Author Topic: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?  (Read 378186 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #900 on: November 05, 2011, 11:45:23 pm »
What can we learn from actual hunter gatherer groups, Phil? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Most of them smoke and drink alcohol etc.

Löwenherz
I've learned a lot more from them than I have from your speculations. Why are you eating a hunter-gatherer style diet if you think you can learn absolutely nothing from hunter gatherers who had been doing it for thousands of years before you came along and declared their experience to be useless? Why wouldn't you be well served by less pontificating and more learning?

That's a good question. Many people claim that our paleo ancestors in cold regions had a really miserable life and a extremely short lifespan.

Löwenherz
"Many people claim" is not evidence.

Quote
PP thinks that macronutrient ratios don't matter. That's silly.
That's a silly oversimplification I've what I've said. I've said they're not the end-all and be-all that some make them out to be, NOT that they never matter at all. Some put too much emphasis on macronutrient ratio and not enough on other factors. Neither low-carb nor low-fat is the answer to all obesity or health issues.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:50:31 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #901 on: November 06, 2011, 03:01:40 am »
The mere fact that some HGs did something for 1,000s of years by no means makes it healthy. People have been cooking for millenia, and recent  multitude of scientific studies have shown just how harmful cooking is, for example.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #902 on: November 06, 2011, 03:17:36 am »
The mere fact that some HGs did something for 1,000s of years by no means makes it healthy.  People have been cooking for millenia, and recent  multitude of scientific studies have shown just how harmful cooking is, for example.
Correct, which is why I've never made that claim and have frequently warned against making that assumption and I supported the same cooking example by reporting on the Giant Panda example, which you yourself then cited (see also the text in my signature and icon caption for further reminders that I don't use the approach you're critiquing).

Do you agree with Lowenherz where he made this absolute claim without providing any evidence?:
What can we learn from actual hunter gatherer groups, Phil? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
It would appear that you think that we can at least learn that tubers were the least-preferred of the staple foods of the Hadza from the study that you and I cited and discussed.

Isn't it true that raw Paleolithic diets are not new and that hunter-gatherer diets are the most traditional human dietary approach and doesn't it make sense that we might learn at least some things from the populations and individuals (including folks like Iguana who have been trying raw-Paleo-like approaches for longer than we have, not just hunter-gatherer peoples) in the world whose diets most closely resemble what you classify as a raw Paleo diet, using whatever definition you choose, for much longer than we have been doing? Again, I'm not advocating that anyone blindly emulate anyone, I'm just asking is it possible to learn something and could we use a bit more focus on learning and longer-term experience and thorough experimentation than on speculating and prescribing or advocating for others based on those speculations?

And don't take my word for it. I encourage folks to read something like that Hadza study and see if you don't learn at least a lit bit about something: http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP07601616.pdf

Or if that doesn't interest you, maybe the work of someone like Ray Mears who has lived in the wild for weeks at a time and observed many traditional peoples may:
Quote
The Ray Mears caveman diet
The survival expert Ray Mears tells why we should all be eating like our hunter-gatherer ancestors

Emma Smith
October 12, 2008
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article4919415.ece
Forget those faddish diets: the grapefruit diet, the South Beach diet, the cabbage soup diet, Posh Spice’s latest starvation diet. There’s only one diet real men need to worry about and that’s the Paleo Diet - aka the Caveman Diet - which, in its most basic form, consists of what our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have eaten.

Who says so? Ray Mears. He’s qualified to pronounce on such matters because he has spent more than a decade researching what our distant forebears used to survive on. He has also spent weeks in the wild with nothing more to eat than nuts, berries and lean meat. These, he believes, are the key to avoiding illness and premature death associated with our excessive western consumption of refined sugar and carbohydrate.

Namibia Ray Mears S1E5 part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fB8n8QM0xY&NR=1
Ray Mears on Ju hoansi Bushmen of Namibia
There's tons and tons of info available nowadays and no excuse any more really, if there ever was, for railing at people based on speculations, unless one's only purpose is venting off steam rather than actually learning anything.

