Author Topic: Instincto Debunking Thread  (Read 47518 times)

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Offline Iguana

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2010, 06:43:13 pm »
Ok, dear Alpha, my mistake since I should have written “he was a well known, highly respected musician and the brilliant young assistant of theoretical physics professor Stückelberg which he replaced during a year in Lausanne, our common home town”. AFAIK, he stopped a promising career after being struck by a deadly cancer and than he spend all his time to research and develop his findings in nutrition, plus latter in what he called “metapsychoanalysis”.

Anyway, this thread was not intended to launch treacherous personal attacks, but to DEBUNK the instincto theory.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 08:44:08 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

alphagruis

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2010, 08:30:18 pm »

Anyway, this thread was not intended to launch treacherous personal attacks, but to question the instincto theory.


Iguana alias "Burger told me"

I suggest you apply for a job of moderator in this thread too. You're so funny when you "moderate"  ;D

First step: change the title and replace the insulting "Instincto Debunking Thread" with the more polite "Instincto Questioning Thread"


Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2010, 08:41:27 pm »
Iguana alias "Burger told me"

I suggest you apply for a job of moderator in this thread too. You're so funny when you "moderate"  ;D

First step: change the title and replace the insulting "Instincto Debunking Thread" with the more polite "Instincto Questioning Thread"



Just as a 3rd party point of view, the title of this thread is indeed insulting and meant to insult.  It should be made more polite.

Many people in this forum have issues against Aajonus Vonderplanitz of Primal Diet fame, but we do not go out of our way making Primal Diet Debunking Threads just because raw dairy and raw veggie juice does not work for myself or others.  But raw dairy and raw veggie juice does work for other people.

Aajonus had other outlandish claims unacceptable for other people like the coyotes giving him a live rabbit and that story with the indian wise man...
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2010, 08:46:56 pm »
Iguana alias "Burger told me"

I suggest you apply for a job of moderator in this thread too. You're so funny when you "moderate"  ;D

First step: change the title and replace the insulting "Instincto Debunking Thread" with the more polite "Instincto Questioning Thread"

For your info, I never applied for a job of moderator. I was kindly asked twice to accept that job for the instincto section and I finally and reluctantly accepted.

Thanks for the subtle distinction between “debunking” and “questioning”: I didn’t pay any serious attention to the exact meaning of both words. Since English isn’t my mother tongue, I wasn’t spontaneously aware there’s a so significant difference. Therefore, I just edited my above post to please you..
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2010, 10:40:31 pm »
Just as a 3rd party point of view, the title of this thread is indeed insulting and meant to insult.  It should be made more polite.

Many people in this forum have issues against Aajonus Vonderplanitz of Primal Diet fame, but we do not go out of our way making Primal Diet Debunking Threads just because raw dairy and raw veggie juice does not work for myself or others.  But raw dairy and raw veggie juice does work for other people.

Aajonus had other outlandish claims unacceptable for other people like the coyotes giving him a live rabbit and that story with the indian wise man...

I fully agree and I add that the title of this thread is rather moderate compared to the ceaseless stream of intolerable insults and slander posted by Alphagruis.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

alphagruis

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2010, 10:59:58 pm »
Just as a 3rd party point of view, the title of this thread is indeed insulting and meant to insult.  It should be made more polite.

Many people in this forum have issues against Aajonus Vonderplanitz of Primal Diet fame, but we do not go out of our way making Primal Diet Debunking Threads just because raw dairy and raw veggie juice does not work for myself or others.  But raw dairy and raw veggie juice does work for other people.


GS I don't know of any bona fide instincto, i mean someone applying the 'instinctive" food selection method described by Burger in a Raw Paleo diet and being also in good shape. Those who are healthy just practice plain Raw Paleo. Instincto doesn't work, never.

Would you or other forumers here consider that a "Vegan Debunking Thread" would be insulting?

Would you accept to heavily promote Veganism here?

Whether you believe me or not, Instincto is as flawed as Veganism.   

Offline Hanna

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2010, 03:41:21 am »
Iguana, thank you for translating!  :-*

Who diagnosed J.K. as a "paranoiac"?

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2010, 04:35:11 pm »

Who diagnosed J.K. as a "paranoiac"?


The psychiatrists who treated him during his stays in psychiatric hospital.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 04:41:52 pm by GCB »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2010, 05:08:34 pm »
For your info, I never applied for a job of moderator. I was kindly asked twice to accept that job for the instincto section and I finally and reluctantly accepted.



For those others interested, I was the one who offered the job, without any "application" being involved. It was clear that we needed an actual Instincto follower for the Instincto forum, for obvious reasons, and Iguana fitted the various mod-requirements perfectly with his 22 years on this sort of diet , previous past posts etc.etc.

