Author Topic: How big?  (Read 76584 times)

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Offline Nation

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Re: How big?
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2010, 09:42:33 pm »
You should ask Brock Lesnar about protein shakes, maybe he could show you pictures of his endoscopy with holes in his stomach.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: How big?
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2010, 10:11:14 pm »
i am not looking for excuses to avoid eating animal flesh.  i WANT to eat it.  but i have to look at it rationally.  out of 3 options:

1 - protein shakes
2 - raw meat
3 - cooked meat

all 3 have their own risks.  anyway this is off topic, let's not derail the thread.

Seems you are not interested in adopting a RAW PALEO DIET.
If you are not interested in adopting a RAW PALEO DIET,
if you are not choosing option (2) RAW MEAT,
then you are in the WRONG forum.


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Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2010, 10:24:16 pm »
You should ask Brock Lesnar about protein shakes, maybe he could show you pictures of his endoscopy with holes in his stomach.

my doctor told me when i was on steroids ( he knew i was on them because i told him ) that i will have kidney damage from the sheer VOLUME OF EXERCISE i was doing.  he knew i was using tons of protein and i was using tons of steroids but he said the real problem was lifting weights in the 300+ pound range for 20 hours a week.  he said that all the soreness meant that muscle fragments were floating in my blood eventually reaching kidneys.  steroid mega-doses were able to repair the muscle damage in time for the next workout but there was nothing to help other organs deal with the stress overload on the body.

that's why instead of singling out steroids or protein i realized that in the BIG PICTURE it is the unnatural physique itself that was the culprit and i would be hurting my health one way or the other if i tried to maintain it.  you can't look like a freak and be healthy.

there are basically 3 ways to get bigger:

1 - take steroids
2 - eat more protein and calories
3 - work out with higher intensity

the problem is EACH of them is detrimental to health.  for example:

1 - bad cholesterol ratio, bad blood pressure, prostate enlargement leading to cancer, hair loss, liver damage.
2 - kidney damage, insulin resistance leading to diabetes
3 - kidney damage, high cortisol leading to heart disease, overuse leading to injury

bottom line - NO FREE LUNCH

sure you can be smarter or stupider about either of the 3 so you can do more or less damage with more or less results depending on how intelligent you are but ON THE AVERAGE the more unnatural-looking your GOALS the more damage you will end up doing reaching them

i will give you guys this - protein powders are a relatively recent development so there IS a *risk* or a *chance* that they may in themselves be detrimental to health ( in addition to any detrimental effects of excessive total protein consumption ).  because of this i will try to limit my use of them as much as i can, but i don't see at present time any way for myself to discontinue them completely.

Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2010, 10:31:20 pm »
Seems you are not interested in adopting a RAW PALEO DIET.
If you are not interested in adopting a RAW PALEO DIET,
if you are not choosing option (2) RAW MEAT,
then you are in the WRONG forum.


i am interested in adopting certain raw paleo foods - such as raw eggs.  i am looking for balance.  i don't believe that any one diet got everything 100% exactly right.  some have gotten close ( raw and paleo ones ) while others missed the boat completely ( low fat ) but nobody got it 100% right.

before coming here i was on raw foods ( vegetarian ) forums for a few weeks.  they banned me for promoting protein shakes.  they never did manage to convince me that the best diet for humans was grass, but i did pick up a lot of tips from them - because of my participation on those forums i now use Hemp and Chia seeds blended in a Vita-Mix several times a day.

i intend to "take home" some foods, concepts and ideas from this forum as well.  i do *not* intend to suddenly forget everything i learned in the last 30 years of my life though and adopt the raw paleo diet without any modifications.

