste pretty good. I also like warm (leave them out at room temperature) yolks better than cold.

Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: organic raw eggs
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2010, 07:01:42 pm »
I only eat the yolks. Adding squeezed citrus makes them decent. Adding honey makes it taste pretty good. I also like warm (leave them out at room temperature) yolks better than cold.

but is honey paleo ?  i know people always used honey but IN WHAT QUANTITIES ?

regardless to me honey is just a souped up sugar.  i don't eat sugar so i can't eat honey either.

if only i could use sugar i remember when i was a kid i used to blend raw egg yolks with sugar - it was AWESOME.

hm ... what about mayo ?  ( home made )



 

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