Of course, keep in mind that no one person or group of people has all the answers, so don't rely on a single source of information. In that vein, Tyler, you have provided useful advice about not idolizing gurus.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 04:53:22 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #903 on: November 06, 2011, 05:20:41 am »
I've learned a lot more from them than I have from your speculations.

PP,

don't expect sweet comments if you write arrogant things like

Quote from: PaleoPhil
"Macronutrient ratios bore me at this point. Come to think of it, anyone who argues for a macronutrient ratio for the whole human race automatically loses the argument."

Macronutrient ratios play indeed a fundamental important role in many medical conditions, for example fungal overgrowth, epilepsy, ADHD etc.

In this forum I usually report from my own experiences with starches, grains, dairy, grain-fed meats, high fruit consumption etc. to help others who still can't believe (like me years ago) that our common staple foods can be so detrimental to health. And even if I speculate about the diet of our ancestors 10k+ years ago, whats wrong with speculating? It's part of a thinking process.

Please realize that your speculations about word combinations like "must have" are of no use for anyone.

Have you learned anything from any hunter gatherer group? Or have you just read some nice books and articles like nearly everyone else here?

Many of todays hunter gatherers are in a very poor shape and show detrimental habits like smoking and drinking alcohol. Regarding healthy diets for human beings there is not really SO much to learn, IMO. It's more about unlearning. The message is simple: Just eat all parts of HEALTHY animals (raw) and some raw plant food as desired. That's all. Much more important here are our transitory process and everyday questions like where to get healthy animal food in our 'modern' world, social issues etc.

And of course, there are many other factors beside macronutrient ratios. Nobody denies this, PP.

Löwenherz
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 05:33:33 am by Löwenherz »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #904 on: November 06, 2011, 06:51:56 am »
I already pointed out how the lack of megafauna in post-Neolithic times makes any comparison between Palaeo HGs and modern HGs ridiculous. There are many other differences, such as the fact that palaeo HGs were undoubtedly healthier prior to the advent of cooking compared to modern HGs, simply because they were not consuming vast amounts of heat-created toxins. Simply put, modern HGs were often pushed into remote areas by colonists so that their lifestyle and diet was often pretty dire by the time Weston-Price came across them in the 1930s. I gave the example of the Maori, a long while back, if you recall.

In short, it is safe to assume that the differences between tribes must be vast if they are separated by tens of thousands of years in time. Only logical.




"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline jessica

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #905 on: November 06, 2011, 07:12:12 am »
raw TURKEY egg...!!!!
feels like early thanksgiving
anyone ever had one?  very similar in size and taste to duck eggs...totally delicious:)
my favorite is still goose, probably because they are huge and fatty and meaty

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #906 on: November 06, 2011, 07:58:18 am »
To avoid diverting the thread further off-topic, I created a new thread at which to continue the discussion here:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/too-many-pronouncements-too-little-thought-and-effort/msg79292/#msg79292

And thanks, Jessica, for posting an on-topic post that reminded me to not stray too long off topic.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 08:46:20 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline sabertooth

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #907 on: November 06, 2011, 09:35:10 am »
I just bought three turkeys and three rabbits.

One tom and two hens

One buck and two does.

I haven't got any eggs yet, I am debating on if I should eat the tom or wait a while so I can have fertilized eggs, and a few young turkeys to replace him with first. He would make a good thanksgiving feast.

The does are pregnant and soon I should have hutches set up where I can turn grass , water and garden scraps into meat.

Lucky for me I can get free lamb fat so I can still supplement extra fat so I don't get rabbit starvation. It seems like the most economic solution to the current problem of rising lamb cost.




The kids will help me raise and feed them all. Here are the three rabbits. My son named the buck "Josh", and the does are "Gift" and "Patty". I'm not allowed to eat them but I'm going to allow them to breed as much as they like, and it will be open season on the young.





