Author Topic: What's your idea of a perfect society?  (Read 39725 times)

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Offline majormark

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What's your idea of a perfect society?
« on: September 01, 2010, 04:53:13 am »

I've been thinking about this lately and I'd like to know how would you envision a perfect society. One that would best integrate raw diets.

What do you think about a libertarian society?

It seems that we need to come up with a way of organization or start changing something for the better, because sooner or later all these food regulations and standards based on bacteria phobia may limit our choices more than we would like to admit. I mean most people would gladly had over control over their foods just because they trust government food 'experts' or they just care more about a sweet taste.

Since I discovered the libertarian concepts, I immediately thought how well a raw diet could integrate in such a society and how much the small farmers would be encouraged and not have to alter their produce just to comply with ridiculous government regulations.

Here is some food for thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY

Offline Sully

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2010, 05:14:52 am »
Perfect Society for me = people herding animals and/or hunting and gathering. I guess that would be no society. A society of no society would be ideal for me.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2010, 06:16:57 am »
Let's solve the INEQUITY of this money system.
How did STAR TREK solve their money system?
Such that they have no money.
Something like that.
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Offline miles

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2010, 07:07:26 am »
I think a Perfect Society is a paradox.
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Offline Sully

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2010, 08:16:27 am »
a society where people are happy and social and eat raw animal foods, :)

Offline klowcarb

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 08:26:21 am »
A society in which I am left to do as I please, make any contracts with others that suit my interests, and where I have no restraints on my personal freedom save that which would involuntarily restrict that of others directly.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 09:04:02 am »
A society in which I am left to do as I please, make any contracts with others that suit my interests, and where I have no restraints on my personal freedom save that which would involuntarily restrict that of others directly.

Don't we have something like this now?
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Offline kurite

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 09:31:20 am »
I think a Perfect Society is a paradox.
Agreed. Although I feel bad diet relates to certain societal problems.
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Offline Brother

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 03:28:51 pm »
Don't we have something like this now?

Not even remotely.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 04:22:39 pm »
Those deluded enough to believe in The Perfect Society should read Rudyard Kipling's famous poem "The Gods of the Copybook Headings" which warns how endless numbers of civilisations throughout human history have gone bust as a result of yearning for social progress of some sort:-

http://www.eliteskills.com/c/1460
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 06:55:31 pm »
The founders of the united states we very libertarian and understood that they were considered livestock by their colonial overloads, they were able to earn a marginal freedom(like the cows that banged their heads against the wall were eventually allowed some more free space) People of colonial America earned the limited freedoms provided in the constitution only by the colonials taking over the farm.
Its an unholy compromise that the libertarians were fighting for, which ultimate goal is not absolute liberty, it was only to obtain the maximum level of freedom that a controlled society will tolerate. They believe in the free ranged model humanity(even colonial slaves were given certain liberties) ,and I tend to side with this Ideal. There is a utility that is served by the subservience of the populations to higher organizational power, but we must never allow the Money Masters to forgit that human beings aren't productive in captivity and that we must be given some consesions or else we can and will take over the Animal Farm. This is the compromise that has been constantly being haggeld over since the first manors were established, and people flocked to them like moths to the flame, willing to serve their babalonyal masters in exchange for security and a humble home on the plantation. We the people must not accept the first offer and understand our worth and not allow ourselves and our children to be sold short. Live and expound the attitude that we diseve more than just chicken scratch.

