Lactose intolerance

[TylerDurden]

Raw al, you as usual have stated an obvious fallacy in trying to pretend that heating butter to make ghee does not create heat-created toxins. Any substantial form of heating above a certain point, as opposed to mere warming, will create some levels of heat-created toxins. Indeed, it is most interesting to note that butter when heated contains a large amount of heat-created toxins, such as AGEs:-

http://www.diabetesdaily.com/forum/food-diet/48755-butter-just-because-its-l

And, hypocritically, you demonstrate that you have not read my posts since you keep on mentioning the nonsense re micrograms when I have already pointed out that the amount of lactose in butter is actually much higher than that.

As for the raw-dairy-issues, I should point out that rawpaleoforum was initially created as a refuge for the multitude of RVAFers who have done badly on raw dairy in the past. Granted, this is the primal diet forum for the minority of raw-dairy drinkers here, but that does not allow such people to get away with  false "terminological inexactitudes" such as the claim that LI is mpossible towards raw butter or that lactose in raw butter supposedly is only measured in microgams. Besides, the 1st post of this thread admitted the existence of LI towards raw dairy and wanted a poll on the issue.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah, and your approach doesn't sound much different than theirs. Except in the opposite direction.

Anywho, CBA to argue.

In order to successfully fight evil, one is sometimes forced to adopt some of the evil side's methods in order to succeed. Not all the time, mind you. Indeed, it was my original idea to have  the extra forums for Primal Dieters and even  a raw forum for the loathesome WAPF diet  as I wanted the whole RVAF diet spectrum to be represented.

[TylerDurden]

KD, you are forgetting an obvious point, judging from the beyondveg.com website,  that heat changes lactose and casein making them  more potent re causing allergenic effects. This would explain why people react more severely towards pasteurised dairy than raw dairy.

Plus, I have come across a number of people who in the past claimed to do well with raw dairy(usually only raw butter, though), then over time they got rid of most of their health-problems, only for them to gradually discover that they actually  did badly on the stuff, re having minor health problems as a result. I cannot imagine that their raw dairy-related issues had anything to do with a cooked-food past as these people had already had from 2 to 7 years of rawpalaeodiets and had recovered from their past health-problems got from cooked diets, that is, aside from the minor side-effects caused by the raw butter or other raw dairy.

[raw-al]

In order to successfully fight evil, one is sometimes forced to adopt some of the evil side's methods in order to succeed. Not all the time, mind you. Indeed, it was my original idea to have  the extra forums for Primal Dieters and even  a raw forum for the loathesome WAPF diet  as I wanted the whole RVAF diet spectrum to be represented.

I think that what you really wanted was a way to dump on others and make yourself right. Another word is self-righteous.

I think you are watching too many Harry Potter movies.  You are now referring to anyone who drinks milk as evil..... Good grief!

Maybe you ought to take a break from posting. I think that you're "one toke over the line sweet Jesus". LOL

[TylerDurden]

The reference to evil was merely a joke, but naturally you chose to view that differently, since you have no sense of humour.

[ys]

ok, your approach to dairy subject smells really fanatical.  it is pointless to debate with you.  no matter what i say i'll never prove you anything.

[raw-al]

Rubbish. My reason for being anti-dairy is  as follows:- I previously was on other raw forums  where truly hysterical and near-psychotic pro-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way. They would  say stupid things such as that raw butter contained absolutely no lactose, and the like. It became almost impossible for the  those who did badly on raw dairy to mention problems with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element  of pro-raw dairy morons shutting them down.

That is not all of course. The fact is that raw dairy is THE no1 most reported problem food on a RVAF diet. Indeed, one of the main reasons for rawpaleoforum's popularity(vis-avis some other  RVAF diet forums I won't mention) is precisely its anti-raw-dairy stance.

I have not seen any of these mythical people here on this forum and so what if there is. Does that mean that you have to become a truly hysterical and near-psychotic anti-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way.

It became almost impossible for the  those who did badly well on raw dairy to mention pleasure and no issues with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element  of anti-raw dairy moron s shutting them down.

[KD]

KD, you are forgetting an obvious point, judging from the beyondveg.com website,  that heat changes lactose and casein making them  more potent re causing allergenic effects. This would explain why people react more severely towards pasteurised dairy than raw dairy.