This is my Rhode Island Red trying to challenge my new tom.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline jessica

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #908 on: November 06, 2011, 10:41:41 am »
haha thats awesome
super cute family, what happy little ones!(animals included!)
i cant wait to be back on a farm to hang to hang out with the animals
i love turkeys they are really amazing creatures, do yours nest in trees or up on structures? i always thought that was fascinating
rabbit poo is the best fertilizer, it doesnt burn you can just sprinkle it on whatever you are growing or make a super nice compost poo tea out of it(just add equal parts and water and a little molasses and let it ferment for a few days) and till that into your dirt
hope your jennys lay tho, ours never did and i was super suprised to have this farmer offer me a half dozen eggs today....as well as a job on his farm where he raises dairy goats and chickens and grows veggies....
so i am not digressing, i am chewing on my own saliva at the moment

Offline Hanna

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #909 on: November 06, 2011, 03:39:08 pm »
Would please a moderator put the whole discussion about cooked starches into a separate topic?

Quote
Fruit sugar is very destructive and makes you age faster
If you eat fruit sugar in moderate amounts, it certainly won´t make you age faster. (I know at least one example.) Why not combine fat with sugar as energy source?


Quote
What can we learn from actual hunter gatherer groups, Phil?
We can learn, for example, which wild foods are available in sufficient amounts given a certain environment and which diets are sustainable in the long run.

Two more carb-rich Native American foods:

Quote
Camassia species were an important food staple for Native Americans and settlers in parts of the American Old West. Many areas in the Northwest are named for the plant ....The Quamash was a food source for many native peoples in the western United States and Canada. After being harvested in the autumn, once the flowers have withered, the bulbs were pit-roasted or boiled. A pit-cooked camas bulb looks and tastes something like baked sweet potato, but sweeter, and with more crystalline fibers due to the presence of inulin in the bulbs. When dried, the bulbs could be pounded into flour. Native American tribes who ate camas include the Nez Perce, Cree, Coast Salish, Lummi, and Blackfoot tribes, among many others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camassia

Quote
Hopniss is widespread in eastern North America. It grows from southern Canada to the Gulf of Mexico and from the Great Plains to the East Coast. .... Hopniss was an important food for Native Americans throughout its range. There are probably more historical and ethnographic accounts of the use of this tuber than of any other root vegetable in North America; to list them all would take pages. Hopniss was planted near village sites to provide a readily accessible food source, expanding its range in places.

"Hopniss or hapniss was the Indian name of a wild plant which they ate . . . The roots resemble potatoes, and were boiled by the Indians, who eat them instead of bread. . . . the Indians who live further in the country do not only eat these roots, which are equal in goodness to potatoes, but likewise take the pease which lie in the pods of this plant, and prepare them like common pease." - Peter Kalm, 1749 (from Kindscher, 1987)

"A woman will dig from a peck to a half bushel a day. The Indians eat them, simply boiled in water, but prefer them cooked with fat meat." - Philander Prescott, Patent Office report on Agriculture,1849
http://www.wildflowers-and-weeds.com/The_Forager/hopniss.htm
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 04:32:40 pm by Hanna »

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #910 on: November 06, 2011, 04:44:25 pm »
raw TURKEY egg...!!!!
..
anyone ever had one?

Not yet! I'm curious, do they taste like goose eggs?

How do you feed your turkeys?

Löwenherz

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #911 on: November 06, 2011, 04:51:49 pm »
If you eat fruit sugar in moderate amounts, it certainly won´t make you age faster. (I know at least one example.) Why not combine fat with sugar as energy source?

What are 'moderate' amounts for you? But I agree insofar as small amounts of fruit are ok. It depends on the fructose load.

High fruit + High fat usually creates problems in most people, like candida, blood sugar swings, digestive trouble, diabetes etc.

Löwenherz

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #912 on: November 06, 2011, 04:56:26 pm »
No, it doesn't. High fat and high carb is deadly when it's cooked, but not when raw. At least that's my experience.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline RawZi

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #913 on: November 06, 2011, 05:00:20 pm »
    Eggs can be easy to digest.  Use eggs for your fat, and the fruit should be fine, still all raw of course.  How are you with fruit normally Löwenherz?  The eggs may help.  Try changing which fruit too, if you have the time etc.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #914 on: November 06, 2011, 05:02:10 pm »
    Not paleo, but I just drank some A2 raw unhomogenized local grass fed milk.

I'm curious, do they taste like goose eggs?

How do you feed your turkeys?


    I can hardly wait to try turkey eggs, maybe I should get turkeys instead of chickens or duck ..
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #915 on: November 06, 2011, 05:03:58 pm »
No, it doesn't. High fat and high carb is deadly when it's cooked, but not when raw. At least that's my experience.

