Author Topic: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment  (Read 61889 times)

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Offline KD

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2010, 08:41:25 am »

I have read about that but oddly haven't experienced it. On the contrary, I seem to be handling carbs a little bit better. I haven't seen anyone else report this, though and I wonder whether adding Dr. Ron's iodine foodlements helped because I noticed it after I started doing that. Vitamin K supplements also appear to be helping reduce (but not eliminate) the dental plaque from carbs.


It seems like in the last few weeks I finally have some positive improvements in terms of handling sugary carbs. I was eating 1-2 pieces of fruit every 1-2 weeks, and this week I had 2x days of 2 bananas and once with 2 fuji apples, the occasional dabs of honey, and some beet added to celery/herb juices as a digestive aid. These are probably the highest sugar I can think of, and they havn't been causing the instantaneous ear itching and sometimes feet itching I was experiencing. Still some tiredness, but I think that goes hand and hand when not having carbs as a main fuel source and also the type of carbs in hybrid bananas and apples. I felt totally fine after the beet and honey, although honey is not at all pleasurable for me to eat, and havn't been wowed with any benefits thus far. I don't think I'm ready to to return to eating fruit as any sizeable portion of my diet (even in a pinch, which would be nice if traveling), but I definitely see this as a positive trend in my health.

Judging by the type of symptoms ZC people report, I suspect to a pretty high percentage that there is still some kind of fungus or other issues present, and not at all to do with shifting digestive bacteria, which would manifest differently: 'the runs' etc... [speaking only of small amounts of course, as large quantities of sugar can yield different results].
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 08:46:39 am by KD »

Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2010, 05:36:52 pm »
Day 4 zero carb. Huge improvement compared to yesterday. The pain in my head is gone now. Yesterday, the pain started in the front of my brain then later moved to the middle part. Was able to get some work done despite this distraction. My muscles seem to be powered almost fully today. It is either some emergency reservoir of glucose that has kicked in or I'm starting to burn fat for fuel. I feel a smooth stable constant flow of energy. Brain still only powered 6/10, but much better than yesterday.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2010, 07:06:58 pm »
Interesting to see how you go, there's a fair few people on here who have done well on RZC

-Lex
-Raw Rob
-djr81
-Ioanna
-Inger
-Yon
-Myself
-PaleoPhil


Do you fast? there's so many studies that show benefits of fasting such as higher HGH,T and ghrelin. Interestingly SAS soldiers have high levels of Ghrelin.
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Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2010, 12:15:47 am »
Interesting to see how you go, there's a fair few people on here who have done well on RZC

I'm trying to find out if running on fat is superior to running on sugar. If fat burning proves superior I might purposely keep fruit intake low to stay in that mode, but for now fruit is out until I'm fully adapted.

Do you fast? there's so many studies that show benefits of fasting such as higher HGH,T and ghrelin.

I eat twice a day now at 10.30 and 17.30. So that's a fasting period of 17 hours every day after my last meal. Even before the ZC experiment I noticed that finishing my last meal before 18.00 results in much deeper sleep and more energy in the morning. Late eating interferes with growth hormone secretion. Increased GH levels is one of the things I'm looking forward to as apparently this is another benefit of lower insulin levels. I remember DeVany talked about this at great length in his dvds.
 
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 01:25:33 am »
Some people do well with cold turkey transitions to ZC, whereas others do better with gradual transitions of a week or more. When I polled on this (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/how-did-you-transition-to-zccarnivore/), it varied about equally, so it appears to depend more on the individual than any set rule. So if you encounter difficulties you might try a more gradual transition.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2010, 04:16:22 am »
Some people do well with cold turkey transitions to ZC, whereas others do better with gradual transitions of a week or more. So if you encounter difficulties you might try a more gradual transition.

I was going to do it like include one or two apples a day but I decided not to as full adaption might take longer that way. I literally want to shock my body into creating more mitochondria so I can use fat more efficiently. So unless I start passing out, going into coma or something similar no fruit shall pass through my mouth. Also I just read these two articles by Dr Harris. Didn't understand all of it but from what I did fat-burning gives the best fuel and sugar burning is merely a backup mechanism.

