Author Topic: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??  (Read 95045 times)

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Offline rawlion

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2010, 11:51:02 pm »
Why are you still doing ZC when you report nothing but problems from it and regard it as a "paleo fantasy"?
Well, you are right, it has come too far and some radical changes are needed.

Do you mean you're doing pure ZC and avoiding even liver and egg whites?
Yes, mostly ZC.

And why are you eating ZC while arguing for cooked tubers?
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Offline actionhero

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #151 on: July 26, 2010, 12:14:44 am »
Does this Matt Stone guy even eat raw meat? If you can't even tell the difference between raw meat and cooked meat then what the hell are going around telling people to eat cooked potatoes, rice or grains. If you don't do well on RZC/VLC then try normal RPD with predominantly fruit and raw meat. If you don't do well on fruit try raw honey or raw milk for some carbs. Going back to cooked tubers, rice and grains is surely a step back in the wrong direction. I mean if RPD can't heal you why do you think semi SAD will?

Also I just read that KGH started eating rice krispies for breakfast.[FACE PALM] Well at least he's avoiding fructose-laden EVIL fruit.   
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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #152 on: July 26, 2010, 03:14:55 am »


Yuri, I thought you were eating heaps of blackcurrants?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #153 on: July 26, 2010, 03:56:28 am »
PaleoPhil, I'm glad you mentioned this. I haven't tried eating raw greens with raw meat because of what I've read around here, but I'm going to try it out. :)
Sure, that's a good approach--try it and see how it goes for you, and please report the results.

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At least, just based on thought and no personal experimentation yet, I think a bit of raw greens could make eating raw meat more interesting, just as a bit of raw meat could make eating a bunch of raw greens much more interesting. I loved steak salads when I used to eat them...
Yeah, I eat lots of grassfed ground beef (with suet or marrow or egg yolks), and sometimes I like to eat it with greens because it provides some texture variety and more chewiness--especially if I'm not eating chewy suet with it--and the flavor and moisture of the meat make salad oil unnecessary. I have also found that greens can somewhat ameliorate the bitterness and dryness of overcooked meat when that's all that is available.

A documentary I saw speculated that chimps sometimes eat meat with leaves to let the flavor of the meat soak into the leaves and thus make the meat flavor last longer so they can savor it, as it is one of their favorite foods, along with honey (and these two foods also tend to be the favorites of humans--along with grubcomb, which is probably more difficult for chimps to access, since I've only seen chimps jab sticks into hives to extract honey, not pull out whole combs like humans do). I don't notice that soaking effect, but maybe that's because the blood is drained from animals sold as meat in American markets. I also wonder if there's something more to it for chimps beyond extending flavor.

The idea that meat and veg shouldn't be eaten together appears to come from the Natural Hygiene movement, as described by one of its proponents, Aajonus Vonderplanitz:

"On a raw diet that is high in meat enzymes are easily produced and most any combination is digestible, except combining vegetation and meats, including vegetable juice, because they neutralize the acid fluid and bacteria that digest meat." http://drbass.com/aajonus.html

I haven't noticed any negative effect on my digestion by eating meat and veg together, though meat digests easier for me than veg, with or without the veg. I also haven't seen much in the way of evidence supporting this Natural Hygiene claim, though I don't rule out the possibility.

I though I could express my thoughts regardless of my race, religion or diet.
Sure, you can express your thoughts--no one has said that you cannot--but don't you agree that it's rather unusual for someone to argue for eating cooked tubers while following a severely strict raw ZC diet? Why the disconnect?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #154 on: July 26, 2010, 03:59:08 am »
Also I just read that KGH started eating rice krispies for breakfast.[FACE PALM] Well at least he's avoiding fructose-laden EVIL fruit.   

I have a good deal of respect for KGH and find it difficult to believe this, Actionhero.  Whilst I don't dispute your claim I'd be very interested in knowing your source of this information?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #155 on: July 26, 2010, 04:39:35 am »
Dr. Harris does admit to eating rice krispies, half and half, sweet potatoes and American yams here: http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2010/7/14/i-used-to-think-matt-stone-was-a-douche-i-was-wrong.html?currentPage=2#comments. He reports doing it because ketosis was suppressing his appetite too much and he was "vaguely feeling suboptimal." He also gives good counter arguments, which match my own thinking, to Matt Stone's views and agrees with Matt in areas that I also agree with Matt (except that I find Matt's negative style more off-putting than entertaining, but maybe I'll get used to that, and if he adds future info that is more relevant to my experience I would put up with it and read his blog anyway).