It may depend on the kind of fats... Think of high nut consumption + high fruit, for example. For most people it doesn't work.

Are you eating a high fruit PLUS high fat diet?

Löwenherz

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #916 on: November 06, 2011, 05:07:41 pm »
    Eggs can be easy to digest.  Use eggs for your fat, and the fruit should be fine, still all raw of course.  How are you with fruit normally Löwenherz?  The eggs may help.  Try changing which fruit too, if you have the time etc.

I agree, eggs are super-easy to digest. Other fats like beef suet can be very problematic together with fruit, IMO.

I usually keep my carb/fruit intake relatively low. That means for me below 50 grams of sugar per day.

Löwenherz

Offline Iguana

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #917 on: November 06, 2011, 05:42:55 pm »
I ate some turkey eggs a few years ago and since I do not remember any thing special about them, I suppose it was not very different than ducks or goose eggs. I heard that foxes are very fond of turkeys, so I don’t want any turkey in my poultry yard to attract foxes some more. Already one dug under the fence a few days ago and ate one of my hens. Anyone want to come here and help me to set an electrified wire all around the park ? It would be more useful than endless arguing.  ;) 8)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 07:59:21 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #918 on: November 06, 2011, 07:00:49 pm »
Already one dug under the fence a few days ago and ate one of my hens. Anyone to come here and help me to set an electrified wire all around the park ? It would be more useful than endless arguing.  ;) 8)

But Iguana!

Don't you agree with the notion that nobody here would argue against the argument that electric fences are not really PALEO?

And they are even not Palaeo!

Löwenherz

Offline Iguana

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #919 on: November 06, 2011, 07:56:44 pm »
Sure, they aren't !  ;D

Unfortunately my ancestors left the warm tropical places of our origins, smashed the forests to replace them with grain fields, proliferated, killed most of the giant birds, a large part of the wild fauna, most of the sea turtles who provided plenty of the most delicious eggs and left me with hens and stupid domestic geese, so that I have now to work and use artifices to feed myself…  >:

To go back on track, I ate plenty of sapotillas about an hour ago and scallops are waiting for me on the table.   



Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #920 on: November 06, 2011, 10:43:40 pm »
Iguana--what does the orange part of the scallop taste like?  I can only get them shelled here, and all we get is the white muscle.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #921 on: November 06, 2011, 11:18:55 pm »
No, it doesn't. High fat and high carb is deadly when it's cooked, but not when raw. At least that's my experience.

I'm an example of what you say here Tyler. I don't seem to do well with raw carbs WITHOUT raw fats. With raw fats I do great with them - as long as I don't try to live on them - but that might just be me.

That's what I'm eating for breakfast - berries with ground nuts/seeds.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #922 on: November 06, 2011, 11:22:44 pm »
    Not paleo, but I just drank some A2 raw unhomogenized local grass fed milk.

    I can hardly wait to try turkey eggs, maybe I should get turkeys instead of chickens or duck ..

Turkeys really can fly, want to roost way up high in trees and are BIG. They can be a lot to handle for some - so I hear anyway.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #923 on: November 06, 2011, 11:24:39 pm »
Anyone want to come here and help me to set an electrified wire all around the park ? It would be more useful than endless arguing.  ;) 8)

If I didn't have to stay here and take care of all my animals I'd be there in a heartbeat Iguana!

Offline Iguana

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Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« Reply #924 on: November 06, 2011, 11:39:48 pm »
Iguana--what does the orange part of the scallop taste like?  I can only get them shelled here, and all we get is the white muscle.
It's the best part, called "roe" or "coral" but they don't always have it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scallop
Quote
Scallops are a popular type of shellfish in both Eastern and Western cooking. They are characterized by having two types of meat in one shell: the adductor muscle, called "scallop" which is white and meaty, and the roe, called "coral", which is red or white and soft.
For those of us who don't know what the strange word "cooking" means, Wikipedia has linked it...  ;D

If I didn't have to stay here and take care of all my animals I'd be there in a heartbeat Iguana!
I'm also stuck here because of my animals!
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

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