As the farms grow into these huge conglomerations like the American Union and European Union, I agree that the food sources will be more and more corrupt, perhaps even deliberately altered in order to cull and weaken us( just investigate Gm soy and its effects). The loads of old England in the days of robin hood often put bans on hunting for the serfs, while they feasted on game meat(they often stood a foot taller than their malnourished slaves.Even they understood that If young boys were allowed enough game meat into their diet they would grow up so strong ,intelligent and physically powerful to be controlled). The overloads of today's world understand this as well and this is why most public school systems in the United States feed the kids meals that consist of 30% GM Soy(which is proven to make the males more androgynous). In the UK they put Sodium fluoride in the school milk (This poisons the mind). The water fluoridation programs were developed in order to knock off IQ points of the general population. I could go on forever about how we are the Intelligent independent spirit has been culled out of us just as the wild animals were culled off from the breading stock during the domestication of farm animals. The human farmers cant allow for People like Thomas Jefferson to exist, so in order to maintain the stability of the farm they must ensure that people wont be given the type of classical education, and organic diet that produced the Sons of Liberty in colonial America.

 Perhaps raw meat added to the mix of classical education would create a class of man like the Huns who were totaly incapable of being domesticated, so a raw civilization may never be possible without a centralized power conditioning the young to accept authority, and behave themselves

There was a book, Island, written by Aldous Huxley and on this Island in the south pacific a group of pioneering westerners merged with the Free living Islanders and created an Ideal society that used limited technology to enhance the lives of people, and without an evil hierarchy the people are liberated and spend their lives building a paradise were the children are educated to enjoy life and encouraged to maintain an open heart and free spirit. Of course they are surrounded by a world of evil and their Island is threatend by a power hungry colonel who wants to take controll over the entire region and steal the Islands oil supply(this was written in the 1960s) I suggest if you are looking for Ideals on building the perfect society you give this book a read, It really helped my Faith in humanity. The island people ate a lot of fish and I am sure they wouldn't mind people eatting raw meat.

The book opens with a quote by Aristotle,"when framing the Ideal we may assume as we wish but should avoid impossibilities"
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 08:01:58 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline majormark

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 08:49:03 pm »
sabertooth,
I think Stefan has a video about what you talk about the founders of the united states and how the statist system fails in the end. If I find it, I will post here.

Here is a wild idea of a real progress: what if the state would get its money from donations (like some churches do)?

A system where people will choose if and how much to pay only state organizations that have results and can be verified.

If this will happen on a large scale, nobody would pay to support ridiculous laws or wars. The very essence of a state based system is to impose mandatory taxation and this would be a great blow to its core.

So a useful "next step" in evolution of our freedom would be to at least expand this concept. To support every kind of flexible taxation law where people are allowed to choose where will the money go.

Other politicians will see that implementing flexible taxation will get them more voters and they will try to do it more and more.





Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 09:43:48 pm »
Perfect society?

I don;t believe in Utopia. However, I believe in striving for it!

The best system to my mind is one with maximum individual liberty, a minimum of hierarchy. Very little (if any) real government at any level...only enough to enforce a single rule: You are free to do as you please provided what you do does not restrict the right of another to do as they please.

It's hard to create such in today's world. For modern systems already in place, my simple rule of thumb is this: Pass no law that restricts individual freedoms - only pass laws that increase individual freedoms.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 10:01:16 pm »
Utopia, stems from a Russian word that means, nowhere
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Offline klowcarb

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 04:00:26 am »
Don't we have something like this now?

Absolutely not. I pay taxes while 40% of Americans are on the dole. My money forcibly goes to a Social Security account I don't want to participate in. I am supposed to wear a seat belt by law. If I want raw dairy, it is illegal in some parts of my state. I cannot buy out of state health insurance. In Massachusetts, you must buy health insurance or pay a fine. I cannot choose to not pay for government schools. I could go on and on.

Offline klowcarb

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2010, 04:01:33 am »
The best system to my mind is one with maximum individual liberty, a minimum of hierarchy. Very little (if any) real government at any level...only enough to enforce a single rule: You are free to do as you please provided what you do does not restrict the right of another to do as they please.

This!

Offline majormark

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2010, 05:31:55 am »
The best system to my mind is one with maximum individual liberty, a minimum of hierarchy. Very little (if any) real government at any level...only enough to enforce a single rule: You are free to do as you please provided what you do does not restrict the right of another to do as they please.