As for the AV-mentions, I agree. Personal attacks aren't helpful. I have long deeply loathed the mention of AV, due to past disagreements re his advice on raw dairy etc., but I found that it actually backfired on me when I went on the warpath too much. Eventually, I had to admit that AV was, at least, right on some  issues, though I still hate his guts for a number of past reasons.

*Back in 2 weeks*.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

alphagruis

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2010, 09:32:26 pm »


For those others interested, I was the one who offered the job, without any "application" being involved. It was clear that we needed an actual Instincto follower for the Instincto forum, for obvious reasons, and Iguana fitted the various mod-requirements perfectly with his 22 years on this sort of diet , previous past posts etc.etc.

As for the AV-mentions, I agree. Personal attacks aren't helpful. I have long deeply loathed the mention of AV, due to past disagreements re his advice on raw dairy etc., but I found that it actually backfired on me when I went on the warpath too much. Eventually, I had to admit that AV was, at least, right on some  issues, though I still hate his guts for a number of past reasons.

*Back in 2 weeks*.

TD,

-First I didn't care at all and I'm not even interested in whether Iguana was offered or applied for his job as a moderator in Instincto section. Obviously he was not offered to moderate in the Hot Topics section. So I suggested him to apply for a job of moderator including this section too. Period.

-Second for your info Iguana in spite of his or Burger's claims is not more Instincto than I am. In the 2005-2009 time bracket we met many times and I know perfectly well how and what he eats. His nutritional balance as mine has nothing to do with instincts and until Iguana met Burger last fall and fell under his influence he considered that my criticisms of Burger were at least "interesting and constructive".

-Third I was the first here to point out several months before Burger (most likely urged to do so by Iguana) ever posted here that he is right on his Raw Paleo stance and was so more than 40 years ago before many others. My criticisms only have to do with his ridiculous babble about instincts.

-Fourth in spite of their babble I'm not on a warpath with him or Iguana or other  so-called instinctos. What for? Instincto is already dead.  And I don't want the disappearence of the last two of them. ;D
My posts up to now on this subject (and for various reasons there won't be many more of them, maybe only one more later on) are mainly the result of a failed attempt to seriously debate on a scientific level in a French forum with this man. His dishonesty and prevarication were immediately so obvious that I stopped any further serious discussion with him. Let me be very clear, he belongs to that kind of humans I therefore despise most on this planet and so my "instinctive" tendency  ;D) is to be rude with him. And I take this readily on myself and please notice that insults or sarcasms are on both sides. But in constrast to Iguana's ridiculous bleatings, I don't complain at all. I don't care to be insulted by such people.   

   

Offline djr_81

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #135 on: July 17, 2010, 11:34:31 pm »
-First I didn't care at all and I'm not even interested in whether Iguana was offered or applied for his job as a moderator in Instincto section. Obviously he was not offered to moderate in the Hot Topics section. So I suggested him to apply for a job of moderator including this section too. Period.
No, but I am moderating this section.

Everyone is thrown unnecessary comments back and forth in this thread. There's also been very little to no movement in any constructive direction the past couple pages. I am going to close the topic now. If one of the global mods feels it should still be open they'll open it but for now everyone's just beating a dead horse.

Addendum:
I received a PM not long after the locking of the thread wherein Iguana requested the following to be posted. As he was typing this when I locked the thread I will acquiesce with his request.

Quote
Alphagruis,
Quote
-Second for your info Iguana in spite of his or Burger's claims is not more Instincto than I am. In the 2005-2009 time bracket we met many times and I know perfectly well how and what he eats. His nutritional balance as mine has nothing to do with instincts and until Iguana met Burger last fall and fell under his influence he considered that my criticisms of Burger were at least "interesting and constructive".

I’m awestruck to learn that my nutritional balance has nothing to do with my instincts!

For your info again, I met GC Burger in 1987 and we kept in touch ever since. I still consider that your earlier mild “criticisms” of the instincto theory were interesting and at least done in a constructive spirit. When they became passionately destructive and shifted into personal attacks, I could no longer agree with you, which infuriated you even more…

Instincto-nutrition can be applied in different ways with a continuous gradation between taking a extreme care to the odor of the foodstuff or in letting the regulation be automatically done by the stuff’s flavor. The critical point remains the absence of food processing, mixing and seasoning since this avoids the misleading of our alimentary instinct. To deny this obviousness and to equal instincto diet with raw paleo diet in which the food is often processed and mixed is absolutely incoherent and deceitful.

Quote
-Third I was the first here to point out several months before Burger (most likely urged to do so by Iguana) ever posted here that he is right on his Raw Paleo stance and was so more than 40 years ago before many others. My criticisms only have to do with his ridiculous babble about instincts.

I did not urge GCB to post here, I just gave him the links to Alphagruis posts.

Quote
-Fourth in spite of their babble I'm not on a warpath with him or Iguana or other  so-called instinctos. What for? Instincto is already dead.  And I don't want the disappearence of the last two of them.