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/5/18/there-are-no-essential-carbohydrates-even-for-athletes.html

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/28/carbohydrates-no-dietary-requirement-but-metabolically-criti.html
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2010, 04:44:35 am »
Yes, and there's another advantage of promoting aerobic cellular respiration by using fats (technically, ketone bodies and beta-hydroxybutyric acid) as the main fuel rather than promoting anaerobic cellular respiration by using carbs as the main fuel. Aerobic cellular respiration promotes the health and biogenesis (production) of mitochondria, which improves one's cardiovascular fitness and reportedly slows aging, whereas anaerobic respiration is the preferred fuel source of cancer cells (see the Warburg hypothesis) and pathogenic obligate anaerobic bacteria (such as those that produce tetanus or botulinum toxins).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline luis

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2010, 03:17:38 pm »
Paleophil, can you explain better what your daily diet is?
How many meals you take every day,how much meat, fat,etc? Do you exercise regularly?
I am thinking of trying ZC because of potential mental benefits. How long did it take for you to improve mentally?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2010, 05:28:50 pm »
Well, there is certainly no real-world evidence for longer lifespans on ZC as the Inuit were not known for being particularly long-lived. Plus, there's the Bear's example of throat-cancer which shows that ZC doesn't protect against cancer at all, even after decades.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2010, 08:13:08 pm »
I think I can report some first positive benefits on ZC so far. My sense of smell has become like 4 times stronger compared to a week ago. On raw paleo it was already way stronger than on SAD diet but now it seems to have improved even more. I just walked through a park and I could smell the overwhelming scent of flowers from a great distance. The trip on the bus however was a less pleasant experience.   

Also I don't think the head ache and brain fog was because of not being keto adapted. It's these little critters that are dying out who were feeding on sugar and either they are dumping something toxic into my blood or it is a byproduct of their death. I can feel that my blood is becoming cleaner and as it does more energy is becoming available to power my body and brain. This could mean improved oxygen uptake of blood and cells.

Sleep has become deeper which could mean GH secretion has increased because of low insulin levels.

Brain is powered 8/10, body might have already surpassed previous state.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2010, 12:56:00 am »
Correction to my last post: I should have written "(anaerobic) cellular fermentation" rather than "anaerobic cellular respiration".

Well, there is certainly no real-world evidence for longer lifespans on ZC as the Inuit were not known for being particularly long-lived. Plus, there's the Bear's example of throat-cancer which shows that ZC doesn't protect against cancer at all, even after decades.
Yeah, I agree that the evidence indicates that Inuit lifespans weren't as long as current Americans' and I neither recommend nor follow Bear's diet or lifestyle and I disagree with some of his views. I also don't think it's necessary or necessarily optimal to precisely emulate Inuit diets. I wasn't referring to any of that, I was referring to the purported benefits of aerobic cellular respiration per basic biology ("Lactic acid fermentation," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_fermentation. See also "Cellular respiration," http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Cellular_respiration, and "Biology Notes: Chapter 8 – Respiration," www.helpfulnotes.com/files/biology/bch8.pdf) and the Warburg hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis), and findings re: mitochondrial biogenesis and slowdown in cellular aging ("Mitochondria and Aging,"
www.actionbioscience.org/genomic/wallace.html) and nothing more. Here are some links for more info on the connection between ketogenic diets and mitochondrial biogenesis:

> Energy metabolism as part of the anticonvulsant mechanism of the ketogenic diet, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19049599?
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18582445?
> Induction of ketosis may improve mitochondrial function and decrease steady-state amyloid-beta precursor protein (APP) levels in the aged dog, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19168117?
> Mitochondrial biogenesis in the anticonvulsant mechanism of the ketogenic diet, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16807920?
> Polyunsaturated fatty acids of marine origin [EPA and DHA] upregulate mitochondrial biogenesis and induce Beta-oxidation in white fat.
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053209661

Other factors have been reported to promote mitochondrial biogenesis as well, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that fat-heavy diets are the only factor:

> Resveratrol induces mitochondrial biogenesis in endothelial cells,  http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/00368.2009v1
> NO Says Yes to Mitochondria, www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/299/5608/838
> Calorie restriction increases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis in healthy humans, http://www.vetscite.org/publish/items/003569/index.html

One doesn't have to be ZC to use cellular respiration. You're own diet (you last reported 5 - 25% carbs, as I recall) is probably low enough in carbs, high enough in fats, and possibly high enough in certain other substances like resveratrol to experience substantial aerobic cellular respiration and we may learn of other plant compounds that promote cellular respiration, which may turn out to partly explain how some peoples, like the Kitavans, do so well on relatively high-carb diets. Some VLC experts have dismissed the Kitavan and Tarahumara examples, but I'm still interested in what we can learn from them. They eat lots of cooked carbs, however, so you may not be interested in those examples. Do you know of any examples of peoples who eat relatively high carb diets that are as raw as those of the Inuit, Chukchi and Nenets? That would be an interesting comparison.