This is more like what libertarianism is proposing, minus the government part.
People should not be in the position of ruling others or being ruled without prior consent.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2010, 06:44:56 am »
The Founders of America were libertines at heart, many of them drank partied chased women , smoked cannabis an tried to have a good time, they hated the overreaching authority of statism, and fought the revolutionary war as a way to expell the British empire from their back yard. They tried to build a new state were liberties were guarantied, they didn't build a powerfull central government out of ignorance of what becomes of powerfull governments, they understood the catch 22 that once a great empire threatins the people of the regions of the world the only way to protect the people from that tyranny is to form a confederation that can meet that threat with equal force. Of course once the empire is vanquished there are always great forces from within that are eager to form their own empire. The founders knew what potential monster they were creating, they were only optimistic that the framework of their government would protect the people for long enough to be able to develop a better way. It was the best they could do. They all warned the next generation about the return of tyranny , but by then the money changers had already begun their building of the American empire. Listen to their warnings

History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
— James Madison

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The bold effort the present (central) bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it. Andrew Jackson

I am convinced that there might not be much we can do to improve the state of society as long as the Rothschild's still controll half the worlds money supply, that we all use to build our societies. Don't believe me

Watch the money masters documentary on youtube
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 12:06:03 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 11:20:00 am »
I'm skeptical of all utopias. Here are some relevant thoughts on the subject:

"The Marxist utopia is an appalling vision. Utopias are always hells." --Martin Amis
"[T]he Utopian approach can be saved only by the Platonic belief in one absolute and unchanging ideal, together with two further assumptions, namely (a) that there are rational methods to determine once and for all what this ideal is, and (b) what the best means of its realization are" --Karl Popper
"Over the past 2500 years of recorded ideas, only fools and Platonists (or worse, the species called central bankers) have believed in engineered utopias." --Nassim Taleb
"There is no one right way to live." --Daniel Quinn

I think we're probably better off trying to avoid dystopia than create utopia. Humans seem much better at avoiding screwing up than at creating perfection, though we excel at neither.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 12:44:12 pm »
I am still a hold out for the American Dream

Small farm villa, 40 achers and a mule where Me,the wife and my children can subsist off the free range live stock, and co-op with neighbors for the rest of our matterial necessities. Educate the young to live free and follow their hearts. And If they wish to go out into Babylon then they can allways have no worries because the homestead will always be there to take them back.

I have already taken the first steps, I free range chickens and have the kids gather eggs. I was milking two goats until I slaughtered them for meat, I want to raise the little ones in the spirit of tom sawyer and when they are older I will take them down the Kentucky river on a raft and adventure through Dannel boons national forrest. My boy loves to run through the creeks and I point out all the wild life(he says he is fishing for whales).I am going to give them a classical education. Perhaps they can carry on the torch toward the promise land.

This may be only a dream, but so what ,If I cant escape the dystopia that is encroaching around me then I would rather ride out like Don Quixote And proclaim my greatness and bring honor to the waste land while riding on my jackass, you are what you dream,

There have been good societies of people who have lived that type of dream I hold as an Ideal, they were called the vagabonds and gypsies, their camps were often full of life and cheer and good company, they were the fringe of society and although not perfect it offered the next best thing(something Real)

I believe our species is tribal by nature and large hive like societies are against our nature so no optimal communities can be maintained within the framework of the great society(cultivate a smaller garden; its much more rewarding than working on the big Agra farm)

I am not a wealth man but I am rich in other ways, (Its not having what you want its making the most of what you got)
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Offline majormark

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2010, 04:30:04 am »

The founders may have been libertarian at heart but they created a government which is quite the opposite of libertarianism. If you put a small group of people in charge of all, that group will grow because the incentive to do that is so great. This has always been true historically.