Plus, I have come across a number of people who in the past claimed to do well with raw dairy(usually only raw butter, though), then over time they got rid of most of their health-problems, only for them to gradually discover that they actually  did badly on the stuff, re having minor health problems as a result. I cannot imagine that their raw dairy-related issues had anything to do with a cooked-food past as these people had already had from 2 to 7 years of rawpalaeodiets and had recovered from their past health-problems got from cooked diets, that is, aside from the minor side-effects caused by the raw butter or other raw dairy.

ok, well I should have said that is my opinion, I suppose. I understand that from your perspective eating raw dairy would then be only a healthier version of cooked dairy, but I don't see it that way. Either way, I don't think one can then cite lactose or casein specifically as the issue as obviously some people overcome some degree of official intolerance while others are largely self diagnosed anyway and can't pinpoint exactly what the factor is. If the products were merely not as mutated or whatever, and they truly had an intolerance to lactose or casein, the odds of the foods being beneficial otherwise would be fairly slim, and would not take years to be problematic even just in basic things like poor digestion/flatulence etc..

As for raw dairy being long term hazardous (at least in minor ways) I'm willing to entertain that myself as a possibility. I'm just saying that largely when I hear of people on vegan or paleo diets trying some manner of raw dairy, it seems to not only mimic my own beginning mixed experiences with all manner of raw foods, but other people's experience trying raw meats or raw fruits and running the other way etc... I know you've mentioned in other threads that one or two types of dairy is enough to tell if all dairy is good for you or not, but I believe that is entirely unfair, based on my own experiences. To me replacing the butter I eat with any possible ratio of cheese:milk would be fairly bad news, and if I thought that was the only alternative or that it spoke for all WOEs I would certainly be pretty anti-it.

The logic I presented still makes sense to me re detox stuff but its certainly not factual by any means. I just think if I eat an egg and get diarrhea or have poor energy i'm not going to assume I am allergic to eggs or biotin or that eggs are just not good. Even when I can recognize that their might be legitimate criticisms around how many eggs we would eat or other nutritional factors. Whatever is legitimately 'wrong' with eggs, it is likely not effecting my immediate sense of well being that drastically as I've eaten far worse (in fact cooked eggs with the same compounds! ) in my lifetime with no similar effect. I can certainly understand the frustration perhaps of people telling you something is good when it doesn't feel that way I guess, but I think everyone at least should have their own trials without suggesting every negative symptom can be reduced to this or that, particularly when there are known exceptions.

[djr_81]

I was under the understanding that this forum was for primal dieters which means that dairy is a part of their diet and they are OK with that. So I am curious as to why you insist on ranting here about your personal issue. We all know from your ceaseless foaming at the keyboard  that you cannot eat dairy. How many ways do you have to be told this before you get the point.

Ding ding ding.
TD; I can fully understand why you are so virulently against dairy but this IS the Primal Diet sub-forum. Attacks on dairy, other than constructive discussion, should be a no-fly zone here. Much like the carnivorous members have been chastised for demonizing carbs in the Omni forum. 

[TylerDurden]

Ding ding ding.
TD; I can fully understand why you are so virulently against dairy but this IS the Primal Diet sub-forum. Attacks on dairy, other than constructive discussion, should be a no-fly zone here. Much like the carnivorous members have been chastised for demonizing carbs in the Omni forum. 

It wasn't me who started this but ys, earlier in this thread, with that irrelevant claim re cyanide and the micrograms mention. I was not specifically attacking raw dairy anyway, merely  correcting a common fallacy held by pro-raw dairy advocates.  Correcting obvious errors is perfectly acceptable. Besides, the original poster was interested , in his 1st post, to find out who experienced lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy, there was no mention of the silly notion that LI towards raw dairy does not exist.

[ys]

It wasn't me who started this but ys,

yeah, right,

Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.

i simply replied that the amount of lactose in butter can be safely ignored.

please tell us how many people on THIS forum get allergic reactions from eating butter? if it is just you then you should keep it to yourself as your constant butter bashing does not bring any value to THIS forum. 

and second, i do not advocate dairy, or anything else for that matter.  i do not recommend anything, it is you who peddles anti-dairy.

[yuli]

LOL, another dairy argument 
It's like beating a dead horse....
Why don't we just accept that some people can't eat it and some can, and in between there is people that can eat it to varying degrees, wow - that's not a difficult concept is it?

Dairy is not essential, thats for sure, anyone can have a healthy diet without dairy...so who cares if you can eat it or not. If you can't eat it you are not missing out on anything but the fact that its tasty and gives you energy. If you keep getting reaction to eating it just stop eating it, but don't say that lots of people have a reaction to even the slightest bit of raw dairy, I think MOST do NOT have a reaction, except the one thats in their head.