My own experience so far has been more like Lex's and Del Fuego's than Matt Stone's or Dr. Harris' (pretty much the opposite of Matt's). I tried unflavored, unsweetened rice cakes, cooked tubers and pastured ghee in the past and didn't do well with any of those. Plus, my more recent experiments with upping fruit again also didn't go well. Still, I'd like to see if carbs might help boost my bulking further beyond what I achieved with ZC, but unfortunately, it's very difficult to get carb intake above a few percent a day if one doesn't eat the above foods--which is probably a major reason why KGH eats them. What I've been doing recently is limiting fruits to small handfuls eaten with fat once or twice a week and eating some veggies that contain some carbs (though not much), like cabbage, ginger, mixed greens, etc. Another issue I face is that I don't like the taste of many veggies. Yet another problem is that I'm liking egg whites less and less and fat more and more so that I usually just eat the yolks now--thus eliminating another source of carbs. On the bright side, liver tastes better to me, so I'm eating more of that and maybe that should be my focus.

I'm in a sort of catch-22 situation where I'm naturally lean and undermuscled but the cooked tubers, dairy and rice that Matt and KGH and others suggest for avoiding starvation mode and bulking up don't work well for me. I'm interested in other suggestions on this. I'm also trying to keep at the bulking exercises like squats and dead lifts and trying to get more sleep.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 04:50:56 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #156 on: July 26, 2010, 06:06:07 am »
The yolk has 5x as many carbs as the white 3.5% vs .7%.

I wish Dr. Harris and others would be upfront about their consumption. I feel as though they are purposefully hiding info. At least to me it does not feel genuine.  Perhaps others disagree?

Phil, have you ever monitored calories for any length of time? Have you ever experimented with overeating (while vlc) and monitoring your weight? It does seem at the least somewhat troublesome to me that you are 5'11 135 with some belly flab. Did you gain any weight when eating significant amounts of fruit? It would be likely that you gain a little bit of water weight with some carb consumption. I think you make an interesting case with such a low body-weight and perhaps poor absorption of calories, though otherwise in good health as reported. If you aren't gaining weight with excessive calories then it might be useful to measure the calorie content of your stool to see how much is passing through you. Maybe you have some huge parasites eating all your food?

I don't have any suggestions but have lots of questions so hopefully you can get to the bottom of this.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #157 on: July 26, 2010, 07:42:09 am »
The yolk has 5x as many carbs as the white 3.5% vs .7%.
Cool, thanks.

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I wish Dr. Harris and others would be upfront about their consumption. I feel as though they are purposefully hiding info. At least to me it does not feel genuine.  Perhaps others disagree?
He seems honest to me. I think he probably either just recently introduced the rice krispies or didn't think it was necessary to report them, since he had already reported eating other technically nonPaleo foods like half and half and cooked tubers and many Paleo dieters think of rice as being relatively benign (as I once did until I cut rice cakes back out of my diet and fared better--though I'll still occasionally eat some rice if it's mixed in with something else at a restaurant or friend's house).

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Phil, have you ever monitored calories for any length of time? Have you ever experimented with overeating (while vlc) and monitoring your weight? It does seem at the least somewhat troublesome to me that you are 5'11 135 with some belly flab.
Yes, I do put on weight when I overeat, even on ZC, despite the claims at ZIOH. However, I do tend to hit a plateau at a little over 140 lbs and then I lose weight rather easily if I don't keep at it. The ZIOH claim re: that would be that I'm falling back to my natural weight at 130-135 (which is where I ranged between the ages of 18-30). However, I think nearly everyone (except maybe Tyler and Katelyn) will agree that my weight would be considered overly thin for my height. I've seen people criticize Ray Audette for being too thin and I'm thinner than him.