Here is a video of Stef explaining how a small government cant possibly stay small:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_k93op7_Pc

Offline sabertooth

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2010, 07:27:56 am »
If the government cant stay small then it must be cut down to size
Anarchy is as much of a pipe dream as Utopia, I personally believe that (all is as it should be) and the revolution must be continuous and never ending in order to maintain equanimity. Possibly its all controlled by the stars(can you escape your fate) good society must be found within the calm after the storm and must be enjoyed before the last wave thrashes the new fangeld way upon the poor souls who make a noble attempt at living a good life. We hear of legends of shangral and pax romana, or Atlantis, even if these societies were real and near perfection, they never last, so must they be flawed or at least sabotaged by the jealousy of the gods,(just musing while listening to stefs perspective)sorry for being nonsensical

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure." Thomas Jefferson
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 07:34:39 am by sabertooth »
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Offline Guittarman03

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2010, 09:59:32 am »
Wow, what an amazing quote from one of my favorite historical figures.  Thanks for posting that. 

The idea of a utopian society is flawed from the beginning in that it completely disregards the roots of human nature.  We were borne in adversity, struggle and triumph; not just against nature for survival, but against each other for the best food/resources/women/men/etc.  In an uncivilized society it made us stronger.  Furthermore, this struggle is all emotionally driven, and each of our emotions are chemical survival mechanisms that have been honed over millennia to ensure our survival in a tribal, uncivilized setting.  [check out http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/spirituality/the-true-nature-of-emotion/   for a better understanding of emotion].

Utopian society envisions no struggle, no one with more or less, no fighting or quarrels.  It's unrealistic because of human nature.  The real question is, can our scientists, engineers, and leaders figure out how to ensure our continued survival in the face of a cataclysmic event; and can they figure out how to preserve the planet which gave us life before overpopulation destroys it. 

These are not easy questions b/c they don't have easy answers.  If you don't have the stomach for it, turn back now.  The reality is that one day a comet is going to devastate us.  The reality is that while the planet can hold and feed plenty more people (from a feeding people perspective we aren’t overpopulated), all of those people do things like build cars, TVs, houses, consume resources – which all creates waste.  Toxic waste that pollutes our land, our sea our air.  Waste that kills insects, bees, reduces our intelligence.  Food that reduced lifespan, health, IQ. 

Civilization has created the de-evolution (devolution) of mankind in that people who would not survive in the wild b/c they lack the strength or intelligence, continue to pass on their genes.  They don’t get weeded out.  WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF DEVOLVING.
And we are in the process of poisoning our planet due to overpopulation (the kind that consumes too many resources and produces too much waste).  Not only that, one day a huge meteor will be on a collision course with Earth.  Hopefully we have our weapons pointed at the right target instead of each other. 

So do you see why there may be some people in high places that don’t see any other way than to reduce populations and keep them under control?  Do you see how we are faced with a moral dilemma:  Do nothing, let people have their liberty until we poison the planet and cause mass death and suffering; OR try to forcibly reduce population using GMOs, vaccines, laws, etc.  They’re both “evil” outcomes.  Pick your poison.

To conclude:  for those of you who see utopian humanity as a simple, farming, growing culture with little emphasis on science and development, you ultimately believe that the doom of humanity finds us at a point and time of nature’s random choice.  We can’t go that route.  We have to form society, explore science, figure out how to ensure our survival and reverse temporary inevitable devolution with advanced technology (think genetic engineering) and try not to destroy ourselves with technology in the process. 

I could rant on, but that’s all that’s in me for now.

Guittarman out!
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2010, 03:27:06 pm »
"adversity makes men
prosperity makes monsters" Victor Hugo

Now there is an other option. When the comet comes to wipe humanity off the face of the earth, we could dig in, and form a newer blinder society of mole men that can then evolve to dwell in the safety of the darkness deep within the earths protected caverns.( life will find a way)Who knows maybe there are mole people that have yet to be discovered.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 03:33:36 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline majormark

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Re: What's your idea of a perfect society?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2010, 05:51:55 pm »
If the government cant stay small then it must be cut down to size
Anarchy is as much of a pipe dream as Utopia, ... sorry for being nonsensical

How would you cut to size something that has been historically proven to always grow and get corrupt?
Another question is "who's going to watch the watchers?" or who's going to grantee that it will stay small? a government agency?