To most people, the ones that can eat dairy, the amount of lactose, or casein or whatever other thing some people can't assimilate, is actually irrelevant. And the less amount of casein or lactose something has the less relevant it is. If this post is addressing lactose intolerance, then butter and cheese have little enough of it that MOST people can tolerate it. And besides those things, dairy has some nice bonuses, its nutritious AND yummi....and the stuff about it giving you a calcium overdose, I don't buy it, unless you are deficient in magnesium or something, or are drinking milk like its water or air....otherwise if all your minerals are in check the calcium from dairy should not hurt you or give you brittle bones. If you eat so much dairy that you get imbalance of too much calcium you're either eating too much, or you are not eating enough of other minerals. IMO!

[TylerDurden]

yeah, right,

i simply replied that the amount of lactose in butter can be safely ignored.

please tell us how many people on THIS forum get allergic reactions from eating butter? if it is just you then you should keep it to yourself as your constant butter bashing does not bring any value to THIS forum. 

and second, i do not advocate dairy, or anything else for that matter.  i do not recommend anything, it is you who peddles anti-dairy.

  The whole point is that the original question of this thread assumed  that there was a real possibility that lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy really existed and enquired as to who did have LI issues towards raw dairy. Already, 3 others , apart from me, have already reported such in that poll, and given that polls are unreliable as only a small proportion in a forum ever participates in a poll, one can be reasonably certain that more have issues with raw butter re LI, but are merely not as willing as me  to be so open about it. And your arrogance in pretending that people from other RVAF diet forums somehow do not count, is typical sign of your bias.


At least, I have shown your comment re micrograms of lactose in butter to be patently false. That you cannot squirm away from, convincingly.

[TylerDurden]

Yuli, you are missing the point as usual. The fact that only a minority are affected by lactose-intolerance towards raw butter does not, in itself, mean that all raw dairy is mostly harmless for people.  Indeed, the vast majority of people join rawpaleoforum precisely because they have some form of dairy-allergy. Issues with raw dairy are simply  FAR more common than any other issue in the RVAF diet world.

As regards the calcium:magnesium ratio, I remember some hardcore Primal Dieters on the Primal Diet yahoo group finally admitting that they deliberately ate lots of pumpkin seeds(high in magnesium, low in calcium) in order to protect themselves against the consequences of eating raw dairy which had far too much calcium in it.
 In our sister  group, the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, I too had 1 guy openly stating repeatedly that raw dairy was oh so wonderful and that he had no allergies towards it or whatever - after a year or two, he had to  finally admit that he was facing hospitalisation because he had magnesium-deficiency as a result of his dairy-consumption(which was not excessive). Similiarly, I have had other acquaintances from Germany etc. invariably stating that they seemed to do fine on raw butter only for them to admit, years later, that it was giving them some minor health-problems.

At any rate, the overwhelming success of rawpaleoforum re membership, by comparison to other raw-dairy-eating RVAF diet forums, does rather indicate that  far more people have issues with raw dairy than AV and others like to pretend.

[djr_81]

please tell us how many people on THIS forum get allergic reactions from eating butter? if it is just you then you should keep it to yourself as your constant butter bashing does not bring any value to THIS forum. 

I do.

[yuli]

Indeed, the vast majority of people join rawpaleoforum precisely because they have some form of dairy-allergy. Issues with raw dairy are simply  FAR more common than any other issue in the RVAF diet world.

Really? Well I don't know as many RVAF people as you so I only speculate, I guess...but what I have found to be very common issues are, thyroid problems, digestion issues, sugar and FAT issues. Just saying... most people get into RVAF due to some digestion problems, and I think a majority of those digestion issues are due to consuming grains, especially grains with meats, especially processed grains, pasteurized milk etc. Most of those issues are fixed by eliminating grains, pasteurized stuff and cooked foods. There are a lot of problems brought up among RVAFers concerning combinations of plant and animal products, or how much they can tolerate, I don't know if that total is less then issues brought up with raw dairy, but to me it just seems like it...also how many people don't pretend not to have other issues that include raw animal and plant foods...anyway, just speculating, in no way I am saying I am right because it APPEARS that way to me  I may be surprised the longer I follow this WOE - or I may not, who knows

[ForTheHunt]

Also what comes to mind here is that how many people here claim they can't eat fruit and that fruit is garbage.

Now does that make it so? No it doesn't. That's why I only trust my own instincts when it comes to dairy.