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Did you gain any weight when eating significant amounts of fruit?
Early on in my heavy-carb-eating days I did put on a lot of weight and reached 179 lbs, possibly more. However, I got sicker and sicker and very flabby, with a belly bulging out over my pants, so I cut back on portion sizes and tried to follow a "healthy" diet as prescribed by a nutritionist. I became even more ill and lost some more weight probably due more to declining digestion than anything. When I went Paleo early on I was rather LC mainly because I prefer LC-type Paleo foods (other than fruit, and I hadn't discovered raw honey yet). I lost more weight but my muscles became more defined and I was stronger and dramatically healthier. However, I was thin enough at that point that my mother encouraged me to eat more fruits and starchy veg like squashes and tubers to put on weight. That seemed reasonable to me, and I read about how Kitavans and others eat plenty of tubers and fruit and many fellow Paleo dieters claimed these foods were good. However, as I gradually ate more of these foods to try to bulk up and fit in, my symptoms gradually started to worsen again. Instead of gaining weight, I lost more and fell to my lowest weight ever. At the time I wrote off my initial amazing improvements followed by gradual increase of some symptoms to initial relief to my immune system followed by a return of some immune system sensitivity and saw it as a sort of normal drop to a plateau. But the symptoms continued to worsen, so I started to search for solutions and I thought back to what I was eating when I was doing well. To summarize--cutting down on carbs again produced the greatest benefits.

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Maybe you have some huge parasites eating all your food?
I haven't seen any evidence of parasites in my stools and Tyler actually indicated that parasites don't have much effect on weight or other issues in someone eating RPD. I actually wonder whether helminthic therapy would help calm my immune system further and thus maybe help me put on weight, but my guess is that I am more in need of beneficial gut bacteria than beneficial parasites, as I have a lifelong history of GI problems and I was given multiple doses of antibiotics for cystic acne and UTI's by misguided physicians.

The only raw Paleo foods I've seen that provide more than 5% of calories as carbs are fruits, honey and one report on beef liver (it said 12%--others said 0-4%). Are there any others?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline pioneer

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #158 on: July 26, 2010, 10:08:01 am »
Does this Matt Stone guy even eat raw meat? If you can't even tell the difference between raw meat and cooked meat then what the hell are going around telling people to eat cooked potatoes, rice or grains. If you don't do well on RZC/VLC then try normal RPD with predominantly fruit and raw meat. If you don't do well on fruit try raw honey or raw milk for some carbs. Going back to cooked tubers, rice and grains is surely a step back in the wrong direction. I mean if RPD can't heal you why do you think semi SAD will?

Also I just read that KGH started eating rice krispies for breakfast.[FACE PALM] Well at least he's avoiding fructose-laden EVIL fruit.   

People generally have this mentality because whatever malady or sickness they have, they expect to find some miracle diet to immediately cure it. Curing/ Healing takes time and some people cant wait even a year for that. People are just impatient.
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Offline pioneer

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #159 on: July 26, 2010, 10:14:53 am »
Still, I'd like to see if carbs might help boost my bulking further beyond what I achieved with ZC, but unfortunately, it's very difficult to get carb intake above a few percent a day if one doesn't eat the above foods--which is probably a major reason why KGH eats them.

You're a smart guy, but trust me, trying to gain muscle by carbing up is not the answer. All that does is make people appear to have more muscle when all they really have is a bigger gut, more water weight, and more glycogen. I am against the notion of trying to put on muscle through insulin. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body yes, but it doesnt mean it is the best way to go about it. I have never gained more muscle in my life when I started eating kilos of raw red meat every day. I just started eating mostly meat and very little coconut and honey and my gains took off. I think Im a natural carnivore. I digress, however dont try to gain muscle through glycogen and insulin, you want lean muscle with raw testosterone. Hey, if all else fails, eat testicles.
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #160 on: July 26, 2010, 02:58:12 pm »
Yuri, I thought you were eating heaps of blackcurrants?

That had to be ended right on the second day as fruits/berries hurt the teeth too much.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #161 on: July 26, 2010, 04:05:03 pm »
Dr. Harris does admit to eating rice krispies, half and half, sweet potatoes and American yams here: http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2010/7/14/i-used-to-think-matt-stone-was-a-douche-i-was-wrong.html?currentPage=2#comments. He reports doing it because ketosis was suppressing his appetite too much and he was "vaguely feeling suboptimal." He also gives good counter arguments, which match my own thinking, to Matt Stone's views and agrees with Matt in areas that I also agree with Matt (except that I find Matt's negative style more off-putting than entertaining, but maybe I'll get used to that, and if he adds future info that is more relevant to my experience I would put up with it and read his blog anyway).