Offline miles

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Re: How big?
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2010, 10:46:07 pm »
but.. what... The palaeolithic diet is not named after someone, it's not a thing someone came up with and sold. The palaeolithic diet is 100% right. Not that anyone of us is eating the palaeolithic diet, we're just improving our health by following its' principles... It is the based on the principles of evolution and adaptation, of nature. How can you even compare it to vegetarianism? There is no sense to say that our diet should be of grass... Our head is far from the ground, we have one stomach etc... It would seem that you do not understand what the Palaeolithic diet really is... Vegetarians like to come up with these new super-foods all the time at random, because none ever give them what they want... What is the reasoning behind Hemp and Chia seeds being beneficial to you? There is none... What is the reasoning behind the Palaeolithic diet? It is its own reasoning...
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Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2010, 11:05:11 pm »
but.. what... The palaeolithic diet is not named after someone, it's not a thing someone came up with and sold. The palaeolithic diet is 100% right. Not that anyone of us is eating the palaeolithic diet, we're just improving our health by following its' principles... It is the based on the principles of evolution and adaptation, of nature. How can you even compare it to vegetarianism? There is no sense to say that our diet should be of grass... Our head is far from the ground, we have one stomach etc... It would seem that you do not understand what the Palaeolithic diet really is... Vegetarians like to come up with these new super-foods all the time at random, because none ever give them what they want... What is the reasoning behind Hemp and Chia seeds being beneficial to you? There is none... What is the reasoning behind the Palaeolithic diet? It is its own reasoning...

any religious fanatic can come up with ways to explain why his religion is true and other religions are evil and false.

and yet statistically agnostic people have highest IQ and religious people lowest ( regardless of religion ) while atheists are in the middle.

i prefer to stay agnostic on this issue.  you *may* be right.  you could also be wrong.

think of how many things the humanity was able to improve since paleo days - roads, cars, houses, computers.  yes it is true that modern diet is utter SH1T compared to paleo diet - there is no argument about that.  but that doesn't mean that all of our knowledge and technology COULD NOT be used to IMPROVE UPON the paleo diet.

yes the humans evolved to conform their bodies to the paleo diet, but the paleo diet did not evolve to conform to the human body !  today we have the option to do that - to "evolve" our diet to match our bodies needs.  unfortunately we don't know what our needs are that's why all modern diets fail.  but that only proves that we don't know anything - it doesn't *prove* that we know paleo is ideal.

get it ? :)

paleo is not the ultimate destination - it is the logical starting point.  you start with a paleo diet because quite frankly there is nowhere else to logically start.  i have no doubt that paleo can be improved upon.  i just don't know HOW to do it.  i also know that in the past all attempts to improve our diets have made it worse.  but as Morpheus said to Neo "where others have failed you will succeed" HAHAHAHA ! ! !
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 11:13:15 pm by NEUROSPORT »

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: How big?
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2010, 11:25:17 pm »
Raw Paleo is never about religious fanaticism, this board is about GETTING HEALTHY RESULTS.
A good number of us turned to raw paleo because we were sick on the "other" diets.

With your current resting blood pressure of 135 = this is a total disaster and one you have to solve quickly.

Whatever you are doing now is dangerous for your health given that blood pressure.


i am interested in adopting certain raw paleo foods - such as raw eggs.  i am looking for balance.  i don't believe that any one diet got everything 100% exactly right.  some have gotten close ( raw and paleo ones ) while others missed the boat completely ( low fat ) but nobody got it 100% right.

before coming here i was on raw foods ( vegetarian ) forums for a few weeks.  they banned me for promoting protein shakes.  they never did manage to convince me that the best diet for humans was grass, but i did pick up a lot of tips from them - because of my participation on those forums i now use Hemp and Chia seeds blended in a Vita-Mix several times a day.

i intend to "take home" some foods, concepts and ideas from this forum as well.  i do *not* intend to suddenly forget everything i learned in the last 30 years of my life though and adopt the raw paleo diet without any modifications.
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Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2010, 01:27:43 am »
Raw Paleo is never about religious fanaticism, this board is about GETTING HEALTHY RESULTS.
A good number of us turned to raw paleo because we were sick on the "other" diets.

With your current resting blood pressure of 135 = this is a total disaster and one you have to solve quickly.

Whatever you are doing now is dangerous for your health given that blood pressure.



i'm 29 now and my blood pressure is like i said significantly lower than it was when i was 23.

there is zero reason to believe that my current diet caused my high blood pressure.

now when i developed this problem originally i was doing a lot of unhealthy things at the same time - steroids, stimulants, very large doses of protein, and extreme training.  which one did it ?  i don't know.  

i agree with you that protein could be a contributing factor, and as precautionary measure i will try to reduce it.

just stop talking about it.  my grandfather had high blood pressure and he never exercised and barely had any proteins in his diet.  his blood pressure was extremely high during his last few years ( going up to as much as 180 at times ) and in the end he died from something else altogether - prostate cancer.

ok it's time for my bike ride.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 01:33:01 am by NEUROSPORT »

Offline B.Money

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Re: How big?
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2010, 01:34:20 am »
Hmmmm Neuro I am just not quite sure what to think of you yet  :D (no offense of course)

In one hand I think its possible you never gave eating properly and training properly a good chance, and went straight into drugs and supplements. It's possible your beef is with drugs and supplements, and not with being big or lifting weights.