That’s a blatant nonsense, there are still many humans practicing instinctive nutrition, as well as billions of wild animals in their natural habitat…

Quote
My posts up to now on this subject (and for various reasons there won't be many more of them, maybe only one more later on) are mainly the result of a failed attempt to seriously debate on a scientific level in a French forum with this man.

GCB neglected to answer to a personal letter of Alphagruis who was apparently offended, but GC Burger did not refuse to answer him on the various Internet forums wherever he was attacked, as here where he just opened a Instinco debunker debunking new thread to specifically answer to each of his opponent arguments.

Quote
And I take this readily on myself and please notice that insults or sarcasms are on both sides. But in constrast to Iguana's ridiculous bleatings, I don't complain at all. I don't care to be insulted by such people.

Has anyone seen any insult in Burger’s posts or in mine?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 05:25:50 am by djr_81 »
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Instincto's scientific status
« Reply #136 on: July 19, 2010, 06:02:01 pm »
This is my final comment on instincto. The subject desserves no further comment as far as I'm concerned.

Instincto is one of the best examples, I know of, of what physics Nobel price winner Robert Laughlin calls an antitheory or ideological thinking..

A key symptom of ideological thinking is that it is stated and re-stated at will in such a way that it cannot be tested. By no means. It’s a logical dead end called antitheory because it has exactly the opposite effect of real theories namely to stop thinking rather than stimulate it.

Instincto stance functions as a typical antitheory called upon to « explain away » the occurrence of the complex emerging phenomenon of health or alimentary balance in nature as well as any related  embarrassing experimental shortcoming or observation and legitimize at best highly questionable statements and at worse not even wrong ones. Wild animals perfectly balance their diet ? Instinct does it ! My diet doesn’t cure me or makes me ill ? Wicked or denaturated instinct is at work ! Our organism’s nutritional needs are complex and hardly known ? Instinct manages it ! Our organism needs a specific herb to cure it ? Instinct makes him to find it  etc  etc

-If ones tries to put on test of logical consistency any of Burger’s specific « theoretical » considerations  such as the existence of « an original biotope our genetics had supposedly adapted to » or the nature of his so-called « alimentary instinct » and then argues that it doesn’t work actually one is told that either this concept is in fact not necessary and instincto is a fact-based method that doesn’t need any theory or/and the « theory » is readily re-stated at will in contradiction with its previous form and usually in a form of the « not even wrong » kind, i.e ; wishful thinking and unsupported statements that cannot be put to test in any way.. Of course even the first alternative is utterly vain and useless because it is false to believe that there is any experiment, instincto included, that does not need theory to formulate it. This is thus itself nothing but a cleverly disguised  antitheory intended to evade the requirement of logical consistency.

-If one tries to put to independent experimental test the method itself and happens to report results at odds with the guru’s claims, one is systematically told that it’s bad experiment or practice  and an endless string of pretexts are invoked to dismiss these observations. In other words only the guru himself can actually « test experimentally » his method and do good experiments ;D

 This situation is of course deadly for instincto’s status as a sound scientific matter. For it means that instinctobabble cannot be independently tested in any way and is therefore definitely sheer bullshit from a scientific point of view.





 

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Instincto's scientific status
« Reply #137 on: July 19, 2010, 06:05:10 pm »
This belongs to the anti-instincto thread.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #138 on: July 19, 2010, 07:47:50 pm »
Was this accidentally locked?  Sorry about that.  It must have been the merging process.
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Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto's scientific status
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2010, 11:07:00 pm »

This is my final comment on instincto. The subject desserves no further comment as far as I'm concerned.

Being given that Alphagruis states to have nothing to say anymore about the instincto diet, this thread has indeed no more reason to remain open. The readers who would like to know my answers at these attacks will find them on the new thread " Instincto Debunker debunking".


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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #140 on: July 20, 2010, 02:17:08 am »
I know, Burger, you don't like this thread.

But whether you like it or not I'm not the only "instincto debunker" so I can't see why this thread should be locked. ;D

Offline GCB

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #141 on: July 20, 2010, 04:08:39 am »

Alphagruis, didn't you notice that this thread was locked by its moderator djr_81? ;D


Offline djr_81

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Re: Instincto Debunking Thread
« Reply #142 on: July 20, 2010, 06:06:02 am »
But whether you like it or not I'm not the only "instincto debunker" so I can't see why this thread should be locked. ;D

Because both sides have degenerated to personal insults. You're beating a dead horse and that's all.
While there is dissent as to the validity of Instincto I feel we can all agree that our Instincto members do eat a raw paleo diet and their experiences in this realm, regardless of what drives did or did not urge them to eat what they did, are a valuable tool to this community as a whole. Let's be civil folks.

For the record I could care less about this topic and have no opinions on it nor will I "choose a side".
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