Thanks for the link PP.  That's a useful blog that I wasn't aware of.  I need to go back and read it again as I've so far only skimmed it at 2am this morning.  Whilst I do appreciate his honesty, I must say, I'm rather disappointed in KGH.  What on earth possesses such an intelligent man with a wealth of knowledge on the subject of human health & diet to start eating such obvious junk food?!

I've been out of the forum/blog loop for 6 months or so and upon my return am most surprised to learn that carbs, cooked carbs and carb loading seem to be the hot topic of the day!  What on earth happened?  What groundbreaking new revelations did I miss?

What I've been doing recently is limiting fruits to small handfuls eaten with fat once or twice a week and eating some veggies that contain some carbs (though not much), like cabbage, ginger, mixed greens, etc.

Ginger, garlic, greens etc are probably fine to add if you have no issues with these foods but, of course, aren't going to help with bulking up.  I consume these myself in small quantities and am contemplating re-introducing homemade sauerkraut again for it's celebrated digestive benefits.  I'm not sure introducing cabbage to one's diet in other forms is a good idea, however.

I'm staggered by your weight gain difficulties PP and had no idea this was such an issue for you.  But, like pioneer, I don't think looking to carbs is going to provide you with a healthy solution.  You have a bright and investigative mind and I'm sure you'll eventually discover the right path for yourself.  But, in my humble opinion, I think your own health & dietary history along with a pre-disposed genetic inheritance are probably at the root of it along with some ongoing digestive/assimilative issues (stomach acid, liver/biliary blockages, parasites/flukes, candida, physical issues eg hernia, damaged villi etc).

Please excuse my lack of current awareness but, besides the weight issue, did you run into other problems on ZC/VLC?  What was the motivation behind a move towards cooked carbs?  Where does all of the research and knowledge on cooked foods, as often quoted by Tyler, fit into your thoughts on this?  Again, I've obviously missed some important information in my absence but why do you think even raw paleo carbs (eggs, liver etc) are what's required?

You sound as though you're on the right lines now looking at ways to improve your GI capabilities.  It may just require great patience on a RPD if there's extensive damage requiring healing.

Good luck!
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #162 on: July 26, 2010, 04:55:14 pm »
If you don't do well on RZC/VLC then try normal RPD with predominantly fruit and raw meat. If you don't do well on fruit try raw honey or raw milk for some carbs. Going back to cooked tubers, rice and grains is surely a step back in the wrong direction.

Why do you think that RAW fruits or honey are superior to COOKED starches (i.e. buckwheat)?
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Offline actionhero

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #163 on: July 26, 2010, 07:03:14 pm »
Why do you think that RAW fruits or honey are superior to COOKED starches (i.e. buckwheat)?

Where do cooked starches grow? The very notion that you have to alter them in such a drastic way tells us that they are not meant for human consumption. On a healthy body you will know what does a body good and what not. Anything cooked does NOT do a body good. You'll survive on it but never thrive.

What on earth possesses such an intelligent man with a wealth of knowledge on the subject of human health & diet to start eating such obvious junk food?!

That's what you get when you believe more in data on paper than in your own experience of reality. Let KGH do raw paleo for one month and he'll have a different story to tell. But he probably won't. All the research says fructose is metabolic poison therefore fruit is nothing more than candy from trees.   
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 07:22:34 pm by actionhero »
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Offline cliff

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #164 on: July 26, 2010, 10:05:22 pm »
Why do you think that RAW fruits or honey are superior to COOKED starches (i.e. buckwheat)?

Look at the nutrition for 100g of buckwheat then compare it to 100g of any fruit.  That's why fruit is superior, honeys superior imo because its more paleo and much easier to digest

Offline rawlion

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #165 on: July 26, 2010, 10:43:36 pm »
Look at the nutrition for 100g of buckwheat then compare it to 100g of any fruit.  That's why fruit is superior.
So yes, you should have checked the nutrients, antinutrients/toxins, and fructose levels before posting this.
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Offline cliff

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #166 on: July 26, 2010, 10:58:42 pm »
So yes, you should have checked the nutrients, antinutrients/toxins, and fructose levels before posting this.