[TylerDurden]

Fruit is not the same as raw dairy as it was eaten for far longer than raw dairy. Granted, many people may have issues with raw fruit due to modern illnesses, but  it is telling that the vast majority of fruit-loathing RZCers and fruit-loving raw omnivores, here,  both have issues with raw dairy. That means raw dairy causes far more problems than raw fruit as the former is non-palaeo.

[ForTheHunt]

Fruit is not the same as raw dairy as it was eaten for far longer than raw dairy. Granted, many people may have issues with raw fruit due to modern illnesses, but  it is telling that the vast majority of fruit-loathing RZCers and fruit-loving raw omnivores, here,  both have issues with raw dairy. That means raw dairy causes far more problems than raw fruit as the former is non-palaeo.

Wasn't the point. I was saying that people here CLAIM they have issues with fruit. I know why they do and the problem is not the fruit it self.

Not saying the same is for dairy, I'm stating this as to WHY I don't just take peoples word for it that dairy doesn't work. Comprende?

[TylerDurden]

Wasn't the point. I was saying that people here CLAIM they have issues with fruit. I know why they do and the problem is not the fruit it self.

Not saying the same is for dairy, I'm stating this as to WHY I don't just take peoples word for it that dairy doesn't work. Comprende?

Well, in many cases it might well be the veg as some may report different issues with raw veg, for example.

As regards raw dairy, there are so many other issues, other than the lactose-casein angle, such as hormones etc., that  it is somewhat unlikely for any other factor to enter into play such as some obscure detox mechanism despite being years away from cooked diets.

[raw-al]

It wasn't me who started this but ys, earlier in this thread, with that irrelevant claim re cyanide and the micrograms mention. I was not specifically attacking raw dairy anyway, merely  correcting a common fallacy held by pro-raw dairy advocates.  Correcting obvious errors is perfectly acceptable. Besides, the original poster was interested , in his 1st post, to find out who experienced lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy, there was no mention of the silly notion that LI towards raw dairy does not exist.

Tyler,
You and you alone repeatedly start this racquet about dairy. You are so focused on this rag of yours that you fail to comprehend what others are saying, but just keep steamrolling ahead with you gobbledegook. In fact I have read so many of your silly fatuous BS that I have arived at the conclusion that a large percentage of what you say on any subject is HS. (Horses are non-dairy)  

By posting in this manner it reflects on the rest of raw food eaters in a poor light because we unfortunately get tarred with the same brush when people want to learn about a raw diet. Presumably they come to this site and start reading the posts and when they see some nutbar pontificating about how we are all gonna be teats up on the streets from drinking the evil empire's poison of poisons "Dairy" then they might be inclined to say.... "Hmmmm.... I eat lots of dairy and I am still alive, so maybe these raw foodies are a bunch of nutbars".

I am not a pro-anything advocate, I am not a dairy addict or any of the other insults that you hurl. I like dairy, I have no problems with it and like a lot of other people, will continue to consume it until I do have problems with it which pretty much covers how I will treat eating any type of food whether it be raw or cooked or injected.

I have read in other threads where you have said that you are proud of your history of beng on an anti-dairy crusade (your words) and of all the good you have done by posting as such. Personally I observe that you read like an extremist. The crazy old fart that comes on late night radio phone-in shows discussing alien abductions.

[TylerDurden]

The above is rather moronic, a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black, and perfectly  illustrates your own fanaticism re raw dairy and proves I have been right in the past re criticising similiar fanatical pro-raw-dairy broadcasts online. So far, after I merely made 1 or 2 simple factual statements re raw dairy, such as the point that people complain about raw dairy far more often than about any other raw food, you have mindlessly, in a desperate attempt to provoke, pounced on such a statement  without even thinking. I understand that people might get  a little upset about other people criticising  things they are addicted to, but this is just ridiculous.Perhaps even trollish...hmmm

Anyway, as usual, you have been falsely and deliberately "re-interpreting" /exaggerating what I actually said. I have not suggested that raw dairy was 100 percent lethal, at any stage. Indeed, I was the one who originally insisted that this and the WAPF forum be set up to allow raw dairy drinkers a place on the forum. That, of course, does not mean that people can get away with the usual dodgy claims made by some fanatics such as the one that allergies towards raw dairy do not exist or whatever.

More to the point, the whole purpose of this thread was to determine which of us has LI issues towards raw dairy  or to pasteurised dairy or to both or to neither, so your overly vehement slash and burn tactics have no place here and belong to some other thread(perhaps  titled "why I hate all anti-raw-dairy advocates", preferably placed in  the hot topics forum).