Whether any of this results in any lengthening of lifespan or not I don't know, as there have been no studies investigating that, AFAIK. I was thinking more in terms of quality of life than lifespan. I know that many people appear to place lifespan as a top priority, and it is worth consideration, but my focus tends to be more on quality of life.

Do you have any info that shows aerobic cellular respiration or mitochondrial biogenesis to have bad effects? I'm interested to learn of any downsides to these processes.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2010, 01:18:57 am »
Paleophil, can you explain better what your daily diet is?
How many meals you take every day,how much meat, fat,etc? Do you exercise regularly?
I am thinking of trying ZC because of potential mental benefits. How long did it take for you to improve mentally?
Below are some foods I eat. I don't typically measure my foods, but I eat about 70-80% of calories as fat. I transitioned to VLC gradually in steps, eliminating one or two or three foods at a time. Some times I noticed some mental improvements within a day, sometimes I didn't notice it much until a few weeks or a month later.

I try to incorporate exercise into my daily life rather than focusing on driving to a gym for occasional intense sessions, which seems more artificial to me, though I will have access to a weight room soon that I can walk to. I do significant walking (and rarely drive my car) and brief sprints and stair/hill climbs 5-6 days a week about 3+ miles/day. I do body weight exercises 1-2 times/week like those recommended in this forum by Skinny Devil and by Ben Fury at the Dirty Carnivore forum and by Esther Gokhale and others (and I was doing most of them before I read the advice of these people, thanks in part to the advice of my father, who studied exercise physiology--so their tips were mostly confirmational, which is still important and appreciated). I do some gentle yoga and try to incorporate natural posture and body movements like some of those advocated by Esther Gokhale, as well as using barefoot-style shoes. I use a thera-band at my desk at work for some light exercise and stretching breaks.

Grass-fed ground beef
Suet, grassfed
Ground Venison
Ribeye steak
Salmon, wild fresh
Yellowfin Tuna, Hawaiian sushi grade
Top round steak
Liver, chicken
Liver, GF beef/lamb
Heart, GF beef
Lean pork (loin) for thiamine
Vermont cob-smoked bacon
D'Artagnan uncured duck bacon
Fertile eggs, medium
Kelp
Oysters, wild
Marrow
Berries, black grapes, peaches
Young greens, cabbage, herbs
Dasani Mineral Water
Dried Mackerel
Tea
Pepper, sea salt
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 01:54:19 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2010, 01:48:44 am »
Plus, there's the Bear's example of throat-cancer which shows that ZC doesn't protect against cancer at all, even after decades.

He might have gotten that cancer to manifest 30 years earlier where he not ZC but a fat SAD eater. In that case his ZC did protect him for 30 years. It tells us really nothing. Little children of 2 years old get cancer too, nothing to do with diet in their case just DNA damage.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2010, 04:29:04 am »
He might have gotten that cancer to manifest 30 years earlier where he not ZC but a fat SAD eater. In that case his ZC did protect him for 30 years. It tells us really nothing. Little children of 2 years old get cancer too, nothing to do with diet in their case just DNA damage.
His throat-cancer came about despite/because of his ZC diet , not well  before it. Plus, it's known that omega-3s are preventative against cancer,and The Bear, like most ZCers, is a big fan of omega-3-deficient grainfed meats.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2010, 04:33:54 am »
I know of no specific raw vegan diet tribes, though there are a number of vegan tribes. But since humans often eat veg raw and fruit almost always raw for a number of reasons , it is likely that some such tribes have as high a proportion of raw as the Inuit(presumably c,.50%?)

As for the claims re mitochondrial microgenesis etc., there's too little definite data re food-science to be really sure of such vague results. Caloric restriction, at least, has been shown to prolong lifespan but comes at a terrible cost re generalised weakness/ill-health etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2010, 05:31:43 am »
... it is likely that some such tribes have as high a proportion of raw as the Inuit(presumably c,.50%?)
Let me know if you come across any like that. That would make for an interesting comparison--a tribe that doesn't cook many tubers but instead eats a lot of raw carbs as compared to the Inuit/Yupik/Nenets/Chukchi/Evenks/etc.

Quote
As for the claims re mitochondrial microgenesis etc., there's too little definite data re food-science to be really sure of such vague results. Caloric restriction, at least, has been shown to prolong lifespan but comes at a terrible cost re generalised weakness/ill-health etc.
The only thing I'm sure of is that I'm certain of nothing. Seeking surety about anything is not one of my goals. If you come across anything specific that contradicts the purported benefits or processes of cellular respiration or mitochondrial biogenesis, I would be interested to see it.