Fruits don't contain anti nutrients(buckwheat does), the nutrition of most fruits is superior to buckwheat and more suited towards human physiology.  Why would fructose levels matter?  Fructose is fruit sugar, nothing bad with the unrefined amount in fruits.

Explain to us how fruit is not superior to buckwheat please

lets not forget buckwheat is a seed, i.e. not paleo.

Offline rawlion

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #167 on: July 26, 2010, 11:24:16 pm »
Although surfing the Internet is NOT paleo, I highly recommend using this website for nutrient and this for antinutrient search.
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Offline miles

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #168 on: July 26, 2010, 11:50:45 pm »
Why would a ripe fruit have significant anti-nutrients in the meat? The fruit-bearer 'wants' you to eat the fruit-meat when it's ripe... Anti-nutrients don't taste nice.
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Offline pioneer

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #169 on: July 27, 2010, 12:12:57 am »
rawlion, I think your right about some things, but wrong about others. First off, thanks for giving that first site, I will be using that now, unless I find that it is inaccurate. Second, where are the antinutrient databases at WHfoods. Third, I've been on WHfoods many times and it is an anti paleo and RPD website. It touts that grains are good and red meat will give you heart disease and saturated fat will kill you. This is just downright stupid information even for cooked red meat and fat. Raw red meat and fat will never give one problems. I dont know how you could think buckwheat is better than fruit though. First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt buckwheat an Asian plant and only comes from asia. Last time I checked you or I werent Asian so we wouldnt even have access to it until trade began about 1000 years ago. I'll admit, out off all the grains/ seeds, it is one of the least harmful, but it is still a grain. As many of us are starting to find out, seeds are very estrogenic, and that is obviously a dead giveaway that it is not meant to be eaten by both men and women. Excess estrogen gives men testosterone and reproductive problems, and in women it gives reproductive and fibrosis problems. Think about it, seeds are little uterises. Eating pollen would be a better choice since it is pro testosterone and in chinese medicine they have been using bee and pine pollen for thousands of years.

I'm sure you know by now that there are a vast amount of antinutrients and anti reproductive agents in grains and seeds such as enzyme inhibitors, lectins, trypsin inhibitors, lignans, estrogen, and more. ANd thats just if they're raw. Cook them and you've got AGE's, Heterocyclic Amines, Lipid Peroxides, and many other carcinogens as well. There is a whole wealth of problems with grains and seeds so I advise you all to stay away. Hell, even my doctor knows this(I have a cool doctor). He tells all his patients to stay away from all grains and seeds period. When I first went to him a year ago, I had a copper deficiency that was offsetting my iron absorption and utilization as well, because copper and iron work together. I had this deficiency because I was eating too many nuts. Nuts are high in zinc and most times low in copper. In other words I was eating so much zinc that it was offsetting copper. SO my doc told me to not consume nuts at all and guess what, within a month my malabsorption of iron was gone and my copper level went up. By the way many people dont realize this but nuts are seeds, and vise versa.

It is quite clear that nuts, seeds, legumes, and grains do not provide the right micronutrient values or ratios for human consumption.

We were put on this earth to eat a specific diet. It just so happens that meat and meat fat has all the right ratios of micronutrients and can never give us deficiencies. I believe fruit has this as well, but I havnt done my research on this.

rawlion, you are right about fructose being like poison though. No, Im not saying that fruit is unnatural to eat, but in nature we would never have access to much of it. Thats what mother nature intended. We werent meant to have access to a lot of fruit every day, in fact most of the time it was seasonal. This video shows how fructose was a small part of our diet hundreds of years ago, but now it is a huge part of our diet causing an array of issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chXCvduiAbs
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #170 on: July 27, 2010, 02:50:57 am »
Most fruits, just like the vegetables, contain hefty amounts of antinutrients. This FAQ covers the most common ones, such as oxalates, goitrogenic substances, allergens, purines , pesticide residues, and nightshades.

Buckwheat is neither grain nor seed. Its a starchy fruit believe it or not.