The reason I mention this is because you mention strange things (could be a coincidence). But all the serious lifters I know have stats they are very proud of, even if it was in the past of the squat, bench, and deadlift...and you give me a stat on pullups. Maybe you are just trying to give something everyones familiar with, I don't know but thats fine.

Then you mention going to your doctor and he has you convinced its the WEIGHT your lifting is whats the big problem. To be honest this is the first time I have ever heard anything about that and it sounds kind of silly. I know many many people out there including myself that lift weights well over 300lbs every workout, and everyone I know is natural, with no health problems.

But I will say its very hard to get the whole picture over the internet, and things are not always what they seem. I just hope that your not blaming the wrong things.

Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2010, 06:59:39 am »
Hmmmm Neuro I am just not quite sure what to think of you yet  :D (no offense of course)

In one hand I think its possible you never gave eating properly and training properly a good chance, and went straight into drugs and supplements. It's possible your beef is with drugs and supplements, and not with being big or lifting weights.

The reason I mention this is because you mention strange things (could be a coincidence). But all the serious lifters I know have stats they are very proud of, even if it was in the past of the squat, bench, and deadlift...and you give me a stat on pullups. Maybe you are just trying to give something everyones familiar with, I don't know but thats fine.

Then you mention going to your doctor and he has you convinced its the WEIGHT your lifting is whats the big problem. To be honest this is the first time I have ever heard anything about that and it sounds kind of silly. I know many many people out there including myself that lift weights well over 300lbs every workout, and everyone I know is natural, with no health problems.

But I will say its very hard to get the whole picture over the internet, and things are not always what they seem. I just hope that your not blaming the wrong things.

what i could lift is simply irrelevant because you were not there to see it.

i don't want to be like an old fart that tells kids "when i was your age so and so".

90% of your friends that are "natural" are on steroids.  all of my friends in the gym were on steroids and all of them said they were natural.  they also all sold steroids to each other.

this last clown i was friends with ( i am not at that gym any more, otherwise would still be friends with him ) was 29 years old and claimed that he started working out at 28.  he said he was a natural.  he was deadlifting 600 pounds and his face was BLACK from acne.  natural my ass.  also when we talked we talked only about steroids.  all he wanted to know was more information about steroids - all the while repeating about how he doesn't use them.

when a guy tells another guy in the gym "i am natural" it's like when a guy tells his girlfriend "i love you".  it doesn't mean anything.


Offline B.Money

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Re: How big?
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2010, 07:38:50 am »
I think you have me mistaken for somebody that has not been around lifting much. I know for a fact who is natural and who is not in my group, not only because of being friends in and outside of the gym, these same friends are competition in tested powerlifting divisions. Some also do not compete in tested divisions. I have a friend that is closing in on a legit 600lb raw competition bench, I would not believe it either until I knew him well and went to tested powerlifting meets with him. In the same group we have a guy who is 165lbs closing in on a 400lb touch and go bench.

I also know a lot of guys who are on gear who are nowhere near those strength levels. Point being, strong is relative, and you don't need to be on stuff to be strong. Strongest? yes, but its unfair to call somebody out on drugs because they have a 600lb deadlift--there are lots of guys who have hit 600+ deadlift without drugs.

edit: just to add, in groups of powerlifting--we all know who is on stuff and who isn't, its not a secret. Bodybuilding is totally different.

edit2: wanted to also add--you have a good point though, and I know your view to be true 99% of the time... some guys just wont admit it, especially bodybuilders and gym rats. They all want you to think they got to where they are naturally, and its rarely not a lie.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 07:47:32 am by B.Money »

Offline KD

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Re: How big?
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2010, 09:50:45 am »

yes the humans evolved to conform their bodies to the paleo diet, but the paleo diet did not evolve to conform to the human body !  today we have the option to do that - to "evolve" our diet to match our bodies needs.  unfortunately we don't know what our needs are that's why all modern diets fail.  but that only proves that we don't know anything - it doesn't *prove* that we know paleo is ideal.
HAHAHAHA ! ! !