Caloric restriction definitely seems too extreme an approach to me, though the proponents of intermittent fasting claim it provides the same benefits as CR without the negative side effects and IF seems more natural than CR. I think Katelyn said that IF is also purported to promote muscle-building hormones. It will be interesting to see what future research produces re: IF.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:49:30 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2010, 09:24:50 am »
This is a great journal. I really appreciate it.

Offline klowcarb

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2010, 09:26:05 am »
I think Katelyn said that IF is also purported to promote muscle-building hormones. It will be interesting to see what future research produces re: IF.

IFing / fasting promotes growth hormones. Researchers were surprised to find that subjects who were fasting and eating low carb maintained or built muscle, and they theorize it was the growth hormone released. I certainly have not seen a reduction in muscle since being raw ZC and IFing daily.  

I find I can eat more calories when IFing (purposely eating more) and stay leaner, because of the benefits of not raising insulin at other times during the day, and perhaps the growth hormone. Either way, such positives!

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2010, 04:30:09 pm »
The only catch re IF is that a number of studies have shown lesser results for IF than for caloric restriction, in a number of cases(re lifespan etc.) though of course IF doesn't have the negative side-effects. There's an interesting "fasting" yahoo group which focuses on IF/CR which produces studies on this sort of thing all the time.
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Offline Hans89

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2010, 05:18:17 pm »
though there are a number of vegan tribes.

Really? Which ones? I was under the impression that no such tribes existed.

Offline Hans89

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2010, 05:21:01 pm »
Dried. I've never seen it sold fresh.

Do you just chew on it? Or soak it? I was wondering about the nutritional benefits of eating it raw, as it seems that the nutrients are bound to the fiber which makes assimilation difficult without somehow processing it.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2010, 05:43:14 pm »
Really? Which ones? I was under the impression that no such tribes existed.
It's false Weston-Price propaganda which tries to claim there are no vegan tribes or that there are no vegetarian tribes which are reasonably healthy. Here's 1 or 2 examples, there are more which are vegetarian- or  strongly vegetarian-leaning such as the Hunzas/Kitavans:-

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2005/01/07/stories/2005010700080200.htm

There was also some vague mention of an iranian vegan tribe who were shown not to have b12 deficiency as they consumed vegetables grown in B12-rich human manure:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7d.shtml

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/3/374
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 06:12:26 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Hans89

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2010, 01:04:42 am »
It's false Weston-Price propaganda which tries to claim there are no vegan tribes or that there are no vegetarian tribes which are reasonably healthy. Here's 1 or 2 examples, there are more which are vegetarian- or  strongly vegetarian-leaning such as the Hunzas/Kitavans:-

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2005/01/07/stories/2005010700080200.htm

There was also some vague mention of an iranian vegan tribe who were shown not to have b12 deficiency as they consumed vegetables grown in B12-rich human manure:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7d.shtml

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/3/374


Well, that rather confirms that there aren't any vegan tribes. Some vague mention of Persian vegans... Maybe some special religious group? Price actually mentioned a lot of populations who predominantly ate plant foods and did well, like the Bantu in Africa or South-Sea Islanders, I also think he mentioned a healthy lacto-vegetarian group in India. Price also recommended a largely vegetarian diet with some dairy and a little animal protein (I think he wrote one sardine a day would suffice or something.) But that is something completely different from being vegan! Vegan would mean that people would eschew animal products in any shape or form. Those tribes probably saw that they could support more people with their largely plant-based diet and probably would have eaten more animal foods if they had had the option.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2010, 03:30:23 am »
You didn't read the above properly. The 1st link concerned certain Aryan tribes in India which focused solely on vegan foods, no other foods. And that group in Iran was a tribe, not a religious sect. Although, granted, several religious offshoots(India etc.) have also practised 100% vegan diets throughout history even until now.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Hans89

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2010, 05:47:43 am »
You didn't read the above properly. The 1st link concerned certain Aryan tribes in India which focused solely on vegan foods, no other foods. And that group in Iran was a tribe, not a religious sect. Although, granted, several religious offshoots(India etc.) have also practised 100% vegan diets throughout history even until now.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and since you mentioned the Kitavans and Hunza I thought it was more in that vain... If that is true, then that's pretty intense... Anyway, WAP just said he didn't find any vegan tribes, which surprised him, because he expected to find some. I think WAP's data was very limited, hence his conclusions may not be 100% accurate... Anyway, I don't think the term "propaganda" fits WAP, unless you mean the WAP Foundation...

 

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