But ZC, VLC, and LC don't work for everyone. The least toxic carb, the unheated honey, contains 50% of fructose.

The question remains if SUGAR, even RAW, is superior to COOKED STARCH...
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Offline pioneer

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #171 on: July 27, 2010, 03:27:29 am »
In my opinion, sugar in general is not good, either cooked or raw. It is not even a comparison though that cooked starches are the worst. The amount of carcinogens in cooked starches are astronomical, people say cooked meat is bad, cooked starches are way worse. AV even says they are the worst.

The oxalate arguement is always humorous to me as most plant matter either fruit or vegetable either has oxalates or readily converts to oxalates in the body. Even the vitamin c in raw meat converts to oxalates I believe. So what is the solution to that, not eating at all? IMO I think the oxalate theory is bullshit and only a few very rare conditions are known to be relieved by oxalate restriction. If you're worried about oxalates then you better give up all plant matter and eat a strictly meat diet.

I did not know that buckwheat was a fruit, but that doesnt expel the fact that the flours went under processing at high temperatures. If you're going to eat buckwheat, eat the whole plant.

The pesticide residue problem can be solved by simply organic or growing your own veggies like I do. There are allergens in almost everything, but only certain ones affect people and it is true that you can cure allergies. Most people are allergic to gluten and many to maize. Meat doesnt have allergens so you're safe there. Do you think that there are no buckwheat or cooked starch allergies? Buckwheat is very allergenic in Asia where it is widely consumed, check this http://www.allallergy.net/fapaidfind.cfm?cdeoc=199

Also, I dont think I really understand your last question. Most cooked starches are either sugar outside the body to begin with, or rapidly convert to sugar inside the body. Most cooked starches spike your insulin so this is indicative of simple sugar. Yes some fruits spike insulin as well. I guess what I am saying is cooked starches = sugar, so your question doesnt make sense.
People generally refer carbs to being seperate from simple sugar. The truth is carbs are sugar and vise versa, period. The only difference is how fast they get into the bloodstream. After all, its not like carbs and sugar are different molecules, they are by nature both COH.
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Offline cliff

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #172 on: July 27, 2010, 03:46:16 am »
Most fruits, just like the vegetables, contain hefty amounts of antinutrients. This FAQ covers the most common ones, such as oxalates, goitrogenic substances, allergens, purines , pesticide residues, and nightshades.

Certain fruits contain oxalates probably in small quantities as oxalate is most concentrated in leaves/stems.  If your afraid of the insignificant amount in berries and certain fruits then avoid those fruits.  I would probably avoid the oxalate containing fruits anyways because there pretty acid when under ripe which most will be if store bought

Buckwheat is neither grain nor seed. Its a starchy fruit believe it or not.

Buckwheat is a seed, at least the part you eat is.  Its a fruit in the sense that nut is a fruit but its a seed

But ZC, VLC, and LC don't work for everyone. The least toxic carb, the unheated honey, contains 50% of fructose.

Then eat honey?  Are you afraid the fructose will kill you?  If you can't tolerate fruits or honey and need carbs I guess your only option is starch

he question remains if SUGAR, even RAW, is superior to COOKED STARCH...

Starch is sugar?  It doesn't matter if you eat buckwheat, potatoes, candy bars or fruit its all gonna be turned into the same thing in your body for the most part.

Offline michaelwh

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #173 on: July 27, 2010, 04:28:45 am »
Then eat honey?  Are you afraid the fructose will kill you?  If you can't tolerate fruits or honey and need carbs I guess your only option is starch

There is another option -- fresh raw milk. If you're not allergic to it, then it's probably going to be much healthier for you than cooked starch. It contains no fructose, and since the carbs are balanced with fat and protein, they won't spike insulin as much as fruit/honey/starch.

Offline cliff

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #174 on: July 27, 2010, 04:36:28 am »
There is another option -- fresh raw milk. If you're not allergic to it, then it's probably going to be much healthier for you than cooked starch. It contains no fructose, and since the carbs are balanced with fat and protein, they won't spike insulin as much as fruit/honey/starch.

Then you have to deal with the problems of dairy which are far worse then moderate amounts of fruit sugar(imo).

Another tip that can help if your intolerant to carbs, only eat them after a workout or physical exercise.  This should help

 

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