I feel that this concept that "government is necessary because people are evil" is more like the "germ theory" that is enforced upon us by, guess who. Really.

The idea of a utopian society is flawed from the beginning in that it completely disregards the roots of human nature.  We were borne in adversity, struggle and triumph; not just against nature for survival, but against each other for the best food/resources/women/men/etc.  In an uncivilized society it made us stronger.  Furthermore, this struggle is all emotionally driven, and each of our emotions are chemical survival mechanisms that have been honed over millennia to ensure our survival in a tribal, uncivilized setting.  [check out http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/spirituality/the-true-nature-of-emotion/   for a better understanding of emotion].

I'd like to know how do you define an utopian society.
How would putting a bunch of people with guns in complete dominance (=statism) not completely disregard the roots of human nature?

I think this very concept, of human nature, is addressed and recognized in a libertarian society.
Think about it.
If there are 10 people, each with their own gun, and one of them suddenly claims obedience from the other 9 by threatening them, he will not be able to get it.

If you haven't done so, I would suggest you listen to Stef's arguments in my previous post and watch at least part 1 of that debate.
I think that libertarianism, while not perfect or utopic, at least addressed some of the core issues of our society.

Utopian society envisions no struggle, no one with more or less, no fighting or quarrels.  It's unrealistic because of human nature.  The real question is, can our scientists, engineers, and leaders figure out how to ensure our continued survival in the face of a cataclysmic event; and can they figure out how to preserve the planet which gave us life before overpopulation destroys it. 

These are not easy questions b/c they don't have easy answers.  If you don't have the stomach for it, turn back now.  The reality is that one day a comet is going to devastate us.  The reality is that while the planet can hold and feed plenty more people (from a feeding people perspective we aren’t overpopulated), all of those people do things like build cars, TVs, houses, consume resources – which all creates waste.  Toxic waste that pollutes our land, our sea our air.  Waste that kills insects, bees, reduces our intelligence.  Food that reduced lifespan, health, IQ. 

Civilization has created the de-evolution (devolution) of mankind in that people who would not survive in the wild b/c they lack the strength or intelligence, continue to pass on their genes.  They don’t get weeded out.  WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF DEVOLVING.
And we are in the process of poisoning our planet due to overpopulation (the kind that consumes too many resources and produces too much waste).  Not only that, one day a huge meteor will be on a collision course with Earth.  Hopefully we have our weapons pointed at the right target instead of each other. 

So do you see why there may be some people in high places that don’t see any other way than to reduce populations and keep them under control?  Do you see how we are faced with a moral dilemma:  Do nothing, let people have their liberty until we poison the planet and cause mass death and suffering; OR try to forcibly reduce population using GMOs, vaccines, laws, etc.  They’re both “evil” outcomes.  Pick your poison.

To conclude:  for those of you who see utopian humanity as a simple, farming, growing culture with little emphasis on science and development, you ultimately believe that the doom of humanity finds us at a point and time of nature’s random choice.  We can’t go that route.  We have to form society, explore science, figure out how to ensure our survival and reverse temporary inevitable devolution with advanced technology (think genetic engineering) and try not to destroy ourselves with technology in the process. 

I could rant on, but that’s all that’s in me for now.

Guittarman out!


The idea that government can protect people of a cataclysmic event (or should regulate population growth) better than a competition driven free market does not seem plausible to me. In the case of a cataclysm, a government would more likely do like in the "2012" movie.

I cannot agree with the mentality of just waiting and pick up bits and pieces of what falls on the ground while losing your freedom of choice more and more.

If we take our raw meat and go live isolated in the woods, than we do not contribute anything to the progress of society and to the progress of ourselves. It wont be long before the woods will not provide shelter anymore. Than we would be forced to fight or to submit to eating canned processed foods just because in the past we turned our face away instead of trying to come up with a solution.


 

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