ok, I'm with you here somewhat, and disregard that other nonsense about seeds, as obviously those have been existentence before humans ever walked on two legs, and as a food source for humans dating back at least as far back as thousand of years before civilization. Whether they are ideal nutrition is debatable however, and there are some heavy (founded) biases against plant proteins here.

you are totally right in that a raw paleo diet will not ensure anybody health per se, but most people are clearly here because it has given them some results at least thus far (alas there are some morons who get stuck in the theory of it, like any other alternative methodology as being the right and only way even in spite of often misfiring on day to day practice and results)

however, what I was trying to get at earlier is that even though you are recognizing some things that are needed to be done with your exercise (rightly or wrongly), you are still acting under the same mentality of unbalanced priorities as the steroid dayz. I don't know how accurate GS is on your blood pressure, but in general he is right in terms of that and other issues being the focus of attention and healing rather than bodyfat and weight-loss. I tend to think he's right on proteins not at all being similar, but the other thing about RAF is its really the only approach where one can healthfully eat a high fat diet with a moderate or low protein level.  If anything, since you are a big guy and don't care about maintaining weight, you are at an advantage in taking it easy of yourself and concentrating on health.

Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2010, 10:28:39 am »
I think you have me mistaken for somebody that has not been around lifting much. I know for a fact who is natural and who is not in my group, not only because of being friends in and outside of the gym, these same friends are competition in tested powerlifting divisions. Some also do not compete in tested divisions. I have a friend that is closing in on a legit 600lb raw competition bench, I would not believe it either until I knew him well and went to tested powerlifting meets with him. In the same group we have a guy who is 165lbs closing in on a 400lb touch and go bench.

I also know a lot of guys who are on gear who are nowhere near those strength levels. Point being, strong is relative, and you don't need to be on stuff to be strong. Strongest? yes, but its unfair to call somebody out on drugs because they have a 600lb deadlift--there are lots of guys who have hit 600+ deadlift without drugs.

edit: just to add, in groups of powerlifting--we all know who is on stuff and who isn't, its not a secret. Bodybuilding is totally different.

edit2: wanted to also add--you have a good point though, and I know your view to be true 99% of the time... some guys just wont admit it, especially bodybuilders and gym rats. They all want you to think they got to where they are naturally, and its rarely not a lie.

i was chronically overtrained.  i could have been much stronger if i knew about periodization etc.  also i was a bodybuilder, not a powerlifter although my training was somewhat powerlifter-like.

most my lifts were quite weak.  my squat was a nonexistent.  but i was quite strong on chin-ups, on shoulder press ( 140 lb dumbbells for 10 reps, or 150 lb dumbbells for 2 or 3 reps, my working weight was 130 ) and on bent over rows ( 5 plates per side for a few reps once, 4 plates was my working weight ).  i also did 7 plates on the icarian T-Bar machine for reps. 

so my lats were always my strongest point - they were also the first muscle i started training all the way back as a kid.  i was overweight as a kid in USSR and i was the ONLY overweight kid in my class.  most my classmates could do chin ups but i couldn't due to my weight.  i was attending a gym at age 11 or 12 where i would swim laps ( to lose weight ) and do pull downs so i could learn to do chin ups.  but swimming in itself works lats too, and later on i was on a high school swimming team.  so my lats got consistent training since age 11 or so while for example i did not start doing squats and deadlifts until age 18 or so ( my parents told me i would not grow up vertically if i did them as a kid ).  and in case of squats i stopped soon after i started because they were impinging some nerve in my neck.

as for shoulders - steroids help with that a lot.  my back strength was quite good before steroids, and remained decent after steroids as well.  my shoulder strength was 100% steroidal though.  it came and left with them. 

i don't remember the details of my routine but it was something like 2 - 3 hours a day 6 - 7 days a week with very long breaks between sets - like 5 minutes.  i would do sets of 5 - 6 reps and i would do about 3 sets per exercise.  i would train at about 90% of my max all the time.

also i did a lot of pyramids.  that is for example i would start with 60lb dumbbells, work up to 130 ones and then, work back down to 80 lb ones.  i would not go to failure until i would hit the highest weight i was going to do that day ( say 130 lbs ) but once i hit that weight i would go to failure on every set so to failure on 130, then to failure on 110, then to failure on 80 or so.

i really took overtraining to another level :)

but since i was always on 2 or 3 pills of ephedrine in the gym i didn't feel overtrained.

i did not do any cardio and very little ab work.  for abs i would do sit ups on an decline bench with either a 45 lb plate in front of me or a 10 or 25 lb plate behind the head.  i did not do many reps.  i did not believe in reps back then - i believed that growth comes from tension.

my highest one-arm pull down at 220 lbs actually came a few years AFTER quitting steroids when i have already lost half of the muscle.  i managed to increase my strength while losing muscle simply because by that time i understood overtraining. 

when on steroids i did not understand overtraining at all.  one time i had to spend a week in the hospital and it was driving me insane that i couldn't be in the gym.  as soon as they let me out i went straight to the gym and set personal records on everything i lifted that day.  i thought it was "strange" that my strength increased across the board after a week in bed under an IV.  of course that's what was SUPPOSED to happen, but i didn't know it then.

wouldn't it be nice if you could live twice and apply everything you learned in the first life to your second ?  i learned a lot about this sport over the years but i no longer have the health to try what i know on myself any more.

Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2010, 10:46:32 am »
concentrating on health.

i don't believe in health for health's sake, or for the sake of living longer.  to me health is only a means to achieve higher quality of life.  quality over quantity.

what changed in recent years is now i no longer think that quality of life is a function of muscle size.  now i think it is a function of energy levels and having a physique that is lean - the two being closely related.

you see kids growing up want only one thing - to get bigger faster.  older people also want only one thing - and that's to be younger.  to be leaner and have greater energy IS in a way to be younger - and that's what i am working on now.  that's why i cycle 15 - 20 miles per day now at fairly high intensity, instead of lifting weights at the gym.

Offline KD

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Re: How big?
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2010, 12:32:34 pm »
i don't believe in health for health's sake, or for the sake of living longer.  to me health is only a means to achieve higher quality of life.  quality over quantity.

what changed in recent years is now i no longer think that quality of life is a function of muscle size.  now i think it is a function of energy levels and having a physique that is lean - the two being closely related.

Of course, but what I'm saying is you seem to be just shifting within the same paradigm. In a sense this is like your average inactive person, thinking if they spend all their time on a treadmill and avoiding high fat snacks that they will look younger and feel more energetic. Just a bit wishful especially when people cross over into some kind of illness of injury. There are going to have to be other diet and lifestyle factors and rest involved for any serious recovery. You might associate your problems with past types of activity, and thats fine, no one knows better than you on that I suppose, but just shifting your activity is not (likely) going to be the panacea to your problems. So in short, it makes way more sense to just halt most (or all) activity and rest, eat healthful food ( ditch all the performance related 'food) and try to heal your injuries and health issues, don't punish yourself into some body-makeup that statistically has better health or whatever using the same tactics and chemicals and protein excess. That makes no sense and sounds alot like the gym-rats you speak of's wives. Plus, losing weight on raw is just plain easy, hell I could probably be satisfied on 1400 cals a day, I eat like its my friggen job.

Offline NEUROSPORT

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Re: How big?
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2010, 08:05:41 pm »
Of course, but what I'm saying is you seem to be just shifting within the same paradigm. In a sense this is like your average inactive person, thinking if they spend all their time on a treadmill and avoiding high fat snacks that they will look younger and feel more energetic. Just a bit wishful especially when people cross over into some kind of illness of injury. There are going to have to be other diet and lifestyle factors and rest involved for any serious recovery. You might associate your problems with past types of activity, and thats fine, no one knows better than you on that I suppose, but just shifting your activity is not (likely) going to be the panacea to your problems. So in short, it makes way more sense to just halt most (or all) activity and rest, eat healthful food ( ditch all the performance related 'food) and try to heal your injuries and health issues, don't punish yourself into some body-makeup that statistically has better health or whatever using the same tactics and chemicals and protein excess. That makes no sense and sounds alot like the gym-rats you speak of's wives. Plus, losing weight on raw is just plain easy, hell I could probably be satisfied on 1400 cals a day, I eat like its my friggen job.

i know you're right.  its a psychological problem for me.  i just see myself as an "athlete" in my own mind, and to me that means doing all those things - train, supplement etc.  it's hard to stay perfectly objective.  most people are driven to some extent by their own self-image. 

my self image is a product of all those years when i felt competitive with others going into a gym for a workout, which is probably from about age 15 to 25 or so.  that's why i am trying to tell you people not to get competitive in the gym, not think of a workout as a war ( like many do to psych themselves ), not make friends with other crazy folks who scream while lifting etc.  just try to maintain sanity.

 

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